Re: [Audacity-quality] Stop and edit on Pause

[Gale A. <ga...@au...>]

Even for my own selfish purposes, loss of "Select All..
if None" would be yet another nail in the coffin for
Audacity being easily usable for what I use it for.


Gale


On 21 October 2016 at 17:47, Peter Sampson
<pet...@gm...> wrote:
> Gale wrote:
>>So isn't it better now to just "do something" for the "nothing
>>selected" case?
>>
>>What other ways do you feel we could handle no selection?
>
> I'm not sure about this.  Most folk, and there are many many millions, who
> use
> other (non audio) applicationsare perfectly used to have to make a selection
> of some form before making an editing command, For example:
> a) Word
> b) Excel,
> c) Photoshop
> and none of these has a "Select all if none selected" option.
>
> So I'm not convinced that we need to retain this option at all.
>
> Peter
>
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Peter Sampson
> <pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>
>> Gale wrote:
>> >Is there a reason I am not seeing why recorded tracks
>> >are not selected?
>>
>> I'm not seing that on W10 - just tested:
>>
>> 1) Set "select all if none selected" to be "on"
>> 2) create two mono tracks
>> 3) move cursor to home => no selection
>> 4) press record
>> 5) press Pause
>> 6) invoke Effect>Amplify
>> 7) amplify applied to all 3 tracks including the paused recording
>>     one, and Pause button "up"
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 5:17 PM, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> If there was a new option for Select all... if none" to only
>>> select all in selected tracks, or even if the behaviour
>>> changed to that without an option to select all the project,
>>> it would solve much of the problem.  I don't see a lot of
>>> regression risk in that because I would expect most
>>> people using this preference to be using single track
>>> projects.
>>>
>>> This would not help the case of recording a track, then
>>> Pause or Stop and apply an effect, because newly
>>> recorded tracks are not selected. Rather than have the
>>> rule to select all in selected or focused tracks, I would
>>> rather that newly recorded tracks are selected.
>>>
>>> Is there a reason I am not seeing why recorded tracks
>>> are not selected?
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>> On 21 October 2016 at 16:22, Peter Sampson
>>> <pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>> > I'be been thinking more about this;
>>> >
>>> > a) I do think that the same selection behavior should obtain whether
>>> > the
>>> > user users
>>> > Atop or Pause and then issues an edit command - it should be this way
>>> > for
>>> > consistency
>>> > I believe.
>>> >
>>> > b) But I am minded to agree that there may be an issue with with the
>>> > "Select
>>> > all if none
>>> > selected" I can see why folk are saying it should just be the current
>>> > track
>>> > and not
>>> > all tracks that should be selected - but does that mean the currently
>>> > focussed trcack
>>> > or is it, when paused while recording, the currently recording track?
>>> > I
>>> > have no real
>>> > skin in this particular gane as I typically do not work in a mult-track
>>> > envirinment and
>>> > I always explicitly make my own selections (having carefully turned off
>>> > the
>>> > "select all
>>> > if none selected" option.
>>> >
>>> > c) but I can also see that changing the behavior now of "select all if
>>> > none
>>> > selected"
>>> > would clearly cause a regression which could well annoy many users who
>>> > are
>>> > used to
>>> > the current behavior.
>>> >
>>> > d) So maybe we need to think about an additional Tracks preference
>>> > setting
>>> > fo:
>>> > "Select all in current track if none selected".  This would obviously
>>> > be
>>> > mutually
>>> > exclusive with the current setting for "select all if none selected.
>>> >
>>> > Peter
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On 21 October 2016 at 01:31, Steve the Fiddle
>>> >> <ste...@gm...>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> > On 21 October 2016 at 01:08, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...>
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >> On 21 October 2016 at 00:16, Peter Sampson
>>> >> >> <pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>> >> >>> Gale wrote:
>>> >> >>>>I think most of us do agree that "Select all... if none" is too
>>> >> >>>>coarse, essential as it is. Applying a real-time preview effect
>>> >> >>>>with one track of two selected, no selection region, shows
>>> >> >>>>this very well. The effect is applied to both tracks
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> From a purely personal point of view I never want assumptions made
>>> >> >>> on my behalf regarding what should or should not be selected.
>>> >> >>> I*always* want to be in control of what is elected for action,
>>> >> >>> which
>>> >> >>> is
>>> >> >>> why I always have that "Select all if none selected" option
>>> >> >>> definitively
>>> >> >>> turmned "off".
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Personally I would be in favour of losing that preference/option
>>> >> >>> altogether
>>> >> >>> and if folk try to effect a command with no selection made then an
>>> >> >>> error
>>> >> >>> message would be raised to advise the user to make a selection for
>>> >> >>> that
>>> >> >>> action to operate upon (but I suspect that ain't gonna happen).
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Probably not, just like we did not want error messages from
>>> >> >> an active Effect Menu that user was paused.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > When we just greyed out the effects (without explanation), there was
>>> >> > probably more reason for the "Select All ..." behaviour, but as we
>>> >> > don't need to do that now, the main reason for it has gone.
>>> >>
>>> >> No. Without "Select all... if none", and if there was no selection
>>> >> region, then all non-RTP effects are greyed out.
>>> >>
>>> >> Not only would we have a resumption of "the effects are greyed out"
>>> >> complaints, we would have "some effects are greyed out,
>>> >> but not others". It would be useless for naive users until all or
>>> >> almost all shipped effects were RTP.
>>> >>
>>> >> And regardless, not having to select anything when you want to select
>>> >> all of the only track in the project is a time and RSI saving.
>>> >> Note what Cliff said. Let's think not just of naive users, but of
>>> >> those
>>> >> who use Audacity for the same tasks over and over again every day.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Gale
>>> >>
>>> >> > We already have a suitable error message for real-time preview
>>> >> > effects:
>>> >> > "You must select audio in the project window."
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Steve
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> Gale
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> Just my personal POV (and the way I have my options set).
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Peter.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 9:42 PM, Gale Andrews
>>> >> >>> <ga...@au...>
>>> >> >>> wrote:
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Peter, it is consistent, but I'm talking about what would be most
>>> >> >>>> useful given the new functionality.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> IMO, we're throwing away information about the editing cursor
>>> >> >>>> and paused playback position which "could" let us make a better
>>> >> >>>> decision on what to select when there is no selection. As I see
>>> >> >>>> it,
>>> >> >>>> it's a specific case of Stop and Set Cursor so we could be
>>> >> >>>> different.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> How far would we argue consistency? To be "consistent" we
>>> >> >>>> might also have to apply any different rule about implied
>>> >> >>>> selection
>>> >> >>>> when paused to real-time preview effects too. But given we are
>>> >> >>>> not forcing a Stop in that case I think it makes less sense
>>> >> >>>> there.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> I think most of us do agree that "Select all... if none" is too
>>> >> >>>> coarse, essential as it is. Applying a real-time preview effect
>>> >> >>>> with one track of two selected, no selection region, shows
>>> >> >>>> this very well. The effect is applied to both tracks.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> So perhaps making that less "coarse" is the consensus
>>> >> >>>> solution.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Gale
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> On 20 October 2016 at 20:40, Peter Sampson
>>> >> >>>> <pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>> >> >>>> > Gale wrote at the outset of this thread:
>>> >> >>>> >>Although this prevents users getting stuck in confusion, how
>>> >> >>>> >> useful
>>> >> >>>> >> is
>>> >> >>>> >>the current behaviour when the user chooses an action that
>>> >> >>>> >> depends
>>> >> >>>> >> on
>>> >> >>>> >>a selection? When we stop we currently do "Select All" if there
>>> >> >>>> >> is
>>> >> >>>> >> no
>>> >> >>>> >>selection, or retain the selection if there is one.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > Actually the behavior appears to be (following testing) exactly
>>> >> >>>> > the
>>> >> >>>> > same
>>> >> >>>> > in
>>> >> >>>> > the "act when paused" state as when trying to effect an action
>>> >> >>>> > that
>>> >> >>>> > depends
>>> >> >>>> > on a selection when in the "proper" Stopped state
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > 1) If the user has made or makes a selection then the action
>>> >> >>>> > works
>>> >> >>>> > on
>>> >> >>>> > that
>>> >> >>>> > selectiom
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > 2) If the user has no selection then what happens depends on
>>> >> >>>> > the
>>> >> >>>> > setting
>>> >> >>>> > in
>>> >> >>>> > the Tracks pane of Preferences for "Slect all audio in project,
>>> >> >>>> > if
>>> >> >>>> > none
>>> >> >>>> > selected"
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > 2.1 If this is checked on (default) then all audio will be
>>> >> >>>> > selected
>>> >> >>>> > for
>>> >> >>>> > the
>>> >> >>>> > action
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > 2.2 If this is checked off then any action depending on a
>>> >> >>>> > selection
>>> >> >>>> > is
>>> >> >>>> > inhibited
>>> >> >>>> > and the commands for such actions are grayed-out.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > Now since this is the behavior that we have always had with
>>> >> >>>> > Audacity
>>> >> >>>> > since
>>> >> >>>> > time
>>> >> >>>> > immorial for such actions when in "Stop" mode then it seems
>>> >> >>>> > rather
>>> >> >>>> > inconsistent
>>> >> >>>> > to expect different behavior when in "Pause" mode.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > So to answer Gale's original question I think the current
>>> >> >>>> > behvior
>>> >> >>>> > is
>>> >> >>>> > exactly
>>> >> >>>> > what
>>> >> >>>> > existing users of Audacity (of which there are many millions)
>>> >> >>>> > would
>>> >> >>>> > expect -
>>> >> >>>> > and
>>> >> >>>> > yes such behavior is extremely useful (especially since a) it
>>> >> >>>> > avoids
>>> >> >>>> > users
>>> >> >>>> > getting
>>> >> >>>> > stuck unwittingly in Pause modec and b) exhibits consistent
>>> >> >>>> > behaviot to
>>> >> >>>> > that
>>> >> >>>> > which
>>> >> >>>> > obtains when one is in Stop mode.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > Cheers,
>>> >> >>>> > Peter.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 8:13 PM, Gale Andrews
>>> >> >>>> > <ga...@au...>
>>> >> >>>> > wrote:
>>> >> >>>> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> On 20 October 2016 at 18:24, Peter Sampson
>>> >> >>>> >> <pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>> >> >>>> >> > Gale wrote:
>>> >> >>>> >> >>Right, but I think many users don't know about the relevant
>>> >> >>>> >> >>useful commands "Stop and Set Cursor" and "Select Right at
>>> >> >>>> >> >> Playback
>>> >> >>>> >> >>while paused.
>>> >> >>>> >> >
>>> >> >>>> >> > I actually supect that many users press Pause, then make a
>>> >> >>>> >> > selection
>>> >> >>>> >> > and
>>> >> >>>> >> > expect
>>> >> >>>> >> > the effect or edit to work on that selection.
>>> >> >>>> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> Some screenshots posted by users show them paused
>>> >> >>>> >> with a partial selection, some with just an editing cursor.
>>> >> >>>> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> Even if they did make the selection after Pause, many
>>> >> >>>> >> would save time by knowing the SHIFT + A and ]
>>> >> >>>> >> shortcuts.
>>> >> >>>> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> I still think Select All if there is no selection when we stop
>>> >> >>>> >> paused playback is the least useful choice we could make.
>>> >> >>>> >> It would be less bad if "Select all... if none selected" only
>>> >> >>>> >> worked on selected tracks, but that would not solve the
>>> >> >>>> >> problem when you record a new track with other tracks
>>> >> >>>> >> already present, because for a reason I have never
>>> >> >>>> >> understood, newly recorded tracks are not selected.
>>> >> >>>> >>
>>> >> >>>> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> Gale
>>> >> >>>> >>
>>> >> >>>> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> > In some cases, the user will have pressed Pause a while back
>>> >> >>>> >> > and
>>> >> >>>> >> > come
>>> >> >>>> >> > back
>>> >> >>>> >> > to Audacity
>>> >> >>>> >> > not noticing the visual cue f the Pause button being down,
>>> >> >>>> >> > then
>>> >> >>>> >> > make
>>> >> >>>> >> > a
>>> >> >>>> >> > sekection and
>>> >> >>>> >> > expect to be able to work on that (and are confused when
>>> >> >>>> >> > they
>>> >> >>>> >> > can't).
>>> >> >>>> >> >
>>> >> >>>> >> > Peter.
>>> >> >>>> >> >
>>> >> >>>> >> > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Gale Andrews
>>> >> >>>> >> > <ga...@au...>
>>> >> >>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> On 20 October 2016 at 16:57, Steve the Fiddle
>>> >> >>>> >> >> <ste...@gm...>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > On 20 October 2016 at 16:17, Gale Andrews
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > <ga...@au...>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Although this prevents users getting stuck in confusion,
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> how
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> useful
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> is
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> the current behaviour when the user chooses an action
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> that
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> depends
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> on
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> a selection? When we stop we currently do "Select All"
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> if
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> there
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> is
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> no
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> selection, or retain the selection if there is one.
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Although it is not easy to know what the user wants,
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > I'd go further than that and say that it is 'impossible'
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > to
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > know
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > what
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > the user wants.
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > The current behaviour allows users to retain or adjust an
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > existing
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > selection, or create an entirely new selection, whichever
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > they
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > want.
>>> >> >>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> Right, but I think many users don't know about the relevant
>>> >> >>>> >> >> useful commands "Stop and Set Cursor" and "Select Right at
>>> >> >>>> >> >> Playback
>>> >> >>>> >> >> Position" or even that they can change the selection
>>> >> >>>> >> >> while paused.
>>> >> >>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> So even if we reason to leave the selection as it is when
>>> >> >>>> >> >> we
>>> >> >>>> >> >> stop
>>> >> >>>> >> >> and
>>> >> >>>> >> >> open the effect, we still need that education, IMO.
>>> >> >>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> Gale
>>> >> >>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > As "we" don't know what the user wants I think it's best
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > that
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > we
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > allow
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > the user to decide, which is what we now do, with the
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > exception of
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > "select all if none selected".
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > Personally I've never been in favour of "select all if
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > none
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > selected"
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > as it assumes that we know what the user wants when the
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > user
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > doesn't
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > know, and obscures the true fact that effects operate on
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > selections.
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>>> >> >> > Steve
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> I suspect what
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> most want when choosing an effect without a selection
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> present is
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> actually Select Right at Playback Position, so they
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> create a
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> selection
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> from editing cursor to pause point. They might actually
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> want
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> to
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> select
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> from pause point to the end of the track, but I can't
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> see
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Select
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> All
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> is often going to be helpful.
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> If they already have a selection when pausing playback,
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> and
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> don't
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> change the selection before calling the effect, they
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> probably
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> don't
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> want to retain that selection, and probably Select Right
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> at
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Playback
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Position would again be most useful.
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> If they were recording to a new track with other tracks
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> already
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> existing, I strongly suspect they want to select all in
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> the
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> track
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> they
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> were recording in (Select Right at Playback Position
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> might
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> not
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> select
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> all the recorded track if it gets latency corrected).
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> If they were Append Recording then doing Select Right at
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Playback
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Position seems reasonable.
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> I think we may be jumping from frying pan to a (smaller)
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> fire
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> here,
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> and we will need to educate in the Manual about Stop and
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Set
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Cursor
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> and Select Right at Playback Position, and that you can
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> change
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> the
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> selection when paused.
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Even if simply keeping the current selection when we
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> stop is
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> the
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> only
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> reasonable choice, I  think Select All when there is no
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> selection
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> is
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> a
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> poor choice.
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Gale
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
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