Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Cancelling Timer Record recording

[Peter S. <pet...@ya...>]

Gale wrote:
>I would assume the "de facto" cancels (ESC and window close)
>could be killed if we felt that strongly. 

No, I'd want those kept for the "sophisticated" user.
As Steve opined earlier - there's probably no hope for folk
daft enough to invoke those by mistake in a panic.
 
 
Nice idea with the extra text - but that would make the button
overlarge IMO - and make the GUI unnecessarily verbose and
clumsy.
 
 
Gale wrote:
>On reflection I honestly don't think the meaning of "Cancel" in a Timer
>Record Progress is clear
 
I toatally agree - that's why I would like it removed for transparency
of purpose.
 
 
Gale wrote:
>Vaughan may feel this is yet more "dumbing down" but IMO our first 
>responsibility is not to assist users losing their audio. 
 
I totally agree with this, we need to protect the user as far as possible
 - and I disagree with Vaughan that this represents a "dumbing down". 
As I pointed out previously the user can achieve exactly the same end 
result by using the Stop and then deleting the track if required - much 
clearer and more transparent. 
 
Peter.

Peter Sampson
Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780
Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299


________________________________
From: Gale Andrews <ga...@au...>
To: audacity-quality <aud...@li...> 
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Cancelling Timer Record recording


I would assume the "de facto" cancels (ESC and window close)
could be killed if we felt that strongly. 

I do have another solution which is to provide more text on the 
Cancel button in Timer Record Progress - It could be e.g.

  "Cancel and Remove Track"

or      

  "Cancel (Removes Track)".

The "Remove Track" is what matters. We do sometimes have special 
text (and a warning) on critical Cancel buttons e.g. when saving a
project with dependencies. 

On reflection I honestly don't think the meaning of "Cancel" in a Timer
Record Progress is clear - it could be taken e.g. as going back to the
Setup dialogue (with or without removing the track, or even going 
back to Setup while continuing the recording).  

A specially worded Cancel button would be sufficient for me rather  
than remove the button, grey it or put a warning on it. We can then 
mount a reasonable defence if users lose their recording.  I know 
Vaughan may feel this is yet more "dumbing down" but IMO our first 
responsibility is not to assist users losing their audio. 




Gale  


| >From Peter Sampson <pet...@ya...> 
| Wed, 30 May 2012 05:19:24 -0700 (PDT)
| Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Cancelling Timer Record recording
> Gale wrote:
> >I feel Timer Record could ideally do with re-imagining, with: 
> >
> >* Access to Timer Record setup while waiting to record
> >* While waiting to record or while Timer Recording, access to 
> >  all the controls you normally have access to when recording. 
>  
> +1
>  
> I am a long-term frequent user of Timer Record so know well its
> vicissitudes and shortcomings which is why I wrote the proposal 
> for Timer Record Improvements last fall.
> See: http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Timer_Record_Improvements
>  
> ==========================================
>  
> With regard to the Cancel button in the Progress box I would 
> prefer to remove it completely.  Graying it out would serve no 
> real purpose as there is no no condition or time at which it could
> become ungreyed while a timed recording is underway.  
> Further there are two de facto cancels: the top-right X in the Progress 
> box and the ESC key.
>  
> Furthermore the user can achieve the same effect by pressing
> the Stop button and then, if required, simply deleting the track.
> Not only is this safer for the user it is more transparent to them.
> I have always believed that UIs & GUIs should be as transparent
> as possible and not do "stuff" that is hidden from the user, "trying
> to help them" to use Koz' immortal words.
>  
> As Gale has pointed out most users won't RTFM so even though
> we have now documented the Cancel button this will still not 
> prevent future users from wandering into the "bear trap".
>  
> BTW the "panic" occurs not because the wrong button is pressed,
> but because the audio that was previously visible suddenly vanished.
> And with further actions in the panic cannot even be retrieved with Undo.
> We can *easily* prevent this. 
>  
> One extra click for the user to delete the recorded audio if
> required is a very small price to pay IMO.
>  Accordingly I have updated the proposal in the Wiki to include this
> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Timer_Record_Improvements
>  
> ============================================
>  
> Gale wrote:
> >And if instead there was a removable warning on "Cancel" 
> >when actually recording, we wouldn't be removing the button.  
>  
> This too would involve an extra click by the user - and I see no
> real benefit or advantage to this over just having the Stop button
> and letting the user delete the track.
>  
> But If we are absolutely wedded to retaining the Cancel button, then
> I would be +1 on this minor enhancement.
>  
> =========================================
>  
> And yes we do absolutely need to retain the Cancel buttons in
> the set-up dialog box and in the "Waiting to Start" box.
> 
> Thanks, 
> Peter
> 
> Peter Sampson
> Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780
> Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Gale Andrews <ga...@au...>
> To: audacity-quality <aud...@li...> 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 9:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Cancelling Timer Record recording
> 
> 
> | From Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> 
> | Mon, 28 May 2012 22:13:42 -0700
> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Cancelling Timer Record recording
> > On 5/28/2012 12:31 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
> > > 
> > > | From Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> 
> > > | Sun, 27 May 2012 19:12:00 -0700
> > > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Cancelling Timer Record recording
> > >> Previously, the progress dialog had only Cancel. For reasons exactly
> > >> like Timer Record, we agreed that Stop was a useful addition.
> > >>
> > >> So out of tens of millions of users, one user reports that he/she
> > >> "panicked', and could not distinguish the differences in meaning between
> > >> "stop" and "cancel" in common English.
> > >>
> > >> Does that warrant removing the Cancel feature for all of us who remain
> > >> calm in these situations, and know the difference between "stop" and
> > >> "cancel"? -1.
> > >>
> > >> "Cancel" means "make it as if this did not happen". Clearly, anything
> > >> that is canceled should not post a frame to the Undo (history) stack.
> > >> And "stop" means "stop what you're doing" but not "throw it away". And
> > >> "Stop" covers the desire to have it on the Undo stack. Standard English.
> > >> Why remove a feature because one person shot him/herself in the foot?
> > > 
> > > The Manual did not have any documentation of the two progress 
> > > dialogues. That will be addressed (thanks, Peter), but since the
> > > majority don't RTFM that won't help much.  
> > 
> > Okay, thanks for letting us know the manual was incomplete in that
> > regard. It's been in the code quite a while.
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Rare as the case might be, I take this as a salutary warning that we
> > > can't assume a user is going to behave with the rationality that we
> > > might. Anyone can click the wrong button, even if they know the 
> > > difference, and even if Stop is the default. If they hit Cancel,
> > > obviously the natural first concern is to restart the recording,
> > > not to Edit > Redo Record. 
> > 
> > This needs to move to the future crayon branch version of Audacity, not
> > be removed in the next release. We've already dumbed down the interface
> > too much, imo. P5? P4? You consider it a bug, please put it in Bugzilla.
> 
> I intend to.  
> 
> 
> > > The point is - are recordings a special case, given they can be 
> > > literally irreplaceable? We don't provide a "Cancel" button on  
> > > Transport Toolbar. If you start a manual recording and change 
> > > your mind, you must Stop then remove the track (or Undo Record).
> > 
> > Not deserving a special case when we have only one example of somebody
> > misunderstanding -- among tens of millions of users. How many years have
> > we had this feature before this one report? 
> 
> That's not the point, I feel. Steve, Peter and I all feel this poses 
> an unacceptable risk. It's my fault that I did not appreciate this  
> before now, and I would feel the same if no-one had reported it.  
> 
>   
> > > Apart from people testing Timer Record, are there so many cases
> > > where you would really want to "Cancel" a Timer Record that 
> > > justifies the risk? If Cancel is wanted, then perhaps we should
> > > have a warning for it that you can turn off in Prefs? 
> > 
> > As reported, there is exactly one user who Canceled when they meant
> > Stop. Do you have any complaints of somebody who Stopped when they meant
> > Cancel? 
> 
> No, but why would anyone complain about that? People don't 
> complain that when they press Stop on Control Toolbar, the 
> track isn't removed.  
> 
> 
> > I think most users understand the difference. 
> 
> I think at least Steve and I would question that for naive users,
> of which we have many. Timer Record Progress probably seems 
> to them more like a recording control. Those don't normally
> completely erase a recording that was in progress.  
> 
> 
> > You have only the one person who panicked, that you think 
> > justifies eliminating the longstanding feature. 
> 
> I'm wondering if you're clear that the suggestion was only 
> to remove (or another option, grey out) the Cancel button 
> once the recording has started? I don't want to remove the 
> Cancel button from Waiting to Record, which I know is useful. 
> 
> And if instead there was a removable warning on "Cancel" 
> when actually recording, we wouldn't be removing the button.  
> 
> I feel Timer Record could ideally do with re-imagining, with: 
> 
> * Access to Timer Record setup while waiting to record
> * While waiting to record or while Timer Recording, access to 
>   all the controls you normally have access to when recording. 
> 
> This for example would allow you to tweak the input level 
> at any time after OK'ing Timer Record setup. 
> 
> It would probably have prevented the issue with this user
> occurring (he would have extended the end time and not
> touched Stop or Cancel). 
> 
> It would also remove the issue of Timer Record being in the way 
> for people who are working on the computer while recording, 
> which seems to be a substantial use case. 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> Gale 
> 
> 
> > >> On 5/25/2012 1:08 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
> > >>> Removing the Cancel would be ok with me too.
> > >>> I only ever let it run to completion or use the Stop
> > >>> button.
> > >>>  
> > >>> I'm happy theat this would mean the user then having
> > >>> to delete the track if they didn't want it.  That's far
> > >>> less scary then pressing the Cancel and then seeing
> > >>> the whole thing disappear - and easier to infer what to
> > >>> do next IMO.
> > >>>  
> > >>> Peter.
> > >>>  
> > >>> Peter Sampson
> > >>> Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780
> > >>> Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299
> > >>> *From:* Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
> > >>> *To:* aud...@li...
> > >>> *Sent:* Friday, May 25, 2012 8:39 AM
> > >>> *Subject:* Re: [Audacity-devel] Cancelling Timer Record recording
> > >>>
> > >>> Removing the cancel button would not be too bad imo.
> > >>> It would certainly be "safer" for naive users and of little
> > >>> inconvenience for others (if a user really does want to "cancel" they
> > >>> can "stop => Ctrl+Z"
> > >>>
> > >>> Steve
> > >>>
> > >>> On 25 May 2012 05:54, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...
> > >>> <mailto:ga...@au...>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Because we treat cancelling an in-progress Timer Record as an
> > >>>> "Undo Record" (not unreasonable on the face of it), this then
> > >>>> means that if you:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 1 Start a Timer Record
> > >>>> 2 Cancel the Timer Record while recording
> > >>>> 3 Start a new recording (or do anything else)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> then the original recording is lost.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This arises from a recent Forum post where someone started Timer
> > >>>> Record, wanted to extend the timer to record for longer (can't be
> > >>>> done), panicked, cancelled Timer Record, then started a new
> > >>>> recording.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I've previously wondered if cancelling Timer Record should leave
> > >>>> an Undo History item. This is a good reason why it should, but it
> > >>>> doesn't help a user who cancels then re-records, or knows they
> > >>>> want the "Stop" button but hits the wrong one. They are then
> > >>>> sunk unless they use Edit > Undo before anything else.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Can we do anything here in recognition that recordings can be
> > >>>> irreplaceable? Possibilities:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> * Remove the "Cancel" button from "Audacity Timer Record
> > >>>>  Progress" - they have to remove the track if they don't
> > >>>>  want it.
> > >>>> * Treat cancelling Timer Record as separate "Record" and
> > >>>>  "Remove Track" actions -  then (I think) user is safe as
> > >>>>  long as they don't undo back to the start then record.
> > >>>>  Potentially messy for the code?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Any other ideas?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Gale


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
_______________________________________________
Audacity-quality mailing list
Aud...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality