From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-04-24 10:43:45
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Hello translators! I found some i18n strings in Gaim which I don't like for different=20 reasons. Of course I can write a patch which changes these strings. But=20 I think it's better to change the strings after a voting from other=20 translators. Here are the strings which I don't like: #: ../src/gtkdialogs.c:100 msgid "hacker and designated driver [lazy bum]" msgstr "" I think it's abusive to call the retired developer Syd Logan a "lazy=20 bum". I think this not a humorous designation. The direct German=20 translation "Hacker und selbsternannter F=FChrer [fauler Arsch]" sounds=20 very bad. So I refuse to translate it directly anyway. Does anyone know, what Syd Logan did for the Gaim project? #: ../plugins/psychic.c:60 msgid "You feel a disturbance in the force..." msgstr "" This message is not bad language but it does not describe what's going=20 on. I asked the developer (Christopher O'Brien) about what his string=20 mean. He told me, that it means: "If a buddy begins to type a message to = you a conversation window appears (with this message)". Unfortunately he = does not want to change his string. So I need your votes. #: ../src/gtkaccount.c:1297 msgid "you can see the butterflies mating" msgstr "" This may be a funny message. But also it does say nothing. It has=20 something to do with the proxy port option in the account dialogs. But I = don't know the exact meaning. Greetings, Bj=F6rn |
From: Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...> - 2006-04-24 11:22:25
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Bjoern Voigt spake unto us the following wisdom: > I found some i18n strings in Gaim which I don't like for different=20 > reasons. Of course I can write a patch which changes these strings. But= =20 > I think it's better to change the strings after a voting from other=20 > translators. Fortunately, "I don't like this string" is not sufficient reason to change it, regardless of who 'votes' on it. > Here are the strings which I don't like: >=20 >=20 > #: ../src/gtkdialogs.c:100 > msgid "hacker and designated driver [lazy bum]" > msgstr "" >=20 > I think it's abusive to call the retired developer Syd Logan a "lazy=20 > bum". I think this not a humorous designation. The direct German=20 > translation "Hacker und selbsternannter F=FChrer [fauler Arsch]" sounds= =20 > very bad. So I refuse to translate it directly anyway. >=20 > Does anyone know, what Syd Logan did for the Gaim project? This *is* humorous in English, and it is not particularly abusive. If your German translation sounds very bad, it is not a good translation. "Lazy bum" is a rather mild insult in English, and the corresponding translation should likewise be mild. >=20 > #: ../plugins/psychic.c:60 > msgid "You feel a disturbance in the force..." > msgstr "" >=20 > This message is not bad language but it does not describe what's going=20 > on. I asked the developer (Christopher O'Brien) about what his string=20 > mean. He told me, that it means: "If a buddy begins to type a message to= =20 > you a conversation window appears (with this message)". Unfortunately he= =20 > does not want to change his string. So I need your votes. This is a cultural reference which most people should get. In context, it *does* describe what is going on with sufficient detail. This is also not critical functionality for Gaim (in fact, I would not include this plugin at all). Therefore, if Christopher likes this string, it should stay -- regardless of "votes". You should choose an appropriate translation for it, and that's the end of that. > #: ../src/gtkaccount.c:1297 > msgid "you can see the butterflies mating" > msgstr "" >=20 > This may be a funny message. But also it does say nothing. It has=20 > something to do with the proxy port option in the account dialogs. But I= =20 > don't know the exact meaning. Of your three points, this is the only one I can agree with. This message is mildly (if even) humorous, but not that great. It also will most likely *never* be seen by anyone (except translators), so it's not really hurting anything ... but there's no need for it. These actions don't do anything, so the precise meaning is not that important for translation. These strings should probably either be removed or the translation markers removed (if we wish for them to stay in an easter-eggish fashion). Ethan --=20 The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy for evils]. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. -- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764 |
From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-04-24 12:02:24
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Vincas =C4=8Ci=C5=BEi=C5=ABnas wrote: > The other thing is, I do believe that Bjoern is using the wrong=20 > translation of the word 'bum'. Unless I'm mistaken, you're using the=20 > word "Arsch" translating "bum" in the british sense, "an arse, a butt, = > a rear end". This is not the American sense of the word which is=20 > meant, "a homeless tramp" or, more fittingly, "a person who does no=20 > work", thus, a "lazy bum" is a person who does no work because they=20 > are lazy. This is why it's a lesser insult in American english. =20 > Those who speak british english would recognize the phrase "lazy bum"=20 > as a mild american english expression. Thought I might clarify. =20 Thanks. But "Fauler Arsch" or even better translated "Fauler Sack" has=20 the same meaning in German as you describe. "Fauler Arsch" or "Fauler=20 Sack" describes a person who does not work because he is too lazy to=20 work. They are both swearwords in German. I don't know a mild word for=20 lazy persons in German. Does anyone has Syd Logan's e-mail address? So we can ask himself. I=20 found this information about him (from:=20 http://gaim.sourceforge.net/contactinfo.php): Syd Logan /Gtk+ God, Pilot, and Designated Driver/ Greetings, Bj=C3=B6rn/ / |
From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-04-24 12:29:53
|
Ethan Blanton wrote: > Fortunately, "I don't like this string" is not sufficient reason to > change it, regardless of who 'votes' on it. > =20 Of course, an opinion of a single translator is not so important. But=20 the needs of Gaim's users should be important for us. What about serious business users? I mean Novell for instance supports=20 Gaim as their instant messaging solution. Gaim is included in Novell=20 Linux business products: http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/features/im.html I don't think that a typical business user is amused about "lazy bums",=20 "mating butterflies" and about "feeling a disturbance in the force" in=20 the user interface of a serious program. Of course distributors like=20 Novell can change these strings. But it's much work to do this for all=20 translated languages and for English. And I don't think that we Gaim=20 translators want to support two versions of our translations: one for=20 normal users and business users and one for playing kids. So I still=20 think, it's best to improve the English original strings. Greetings, Bj=F6rn |
From: Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...> - 2006-04-24 13:34:09
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Bjoern Voigt spake unto us the following wisdom: > Ethan Blanton wrote: > >Fortunately, "I don't like this string" is not sufficient reason to > >change it, regardless of who 'votes' on it. > > Of course, an opinion of a single translator is not so important. But=20 > the needs of Gaim's users should be important for us. >=20 > What about serious business users? I mean Novell for instance supports=20 > Gaim as their instant messaging solution. Gaim is included in Novell=20 > Linux business products: What about them? If they want custom strings, they can take out a support contract and have strings customized. :-P > http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/features/im.html >=20 > I don't think that a typical business user is amused about "lazy bums",= =20 > "mating butterflies" and about "feeling a disturbance in the force" in=20 > the user interface of a serious program. Of course distributors like=20 > Novell can change these strings. But it's much work to do this for all=20 > translated languages and for English. And I don't think that we Gaim=20 > translators want to support two versions of our translations: one for=20 > normal users and business users and one for playing kids. So I still=20 > think, it's best to improve the English original strings. No, you shouldn't support two translations. You should translate the strings as they are, and leave *hypothetical* business users who don't like these strings to fend for themselves -- notice that they don't exist, you made them up. I understand that you don't like these strings, but that does not invalidate their legitimacy. That particular 'disturbance in the force' phrase, for example, is perhaps the *only* thing I like about the psychic plugin. If your complaint is that these phrases are difficult to translate, then I am sorry to hear that ... pick something less idiomatic, I guess. Perhaps we could put in a note to translators in the comments to help them with this task. Ethan --=20 The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy for evils]. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. -- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764 |
From: Luke S. <lsc...@us...> - 2006-04-24 14:55:46
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On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 09:33:59AM -0400, Ethan Blanton wrote: > Bjoern Voigt spake unto us the following wisdom: > > Ethan Blanton wrote: > > >Fortunately, "I don't like this string" is not sufficient reason to > > >change it, regardless of who 'votes' on it. > > > > Of course, an opinion of a single translator is not so important. But > > the needs of Gaim's users should be important for us. > > > > What about serious business users? I mean Novell for instance supports > > Gaim as their instant messaging solution. Gaim is included in Novell > > Linux business products: > > What about them? If they want custom strings, they can take out a > support contract and have strings customized. :-P More to the point, Novell's supported version of gaim has a patch already in existance as Novell wants not only to change some user visible strings, but to force some preferences to be set, to remove some comments from the code itself, and a few other things. > > > http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/features/im.html > > > > I don't think that a typical business user is amused about "lazy bums", > > "mating butterflies" and about "feeling a disturbance in the force" in > > the user interface of a serious program. Of course distributors like > > Novell can change these strings. But it's much work to do this for all > > translated languages and for English. And I don't think that we Gaim > > translators want to support two versions of our translations: one for > > normal users and business users and one for playing kids. So I still > > think, it's best to improve the English original strings. > > No, you shouldn't support two translations. You should translate the > strings as they are, and leave *hypothetical* business users who don't > like these strings to fend for themselves -- notice that they don't > exist, you made them up. Really, of the 3 strings, only the butterflies one is of any significance. Looking at "business users," I know that more than a few tech companies sponcered trips to movies like the Matrix lately. Perhaps they would not pick a string like "Feeling a disturbance in the force" but they really aren't going to object to it either. They simply don't care either way. And calling someone a "lazy bum," is, in American English anyway, of so little significance that it quite possibly even got past Novell's filter, though I have not specifically checked. You realize of course, that if a "literal" translation of these strings is going to cause problems in any given language, you can of course translate them to something that conveys the meaning better. For example, I've been told by a number of translators that the American word "Buddies" does not translate well, not even into British English. Many of you have come up with some other string to do the job. The same should hold true here. luke |
From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-04-24 16:00:56
Attachments:
lazy.txt
|
Luke Schierer wrote: > More to the point, Novell's supported version of gaim has a patch > already in existance as Novell wants not only to change some user > visible strings, but to force some preferences to be set, to remove > some comments from the code itself, and a few other things. > =20 Yes, I took a look at latest Gaim 1.5.0 package from=20 http://ftp.opensuse.org/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-OSS-factory/inst-sou= rce/suse/src/ Novell has no "mating butterflies" because they changed the proxy code.=20 Novell's Gaim package can use GConf's proxy settings.=20 Novell didn't changed "lazy bum". The "feeling a disturbance in the=20 force" isn't in Gaim 1.5.0 because the "psychic" plugin is new in 2.0. > And calling someone a "lazy bum," is, in American English anyway, of > so little significance that it quite possibly even got past Novell's > filter, though I have not specifically checked. > =20 Why do you call Syd Logan a "lazy bum"? I don't know him personally. But if I look at his homepage I don't think = he's lazy: http://www.sydlogan.com/index2.html (Ok, he is a bit lazy with updating his homepage. His email addresses=20 are not valid. :-) ) I attached a list of "lazy bum" translations (current Gaim SVN=20 translations). As you can see the majority of translators skipped "[lazy = bum]" or leaved it in English. Thanks to the translators which=20 translated "lazy bum". Now we can learn what "lazy bum" means in some=20 non-English languages. :-) Greetings, Bj=C3=B6rn |
From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-04-24 19:49:10
|
Hello all! I contacted Syd Logan. He wants that we change his credit's entry. So=20 please respect him and change his credit entries (in AUTHORS,=20 doc/gaim.1.in, src/gtkdialogs.c) Greetings, Bj=F6rn -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: About your credits in Gaim Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:28:08 -0700 From: Syd Logan To: Bjoern Voigt <bj...@cs...> Bjoern If you could change it to "user interface", that would be fine. I'm not really lazy :-) Thanks, syd |
From: Luke S. <lsc...@us...> - 2006-04-24 20:31:48
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On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 09:49:03PM +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote: > Hello all! > > I contacted Syd Logan. He wants that we change his credit's entry. So > please respect him and change his credit entries (in AUTHORS, > doc/gaim.1.in, src/gtkdialogs.c) > > Greetings, Björn I doubt he was consulted when Eric wrote it. I don't doubt that he would have requested it be changed if he had been consulted. Even if neither of the above is true (which you'd have a hard time convincing me of), I doubt Syd, or Eric, expected gaim to grow as it has. I doubt any of us did. I really don't buy that request as a reason to change something that has been there for longer than I have been a developer, though not longer than I have been a user. I am ALWAYS hesitant to change non-functional parts of Gaim that have bearing on us as a group, that are our history. With software, to change it is to lose part of what makes us come to gaim: that element of fun, that element of it NOT being a corporate project. That element that lets us say things as we see them, do what we want, when we want. Be it a little line in the about box, some randomness in our comments (including a dragon, some humor, and even a little bit of text that is rather more offensive than that about box line), or the odd easter egg, we need these things to remind us that this is supposed to be FUN, and that we are not out to conquer the business market. If we had been, then we wouldn't now be in a position to get confused about it. luke |
From: Sean E. <sea...@gm...> - 2006-04-24 16:56:29
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None of these strings are changing. Novell's interest in Gaim is monetary. They make money from Gaim, so money is their incentive to make Gaim do what their customers want (although I think your premise... that "serious business users" require Gaim to be boring). Our interest in Gaim is solely fun. Therefore, we will continue to maintain, add, and mark for translation, strings that serve no purpose but amusement. In the meantime, pop in a German Star Wars DVD and quit taking things so seriously ;) -s. |
From: Duarte H. <dua...@gm...> - 2006-04-24 18:04:46
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From: Clytie S. <cl...@ri...> - 2006-04-25 03:28:51
|
On 24/04/2006, at 8:13 PM, Bjoern Voigt wrote: > I found some i18n strings in Gaim which I don't like for different =20 > reasons. Of course I can write a patch which changes these strings. =20= > But I think it's better to change the strings after a voting from =20 > other translators. I have carefully read all of this thread, so far, and although I =20 agree that developers may perhaps have their reasons for including =20 these types of strings (although in all the projects where I =20 translate, I have never encountered strings of this type), but I also =20= agree strongly with Bjoern that these strings are inappropriate in =20 some languages. Disregarding poor Syd's actual nature at this moment, how are we =20 translators to know that "lazy bum" is a mild joke? It's a very =20 serious insult in my language. You can't expect translators to know what you mean, especially if the =20= string is unusual in some way. You also can't expect them to =20 understand social nuances of your culture. All you will get is =20 ignored strings and/or a lower quality of translation. Best practice in the case of unusual strings is to supply contextual =20 information. Please do so. I have not been able to get any answer from Quy about the status of =20 the Vietnamese translation, so it remains in limbo, but if I do have =20 to take it over, I don't want to be guessing my way through the file. =20= I want to be able to create a high-quality translation. I think we all do, and that makes Bjoern's concerns about translating =20= these strings perfectly valid. from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nh=C3=B3m = =20 Vi=E1=BB=87t h=C3=B3a ph=E1=BA=A7n m=E1=BB=81m t=E1=BB=B1 do) http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN |
From: Richard L. <rl...@wi...> - 2006-04-25 03:44:13
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On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 12:58 +0930, Clytie Siddall wrote: > You can't expect translators to know what you mean, especially if the > string is unusual in some way. If you encounter a string you don't understand, you should ask about it. In this particular case, I can see why people would argue we should change the string. But, what about the case of "Handshaking" not translating cleanly into PT_pt? Surely we shouldn't change our string to work around that. If we had to change strings to make them unambiguous for every language, we'd have a mess. > You also can't expect them to > understand social nuances of your culture. All you will get is > ignored strings and/or a lower quality of translation. Getting back to this case... If "lazy bum" is a strong insult in your language, then don't translate it literally. If there's no appropriate translation, you could translate that portion of the string to the empty string. If you take the approach of "I'll translate everything (often literally) without understanding it", you're going to end up with a bad translation that results in user complaints. It's entirely reasonable for us (and users) to expect that translators fully understand what they're translating. Richard |
From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-04-25 07:32:11
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Richard Laager wrote: > If you take the approach of "I'll translate everything (often literally= ) > without understanding it", you're going to end up with a bad translatio= n > that results in user complaints. It's entirely reasonable for us (and > users) to expect that translators fully understand what they're > translating. > =20 Richard, you say that translators should fully understand what they're=20 translating. What do you expect from us? Let's take a test. Translators and developers can answer. I'm especially = interested if developers understand all of their messages. My personal=20 experience (I'm a software developer too - but not in instance messaging = area) is that most developers in large software projects don't perfectly = understand all parts of the software. Normally comments should help to=20 understand difficult parts of code. I personally often miss comments for = difficult to understand comments. Gettext is able to display translation = comments in the .po files. This is now a long discussion. We talked about the meaning of some=20 difficult strings. Why doesn't someone with write access save this=20 explanations in form of code-comments? The survey: Hint: It's allowed to look into the code. But none of the strings has=20 comments in code! This makes the survery interesting! Please answer in=20 English so that others in the list can verify the answers. 1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in src/gtkaccount.c:12= 97? Answer:=20 2) Why is Syd Logan a "lazy bum" in AUTHORS and in src/gtkdialogs.c:100? Answer:=20 3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c? Answer:=20 4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and sr= c/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean? Answer:=20 5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c? Answer:=20 6) What does ""You feel a disturbance in the force..." in plugins/psychic= =2Ec means? 7) Why Ethan calls the psychic plugin a stalker plugin? "If we're going to support crappy stalker-enablement plugins, we shoul= d at least make an effort to ensure that they don't require C99." (from svn log plugins/psychic.c) Answer:=20 Greetings, Bj=F6rn |
From: Ambrose LI <ac...@ad...> - 2006-04-25 14:22:34
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On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 09:32:01AM +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote: > > 1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in src/gtkaccount.c:1297? > Answer: "You are looking too closely" The context is "If you look closely enough" and the obviousness that this is a joke. I suppose some users could find this somewhat insulting, though. scim users getting stuck with no input and having to switch IME's by pulling down the context menu may be a possibility... > 2) Why is Syd Logan a "lazy bum" in AUTHORS and in src/gtkdialogs.c:100? > Answer: Don't know, but would doubt it as an insult because no one puts real insults into a list of credits > 3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c? > Answer: A TOC server. TOC is an AIM protocol. A host is a computer. Literally a computer talking the TOC protocol, but the context requires it to be a server, and in the DOS/Windows world (since this is AIM) the word "host" traditionally only refers to servers. > 4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and > src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean? > Answer: Without looking at anything, "Gaim was trying to start talking to a server through SSL, but it failed" > 5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c? > Answer: Short answer (looking at my po file): Some kind of user authentication token for the channel I consider myself to fail this question in any case, because I expected to find some notes in the po file, but I did not write down any. > 6) What does ""You feel a disturbance in the force..." in plugins/psychic.c > means? Answer: disregarding anything said earlier here, I would have said, "something is happening" The context here is the file name ("psychic") I'm not a Star Wars fan myself, so I wouldn't know the Star Wars connotations myself > 7) Why Ethan calls the psychic plugin a stalker plugin? > > "If we're going to support crappy stalker-enablement plugins, we should > at least make an effort to ensure that they don't require C99." > > (from svn log plugins/psychic.c) Answer: Probably because it's supposed to make you "psychic", which would "enable" you to be a stalker (Note: He doesn't refer to it as a "stalker plugin", but a "stalker-ENABLEMENT" plugin) > > Greetings, Bj?rn Best regards, Ambrose |
From: Luke S. <lsc...@us...> - 2006-04-25 14:59:15
|
>=20 > 1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in src/gtkaccount.c:12= 97? >=20 > Answer:=20 One of two things, both intended as humourus: A)your network is really slow and you have nothing better to do than look at butterflies. B)You are looking really closely at something that shouldn't matter :-) >=20 > 2) Why is Syd Logan a "lazy bum" in AUTHORS and in src/gtkdialogs.c:100? >=20 > Answer:=20 Pointing out what Syd did and why he's there isn't easy. But not for the same reason that pointing out what Eric did isn't easy. Eric is hard because he did almost litterally everythign. Syd I'm pretty sure did the prefs dialog, but beyond that... Oh, and then he went to AOL to work on winaim. He deserves some grief for that :-P >=20 > 3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c? >=20 > Answer:=20 TOC is an acronym. I don't know what it means, it doesn't much matter. A user needs to see "TOC" so that they know what I'm talking about if I ask them if they are using TOC. It is in that sense a proper name. a "host" in computing software is going to be a server. >=20 > 4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and=20 > src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean? >=20 > Answer:=20 SSL is arcane, or at least, I know next to nothing about it. (note, I'm not reading the source as I do this but then I'm not a normal test taker here either). But a handshake is part of a greeting, part of two people meeting. And it failed. And its an error message. So the ssl setup failed, didn't work. >=20 > 5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c? >=20 > Answer:=20 Good question. HMAC is a silc intneral. I wonder why it needs to be translated at all. >=20 > 6) What does ""You feel a disturbance in the force..." in plugins/psychic= =2Ec=20 > means? I could go to litterally any child above, say, 10, here in the US and they would recognize it as Star Wars. They probly wouldn't recall its exact context though, as it is from the original Star Wars, episode 4. Either way, the idea here is that something has happened that you can't see, but it happening lets you know that someone is around. I'm not opposed to putting notes in the source about this, but it does seem really silly to do so. Seriously, Granted we have en_GB and so on, the en_US users who will find themselves seeing the untranslated version will understand and be amused at this one. =20 >=20 > 7) Why Ethan calls the psychic plugin a stalker plugin? >=20 > "If we're going to support crappy stalker-enablement plugins, we should= =20 > at least make an effort to ensure that they don't require C99." >=20 > (from svn log plugins/psychic.c) >=20 > Answer:=20 A number of our users are quite upset over the loss of the "conversation closed" messages from MSN. Such users have been obsessing over what it means when the other person closed that conversation. Does the person hate them? are they being ignored? Even more users obsess over the privacy stuff. Otherwise sane people worry that someone will think you hate them if you take them off your buddy list (you can tell on msn and jabber), or if they find out you blocked them (aim). I've even seen people change screennames because its somehow better to have forgotten to tell someone the new SN than to block them. Its crazy. It is senseless. It is very juvenile high school behavior. And its something Ethan has been summerizing as "stalker" behavior for a while now. The psychic mode plugin detects that someone is _about_ to send you a message. more technically, it catches the typing notification being sent as they type the first message, before you have (short of the plugin) seen anything to indicate their attention. It isn't quite the same as the stalker behaviors above. it doesn't give you quite the same information as (for example) the msn "conversation closed" messages did. But I can see where he'd lump it in. >=20 luke >=20 > Greetings, Bj=F6rn >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job=20 > easier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=120709&bid&3057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > Gaim-i18n mailing list > Gai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gaim-i18n >=20 |
From: Richard L. <rl...@wi...> - 2006-04-25 16:48:46
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On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 09:32 +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote: I said I expect translators to fully understand what they're translating. If it's not obvious and there aren't comments (which, I agree, there could be more), then ask. I don't think that's unreasonable at all. Ask about the string here. You asked. That was exactly what I was suggesting. My other point was that we're not always going to change the English strings to make literal translations easy. If Gaim was written in German and you used German idioms, I wouldn't expect you to change it to make the English translation easier. I'd figure out what it meant and then translate it into something appropriate. > 1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in src/gtkaccount.c:1297? > > Answer: It's in a callback function that's registered as a pop-up handler for the port entry field in proxy options. Right-click on that field and you'll see the string. I'd assume easter egg. (NOTE: I had never seen this code before I looked at it just now.) If I was a translator, I probably wouldn't bother with it. Or, I'd take the opportunity to translate it to a cutesy saying in my language and enjoy the fact that I know there's a "hidden" string which I created. > 2) Why is Syd Logan a "lazy bum" in AUTHORS and in src/gtkdialogs.c:100? > > Answer: I've always assumed inside joke. > 3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c? > > Answer: Without looking, I'd assume a server for the TOC protocol. > 4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean? > > Answer: The process of negotiating an SSL connection failed. This is standard technical jargon. > 5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c? > > Answer: Without looking, I'm not sure if channel means chat or a communications channel (the connection). But HMAC is a standard technical term. ... Looking at the source, it's immediately clear (given Channel Topic is right there) that this is talking about a "channel" as in "chat". > 6) What does ""You feel a disturbance in the force..." in plugins/psychic.c means? Feels like a Star Wars quote to me and Google confirms that. (NOTE: I'm probably in the minority of Americans here, but I've never seen any of the Star Wars movies.) If you knew, or could find, the translation of that quote in Star Wars for your language, that might work. Otherwise, this type of cultural reference is hard to deal with. If you can't think of a fun cultural reference that users of your translation will understand, I'd suggest using a translated version of something boring like, "Your psychic powers say you are about to receive a message." or something. > 7) Why Ethan calls the psychic plugin a stalker plugin? > > "If we're going to support crappy stalker-enablement plugins, we should at least make an effort to ensure that they don't require C99." > > (from svn log plugins/psychic.c) > > Answer: Because it pops up a conversation window when someone starts typing to you have not previously had a conversation open. There's hardly a legitimate need for that -- you'll be getting the message in a few seconds when they send it. I can't find any good documentation on adding "translation comments" to gettext. I see them mentioned all over the place, especially in reference to .po files, but I don't know how to add them. Granted, I haven't looked that hard. If someone has a reference, we could add a translation comment to #6 and maybe #2. Richard |
From: Sean E. <sea...@gm...> - 2006-04-25 17:16:28
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I'm reminded of http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/translation.html By the way: Dy'er Mak'er is a song by Led Zeppelin. -s. On 4/25/06, Richard Laager <rl...@wi...> wrote: > On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 09:32 +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote: > > I said I expect translators to fully understand what they're > translating. If it's not obvious and there aren't comments (which, I > agree, there could be more), then ask. I don't think that's unreasonable > at all. Ask about the string here. > > You asked. That was exactly what I was suggesting. > > My other point was that we're not always going to change the English > strings to make literal translations easy. If Gaim was written in German > and you used German idioms, I wouldn't expect you to change it to make > the English translation easier. I'd figure out what it meant and then > translate it into something appropriate. > > > 1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in src/gtkaccount.c:= 1297? > > > > Answer: > > It's in a callback function that's registered as a pop-up handler for > the port entry field in proxy options. Right-click on that field and > you'll see the string. I'd assume easter egg. (NOTE: I had never seen > this code before I looked at it just now.) > > If I was a translator, I probably wouldn't bother with it. Or, I'd take > the opportunity to translate it to a cutesy saying in my language and > enjoy the fact that I know there's a "hidden" string which I created. > > > 2) Why is Syd Logan a "lazy bum" in AUTHORS and in src/gtkdialogs.c:100= ? > > > > Answer: > > I've always assumed inside joke. > > > 3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c? > > > > Answer: > > Without looking, I'd assume a server for the TOC protocol. > > > 4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and = src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean? > > > > Answer: > > The process of negotiating an SSL connection failed. This is standard > technical jargon. > > > 5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c? > > > > Answer: > > Without looking, I'm not sure if channel means chat or a communications > channel (the connection). But HMAC is a standard technical term. > > ... Looking at the source, it's immediately clear (given Channel Topic > is right there) that this is talking about a "channel" as in "chat". > > > 6) What does ""You feel a disturbance in the force..." in plugins/psych= ic.c means? > > Feels like a Star Wars quote to me and Google confirms that. (NOTE: I'm > probably in the minority of Americans here, but I've never seen any of > the Star Wars movies.) > > If you knew, or could find, the translation of that quote in Star Wars > for your language, that might work. Otherwise, this type of cultural > reference is hard to deal with. If you can't think of a fun cultural > reference that users of your translation will understand, I'd suggest > using a translated version of something boring like, "Your psychic > powers say you are about to receive a message." or something. > > > 7) Why Ethan calls the psychic plugin a stalker plugin? > > > > "If we're going to support crappy stalker-enablement plugins, we sho= uld at least make an effort to ensure that they don't require C99." > > > > (from svn log plugins/psychic.c) > > > > Answer: > > Because it pops up a conversation window when someone starts typing to > you have not previously had a conversation open. There's hardly a > legitimate need for that -- you'll be getting the message in a few > seconds when they send it. > > > I can't find any good documentation on adding "translation comments" to > gettext. I see them mentioned all over the place, especially in > reference to .po files, but I don't know how to add them. Granted, I > haven't looked that hard. If someone has a reference, we could add a > translation comment to #6 and maybe #2. > > Richard > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job ea= sier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronim= o > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=3D120709&bid=3D263057&dat= =3D121642 > _______________________________________________ > Gaim-i18n mailing list > Gai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gaim-i18n > |
From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-04-25 19:32:00
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Richard Laager wrote: > > 6) What does "You feel a disturbance in the force..." in plugins/psyc= hic.c mean? > > Feels like a Star Wars quote to me and Google confirms that. (NOTE: I'm= > probably in the minority of Americans here, but I've never seen any of > the Star Wars movies.) > > If you knew, or could find, the translation of that quote in Star Wars > for your language, that might work. Otherwise, this type of cultural > reference is hard to deal with. If you can't think of a fun cultural > reference that users of your translation will understand, I'd suggest > using a translated version of something boring like, "Your psychic > powers say you are about to receive a message." or something. > =20 I suggest creating a "en_NSW" (English for Non Star Wars users)=20 translation for Gaim. So English users without Star Wars knowledge can=20 understand the messages of Gaim's psychic plugin. ;-) To make it clear: I don't think that only the translators have problems=20 with the discussed strings. Probably also many English users have=20 problems with them. The survey results show this - many false or=20 improper answers. Normally a translation can not be better than the=20 original. By the way: The user who asked me some weeks ago what does "You feel a=20 disturbance in the force..." in Gaim mean was someone with very good=20 English knowledge and some computer and instant messaging experience.=20 The user lived 10 years in Canada and learned English in a Canadian schoo= l. Greetings, Bj=F6rn |
From: Richard L. <rl...@wi...> - 2006-04-25 19:43:18
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On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 21:31 +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote: > By the way: The user who asked me some weeks ago what does "You feel a > disturbance in the force..." in Gaim mean was someone with very good > English knowledge and some computer and instant messaging experience. > The user lived 10 years in Canada and learned English in a Canadian school. I would probably agree if understanding this string was necessary to use Gaim, but SERIOUSLY, it's a string in the psychic plugin... The plugin description makes it clear what that plugin does, so this "weird string" isn't even inhibiting use of the plugin itself. I haven't even seen Star Wars and it took me less than 10 seconds to find the exact context of that quote using Google. Richard |
From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-04-25 20:15:59
Attachments:
gaim-star-wars.patch
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Richard Laager wrote: > I haven't even seen Star Wars and it took me less than 10 seconds to > find the exact context of that quote using Google. > =20 This can be done easier. Look at my Star Wars patch... ;-) Greetings, Bj=F6rn |
From: Ambrose LI <ac...@ad...> - 2006-04-25 20:21:24
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On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 09:31:43PM +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote: > > To make it clear: I don't think that only the translators have problems > with the discussed strings. Probably also many English users have > problems with them. The survey results show this - many false or > improper answers. Normally a translation can not be better than the > original. Er, can you be more specific? I am not seeing many "false or improper answers" here. In any case, these strings are not the most problematic I've seen in gaim. There are some strings that are much worse, ones that I do not understand after asking in #gaim, searching in Google, even reading the standards; in contrast, many of these strings in the survey are either obvious jokes or simple jargon. |
From: Sean E. <sea...@gm...> - 2006-04-25 20:40:56
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On 4/25/06, Ambrose LI <ac...@ad...> wrote: > In any case, these strings are not the most problematic I've seen in > gaim. There are some strings that are much worse, ones that I do not > understand after asking in #gaim, searching in Google, even reading > the standards; in contrast, many of these strings in the survey are > either obvious jokes or simple jargon. There seem to be three issues here: A particular string is offensive when translated literally - don't translate it literally. Clearly, the developer was being creative when he wrote the string; be creative when you translate it. A particular string is "unprofessional" - We wear our unprofessionalism as a badge. A particular string is unclear, ambiguous, poorly phrased, inaccruate, etc. - Real usability problems should be addressed, but I don't see any in this thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Mozilla_Firefox#Delicious_delicacie= s -s. |
From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-04-25 20:54:39
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Ambrose LI wrote: > Er, can you be more specific? I am not seeing many "false or improper > answers" here. > =20 May be we should still wait a bit with the master solution for the=20 survey questions. :-) > In any case, these strings are not the most problematic I've seen in > gaim. There are some strings that are much worse, ones that I do not > understand after asking in #gaim, searching in Google, even reading > the standards; in contrast, many of these strings in the survey are > either obvious jokes or simple jargon. > =20 Yes of course we have many such problematic strings in Gaim. My samples=20 only show some of them. The point is that our information flow is not optimal in i18n issues: 1. A single translator finds a problematic string in his .po file. 2. He tries to get an explanation in #gaim, Google or in this list. 3. Someone gives him an explanation and he translates the string. 4. Nobody changes the source code (no string changes, no comments). 5. Weeks or month later another translator finds the same problematic string. 6. He also tries to get an explanation in #gaim, Google or in this list (may be he finds old mails in his archive about the problematic word). 7. Weeks later the next translator finds the problematic string. 8. He lets the string untranslated because he has no time to talk in #gaim etc. 9. ... For me it's the best solution to have an=20 internationalization/localization manager in Gaim. His main tasks could b= e: * Helping translators with problematic strings. * Commenting problematic strings in the source. * Changing "bad" strings in the source. He always should have user's view, human interface guidelines etc. in mind. * Dealing with other internationalization problems like date/time formats, right-to-left languages, far-east language specials etc. * Collecting translations from the translation tracker and commit the= m. Of course this manager should have write access to the repository. But=20 there should be a verbal agreement with the developers so that the=20 internationalization/localization manager should only concentrate on=20 internationalization/localization issues. I suggested this several times more or less directly in discussions with = the developers. Developers always declined this. But may be we find a good internationalization/localization expert which = is accepted by the developers. Greetings, Bj=F6rn |
From: Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...> - 2006-04-25 21:22:05
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Bjoern Voigt spake unto us the following wisdom: > Yes of course we have many such problematic strings in Gaim. My samples= =20 > only show some of them. The following is possibly a useful thing to consider; changing these particular strings was not. > The point is that our information flow is not optimal in i18n issues: >=20 > 1. A single translator finds a problematic string in his .po file. > 2. He tries to get an explanation in #gaim, Google or in this list. > 3. Someone gives him an explanation and he translates the string. > 4. Nobody changes the source code (no string changes, no comments). This, it would seem, is where we could make the most effective changes. When a string or phrase is unclear and requires clarification, if changing the string is not the best solution (as it is not for the strings you have brought up), a clarifying comment should be added to the code which the next translator will see. In several of your second set of examples, the strings which seem to have given you trouble contain technical terms which should probably remain (e.g., TOC and HMAC), but may need clarification for the translator. Both of those strings are things that users either a) should not see (a busted HMAC is a serious problem that shouldn't happen under normal circumstances), or b) shoudl not mess with (users have no business messing with their TOC server). > 5. Weeks or month later another translator finds the same problematic > string. > 6. He also tries to get an explanation in #gaim, Google or in this > list (may be he finds old mails in his archive about the > problematic word). > 7. Weeks later the next translator finds the problematic string. > 8. He lets the string untranslated because he has no time to talk in > #gaim etc. > 9. ... It would be interesting to know how often this actually happens. I suspect that for the *most* part it's another hypothetical problem -- the questions I see are often about different strings, and often stem =66rom a translator translating a portion of Gaim they do not themselves use. This is a problem, I think, in the ideal world ... it would be best if translators found the string in the program and translated it intelligently based on context. I realize that this is not always feasible, but lack of familiarity seems to lead to most of the problems I have seen. > For me it's the best solution to have an=20 > internationalization/localization manager in Gaim. His main tasks could b= e: >=20 > * Helping translators with problematic strings. > * Commenting problematic strings in the source. > * Changing "bad" strings in the source. He always should have user's > view, human interface guidelines etc. in mind. As well as the flavor of our culture, and a healty sense of "this is just whining". > * Dealing with other internationalization problems like date/time > formats, right-to-left languages, far-east language specials etc. > * Collecting translations from the translation tracker and commit them. >=20 > Of course this manager should have write access to the repository. But=20 > there should be a verbal agreement with the developers so that the=20 > internationalization/localization manager should only concentrate on=20 > internationalization/localization issues. >=20 > I suggested this several times more or less directly in discussions with= =20 > the developers. Developers always declined this. I have never heard this. The only objection I would have to pinning a particular person down to this is finding someone with the time to do it right. If someone has the time, more power to them. Right now, Luke handles a lot of this and seems (from my viewpoint) to handle it well. If there is something specific that he (or we) could be doing differently, please let us know. Frankly, I think you, specifically, have made a few suggestions which have not been accepted because community consensus (including that of other translators) has been that the changes are not always for the better; this experience may be coloring your opinion of the general state of affairs. (I remember at least one set of plurality changes which you wanted to make to make German easier, but which wouldn't fly because of, e.g., Slavic languages having three plural forms, for example.) In general, I feel that we are relatively responsive to *actual* problems in strings. "This string is offensive when I naively translate it to my native language without respect to the flavor of the original language's nuances" is not a string problem which we should be solving by changing code. When we find strings that are, say, not marked as requiring a plural form because English does not, but some other language does, the change is made immediately without resistance. If this is not the case, then I apologize. Ethan --=20 The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy for evils]. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. -- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764 |