From: Peter J. F. I. <pjf...@ea...> - 2013-07-23 05:02:16
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Hi, As requested by Earnie, I created a wiki page about how to set up the "info" command in mingw/msys, but I'm at a loss as to what to do next. The page is here: http://www.mingw.org/wiki/HOWTO_Set_up_the_info_command_in_mingwmsys Is there now a moderator-controlled process that will add this page to the "User Contributed" section of the wiki, or is there some step I need to do to add it myself? I am a complete wiki editing noobie, so please be gentle. If there is a page of instructions I missed, please point it out and I will read it. Regards, Peter |
From: Keith M. <kei...@us...> - 2013-07-23 10:50:08
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On 23/07/13 06:01, Peter J. Farley III wrote: > As requested by Earnie, I created a wiki page about how to set up the > "info" command in mingw/msys, but I'm at a loss as to what to do next. Thanks for this. > The page is here: > http://www.mingw.org/wiki/HOWTO_Set_up_the_info_command_in_mingwmsys > > Is there now a moderator-controlled process that will add this page to > the "User Contributed" section of the wiki, or is there some step I > need to do to add it myself? You should be able to just edit the existing HOWTO catalogue page: http://www.mingw.org/wiki/HOWTO and add an appropriate link. You might also consider creating a shorter page name alias; "InfoReaderHOWTO" perhaps, to help in keeping references compact. Please also review the footnotes I've added, as a comment to your original page. -- Regards, Keith. |
From: Earnie B. <ea...@us...> - 2013-07-23 11:15:14
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On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:49 AM, Keith Marshall wrote: > and add an appropriate link. You might also consider creating a shorter > page name alias; "InfoReaderHOWTO" perhaps, to help in keeping > references compact. IIRC, I don't think the general user has the rights to modify the alias. IIRC, we locked it down so that it would match the page title. -- Earnie -- https://sites.google.com/site/earnieboyd |
From: Earnie B. <ea...@us...> - 2013-07-23 11:16:47
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On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Earnie Boyd wrote: > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:49 AM, Keith Marshall wrote: >> and add an appropriate link. You might also consider creating a shorter >> page name alias; "InfoReaderHOWTO" perhaps, to help in keeping >> references compact. > > IIRC, I don't think the general user has the rights to modify the > alias. IIRC, we locked it down so that it would match the page title. And once created the user does not have the rights to change the title to prevent links from changing. -- Earnie -- https://sites.google.com/site/earnieboyd |
From: Peter J. F. I. <pjf...@ea...> - 2013-07-23 13:00:39
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> -----Original Message----- > From: Earnie Boyd [mailto:ea...@us...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 7:17 AM > To: MinGW Users List > Subject: Re: [Mingw-users] Wiki page created, next step is ... ? > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Earnie Boyd wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:49 AM, Keith Marshall wrote: > >> and add an appropriate link. You might also consider creating a > shorter > >> page name alias; "InfoReaderHOWTO" perhaps, to help in keeping > >> references compact. > > > > IIRC, I don't think the general user has the rights to modify the > > alias. IIRC, we locked it down so that it would match the page title. > > And once created the user does not have the rights to change the title > to prevent links from changing. Both true, from my experience in creating that page. I can create a new page with a shorter title and just copy the content over if shorter is better. That'll have to wait for a few more of those round tuits though. Peter -- |
From: Peter J. F. I. <pjf...@ea...> - 2013-07-23 13:03:39
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> -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Marshall [mailto:kei...@us...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 6:50 AM > To: min...@li... > Subject: Re: [Mingw-users] Wiki page created, next step is ... ? <Snipped> > Please also review the footnotes I've added, as a comment to your > original page. > > -- > Regards, > Keith. Thanks for the insightful comments. I will consider what changes I can make to address each of your points. Regards, Peter -- |
From: Eli Z. <el...@gn...> - 2013-07-24 04:04:22
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> From: "Peter J. Farley III" <pjf...@ea...> > Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 01:01:54 -0400 > > As requested by Earnie, I created a wiki page about how to set up the > "info" command in mingw/msys, but I'm at a loss as to what to do next. > > The page is here: > > http://www.mingw.org/wiki/HOWTO_Set_up_the_info_command_in_mingwmsys Going there comes back with "page does not exist". Where is it? |
From: Earnie B. <ea...@us...> - 2013-07-24 11:27:04
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On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: "Peter J. Farley III" >> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 01:01:54 -0400 >> >> As requested by Earnie, I created a wiki page about how to set up the >> "info" command in mingw/msys, but I'm at a loss as to what to do next. >> >> The page is here: >> >> http://www.mingw.org/wiki/HOWTO_Set_up_the_info_command_in_mingwmsys > > Going there comes back with "page does not exist". Where is it? http://www.mingw.org/wiki/HOWTO_Set_up_the_info_command_in_mingw_msys -- Earnie -- https://sites.google.com/site/earnieboyd |
From: Peter J. F. I. <pjf...@ea...> - 2013-07-24 12:44:46
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> -----Original Message----- > From: Earnie Boyd [mailto:ea...@us...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 7:27 AM > To: Eli Zaretskii; MinGW Users List > Subject: Re: [Mingw-users] Wiki page created, next step is ... ? > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> From: "Peter J. Farley III" > >> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 01:01:54 -0400 > >> > >> As requested by Earnie, I created a wiki page about how to set up > the > >> "info" command in mingw/msys, but I'm at a loss as to what to do > next. > >> > >> The page is here: > >> > >> > http://www.mingw.org/wiki/HOWTO_Set_up_the_info_command_in > _mingwmsys > > > > Going there comes back with "page does not exist". Where is it? > > http://www.mingw.org/wiki/HOWTO_Set_up_the_info_command_in > _mingw_msys Sorry about that, I deleted the original page after I copied the content to a new page trying to make the [[page link]] from HOWTO work, but apparently I still have a lot to learn about wiki page naming and linking. I had to use a url to point to the newer page instead of a [[page link]] due, I think, to my use of a "+" character in the title. The newer page has a working link in the User Contributed section of the HOWTO page: http://www.mingw.org/wiki/HOWTO Peter -- |
From: Eli Z. <el...@gn...> - 2013-07-24 17:24:47
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> From: "Peter J. Farley III" <pjf...@ea...> > Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 08:44:27 -0400 > > > http://www.mingw.org/wiki/HOWTO_Set_up_the_info_command_in > > _mingwmsys > > > > > > Going there comes back with "page does not exist". Where is it? > > > > http://www.mingw.org/wiki/HOWTO_Set_up_the_info_command_in > > _mingw_msys > > Sorry about that, I deleted the original page after I copied the > content to a new page trying to make the [[page link]] from HOWTO > work, but apparently I still have a lot to learn about wiki page > naming and linking. I had to use a url to point to the newer page > instead of a [[page link]] due, I think, to my use of a "+" character > in the title. > > The newer page has a working link in the User Contributed section of > the HOWTO page: > > http://www.mingw.org/wiki/HOWTO Thanks. I've read it, and I disagree with its recommendations on 2 counts: . The way you recommend setting INFOPATH in the environment. My recommendation (for any environment variables set for MSYS programs, not just INFOPATH) is to set them in your ~/.bashrc file, or maybe in /etc/profile. That's because setting environment variables the way you suggest make them visible to _all_ Windows programs, not just for MSYS. And that is IMO a bad idea, since native Windows programs, including MinGW programs, will grok neither the Unix-style ':' separators, nor /usr/share/foo Posix-style directories. The sane way of using MSYS, in my experience, is to carefully segregate it from the other Windows programs, in every sense. (That is, unless you want to use _only_ MSYS tools and never touch native programs -- but then why not just install Cygwin?). . Your recommendation to use MSYS Info reader for reading Info manuals distributed with MinGW packages. Again, I recommend to segregate MSYS from MinGW. Use MSYS Info reader and install-info for MSYS packages, and the MinGW Info reader and install-info for MinGW packages. The differences between them might be subtle and elusive, but they will bite you eventually. For example, MSYS install-info does binary I/O, so if the Info manual that comes with a MinGW package has DOS CRLF end-of-line format, MSYS install-info will copy it verbatim into the DIR file, creating a potentially mixed Unix/DOS EOL format, something you'd like to avoid, especially if you use Emacs. So, bottom line, I suggest to have 2 separate sections on that page: one that explains how to set up Info for MinGW packages, the other how to do that for MSYS. From my experience, the former is much more important for users who, like me, use MSYS only to build MinGW ports, and otherwise use those MinGW ports in their day-to-day work. (Heck, I don't even have the MSYS Texinfo package installed, because the MinGW port of Texinfo works very well for building Info docs, even though it is run by MSYS Make and Bash.) Thanks. |
From: Peter J. F. I. <pjf...@ea...> - 2013-07-25 04:03:10
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> -----Original Message----- > From: Eli Zaretskii > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 1:25 PM > To: MinGW Users List > Subject: Re: [Mingw-users] Wiki page created, next step is ... ? > > Thanks. I've read it, and I disagree with its recommendations on 2 > counts: > > . The way you recommend setting INFOPATH in the environment. > > My recommendation (for any environment variables set for MSYS > programs, not just INFOPATH) is to set them in your ~/.bashrc file, > or maybe in /etc/profile. That's because setting environment > variables the way you suggest make them visible to _all_ Windows > programs, not just for MSYS. And that is IMO a bad idea, since > native Windows programs, including MinGW programs, will grok > neither the Unix-style ':' separators, nor /usr/share/foo > Posix-style directories. > > The sane way of using MSYS, in my experience, is to carefully > segregate it from the other Windows programs, in every sense. > (That is, unless you want to use _only_ MSYS tools and never touch > native programs -- but then why not just install Cygwin?). My focus on that page is primarily for mingw users working in a cmd.exe shell, not bash. That is why I also recommend (though perhaps I should make it a much stronger recommendation) setting the INFOPATH environment variable in a separate cmd.exe shell script (e.g. set-info.cmd or set-mingw.cmd). That way you can set it when using mingw in cmd.exe and otherwise it would not be in the way of any other software. I do agree that setting INFOPATH for your user logon or worse for the whole system is something that could come back to bite you, and I should also point that out more forcefully. Or maybe just not mention those options at all? As for the Unix-style ":" separators and /use/share/foo syntax, that is the syntax understood by the existing msys info reader, which is the only one I have at this time. (More on that below.) > . Your recommendation to use MSYS Info reader for reading Info > manuals distributed with MinGW packages. > > Again, I recommend to segregate MSYS from MinGW. Use MSYS Info > reader and install-info for MSYS packages, and the MinGW Info > reader and install-info for MinGW packages. The differences > between them might be subtle and elusive, but they will bite you > eventually. For example, MSYS install-info does binary I/O, so if > the Info manual that comes with a MinGW package has DOS CRLF > end-of-line format, MSYS install-info will copy it verbatim into > the DIR file, creating a potentially mixed Unix/DOS EOL format, > something you'd like to avoid, especially if you use Emacs. Only one problem -- there is no mingw Texinfo package available that I could find on the mingw download site, and thus no mingw info or mingw install-info available to retrieve with mingw-get. Only the msys version seems to be available, so that's the only one I have right now. Would you please point me to where there might be a mingw Texinfo download available to install with mingw-get? > So, bottom line, I suggest to have 2 separate sections on that page: > one that explains how to set up Info for MinGW packages, the other > how to do that for MSYS. From my experience, the former is much > more important for users who, like me, use MSYS only to build > MinGW ports, and otherwise use those MinGW ports in their > day-to-day work. (Heck, I don't even have the MSYS Texinfo > package installed, because the MinGW port of Texinfo works very > well for building Info docs, even though it is run by MSYS Make > and Bash.) But that introduces another problem -- with that setup you can only see the info files available for one environment at a time, since the info files are installed in different places (and possibly with different line endings, as you suggested above). When I want info on gawk (at the moment), I have to use the msys gawk and therefore the msys gawk.info file. Ditto for all the other msys commands which execute quite well in cmd.exe and do not seem to need to run inside of bash to be useful under a cmd.exe shell. I don't see a reasonable solution to that dichotomy other than using one info reader with two INFOPATH directories, since some of the msys-only utilities may always be msys-only and may never be ported to mingw. > Thanks. As usual, thanks to you for your sharp insights on how things might get used (or abused) and how we can trip ourselves up without really meaning to do that. Regards, Peter -- |
From: Eli Z. <el...@gn...> - 2013-07-25 16:39:00
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> From: "Peter J. Farley III" <pjf...@ea...> > Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 00:02:50 -0400 > > Only one problem -- there is no mingw Texinfo package available that I > could find on the mingw download site, and thus no mingw info or mingw > install-info available to retrieve with mingw-get. Only the msys > version seems to be available, so that's the only one I have right > now. > > Would you please point me to where there might be a mingw Texinfo > download available to install with mingw-get? First, the official Texinfo sources, as of the latest release, build out of the box with MSYS/MinGW, so you should be able to build it yourself. If you need precompiled binaries, you will find them here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/?source=navbar No mingw-get support there, sorry. But unzipping a single zip file should not be to complicated, just unzip it from the root of your MinGW tree. > But that introduces another problem -- with that setup you can only > see the info files available for one environment at a time, since the > info files are installed in different places (and possibly with > different line endings, as you suggested above). When I want info on > gawk (at the moment), I have to use the msys gawk and therefore the > msys gawk.info file. Ditto for all the other msys commands which > execute quite well in cmd.exe and do not seem to need to run inside of > bash to be useful under a cmd.exe shell. I see no problem here: you use MSYS Gawk when working with MSYS tools, and you should use MinGW Gawk when working with native programs. I assume you invoke the former from MSYS Bash, and the latter from a cmd window, so you already have 2 separate environments. But if you want all of your Info files be reachable in each environment, set up INFOPATH to include both directories, and that's it. > I don't see a reasonable solution to that dichotomy other than using > one info reader with two INFOPATH directories, since some of the > msys-only utilities may always be msys-only and may never be ported to > mingw. I indeed use only one reader: the MinGW one. It can read any Info file I have on my box. |
From: Peter J. F. I. <pjf...@ea...> - 2013-07-26 01:11:30
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> -----Original Message----- > From: Eli Zaretskii [mailto:el...@gn...] > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 12:39 PM > To: MinGW Users List > Subject: Re: [Mingw-users] Wiki page created, next step is ... ? > > > From: "Peter J. Farley III" <pjf...@ea...> > > Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 00:02:50 -0400 > > > > Would you please point me to where there might be a mingw > > Texinfo download available to install with mingw-get? > > First, the official Texinfo sources, as of the latest release, build > out of the box with MSYS/MinGW, so you should be able to build it > yourself. > > If you need precompiled binaries, you will find them here: > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/?source=navbar > > No mingw-get support there, sorry. But unzipping a single zip file > should not be to complicated, just unzip it from the root of your > MinGW tree. Oh! I had not found your ezwinports site prior to this. Thank you! Unzipping binaries is not an issue for me at all. > > But that introduces another problem -- with that setup you can only > > see the info files available for one environment at a time, since the > > info files are installed in different places (and possibly with > > different line endings, as you suggested above). When I want info > > on gawk (at the moment), I have to use the msys gawk and therefore > > the msys gawk.info file. Ditto for all the other msys commands which > > execute quite well in cmd.exe and do not seem to need to run inside > > of bash to be useful under a cmd.exe shell. > > I see no problem here: you use MSYS Gawk when working with MSYS > tools, and you should use MinGW Gawk when working with native > programs. I assume you invoke the former from MSYS Bash, and the > latter from a cmd window, so you already have 2 separate environments. > > But if you want all of your Info files be reachable in each > environment, set up INFOPATH to include both directories, and that's > it. > > > I don't see a reasonable solution to that dichotomy other than using > > one info reader with two INFOPATH directories, since some of the > > msys-only utilities may always be msys-only and may never be > > ported to mingw. > > I indeed use only one reader: the MinGW one. It can read any Info > file I have on my box. OK, I will try the separation you are describing. At first I thought that the msys binaries might sometimes be needed while working in a cmd window, but I am beginning to see that they may not be. A practical question: When building a tool like Texinfo "out of the box", do you start in a cmd window or in a bash shell window? Thanks once again for your help and advice. Peter -- |
From: Eli Z. <el...@gn...> - 2013-07-26 06:39:37
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> From: "Peter J. Farley III" <pjf...@ea...> > Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 21:11:11 -0400 > > A practical question: When building a tool like Texinfo "out of the > box", do you start in a cmd window or in a bash shell window? I always run Posix builds from an MSYS Bash window. That window is set up to provide the Posix environment that these builds expect, and that I want to have when I use Bash (e.g., command history and completion are set up as I like them). My cmd window, OTOH, are set up to provide a native environment, which is different, starting from PATH and other environment variables. |