From: David G. <dg...@gm...> - 2011-08-27 14:08:47
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So, I've hooked my girlfriend's cheap'n'cheerful Casio keyboard (CTK-2100) to my netbook running LMMS 0.4.10. The MIDI input works great ... unfortunately, it has an annoying time delay of something like 1/8 or 1/16 second on input. This is enough to make trying to record to piano-roll from MIDI very annoying and difficult. What would be causing this? Does anyone else get this? Is there any way to disable it? Is it actually the keyboard itself? - d. |
From: Jonathan A. <eag...@gm...> - 2011-08-27 15:18:47
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Does said keyboard have a built in sound card? If not then its using your netbook sound card which isn't fast enough in regards to processing the input signals. On 27/08/2011 16:08, David Gerard wrote: > So, I've hooked my girlfriend's cheap'n'cheerful Casio keyboard > (CTK-2100) to my netbook running LMMS 0.4.10. > > The MIDI input works great ... unfortunately, it has an annoying time > delay of something like 1/8 or 1/16 second on input. This is enough to > make trying to record to piano-roll from MIDI very annoying and > difficult. > > What would be causing this? Does anyone else get this? Is there any > way to disable it? Is it actually the keyboard itself? > > > - d. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > EMC VNX: the world's simplest storage, starting under $10K > The only unified storage solution that offers unified management > Up to 160% more powerful than alternatives and 25% more efficient. > Guaranteed. http://p.sf.net/sfu/emc-vnx-dev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Lmms-users mailing list > Lmm...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-users |
From: David G. <dg...@gm...> - 2011-08-27 15:29:23
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On 27 August 2011 16:17, Jonathan Aquilina <eag...@gm...> wrote: > Does said keyboard have a built in sound card? If not then its using > your netbook sound card which isn't fast enough in regards to processing > the input signals. Uh, it's a standalone keyboard that also does MIDI out. All that's coming over the USB is MIDI data, not rendered sound. Are you saying the MIDI data is rendered by the sound card before being passed to LMMS? Surely not. - d. |
From: Austin D. <pac...@gm...> - 2011-08-27 15:36:46
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I have the same problem. It seems like it is an issue with the device proccesing the MIDI and that there's not much that can be done. Sometimes playing with the latency setting helped me for MIDI output, but this won't much help with input for obvious reasons. On Aug 27, 2011 11:29 AM, "David Gerard" <dg...@gm...> wrote: On 27 August 2011 16:17, Jonathan Aquilina <eag...@gm...> wrote: > Does said keyboard hav... Uh, it's a standalone keyboard that also does MIDI out. All that's coming over the USB is MIDI data, not rendered sound. Are you saying the MIDI data is rendered by the sound card before being passed to LMMS? Surely not. - d. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ EMC VNX: the ... |
From: Nikos C. <re...@ar...> - 2011-08-27 17:08:45
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On 08/27/2011 05:08 PM, David Gerard wrote: > So, I've hooked my girlfriend's cheap'n'cheerful Casio keyboard > (CTK-2100) to my netbook running LMMS 0.4.10. > > The MIDI input works great ... unfortunately, it has an annoying time > delay of something like 1/8 or 1/16 second on input. This is enough to > make trying to record to piano-roll from MIDI very annoying and > difficult. > > What would be causing this? Does anyone else get this? Is there any > way to disable it? Is it actually the keyboard itself? This is a problem everyone has on all operating systems. It's called "latency". If you're on Linux, you solve that by using JACK instead of ALSA or PulseAudio. To bring latency down even further, you then either use an RT kernel (overkill) or a standard kernel patched with BFS (recommended.) If you're on Windows, you need to install an ASIO driver for your sound card. If there isn't one, you can use the asio4all driver (google it.) But I don't know if LMMS supports ASIO. If not, you will have to live with the latency and there's nothing you can do short of using something other than LMMS. |
From: Jonathan A. <eag...@gm...> - 2011-08-27 18:54:48
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nikos you can also get jack on windows too On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:08 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <re...@ar...> wrote: > On 08/27/2011 05:08 PM, David Gerard wrote: > > So, I've hooked my girlfriend's cheap'n'cheerful Casio keyboard > > (CTK-2100) to my netbook running LMMS 0.4.10. > > > > The MIDI input works great ... unfortunately, it has an annoying time > > delay of something like 1/8 or 1/16 second on input. This is enough to > > make trying to record to piano-roll from MIDI very annoying and > > difficult. > > > > What would be causing this? Does anyone else get this? Is there any > > way to disable it? Is it actually the keyboard itself? > > This is a problem everyone has on all operating systems. It's called > "latency". If you're on Linux, you solve that by using JACK instead of > ALSA or PulseAudio. To bring latency down even further, you then either > use an RT kernel (overkill) or a standard kernel patched with BFS > (recommended.) > > If you're on Windows, you need to install an ASIO driver for your sound > card. If there isn't one, you can use the asio4all driver (google it.) > But I don't know if LMMS supports ASIO. If not, you will have to live > with the latency and there's nothing you can do short of using something > other than LMMS. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > EMC VNX: the world's simplest storage, starting under $10K > The only unified storage solution that offers unified management > Up to 160% more powerful than alternatives and 25% more efficient. > Guaranteed. http://p.sf.net/sfu/emc-vnx-dev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Lmms-users mailing list > Lmm...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-users > -- Jonathan Aquilina |
From: Nikos C. <re...@ar...> - 2011-08-27 19:36:32
|
Can it use ASIO? Because otherwise it won't do much latency-wise. On 08/27/2011 09:54 PM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote: > nikos you can also get jack on windows too > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:08 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <re...@ar... > <mailto:re...@ar...>> wrote: > > On 08/27/2011 05:08 PM, David Gerard wrote: > > So, I've hooked my girlfriend's cheap'n'cheerful Casio keyboard > > (CTK-2100) to my netbook running LMMS 0.4.10. > > > > The MIDI input works great ... unfortunately, it has an annoying time > > delay of something like 1/8 or 1/16 second on input. This is > enough to > > make trying to record to piano-roll from MIDI very annoying and > > difficult. > > > > What would be causing this? Does anyone else get this? Is there any > > way to disable it? Is it actually the keyboard itself? > > This is a problem everyone has on all operating systems. It's called > "latency". If you're on Linux, you solve that by using JACK instead of > ALSA or PulseAudio. To bring latency down even further, you then either > use an RT kernel (overkill) or a standard kernel patched with BFS > (recommended.) > > If you're on Windows, you need to install an ASIO driver for your sound > card. If there isn't one, you can use the asio4all driver (google it.) > But I don't know if LMMS supports ASIO. If not, you will have to live > with the latency and there's nothing you can do short of using something > other than LMMS. |
From: Nikos C. <re...@ar...> - 2011-08-27 19:49:31
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On 08/27/2011 10:36 PM, Nikos Chantziaras wrote: > Can [JACK] use ASIO? Because otherwise it won't do much latency-wise. OK, it seems it does. So to the OP, go here: http://www.asio4all.com/ Download and install the driver. Then go here: http://jackaudio.org/download Download the Windows installer, run JACK, configure it to use ASIO, then configure LMMS to use JACK, and restart it. |
From: David G. <dg...@gm...> - 2011-08-27 21:37:39
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On 27 August 2011 20:49, Nikos Chantziaras <re...@ar...> wrote: > On 08/27/2011 10:36 PM, Nikos Chantziaras wrote: >> Can [JACK] use ASIO? Because otherwise it won't do much latency-wise. > OK, it seems it does. So to the OP, go here: > http://www.asio4all.com/ > Download and install the driver. Then go here: > http://jackaudio.org/download > Download the Windows installer, run JACK, configure it to use ASIO, then > configure LMMS to use JACK, and restart it. *cough* the OP (me) is doing this on Ubuntu, not Windows ;-) I used JACK before when I was trying to get Rosegarden to work. Horrible fiddly thing. The netbook could barely cope with Rosegarden, JACK and Qsynth. (Yeah yeah, I should get a real computer.) So, MIDI is routed through the sound driver before it gets to LMMS, then? How annoying. - d. |
From: Nikos C. <re...@ar...> - 2011-08-27 22:11:51
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On 08/28/2011 12:37 AM, David Gerard wrote: > On 27 August 2011 20:49, Nikos Chantziaras<re...@ar...> wrote: >> On 08/27/2011 10:36 PM, Nikos Chantziaras wrote: > >>> Can [JACK] use ASIO? Because otherwise it won't do much latency-wise. > >> OK, it seems it does. So to the OP, go here: >> http://www.asio4all.com/ >> Download and install the driver. Then go here: >> http://jackaudio.org/download >> Download the Windows installer, run JACK, configure it to use ASIO, then >> configure LMMS to use JACK, and restart it. > > > *cough* the OP (me) is doing this on Ubuntu, not Windows ;-) > > I used JACK before when I was trying to get Rosegarden to work. > Horrible fiddly thing. The netbook could barely cope with Rosegarden, > JACK and Qsynth. (Yeah yeah, I should get a real computer.) > > So, MIDI is routed through the sound driver before it gets to LMMS, > then? How annoying. No. It gets to LMMS first. But "latency" is the delay it takes for LMMS to get the event and then to generate the sound that event should produce and then it takes additional time for the sound to reach the hardware (sound card). I'd recommend JACK2 with the QjackCtl GUI to control it. It's very easy. The only tweaks that affect performance are "Frames/Period" and "Periods/Buffer". Try 64 and 2. Raise one of them if the system can't keep up. |
From: David G. <dg...@gm...> - 2011-08-27 22:39:34
|
On 27 August 2011 23:11, Nikos Chantziaras <re...@ar...> wrote: > On 08/28/2011 12:37 AM, David Gerard wrote: >> So, MIDI is routed through the sound driver before it gets to LMMS, >> then? How annoying. > No. It gets to LMMS first. But "latency" is the delay it takes for > LMMS to get the event and then to generate the sound that event should > produce and then it takes additional time for the sound to reach the > hardware (sound card). This does not match what I'm observing: a delay in notes being written to the piano roll, not just a delay in the sound of the notes being played. (Unless LMMS insists on starting playing the note before adding it to the piano roll ...) - d. |
From: Arnout E. <lm...@bz...> - 2011-08-28 09:43:38
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On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 11:39:28PM +0100, David Gerard wrote: > On 27 August 2011 23:11, Nikos Chantziaras <re...@ar...> wrote: > > "latency" is the delay it takes for > > LMMS to get the event and then to generate the sound that event should > > produce and then it takes additional time for the sound to reach the > > hardware (sound card). > > This does not match what I'm observing: a delay in notes being written > to the piano roll, not just a delay in the sound of the notes being > played. To check whether the latency is introduced in LMMS or somewhere earlier in the stack, hook up a MIDI monitor like KMidiMon to see if the events do arrive directly. I don't see how switching to JACK would help in this particular case. To take LMMS out of the equation, try if the latency is also there when using Qsynth - it defaults to JACK, but it can also output ALSA. > (Unless LMMS insists on starting playing the note before adding it to > the piano roll ...) I don't know how LMMS works, but it would make sense to output the sound directly and postpone updating the GUI to whenever the system has some time to spare. Arnout |
From: Jonathan A. <eag...@gm...> - 2011-08-28 09:45:57
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Arnout if your recording you don't want that you want to see the output. if your just playing a single note at a time that is a different story though. logic studio manages to do real time processing, but then again i'm not sure if that is dependent on the sound card and buffer size being used. On 28/08/2011 11:43, Arnout Engelen wrote: > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 11:39:28PM +0100, David Gerard wrote: >> On 27 August 2011 23:11, Nikos Chantziaras<re...@ar...> wrote: >>> "latency" is the delay it takes for >>> LMMS to get the event and then to generate the sound that event should >>> produce and then it takes additional time for the sound to reach the >>> hardware (sound card). >> This does not match what I'm observing: a delay in notes being written >> to the piano roll, not just a delay in the sound of the notes being >> played. > To check whether the latency is introduced in LMMS or somewhere earlier in > the stack, hook up a MIDI monitor like KMidiMon to see if the events do > arrive directly. > > I don't see how switching to JACK would help in this particular case. > > To take LMMS out of the equation, try if the latency is also there when using > Qsynth - it defaults to JACK, but it can also output ALSA. > >> (Unless LMMS insists on starting playing the note before adding it to >> the piano roll ...) > I don't know how LMMS works, but it would make sense to output the sound > directly and postpone updating the GUI to whenever the system has some time > to spare. > > > Arnout > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > EMC VNX: the world's simplest storage, starting under $10K > The only unified storage solution that offers unified management > Up to 160% more powerful than alternatives and 25% more efficient. > Guaranteed. http://p.sf.net/sfu/emc-vnx-dev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Lmms-users mailing list > Lmm...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-users |
From: Arnout E. <lm...@bz...> - 2011-08-28 10:04:56
|
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 11:45:09AM +0200, Jonathan Aquilina wrote: > if your recording you don't want that, you want to see the output. But not necessarily in real-time. For the recording you generally only care about audio quality and jitter, not latency and gui updates. Latency in the recording can be easily compensated, after all. I was assuming the original poster had problems recording because the latency of the real-time audio feedback was confusing his rhythm - I certainly have that problem when playing through a MIDI instrument that has excessive latency - but indeed that was my assumption. David: could you clarify? Are you having problems with the real-time audio output, the behavior of the GUI or with the recorded audio? Or something else entirely? :) Kind regards, Arnout > On 28/08/2011 11:43, Arnout Engelen wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 11:39:28PM +0100, David Gerard wrote: > >> On 27 August 2011 23:11, Nikos Chantziaras<re...@ar...> wrote: > >>> "latency" is the delay it takes for > >>> LMMS to get the event and then to generate the sound that event should > >>> produce and then it takes additional time for the sound to reach the > >>> hardware (sound card). > >> This does not match what I'm observing: a delay in notes being written > >> to the piano roll, not just a delay in the sound of the notes being > >> played. > > To check whether the latency is introduced in LMMS or somewhere earlier in > > the stack, hook up a MIDI monitor like KMidiMon to see if the events do > > arrive directly. > > > > I don't see how switching to JACK would help in this particular case. > > > > To take LMMS out of the equation, try if the latency is also there when using > > Qsynth - it defaults to JACK, but it can also output ALSA. > > > >> (Unless LMMS insists on starting playing the note before adding it to > >> the piano roll ...) > > I don't know how LMMS works, but it would make sense to output the sound > > directly and postpone updating the GUI to whenever the system has some time > > to spare. > > > > > > Arnout > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > EMC VNX: the world's simplest storage, starting under $10K > > The only unified storage solution that offers unified management > > Up to 160% more powerful than alternatives and 25% more efficient. > > Guaranteed. http://p.sf.net/sfu/emc-vnx-dev2dev > > _______________________________________________ > > Lmms-users mailing list > > Lmm...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-users > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > EMC VNX: the world's simplest storage, starting under $10K > The only unified storage solution that offers unified management > Up to 160% more powerful than alternatives and 25% more efficient. > Guaranteed. http://p.sf.net/sfu/emc-vnx-dev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Lmms-users mailing list > Lmm...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-users |
From: David G. <dg...@gm...> - 2011-09-04 10:29:48
|
On 28 August 2011 11:04, Arnout Engelen <lm...@bz...> wrote: > I was assuming the original poster had problems recording because the latency > of the real-time audio feedback was confusing his rhythm - I certainly have > that problem when playing through a MIDI instrument that has excessive latency > - but indeed that was my assumption. > David: could you clarify? Are you having problems with the real-time audio > output, the behavior of the GUI or with the recorded audio? Or something else > entirely? :) I thought it was both, but I've just tested this again. Good news: the delay is only in the sound - the MIDI is transcribed to the piano-scroll without delay! This means that I can record from the keyboard effectively by muting the track and using only the sound from the keyboard itself - because the track is muted, but the click track isn't! That's good enough to be usable :-) - d. |
From: Nikos C. <re...@ar...> - 2011-09-04 14:17:31
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On 09/04/2011 01:29 PM, David Gerard wrote: > Good news: the delay is only in the sound - the MIDI is transcribed to > the piano-scroll without delay! > > This means that I can record from the keyboard effectively by muting > the track and using only the sound from the keyboard itself - because > the track is muted, but the click track isn't! > > That's good enough to be usable :-) I'll point you to JACK2 + qjackctl again because the above sounds rather ridiculous ;-D |
From: Jyothish B. <jyo...@ly...> - 2011-09-12 06:03:12
|
Agree.. You need to solve the problem rather than 'muting the problem'. This is known as latency and 'JACK' is a proven and good low latency solution. reg Jyothish Sep 4, 2011 10:17:43 AM, re...@ar... wrote: =========================================== On 09/04/2011 01:29 PM, David Gerard wrote: > Good news: the delay is only in the sound - the MIDI is transcribed to > the piano-scroll without delay! > > This means that I can record from the keyboard effectively by muting > the track and using only the sound from the keyboard itself - because > the track is muted, but the click track isn't! > > That's good enough to be usable :-) I'll point you to JACK2 + qjackctl again because the above sounds rather ridiculous ;-D ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Special Offer -- Download ArcSight Logger for FREE! Finally, a world-class log management solution at an even better price-free! And you'll get a free "Love Thy Logs" t-shirt when you download Logger. Secure your free ArcSight Logger TODAY! http://p.sf.net/sfu/arcsisghtdev2dev _______________________________________________ Lmms-users mailing list Lmm...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-users |