Re: [Kdenlive-devel] Cutting list file format specification, Version 0.02

[Christian B. <ein...@do...>]

Jason Wood schrieb:
> 
> On Saturday 18 May 2002 9:05 pm, Christian Berger wrote:
> > > > Well I don't know if we'll ever need it, but it sure is an interresting
> > > > piece of information. Maybe we should also define a "creator" command,
> > > > telling us which programm created the cutlist. Maybe also a date and
> > > > comment field. Those fields definitely are good for recovering broken
> > > > harddisks :)
> > >
> > > Of course, if you hard disk has died, recovering the cutting list is
> > > probably the least of your worries -
> >
> > Or think of undeleting files.
> 
> >From experience it's normally the video files which get accidentally deleted
> if the uninitiated are editing (what, you mean I still actually need the
> video clips? I thought I'd put it all in the project... :-)), and there isn't
> a whole lot that can be done about that except to make sure that you've got
> backups!

Oh well, then maybe we don't need file versions :)

> > > > > Secondly, I have added a couple of extra parameter value types -
> > > > > String, ID, and time and interpolation. We need to decide exactly on
> > > > > how time should be represented within the file format.
> > > >
> > > > Well I'd say we use time in milliseconds. Unless we want to be limited
> > > > to film and PAL/SECAM we have to be able to handle wiered framerates
> > > > which aren't a multiple of 0.01. We cannot really do that with
> > > > 00:00:00:00 formats.
> > >
> > > If we are likely to need, say, ten-thousandths of a second for the
> > > correct accuracy at times, then rather than milliseconds just measuring
> > > in seconds and allowing any fraction after the decimal point might be
> > > better than choosing milliseconds.
> > > Eg. 330.176215 seconds.
> >
> > This might be an idea.
> >
> > > The question is, should time be represented in
> > > hours/minutes/seconds.fraction-of-a-second, or should it be represented
> > > as just seconds.fraction-of-a-second?
> >
> > Only seconds. That hours/mintes/seconds system is braindeath, and to
> > complicated. I mean think of leap seconds and all that stuff. Besides I
> > don't see why we should base our file-format on the revolution speed of
> > a planes :)
> 
> Ummm.... I wasn't actually expecting to be editing files of a size where
> leap-seconds would need to be calculated :-) Anyway, it's not that
> complicated - you just divide the integer second part by 60 a couple of times
> to get the minutes and hours, and reverse the procedure when building it back
> up. The suggestion here is human readability over simplicity, but it's not a
> major hastle to parse - 3 numbers instead of one basically, and the
> conversion is real simple. Something like :
> 
> double returnSeconds(int hours, int minutes, double seconds)  {
>         return (hours*3600) + (minutes*60) + seconds;
> }
> 
> Again, this is a cutting list thing, not an internal thing, I would expect you
> to be working in seconds/fractions internally.

Still it would make parsing unessesarily difficult. You probably also
won't use a 00:00:00.00 format internally. And already human readable
enought since we use decimal numbers.
 
> > > The main extension that I was later thinking of for the interpolation
> > > would be some form of "freehand" ability - where you have multiple
> > > points, so instead of just [start, end], you could have [start, middle1,
> > > middle2, middle3, middle4, end]
> > >
> > > Of course, then you need to move on to the question of, "what if we don't
> > > want them all equally spaced out? How do we handle the syntax?" which is
> > > why for the moment, I think it's best to keep it simple. Since any
> > > interpolation could be handled using multiple scenes anyway, I think this
> > > is one are which shows why versions on cutting lists can come in handy!
> >
> > Well I think here my version is best, since it's a real programm we can
> > do "anything" in forth.
> 
> We can also do anything in c/c++... when it comes down to it though, the
> cutting list merely describes what is being done, it should not have anything
> to do with carrying it out.

True, but especially for the interpolitations I guess forth would make a
lot of sense. It greatly simplifies the syntax. Maybe we can define
standard programms used for certain interpolitations which can be
recogniced by the parser and then "executed" without beeing interpreted.

> I only expect to ever support three types of interpolation : linear (moving
> between two points), freehand (where the values move randomly about, and so
> we simply generate a list of values in the order they occur ), and possibly
> bezier - even this is unlikely though, as it will be just as easy to generate
> a list of freehand points as it would be to describe the interpolation as a
> language.

Well the point is, we would simply list all the points, then the number
of points and then a "freehand" command. It would do everything
properly.
 
> When the UI and cutter become sophisticated enough to actually want to handle
> other forms then we can consider moving to a more complex definition and add
> 1 to the major version number of the file format. However at present,
> whichever format is chosen, there is no need to handle anything more
> complicated than linear interpolation between two points.

Well then we have to move the format we will have lots of upgrading
problems.
 
> > > > Scenes also can have a length of less than a frame. This might be
> > > > important if you want to "fill up" scenes.
> > >
> > > ??? I don't understand this point.
> > > I would have assumed that a scene would be at least a frame, otherwise it
> > > would never get rendered by the cutter.
> >
> > Well, but it would create a space in our file format, besides it creates
> > audio.
> 
> Why would we want to create space in the file format of less than a frame? It
> would either be ignored (as the next scene writes to the same frame) or would
> lead to a gap of a frame, thus meaning that the next scene did not start at
> the time that it was supposed to (and suggesting an error on the UI or
> cutting generators part).

Imagine there beeing a short "preroll video" showing a countdown from 5
to 1, which is, for some aakward reason 3.9867 seconds long. (maybe the
video has a wiered framerate). Then we have to add filling scenes.
 
> And how does it create audio? Audio will still be measured using the same
> timings as video. If you are considering a gap where there is audio and no
> picture, then it will still be limited to a minimum of 1 frame in size -
> otherwise a gap in video will not be seen or we miss the beginning of the
> next scene.

Well the point is, we don't really have fixed length frames. So how long
is a frame?

> Something that needs considering is whether audio should be generated in the
> same cutting list as the video. Audio will obviously have to use seperate
> connections to the video, as the effects that it passes through will be
> completely different. A lot of the time, the audio will also be coming from
> completely different files to the video - and depending on the codec, may
> very well end up in a different "audio" output.

Still in many cases you need both from the same file, and in those cases
it's important those stay in sync. I would put that into the cuttig
list, too, it doesn't create to much overhead.
 
> Incidentally, that's a very good point. The codec used when editing with the
> Matrox RT2000 card uses a seperate file to store video and audio - audio
> being stored in .wav files. This is a really useful feature, because it means
> you can use any sound editor going to fiddle with the sound, normalise it,
> filter out noise, etc. etc. etc. to a much greater degree than is possible in
> a program not dedicated to sound editing (i.e. kdenlive). Following the same
> concept with the editing codec will be a very good idea.

Well this is to unsave, after those files have been copied to another
machine playback might be more difficult to do. Besides clock
frequencies of sound-cards vary. If the file is interleaved this isn't a
problem, and the worst which could happen is a click, but everything
would still be in sync. But maybe we can do both things seperately. We
just couldn't directly save to MPEG or AVI then.
 
> > > > Maybe we should somehow distinguish between file IDs and connection IDs
> > > > since I have to have a "list" of all the files being used in a scene
> > >
> > > The trouble is that once we get inside of a scene, we would then need a
> > > way to distinguish between them whilst parsing them.
> >
> > Actually we have to.
> 
> No you don't. In one case you have a file input which... generates frame
> images when asked for them and in the other case you have a connection input
> which... generates frame images when it's asked for them. From an effects
> point of view, the two should look identical. From the cutter encoders point
> of view, again, the two should look identical.

Hmm, well maybe it might work, still sounds kinda difficult.
 
> > > I think a better solution here is using C++ and making use of inheritance
> > > and polymorphism.
> >
> > Ohh well I've worked with those technices in Pascal, they might be
> > usefull, especially for the Forth interpreter. However C++ still is not
> > much more than a smart assembler.
> 
> That's what any programming language is. The whole idea of using a high level
> programming language is because it makes the programmers job easier.

You've obviously never seen Prolog :) Prolog or Lisp are languages which
are far more advanced than C. You don't even have to specify the order
of the commands to be executed. 
 
> >                                        Actually our files format can be seen
> > as a much more sophisticated language than C :)
> 
> Sorry, but that is completely false. If our file format does become anywhere
> near as complicated as any programming language then we have made a lot of
> bad design choices, because it is serving a purpose much more restrictive.
> Hell, even the formal specification for scheme is about 40/50 pages long and
> that's as simplistic a language as you can get.

Well actually Prolog is rather simplistic and you can get it down to
maybe 2-3 pages and still have enought space for long explainations.
And just look at it, C is a simple machine-near language, it doesn't
have functions for parsing, no functional programming, it doesn't even
have posibilities to parallelice it easily.
 
> >                                                                       I'd personally prefer
> > writing it in Pascal which at least has propper string handling. :)
> 
> Umm... so does C++. that's what the std::string class is for. You shouldn't
> need to work with null terminated strings ever if you don't want to.

Ohh OK, I'll see, I have a book about C++.
 
> Also there are plenty of libraries all over the place for doing complex stuff
> with strings, but our file format does not need them - that's the point - it
> is simple  to parse. If it does need to get more complex then we should
> change the format to XML and use one of the DOM's out there to do all the
> parsing work for us (incidentally, this is what the project file for the GUI
> will be doing).

Ohh I see.
 
> Actually, it might not be a bad idea for the cutting lists as well... sure as
> hell would remove all parsing hastles that we may have, commands and scenes
> become tags, parameters become elements, easily extensible... hmmm...

Well but we'd have to copy the structure several times. For example I'd
personally want to make a certain programm "structure" with objects, I
want to create a structure of objects which does all the work. That's
also he key for Forth to be fast.
 
> > > > Well about the smoothing input of the croma effect (I'd call it
> > > > cromakey) How would you define it? I mean it'S a color value.
> > >
> > > Ok, here I am thinking that this "smoothing" value determines the range
> > > of values over which the chroma works. For example, you specify a blue
> > > flatcolor image as the croma - RGB(0.0, 0.0, 0.8)
> > >
> > > We could then specify another flatcolor video as the smoothing. A higher
> > > vaue for the color indicates a wider range - effectively, any color with
> > > a value over 0.5 would mean that the value would always be chromakeyed to
> > > some degree.
> > >
> > >  The advantage of using a color is that we can specify seperate smoothing
> > > factors for the different parts of the color value. E.g., since we might
> > > want a larger range of blue colors to be accepted than their red and
> > > green components, then we might specify a flatcolor video for smoothing
> > > of say, RGB(0.05, 0.05, 0.2) (meaning a small variation in Red and Green
> > > would be cromakeyed, and a wider variation in blue would be chromakeyed).
> > > Smoothing might not be the best word here - threshold might be better.
> > >
> > > Smoothing would then just be a single value - any chroma effect would get
> > > "smeared out" a little depending on smoothing to help remove jaggies
> > > around the edge of the effect.
> >
> > I understand it. However I think we might wait with it for some time. It
> > might be to time-consuming to do, but it's definitely something we can
> > do in the future.
> 
> Nah, but implementing any of the effects we have defined is already "well in
> the future" as it is. Except perhaps the flatcolor one :-)

Ahh, let'S see.
 
> > > > Maybe we should try something like this: A forth effekt. The same
> > > > interpreter used in interpolation could calculate the whole effect.
> > > > It would be called for every pixel and it get's the pixel values of the
> > > > incoming images on the stack and leaves the outgoing pixel on top of
> > > > it. When done efficiently that wouldn't be to slow.
> > >
> > > A simple way to make effects in some semi-intereprative way would be
> > > cool.
> >
> > We can do it that way.
> 
> I would suggest that we write the UI, cutting list generator and a working
> cutter first though...

Sure, I'll try to gather more knownledge of C++ to see how I could do it
there.
 
> > Servus
> >   Casandro
> 
> Incidentally, effects should be seperated from the main cutter code, so that
> they can be reused by othr cutters - I'm thinking that seperate libraries may
> be a good plan.

Ohh I don't really like libraries. But we can do that in the future,
anyhow early versions will call external programms anyhow.

> Cheers,
> Jason

Servus
  Casandro
 
> --
> Jason Wood
> Homepage : www.uchian.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
> 
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