Thread: [Freemind-developer] Format for source file name released (Debian watch file)
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From: Eric L. <fre...@zo...> - 2008-01-13 18:40:00
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Hi, Debian offers the possibility to track the latest available version for a specific package (the so-called watch file). It was not easy to put it together so I hope we can agree to keep the following schema (more or less Perl regexp): opts=uversionmangle=s/(?<=\d)_(?=\d)/./g;s/(?<=\d).([[:alpha:]]+)/~\L$1/;s/(?<=[[:alpha:]]).(?=\d)//; \ http://sf.net/freemind/freemind-src-(\d+[._]\d+[._]\d+.?[[:alpha:]]*_?\d*).*\.tar\.gz In clear text, this means: the source file name must have the format 'freemind-src-<version>[?<phase>_<phasenum>[<addtl>]].tar.gz' where * <version> is X.Y.Z or X_Y_Z (X, Y and Z are each one or more digits) * ? is any single character, but neither a digit nor a letter. * <phase> can be any combination of letters, but is meant to be Alpha, Beta or RC (alphabetical order is important and case sensitive). * <phasenum> is a running number. * <addtl> is any string, not relevant to the version released (e.g. the Butterfly description). This implies also the following: * <version><phase> can only be released prior to <version> * there can be no release without <phase> but with <addtl> description If nobody complains, I'd like to document this on our Wiki, and of course have everybody stick to it when releasing. Thanks, Eric |
From: Dan P. <dan...@gm...> - 2008-01-14 08:38:54
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Hi, until key developers agree, this version numbering scheme remains just an unbinding proposal of a FreeMind packager. Best regards, Dan On Jan 13, 2008 7:39 PM, Eric Lavarde <fre...@zo...> wrote: > Hi, > > Debian offers the possibility to track the latest available version for > a specific package (the so-called watch file). It was not easy to put it > together so I hope we can agree to keep the following schema (more or > less Perl regexp): > > > > opts=uversionmangle=s/(?<=\d)_(?=\d)/./g;s/(?<=\d).([[:alpha:]]+)/~\L$1/;s/(?<=[[:alpha:]]).(?=\d)//; > \ > > http://sf.net/freemind/freemind-src-(\d+[._]\d+[._]\d+.?[[:alpha:]]*_?\d*).*\.tar\.gz<http://sf.net/freemind/freemind-src-%28%5Cd+%5B._%5D%5Cd+%5B._%5D%5Cd+.?%5B%5B:alpha:%5D%5D*_?%5Cd*%29.*%5C.tar%5C.gz> > > In clear text, this means: > > the source file name must have the format > 'freemind-src-<version>[?<phase>_<phasenum>[<addtl>]].tar.gz' > where > * <version> is X.Y.Z or X_Y_Z (X, Y and Z are each one or more digits) > * ? is any single character, but neither a digit nor a letter. > * <phase> can be any combination of letters, but is meant to be Alpha, > Beta or RC (alphabetical order is important and case sensitive). > * <phasenum> is a running number. > * <addtl> is any string, not relevant to the version released (e.g. the > Butterfly description). > > This implies also the following: > * <version><phase> can only be released prior to <version> > * there can be no release without <phase> but with <addtl> description > > If nobody complains, I'd like to document this on our Wiki, and of > course have everybody stick to it when releasing. > > Thanks, Eric > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. > It's the best place to buy or sell services for > just about anything Open Source. > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;164216239;13503038;w?http://sf.net/marketplace > _______________________________________________ > Freemind-developer mailing list > Fre...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freemind-developer > |
From: Dan P. <dan...@gm...> - 2008-01-14 08:54:25
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Hello Eric, also, I do not understand the subject title of this posting, meaning "Format for source file name released (Debian watch file)". Can you please explain to me what it means? Where was the format released? Who has released the format? Of what source file? Or is it of source files? Of which source files? What is "Debian watch file"? Has Debian project released something? If so, had they documented what they have released? I really have difficulties understanding both the title, and the content your posting and its significance for FreeMind project. Best regards, Dan |
From: Eric L. - F. <fre...@zo...> - 2008-01-14 12:05:45
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And this remains just a useless comment from a retiring FreeMind project director... Eric Dan Polansky said: > Hi, > > until key developers agree, this version numbering scheme remains just an > unbinding proposal of a FreeMind packager. > > Best regards, > Dan > > > On Jan 13, 2008 7:39 PM, Eric Lavarde <fre...@zo...> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Debian offers the possibility to track the latest available version for >> a specific package (the so-called watch file). It was not easy to put it >> together so I hope we can agree to keep the following schema (more or >> less Perl regexp): >> >> >> >> opts=uversionmangle=s/(?<=\d)_(?=\d)/./g;s/(?<=\d).([[:alpha:]]+)/~\L$1/;s/(?<=[[:alpha:]]).(?=\d)//; >> \ >> >> http://sf.net/freemind/freemind-src-(\d+[._]\d+[._]\d+.?[[:alpha:]]*_?\d*).*\.tar\.gz<http://sf.net/freemind/freemind-src-%28%5Cd+%5B._%5D%5Cd+%5B._%5D%5Cd+.?%5B%5B:alpha:%5D%5D*_?%5Cd*%29.*%5C.tar%5C.gz> >> >> In clear text, this means: >> >> the source file name must have the format >> 'freemind-src-<version>[?<phase>_<phasenum>[<addtl>]].tar.gz' >> where >> * <version> is X.Y.Z or X_Y_Z (X, Y and Z are each one or more digits) >> * ? is any single character, but neither a digit nor a letter. >> * <phase> can be any combination of letters, but is meant to be Alpha, >> Beta or RC (alphabetical order is important and case sensitive). >> * <phasenum> is a running number. >> * <addtl> is any string, not relevant to the version released (e.g. the >> Butterfly description). >> >> This implies also the following: >> * <version><phase> can only be released prior to <version> >> * there can be no release without <phase> but with <addtl> description >> >> If nobody complains, I'd like to document this on our Wiki, and of >> course have everybody stick to it when releasing. >> >> Thanks, Eric >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. >> It's the best place to buy or sell services for >> just about anything Open Source. >> >> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;164216239;13503038;w?http://sf.net/marketplace >> _______________________________________________ >> Freemind-developer mailing list >> Fre...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freemind-developer >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. > It's the best place to buy or sell services for > just about anything Open Source. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;164216239;13503038;w?http://sf.net/marketplace_______________________________________________ > Freemind-developer mailing list > Fre...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freemind-developer > -- Eric de France, d'Allemagne et de Navarre |
From: Dan P. <dan...@gm...> - 2008-01-14 12:18:24
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Hello Eric, what follows is about relationships, not about substance. I am the project director. In the past, I have made a substantial code contribution to the project. Dimitry is a key developer, with a big contribution to the project. Chris is the project manager, with a big contribution to the project. You are a packager. You have contributed no code and close to no other work. You are not in the position to write emails that bind people to something unless they protest. Basically, you are acting as if you were a manager, which you are not. All that you write is non-binding unless I, Dimitry and Chris agree. That is very simple. Please, keep this in mind. Please, when you make a proposal, wait for an agreement of the team. I do not want to read again from you that the team has to do something unless we protest. That is really inappropriate. Best regards, Dan |
From: Christian F. <chr...@gm...> - 2008-01-14 13:39:40
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Dear Dan and Eric, please stop these type of mails. As I see the issue, Eric described what we (and other normal projects) are already doing and I don't have obstructions so far. But Dans question remains: what the Debian service consists of is not clear to me, too. Best regards, Chris -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Datum: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:18:21 +0100 > Von: "Dan Polansky" <dan...@gm...> > An: fre...@li... > Betreff: Re: [Freemind-developer] Format for source file name released(Debian watch file) > Hello Eric, > > what follows is about relationships, not about substance. > > I am the project director. In the past, I have made a substantial code > contribution to the project. Dimitry is a key developer, with a big > contribution to the project. Chris is the project manager, with a big > contribution to the project. You are a packager. You have contributed no > code and close to no other work. > > You are not in the position to write emails that bind people to something > unless they protest. Basically, you are acting as if you were a manager, > which you are not. > > All that you write is non-binding unless I, Dimitry and Chris agree. That > is > very simple. Please, keep this in mind. Please, when you make a proposal, > wait for an agreement of the team. I do not want to read again from you > that > the team has to do something unless we protest. That is really > inappropriate. > > Best regards, > Dan -- Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger?did=10 |
From: Eric L. <fre...@zo...> - 2008-01-14 20:13:57
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Hi, Christian Foltin wrote: > Dear Dan and Eric, > > please stop these type of mails. Agree. > As I see the issue, Eric described what > we (and other normal projects) are already doing and I don't have obstructions so far. Well, correct, I only described the format of the freemind sources as it was in the past, and it was complicated enough like this due to the different changes (e.g. underscores became dots), my point was only to make sure that it wouldn't change in the future (or at least not without proper discussion). > But Dans question remains: what the Debian service consists of is not clear to me, too. In my own words: "Debian offers the possibility to track the latest available version for a specific package (the so-called watch file)." i.e. the watch file describes where and how to find the latest source version. This allows for automatic "upstream" version checking, the attached email contains a link to a possible utilization of the watch file. In the same email you'll see that the presence of a working 'watch' file is now recommended for all Java packages in Debian. Hence my request. Clear? Can we have an agreement? Thanks, Eric PS: the uscan manpage explains all the gory details about the watch file: http://dehs.alioth.debian.org/uscan.html > > Best regards, Chris |
From: Eric L. <fre...@zo...> - 2008-01-14 19:55:25
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Hello Dan, speaking of relationship, the role of a project director should be to foster a climate of motivation. In this aspect, you are not only useless but even destructive. Your opinion about my contribution remains your worthless opinion and I won't even reply to it. And for points which have next to no impact on others but are important to my work, I will continue to take the freedom to ask for passive approval. This said, Chris is of course right that this isn't the tone to speak on this list, but there are certain things I am not ready to aspect. Yours faithfully, Eric Dan Polansky wrote: > Hello Eric, > > what follows is about relationships, not about substance. > > I am the project director. In the past, I have made a substantial code > contribution to the project. Dimitry is a key developer, with a big > contribution to the project. Chris is the project manager, with a big > contribution to the project. You are a packager. You have contributed no > code and close to no other work. > > You are not in the position to write emails that bind people to > something unless they protest. Basically, you are acting as if you were > a manager, which you are not. > > All that you write is non-binding unless I, Dimitry and Chris agree. > That is very simple. Please, keep this in mind. Please, when you make a > proposal, wait for an agreement of the team. I do not want to read again > from you that the team has to do something unless we protest. That is > really inappropriate. |
From: Ray B. <ray...@co...> - 2008-01-14 20:36:19
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There is no need for this kind of comment. It is completely unprofessional. This kind of behavior will only do one thing, discourage the participation of talented people who might help us improve FreeMind. Ray Eric Lavarde - FreeMind wrote: > And this remains just a useless comment from a retiring FreeMind project > director... > > Eric > > Dan Polansky said: > >> Hi, >> >> until key developers agree, this version numbering scheme remains just an >> unbinding proposal of a FreeMind packager. >> >> Best regards, >> Dan >> >> >> On Jan 13, 2008 7:39 PM, Eric Lavarde <fre...@zo...> wrote: >> >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Debian offers the possibility to track the latest available version for >>> a specific package (the so-called watch file). It was not easy to put it >>> together so I hope we can agree to keep the following schema (more or >>> less Perl regexp): >>> >>> >>> >>> opts=uversionmangle=s/(?<=\d)_(?=\d)/./g;s/(?<=\d).([[:alpha:]]+)/~\L$1/;s/(?<=[[:alpha:]]).(?=\d)//; >>> \ >>> >>> http://sf.net/freemind/freemind-src-(\d+[._]\d+[._]\d+.?[[:alpha:]]*_?\d*).*\.tar\.gz<http://sf.net/freemind/freemind-src-%28%5Cd+%5B._%5D%5Cd+%5B._%5D%5Cd+.?%5B%5B:alpha:%5D%5D*_?%5Cd*%29.*%5C.tar%5C.gz> >>> >>> In clear text, this means: >>> >>> the source file name must have the format >>> 'freemind-src-<version>[?<phase>_<phasenum>[<addtl>]].tar.gz' >>> where >>> * <version> is X.Y.Z or X_Y_Z (X, Y and Z are each one or more digits) >>> * ? is any single character, but neither a digit nor a letter. >>> * <phase> can be any combination of letters, but is meant to be Alpha, >>> Beta or RC (alphabetical order is important and case sensitive). >>> * <phasenum> is a running number. >>> * <addtl> is any string, not relevant to the version released (e.g. the >>> Butterfly description). >>> >>> This implies also the following: >>> * <version><phase> can only be released prior to <version> >>> * there can be no release without <phase> but with <addtl> description >>> >>> If nobody complains, I'd like to document this on our Wiki, and of >>> course have everybody stick to it when releasing. >>> >>> Thanks, Eric >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. >>> It's the best place to buy or sell services for >>> just about anything Open Source. >>> >>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;164216239;13503038;w?http://sf.net/marketplace >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Freemind-developer mailing list >>> Fre...@li... >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freemind-developer >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. >> It's the best place to buy or sell services for >> just about anything Open Source. >> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;164216239;13503038;w?http://sf.net/marketplace_______________________________________________ >> Freemind-developer mailing list >> Fre...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freemind-developer >> >> > > > |
From: Dan P. <dan...@gm...> - 2008-01-14 14:02:51
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Hello Chris, I do not understand what you mean by "obstructions". Do you mean that "you have no objections"? Regards, Dan On Jan 14, 2008 2:39 PM, Christian Foltin <chr...@gm...> wrote: > Dear Dan and Eric, > > please stop these type of mails. > > As I see the issue, Eric described what > we (and other normal projects) are already doing and I don't have > obstructions so far. > But Dans question remains: what the Debian service consists of is not > clear to me, too. > > Best regards, Chris > |
From: Christian F. <chr...@gm...> - 2008-01-14 14:33:14
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Dear Dan, you are right. "Objections". AFAI understand, Eric described our current naming scheme. Regards, Chris -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Datum: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:02:51 +0100 > Von: "Dan Polansky" <dan...@gm...> > An: fre...@li... > Betreff: Re: [Freemind-developer] Format for source file name released(Debian watch file) > Hello Chris, > > I do not understand what you mean by "obstructions". Do you mean that "you > have no objections"? > > Regards, > Dan > > > On Jan 14, 2008 2:39 PM, Christian Foltin <chr...@gm...> wrote: > > > Dear Dan and Eric, > > > > please stop these type of mails. > > > > As I see the issue, Eric described what > > we (and other normal projects) are already doing and I don't have > > obstructions so far. > > But Dans question remains: what the Debian service consists of is not > > clear to me, too. > > > > Best regards, Chris > > -- GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail |
From: Dimitry P. <dpo...@gm...> - 2008-01-14 20:46:43
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Hello Eric, > Debian offers the possibility to track the latest available version for > a specific package (the so-called watch file). It was not easy to put it > together so I hope we can agree to keep the following schema (more or > less Perl regexp): ... OK with me. I have no objections either. It would be easier to understand the rules if you could add to them some examples. Dimitry |
From: Ray B. <ray...@co...> - 2008-01-14 21:02:46
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Eric, I agree that examples would make it a lot easier to understand and conform to this proposal. Ray Dimitry Polivaev wrote: > Hello Eric, > > >> Debian offers the possibility to track the latest available version for >> a specific package (the so-called watch file). It was not easy to put it >> together so I hope we can agree to keep the following schema (more or >> less Perl regexp): >> > ... > OK with me. I have no objections either. It would be easier to > understand the rules if you could add to them some examples. > > Dimitry > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. > It's the best place to buy or sell services for > just about anything Open Source. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;164216239;13503038;w?http://sf.net/marketplace > _______________________________________________ > Freemind-developer mailing list > Fre...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freemind-developer > > |
From: Dan P. <dan...@gm...> - 2008-01-15 08:22:02
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Hello Eric, I am unsure whether you understood what I meant when speaking of relationships in contrast to substance. I only meant that my mail was not addressing the merit of the thing but rather the relationships in the project. I meant that I did not discuss the version numbering scheme; I was discussing the way in which you have addressed your proposal to the team. I had found your way insolent. I have been told that relationships should be separated from the technical topic, but not ignored. I have been told that relationships should be treated too. When I have received your initial email, I felt strange. I did not understand it, I have seen no examples, and it seemed overly unprofessional, difficult to read. Also, it said that unless I protest, I am bound to something. I felt need to make this a topic of itself. I felt need to clarify that there are certain roles and relationships between people and that certain styles of communication are inappropriate. So again, it is inappropriate that you assume passive approval. I completely disagree with this. Whenenever you do it again, I declare with this email ahead that I disagreee with any of your suggestions formulated in this way. Best regards, Dan |
From: Eric L. <fre...@zo...> - 2008-01-20 13:15:44
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Hello everybody, I needed some time to think about it but I don't see the point of me spending my leasure time on FreeMind, loosing my nerves on an autocratic and arrogant project director. I would ask you to remove me from the developers' mailing list. If there are questions, feel free to contact me directly, but there are some people with whom I don't need to be in the same room or on the same mailing list. There were good times, I learned some things, and I don't regret the time involved, so thank you for this, and I wish you well, Eric Dan Polansky wrote: > Hello Eric, > > I am unsure whether you understood what I meant when speaking of > relationships in contrast to substance. I only meant that my mail was > not addressing the merit of the thing but rather the relationships in > the project. I meant that I did not discuss the version numbering > scheme; I was discussing the way in which you have addressed your > proposal to the team. I had found your way insolent. > > I have been told that relationships should be separated from the > technical topic, but not ignored. I have been told that relationships > should be treated too. > > When I have received your initial email, I felt strange. I did not > understand it, I have seen no examples, and it seemed overly > unprofessional, difficult to read. Also, it said that unless I protest, > I am bound to something. I felt need to make this a topic of itself. I > felt need to clarify that there are certain roles and relationships > between people and that certain styles of communication are inappropriate. > > So again, it is inappropriate that you assume passive approval. I > completely disagree with this. Whenenever you do it again, I declare > with this email ahead that I disagreee with any of your suggestions > formulated in this way. > > Best regards, > Dan |
From: Ray B. <ray...@co...> - 2008-01-21 13:25:17
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Eric, I'm really sorry that you're so upset. I think past history plays a big role in what's going on and that everyone here has a hard time getting past old resentments and grudges. That's too bad. You are all very talented, as is shown by the work you've managed to do together. Regardless of the resentments and bad feelings, you've all managed to work together as a team to produce some fine software. When you are already angry at someone, it is easy to misinterpret an email, which lacks emotional signals like facial expression or the tone of voice. It's also easy to take exception to things that you might ignore in a face-to-face encounter. On the other side, it's easy to write insulting comments to someone you don't have to face - one of the most unfortunate side-effects of this kind of communication. Every project leader has to be a dictator. You can't run a project as a democracy. That doesn't mean the leader should ignore the other people on the project. In fact, it's vital that he listen to their concerns and incorporate their wishes into his decisions. But in the end, one person needs to have control, or you get chaos. Because the project leader has to make decisions, he is going to make some that anger team members. He's going to make choices that some people disapprove of, because no team is ever composed of people who all think alike. I think you've both said things in email, that you might not have said in person. I also think that you have both chosen to interpret things the worst possible light, rather than accepting the possibility that you might simply have been misunderstood. My advice is that you both should apologize for the insulting remarks, and try to clarify things that were misunderstood. This started with a very minor issue, if you think about it. Don't let anger run your life. Don't let it take away something you love. Sincerely, Ray Eric Lavarde wrote: > Hello everybody, > > I needed some time to think about it but I don't see the point of me > spending my leasure time on FreeMind, loosing my nerves on an autocratic > and arrogant project director. > > I would ask you to remove me from the developers' mailing list. If there > are questions, feel free to contact me directly, but there are some > people with whom I don't need to be in the same room or on the same > mailing list. > > There were good times, I learned some things, and I don't regret the > time involved, so thank you for this, and I wish you well, > Eric > > Dan Polansky wrote: > >> Hello Eric, >> >> I am unsure whether you understood what I meant when speaking of >> relationships in contrast to substance. I only meant that my mail was >> not addressing the merit of the thing but rather the relationships in >> the project. I meant that I did not discuss the version numbering >> scheme; I was discussing the way in which you have addressed your >> proposal to the team. I had found your way insolent. >> >> I have been told that relationships should be separated from the >> technical topic, but not ignored. I have been told that relationships >> should be treated too. >> >> When I have received your initial email, I felt strange. I did not >> understand it, I have seen no examples, and it seemed overly >> unprofessional, difficult to read. Also, it said that unless I protest, >> I am bound to something. I felt need to make this a topic of itself. I >> felt need to clarify that there are certain roles and relationships >> between people and that certain styles of communication are inappropriate. >> >> So again, it is inappropriate that you assume passive approval. I >> completely disagree with this. Whenenever you do it again, I declare >> with this email ahead that I disagreee with any of your suggestions >> formulated in this way. >> >> Best regards, >> Dan >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Freemind-developer mailing list > Fre...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freemind-developer > > |
From: Eric L. <fre...@zo...> - 2008-01-21 20:14:53
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Hi Ray, I didn't want to spend too much time on this decision, because we had similar discussions in the past, and I've just got enough, life is just too short for me to face the same kind of issues in my leisure time as in my professional life. But I think, I owe you an explanation in your effort to solve things. So, here it is: 1. In real life, I'm a project manager, and quite good at it. I won't share my rankings, you will have to trust me on this point. I'm used to have 10 to 20 people working for me without me having much "hierarchical power" over them because they come from different organizations within the company, i.e. I can only use "management by influence" to get things my way. And it appears that it's a setup very comparable to the Open Source environment. I'm not saying that in order to get a job, but to show that I think I know what I'm talking about. 2. I definitely do not agree with the statement that a project manager/leader needs to be a dictator, on the contrary. I take often decisions, but I argument them, and I do my best to only take them if nobody else can take them, and to make it clear that I'm ready to revise my decision if someone comes with good arguments. My role as a project manager is not to take decisions, but to make sure that decisions are taken, if possible the right ones (just joking!). 3. "If nobody else can take them" is just about delegation: if you're responsible for a piece of work, you've got also the right, and the duty, to take the decisions required for this piece of work. As a project manager, I possibly need to be informed and might have concerns if those decisions have an impact on other aspects of the project, but else I'm happy if I don't need to look into everything. 4. And, last but not least, each member of a project is important, and has the right to get his/her work respected. To take a picture from our society, the garbageman is not very highly considered but it stinks when he stops working, and he has the right to be respected, and he has (let's face reality, he should have) the right to take the decisions necessary for his job. Back to our project: I don't have a problem to be the garbagem... eeh package-man of this project, but I want my work to be respected, and when a decision needs to be taken concerning this aspect of the work, I inform everybody and ask for confirmation but I expect that it remains a formality, especially if it doesn't influence anybody else. Mind you, if someone has arguments or needs clarification, I don't have an issue, but Dan's reaction was far beyond this. So, I've taken my time to take my decision, I don't think I've misunderstood Dan, we've had similar arguments in the past, and Dan didn't improve on these aspects, which have already been brought to him, so I don't change anything to my statements about his behavior, and I don't revise my decision to stop working under his so-called leadership. Have nonetheless a good night/evening/morning/day, Eric Ray Benjamin wrote: > Eric, > > I'm really sorry that you're so upset. I think past history plays a big > role in what's going on and that everyone here has a hard time getting > past old resentments and grudges. That's too bad. You are all very > talented, as is shown by the work you've managed to do together. > Regardless of the resentments and bad feelings, you've all managed to > work together as a team to produce some fine software. > > When you are already angry at someone, it is easy to misinterpret an > email, which lacks emotional signals like facial expression or the tone > of voice. It's also easy to take exception to things that you might > ignore in a face-to-face encounter. On the other side, it's easy to > write insulting comments to someone you don't have to face - one of the > most unfortunate side-effects of this kind of communication. > > Every project leader has to be a dictator. You can't run a project as a > democracy. That doesn't mean the leader should ignore the other people > on the project. In fact, it's vital that he listen to their concerns and > incorporate their wishes into his decisions. But in the end, one person > needs to have control, or you get chaos. Because the project leader has > to make decisions, he is going to make some that anger team members. > He's going to make choices that some people disapprove of, because no > team is ever composed of people who all think alike. > > I think you've both said things in email, that you might not have said > in person. I also think that you have both chosen to interpret things > the worst possible light, rather than accepting the possibility that you > might simply have been misunderstood. My advice is that you both should > apologize for the insulting remarks, and try to clarify things that were > misunderstood. > > This started with a very minor issue, if you think about it. Don't let > anger run your life. Don't let it take away something you love. > Sincerely, > Ray > > Eric Lavarde wrote: >> Hello everybody, >> >> I needed some time to think about it but I don't see the point of me >> spending my leasure time on FreeMind, loosing my nerves on an autocratic >> and arrogant project director. >> >> I would ask you to remove me from the developers' mailing list. If there >> are questions, feel free to contact me directly, but there are some >> people with whom I don't need to be in the same room or on the same >> mailing list. >> >> There were good times, I learned some things, and I don't regret the >> time involved, so thank you for this, and I wish you well, >> Eric >> >> Dan Polansky wrote: >> >>> Hello Eric, >>> >>> I am unsure whether you understood what I meant when speaking of >>> relationships in contrast to substance. I only meant that my mail was >>> not addressing the merit of the thing but rather the relationships in >>> the project. I meant that I did not discuss the version numbering >>> scheme; I was discussing the way in which you have addressed your >>> proposal to the team. I had found your way insolent. >>> >>> I have been told that relationships should be separated from the >>> technical topic, but not ignored. I have been told that relationships >>> should be treated too. >>> >>> When I have received your initial email, I felt strange. I did not >>> understand it, I have seen no examples, and it seemed overly >>> unprofessional, difficult to read. Also, it said that unless I protest, >>> I am bound to something. I felt need to make this a topic of itself. I >>> felt need to clarify that there are certain roles and relationships >>> between people and that certain styles of communication are inappropriate. >>> >>> So again, it is inappropriate that you assume passive approval. I >>> completely disagree with this. Whenenever you do it again, I declare >>> with this email ahead that I disagreee with any of your suggestions >>> formulated in this way. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Dan |
From: Ray B. <ray...@co...> - 2008-01-21 20:34:30
|
Eric, I'm sorry to see you go. I can understand being fed up with a situation that makes you crazy. The project will be poorer without you. I've been in a similar situation as the one you are in now. It was a very difficult, but rewarding job. Ultimately, it was frustrating, because, like you, I disagreed with how things were being managed, and like you, I wound up leaving. Since Dan has said he'll be leaving the position of project manager, I hope you'll think about getting involved again at a later date. I think I stated my opinion badly, perhaps. What I meant was that someone in the project has to have the final say. That's mostly what I meant by not being able to have a democracy. I didn't mean that the project manager should run rough shod over others in the groups or their feelings. As you've pointed out, it's important to listen to people and accept persuasive arguments. I've only been here a brief time, so I don't know how well Dan has done at that. I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong. Thank you for taking the time to answer my concerns. I wish you well in all you do. Sincerely, Ray Eric Lavarde wrote: > Hi Ray, > > I didn't want to spend too much time on this decision, because we had > similar discussions in the past, and I've just got enough, life is just > too short for me to face the same kind of issues in my leisure time as > in my professional life. > But I think, I owe you an explanation in your effort to solve things. > > So, here it is: > > 1. In real life, I'm a project manager, and quite good at it. I won't > share my rankings, you will have to trust me on this point. I'm used to > have 10 to 20 people working for me without me having much "hierarchical > power" over them because they come from different organizations within > the company, i.e. I can only use "management by influence" to get things > my way. And it appears that it's a setup very comparable to the Open > Source environment. I'm not saying that in order to get a job, but to > show that I think I know what I'm talking about. > > 2. I definitely do not agree with the statement that a project > manager/leader needs to be a dictator, on the contrary. I take often > decisions, but I argument them, and I do my best to only take them if > nobody else can take them, and to make it clear that I'm ready to revise > my decision if someone comes with good arguments. My role as a project > manager is not to take decisions, but to make sure that decisions are > taken, if possible the right ones (just joking!). > > 3. "If nobody else can take them" is just about delegation: if you're > responsible for a piece of work, you've got also the right, and the > duty, to take the decisions required for this piece of work. As a > project manager, I possibly need to be informed and might have concerns > if those decisions have an impact on other aspects of the project, but > else I'm happy if I don't need to look into everything. > > 4. And, last but not least, each member of a project is important, and > has the right to get his/her work respected. To take a picture from our > society, the garbageman is not very highly considered but it stinks when > he stops working, and he has the right to be respected, and he has > (let's face reality, he should have) the right to take the decisions > necessary for his job. > > Back to our project: I don't have a problem to be the garbagem... eeh > package-man of this project, but I want my work to be respected, and > when a decision needs to be taken concerning this aspect of the work, I > inform everybody and ask for confirmation but I expect that it remains a > formality, especially if it doesn't influence anybody else. Mind you, if > someone has arguments or needs clarification, I don't have an issue, but > Dan's reaction was far beyond this. > > So, I've taken my time to take my decision, I don't think I've > misunderstood Dan, we've had similar arguments in the past, and Dan > didn't improve on these aspects, which have already been brought to him, > so I don't change anything to my statements about his behavior, and I > don't revise my decision to stop working under his so-called leadership. > > Have nonetheless a good night/evening/morning/day, > Eric > > Ray Benjamin wrote: > >> Eric, >> >> I'm really sorry that you're so upset. I think past history plays a big >> role in what's going on and that everyone here has a hard time getting >> past old resentments and grudges. That's too bad. You are all very >> talented, as is shown by the work you've managed to do together. >> Regardless of the resentments and bad feelings, you've all managed to >> work together as a team to produce some fine software. >> >> When you are already angry at someone, it is easy to misinterpret an >> email, which lacks emotional signals like facial expression or the tone >> of voice. It's also easy to take exception to things that you might >> ignore in a face-to-face encounter. On the other side, it's easy to >> write insulting comments to someone you don't have to face - one of the >> most unfortunate side-effects of this kind of communication. >> >> Every project leader has to be a dictator. You can't run a project as a >> democracy. That doesn't mean the leader should ignore the other people >> on the project. In fact, it's vital that he listen to their concerns and >> incorporate their wishes into his decisions. But in the end, one person >> needs to have control, or you get chaos. Because the project leader has >> to make decisions, he is going to make some that anger team members. >> He's going to make choices that some people disapprove of, because no >> team is ever composed of people who all think alike. >> >> I think you've both said things in email, that you might not have said >> in person. I also think that you have both chosen to interpret things >> the worst possible light, rather than accepting the possibility that you >> might simply have been misunderstood. My advice is that you both should >> apologize for the insulting remarks, and try to clarify things that were >> misunderstood. >> >> This started with a very minor issue, if you think about it. Don't let >> anger run your life. Don't let it take away something you love. >> Sincerely, >> Ray >> >> Eric Lavarde wrote: >> >>> Hello everybody, >>> >>> I needed some time to think about it but I don't see the point of me >>> spending my leasure time on FreeMind, loosing my nerves on an autocratic >>> and arrogant project director. >>> >>> I would ask you to remove me from the developers' mailing list. If there >>> are questions, feel free to contact me directly, but there are some >>> people with whom I don't need to be in the same room or on the same >>> mailing list. >>> >>> There were good times, I learned some things, and I don't regret the >>> time involved, so thank you for this, and I wish you well, >>> Eric >>> >>> Dan Polansky wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Hello Eric, >>>> >>>> I am unsure whether you understood what I meant when speaking of >>>> relationships in contrast to substance. I only meant that my mail was >>>> not addressing the merit of the thing but rather the relationships in >>>> the project. I meant that I did not discuss the version numbering >>>> scheme; I was discussing the way in which you have addressed your >>>> proposal to the team. I had found your way insolent. >>>> >>>> I have been told that relationships should be separated from the >>>> technical topic, but not ignored. I have been told that relationships >>>> should be treated too. >>>> >>>> When I have received your initial email, I felt strange. I did not >>>> understand it, I have seen no examples, and it seemed overly >>>> unprofessional, difficult to read. Also, it said that unless I protest, >>>> I am bound to something. I felt need to make this a topic of itself. I >>>> felt need to clarify that there are certain roles and relationships >>>> between people and that certain styles of communication are inappropriate. >>>> >>>> So again, it is inappropriate that you assume passive approval. I >>>> completely disagree with this. Whenenever you do it again, I declare >>>> with this email ahead that I disagreee with any of your suggestions >>>> formulated in this way. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Dan >>>> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Freemind-developer mailing list > Fre...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freemind-developer > > |
From: Christian F. (GMX) <chr...@gm...> - 2008-01-20 21:36:18
|
Dear Dan, I'm not amused. Please do you best, to correct this situation. Thanks, Chris Eric Lavarde schrieb: > Hello everybody, > > I needed some time to think about it but I don't see the point of me > spending my leasure time on FreeMind, loosing my nerves on an autocratic > and arrogant project director. > > I would ask you to remove me from the developers' mailing list. If there > are questions, feel free to contact me directly, but there are some > people with whom I don't need to be in the same room or on the same > mailing list. > > There were good times, I learned some things, and I don't regret the > time involved, so thank you for this, and I wish you well, > Eric > > Dan Polansky wrote: > >> Hello Eric, >> >> I am unsure whether you understood what I meant when speaking of >> relationships in contrast to substance. I only meant that my mail was >> not addressing the merit of the thing but rather the relationships in >> the project. I meant that I did not discuss the version numbering >> scheme; I was discussing the way in which you have addressed your >> proposal to the team. I had found your way insolent. >> >> I have been told that relationships should be separated from the >> technical topic, but not ignored. I have been told that relationships >> should be treated too. >> >> When I have received your initial email, I felt strange. I did not >> understand it, I have seen no examples, and it seemed overly >> unprofessional, difficult to read. Also, it said that unless I protest, >> I am bound to something. I felt need to make this a topic of itself. I >> felt need to clarify that there are certain roles and relationships >> between people and that certain styles of communication are inappropriate. >> >> So again, it is inappropriate that you assume passive approval. I >> completely disagree with this. Whenenever you do it again, I declare >> with this email ahead that I disagreee with any of your suggestions >> formulated in this way. >> >> Best regards, >> Dan >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Freemind-developer mailing list > Fre...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freemind-developer > > |
From: Dimitri P. <dpo...@gm...> - 2008-01-21 10:15:15
|
Dear Dan, I abstained from commenting your mails on Eric before now because I wanted to avoid escalation. Now I want to make clear that I like neither the position you have expressed nor the communication style you have used. IMHO the main rensponsibility of project director is the integrity of the team. A role project director does not necessarily mean being a usability specialist, quality assurance, software architect, designer, developer, document writer, packager etc. This role is solely responsible for the project team feeling good and people want to communicate and to contribute. In the couple of weeks your mails have coursed the opposite: one of the oldest and the most valueable team members has expressed a wish to leave the team. It is a very bad news. And now I expect that you find a way to make him comfortable with you and get him back or that you resign from the position of the project director now. Best regards, Dimitry -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Datum: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:36:16 +0100 > Von: "Christian Foltin (GMX)" <chr...@gm...> > An: fre...@li... > Betreff: Re: [Freemind-developer] Quitting Format for source file name released (Debian watch file) > Dear Dan, > > I'm not amused. Please do you best, to correct this situation. > > Thanks, Chris > > Eric Lavarde schrieb: > > Hello everybody, > > > > I needed some time to think about it but I don't see the point of me > > spending my leasure time on FreeMind, loosing my nerves on an autocratic > > and arrogant project director. > > > > I would ask you to remove me from the developers' mailing list. If there > > are questions, feel free to contact me directly, but there are some > > people with whom I don't need to be in the same room or on the same > > mailing list. > > > > There were good times, I learned some things, and I don't regret the > > time involved, so thank you for this, and I wish you well, > > Eric > > > > Dan Polansky wrote: > > > >> Hello Eric, > >> > >> I am unsure whether you understood what I meant when speaking of > >> relationships in contrast to substance. I only meant that my mail was > >> not addressing the merit of the thing but rather the relationships in > >> the project. I meant that I did not discuss the version numbering > >> scheme; I was discussing the way in which you have addressed your > >> proposal to the team. I had found your way insolent. > >> > >> I have been told that relationships should be separated from the > >> technical topic, but not ignored. I have been told that relationships > >> should be treated too. > >> > >> When I have received your initial email, I felt strange. I did not > >> understand it, I have seen no examples, and it seemed overly > >> unprofessional, difficult to read. Also, it said that unless I protest, > >> I am bound to something. I felt need to make this a topic of itself. I > >> felt need to clarify that there are certain roles and relationships > >> between people and that certain styles of communication are > inappropriate. > >> > >> So again, it is inappropriate that you assume passive approval. I > >> completely disagree with this. Whenenever you do it again, I declare > >> with this email ahead that I disagreee with any of your suggestions > >> formulated in this way. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Dan > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. > > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Freemind-developer mailing list > > Fre...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freemind-developer > > > > |