From: Daniel L. <ma...@co...> - 2015-04-11 19:06:00
|
One nice thing about oozes: they let venom mages learn early that they need more than venom. -daniel On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 02:36:33PM -0400, Jesse Luehrs wrote: > I agree. I don't think there's really anything that needs to be changed > at this point. I think having a couple slow monsters around in the early > game (like oozes/worms/goliath beetles) is good because it encourages > people to think about tactics other than "keep pressing tab until it > dies", and as PleasingFungus said, pretty much everything else has some > kind of thing that makes them okay. Oozes are probably the least > interesting currently, because they overlap with worms, and don't have > the disproportionate (for their depth) damage that worms and goliath > beetles have - if we're going to change something, they could probably > stand an upgrade. > > -doy > > On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 09:56:36AM -0700, Nicholas Feinberg wrote: > > That list is more misleading than useful - almost all of those monsters > > have some relevant quirk... > > > > As of 0.16, the only derived undead (skeletons/zombies/simulacrula) that > > generate in D are those that are at least 10 speed (adder zombies, centaur > > skeletons, etc); I don't think there's much need for further changes there. > > > > Iron/earth monsters only appear in vaults or spell effects; in both cases > > there's no need to change them. > > > > The remaining 'problem' monsters are ooze, worm, goliath beetle, and boring > > beetle. Boring beetles seems useful for vaults but I'm fine with removing > > them from generation; oozescan probably be upgraded to 10 speed. A while > > back I suggested reducing worms' max HP and giving them fast regen (thus > > making it impractical to murder them with tedious tactics); I still think > > this is viable. For goliath beetles, one could perhaps do something similar > > by decreasing mhp/increasing AC? Maybe? > > > > Anyway, I think there is very little of this 'problem' left; we've been > > chipping away at it for a while now and it's very nearly gone. > > > > On 11 April 2015 at 08:38, David Ploog <dp...@mi...> wrote: > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > With 0.16 out, I'd like to bring up a topic that might yield a quicj > > > improvement of the game: slow moving monsters. > > > > > > The concern is that a generic, slow moving monster is a bad opponent in > > > Crawl. You can kite it, or completely ignore it, and it only ever has a > > > chance of being meaningful if some other monsters are around. We shouldn't > > > throw such monsters at players, it has no meaning -- you could say these > > > are flavour-only monsters. > > > > > > Of course, a slow monster can work perfectly well if it has something on > > > top of its low speed. > > > > > > Suggestion > > > Step 1: All monsters we agree on to have no reasonable perk countering > > > their slow movement get upgraded to standard speed. > > > Step 2: Monsters that we're unhappy with afterwards at speed 10 (e.g. > > > worms) get removed. > > > > > > Concretely, I suggest to upgrade skeletons, zombies, simulacra and all > > > iron/earth monsters to standard speed and to remove worms, and melee-only > > > snails/beetles. > > > I am fine with the slow uniques and monsters like queen ant or ushabti. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > David > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is a list from mon-data.h of all monsters with speed < 10:or a > > > MOVE_ENERGY penalty (I might have missed some, e.g. where's torpor > > > snails?): > > > > > > 7 queen ant > > > 8 shambling mangrove > > > 8 snapping turtle (swim) > > > 8 alligator snapping turtle (swim) > > > 6 worm > > > 8 giant leech (swim) > > > 4 elephant slug > > > 8 crawling corpse > > > 5 macabre mass > > > 5 goliath beetle > > > 6 boulder beetle > > > 6 boring beetle > > > 7 cyclops > > > 8 iron dragon > > > 6 earth elemental > > > 6 iron elemental > > > 3 giant eyeball > > > 7 shining eye > > > 7 eye of devastation > > > 8 ooze > > > 6 mummy > > > 8 guardian mummy > > > 8 greater mummy > > > 8 mummy priest > > > (14) naga (plain, sharpshooter, ritualist, warrior, greater) > > > 7 iron troll > > > 5 zombie > > > 5 skeleton > > > 7 simulacrum > > > 7 spectral thing > > > 8 iron imp > > > 7 iron golem > > > 8 ushabti > > > 5 Gastronok > > > 8 Menkaure > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > BPM Camp - Free Virtual Workshop May 6th at 10am PDT/1PM EDT > > > Develop your own process in accordance with the BPMN 2 standard > > > Learn Process modeling best practices with Bonita BPM through live > > > exercises > > > http://www.bonitasoft.com/be-part-of-it/events/bpm-camp-virtual- > > > event?utm_ > > > source=Sourceforge_BPM_Camp_5_6_15&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=VA_SF > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Crawl-ref-discuss mailing list > > > Cra...@li... > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/crawl-ref-discuss > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > BPM Camp - Free Virtual Workshop May 6th at 10am PDT/1PM EDT > > Develop your own process in accordance with the BPMN 2 standard > > Learn Process modeling best practices with Bonita BPM through live exercises > > http://www.bonitasoft.com/be-part-of-it/events/bpm-camp-virtual- event?utm_ > > source=Sourceforge_BPM_Camp_5_6_15&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=VA_SF > > > _______________________________________________ > > Crawl-ref-discuss mailing list > > Cra...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/crawl-ref-discuss > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > BPM Camp - Free Virtual Workshop May 6th at 10am PDT/1PM EDT > Develop your own process in accordance with the BPMN 2 standard > Learn Process modeling best practices with Bonita BPM through live exercises > http://www.bonitasoft.com/be-part-of-it/events/bpm-camp-virtual- event?utm_ > source=Sourceforge_BPM_Camp_5_6_15&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=VA_SF > _______________________________________________ > Crawl-ref-discuss mailing list > Cra...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/crawl-ref-discuss -- Daniel Ligon ma...@co... |