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From: Björn C. <bj...@ca...> - 2009-10-07 19:11:03
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Time for me to enter the debate. For me it has been clear from the start what the licensing was and what that meant to me. I saw it as a good thing that everybody that what to get the benefit of other peoples work had to contribute them self. That is what open source is about in my opinion. I have been working on a JavaME compatibility library for the iPhone for a couple of moths and intended to contribute it to XMLVM when I had cleaned it up. If other people contribute code I get the benefit from it and we can all make money on selling the iPhone app. I am ok with that some contribute a little and others a lot. There is no absolute justice. However if there is a monetary contribution all of it goes to the core team and nothing to the others (me). This is nothing unique for XMLVM, others have dual licensing but I have always wondered why anyone would contribute to such a project!. From being very positive I am now reconsidering my contribution to XMLVM. /Björn |
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From: Sascha H. <sa...@xm...> - 2009-10-07 18:27:18
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A few notes to the points you two made: We try not to talk about specific money values here because it really depends on each case we think. If you put out an app for free and you have some reason for why you don't want to make it OpenSource, then expecting a similar contribution as from someone who actually wants to make money from an XMLVM compiled project is not fair. This is why we say: Just talk to us and we will find a way to make it work. Again, we don't want to present any roadblocks for people that want to use XMLVM. Keep in mind that buying a Mac Mini is not the only investment. You need to know Obj-C and the iPhone SDK well or you need to hire a developer for this. Then the actual cost goes up quite a bit. Also consider that using XMLVM you will be able to launch one app on multiple platforms more easily. Imagine the following scenario: You write your app once for Android, and with the help of XMLVM you can launch that same app on the iPhone/iPod and the Palm Pre with only a little bit of manual work. This way you reach a lot more users with only a little bit more effort. This is one of the visions that drives us right now. And the goal is to reduce the effort of manual work as much as possible. And yes, we are nowhere near completeness at this point. Also keep in mind that XMLVM is not a business that tries to make money. This is important to keep in mind when we talk about contributions. We are happy about code just as much as we are about money. @Jeff: We will definitely include all the points that are unclear on our site within the next days and weeks. We know that we don't explain our licensing model in enough detail right now and it is of our highest priority to fix this. We will anounce the changes on the list so you guys can review it. Thanks // Sascha On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 6:50 PM, Jeff Norman <not...@gm...>wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 12:30 PM, blake miller <bla...@gm...>wrote: > >> I'm thinking $100 donation for each application written using XMLVM. >> I'm trying to think about what is reasonable for both parties. At >> that price, it is worth it to ME. Right now the project is still >> buggy, and several features that are necessary to build a usable >> application are lacking. When you get into the $300 donation range, >> as a developer, it's better to spend that $300 on a mac mini (which I >> know is probably more near the $500 range), learn Cocoa Touch and >> Obj-C, and have the whole API available, along with the original >> simulator. No concerns about, will this work on the actual device or >> not. Testing on the device immediately available. >> >> But of course, the key feature of the project is to develop in your >> favorite language. You can't get that anywhere else as far as I can >> see (for native applications written in Windows). >> >> But that reminds me, I'm going to need a mac mini(or a good friend) >> anyway to compile the Obj-C code that XMLVM generates. I probably >> would not invest more than $200 in contribution to the project. I >> would offer up my coding skills, but I'm not the greatest coder, and >> I've not yet gotten how the whole project works under my grasp. >> >> But think of this...I mentioned to a couple of my buddies last night >> that I was developing an iPhone application in Java. They both are >> long-time Java developers. They just looked at me wide-eyed and said >> "Whhaaaat?". You may not have even begun to tap the market, and if >> you did, even at $100 or $200 per app, you could make a fortune it >> seems. >> >> Just my thoughts. >> >> > A mature GPL/commercial system with a similar goals (write once, run on > many mobile systems) utilizing a Ruby framework is charging $500/app. > Interesting to note that they're seeing some commercial success with this > approach. Check out http://rhomobile.com for details. > > If I have any comments on the whole xmlvm licensing matter (not that > anybody asked ;) ), it's the following two points: > > 1) I think that the nature of the code produced by cross-compiling iPhone > (and other framework?) apps--specifically their inclusion of GPL bridge > code--should be clearly stated in the License section of the > http://xmlvm.org/download/ page. Normally, if I came across a GPL > "compiler", I would assume that any output of the software would be of my > own licensing, not affected by the compiler's license due to some > intricacies of how things are implemented. > > 2) The download page should also state the version (v2) of the GPL license > that is in use, as GPLv3 is vastly different, asnd currently requires > download browsing of the subversion repo to discover. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > _______________________________________________ > xmlvm-users mailing list > xml...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users > > |
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From: Jeff N. <not...@gm...> - 2009-10-07 16:50:58
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On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 12:30 PM, blake miller <bla...@gm...>wrote: > I'm thinking $100 donation for each application written using XMLVM. > I'm trying to think about what is reasonable for both parties. At > that price, it is worth it to ME. Right now the project is still > buggy, and several features that are necessary to build a usable > application are lacking. When you get into the $300 donation range, > as a developer, it's better to spend that $300 on a mac mini (which I > know is probably more near the $500 range), learn Cocoa Touch and > Obj-C, and have the whole API available, along with the original > simulator. No concerns about, will this work on the actual device or > not. Testing on the device immediately available. > > But of course, the key feature of the project is to develop in your > favorite language. You can't get that anywhere else as far as I can > see (for native applications written in Windows). > > But that reminds me, I'm going to need a mac mini(or a good friend) > anyway to compile the Obj-C code that XMLVM generates. I probably > would not invest more than $200 in contribution to the project. I > would offer up my coding skills, but I'm not the greatest coder, and > I've not yet gotten how the whole project works under my grasp. > > But think of this...I mentioned to a couple of my buddies last night > that I was developing an iPhone application in Java. They both are > long-time Java developers. They just looked at me wide-eyed and said > "Whhaaaat?". You may not have even begun to tap the market, and if > you did, even at $100 or $200 per app, you could make a fortune it > seems. > > Just my thoughts. > > A mature GPL/commercial system with a similar goals (write once, run on many mobile systems) utilizing a Ruby framework is charging $500/app. Interesting to note that they're seeing some commercial success with this approach. Check out http://rhomobile.com for details. If I have any comments on the whole xmlvm licensing matter (not that anybody asked ;) ), it's the following two points: 1) I think that the nature of the code produced by cross-compiling iPhone (and other framework?) apps--specifically their inclusion of GPL bridge code--should be clearly stated in the License section of the http://xmlvm.org/download/ page. Normally, if I came across a GPL "compiler", I would assume that any output of the software would be of my own licensing, not affected by the compiler's license due to some intricacies of how things are implemented. 2) The download page should also state the version (v2) of the GPL license that is in use, as GPLv3 is vastly different, asnd currently requires download browsing of the subversion repo to discover. |
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From: blake m. <bla...@gm...> - 2009-10-07 16:31:06
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I'm thinking $100 donation for each application written using XMLVM. I'm trying to think about what is reasonable for both parties. At that price, it is worth it to ME. Right now the project is still buggy, and several features that are necessary to build a usable application are lacking. When you get into the $300 donation range, as a developer, it's better to spend that $300 on a mac mini (which I know is probably more near the $500 range), learn Cocoa Touch and Obj-C, and have the whole API available, along with the original simulator. No concerns about, will this work on the actual device or not. Testing on the device immediately available. But of course, the key feature of the project is to develop in your favorite language. You can't get that anywhere else as far as I can see (for native applications written in Windows). But that reminds me, I'm going to need a mac mini(or a good friend) anyway to compile the Obj-C code that XMLVM generates. I probably would not invest more than $200 in contribution to the project. I would offer up my coding skills, but I'm not the greatest coder, and I've not yet gotten how the whole project works under my grasp. But think of this...I mentioned to a couple of my buddies last night that I was developing an iPhone application in Java. They both are long-time Java developers. They just looked at me wide-eyed and said "Whhaaaat?". You may not have even begun to tap the market, and if you did, even at $100 or $200 per app, you could make a fortune it seems. Just my thoughts. On 10/7/09, xml...@li... <xml...@li...> wrote: > Send xmlvm-users mailing list submissions to > xml...@li... > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > xml...@li... > > You can reach the person managing the list at > xml...@li... > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of xmlvm-users digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Licence issues (Arno Puder) > 2. Re: Licence issues (Panayotis Katsaloulis) > 3. Re: Licence issues (Gergely Kis) > 4. Re: Licence issues (Sascha Haeberling) > 5. Re: Licence issues (Gergely Kis) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 14:51:47 +0200 > From: Arno Puder <ar...@pu...> > Subject: Re: [xmlvm-users] Licence issues > To: xml...@li... > Message-ID: <4AC...@pu...> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > > I personally am absolutely fine to discuss this in public. For > "contribution" we don't just assume fees but also code contributions. In > some cases this is difficult: is a 1000 line patch always more worth > than 100 lines? Certainly not. Does a one line patch to fix a bug > already qualify to grant the linking exception? I'm inclined to say no. > But I'd be more than happy to get feedback from you guys on what you > consider to be a fair contribution in return for granting a linking > exception. As I said before, we want XMLVM to succeed. So, suggestions > please! > > Arno > > > Panayotis Katsaloulis wrote: >> On 07 ??? 2009, at 2:10 ??, Arno Puder wrote: >> >>> Guys, >> >> ... >> >>> We understand that >>> there is no clear definition of "contribution" at this point. But rest >>> assured that we are interested in XMLVM to succeed. I am sure that if >>> you want to use XMLVM for a commercial product, we will find some >>> common >>> ground. We have already issued several of these linking exceptions to >>> contributors. >>> >> >> Right, that's the main reason for the discussion. >> What exactly someone should give back, if he can't / is not allowed >> to give back the source code of his application. >> >> I understand that usually is per-user basis, since other things will >> be required from a large company who wants to massively develop >> applications for both android & iphone, and other for an individual >> who simply wants to create a couple of applications. >> >> But, please, give us some hints. >> >> if someone of the core developers doesn't want to discuss this in >> public, I am open to private conversations. >> >> Thank you >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA >> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your >> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay >> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference >> _______________________________________________ >> xmlvm-users mailing list >> xml...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 16:29:04 +0300 > From: Panayotis Katsaloulis <pan...@pa...> > Subject: Re: [xmlvm-users] Licence issues > To: xml...@li... > Message-ID: <EB6...@pa...> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > > On 07 ??? 2009, at 3:51 ??, Arno Puder wrote: > >> >> I personally am absolutely fine to discuss this in public. For >> "contribution" we don't just assume fees but also code >> contributions. In >> some cases this is difficult: is a 1000 line patch always more worth >> than 100 lines? Certainly not. Does a one line patch to fix a bug >> already qualify to grant the linking exception? I'm inclined to say >> no. >> But I'd be more than happy to get feedback from you guys on what you >> consider to be a fair contribution in return for granting a linking >> exception. As I said before, we want XMLVM to succeed. So, suggestions >> please! >> >> Arno >> > > Talking about myself, I believe that I am fluent in both Java and Obj- > C languages. > Still, not being stuck to a macintosh environment (although everywhere > in my house and at work I have macs) AND being able to code in my > favorite language is what caught my attention to this project. > > I had a look at the source code too and saw that it was quite clever > what you've done. Well done! > > My idea was first to make sure that this project worths it and I > probably use it in my future projects and then of course give back to > whatever I did to improve this library. > For example I was thinking about saving/loading (since I saw that this > API is not supported yet). > Or create some automatic scripts to make development of iphone/android > applications with e.g. Netbeans a straight forward thing. Or have a > look what it should be done so signing of applications will be as easy > as with the xcode tool. > > That is what it crossed my mind, but first (as I said) I had to make > sure that it worths it and I can really use it with my software. > > Don't get me wrong, after long discussions for example in other lists > of other projects (which I prefer not to mention here, in public), I > was sometimes disappointed by the people who own a project. > Yes, it's their project. Yes, they've spent some time with it. Yes, > they deserve some things back. > But this doesn't give them the right to be arrogant and not > communicative. > > On the contrary, I can now clearly see that the core developers of > this project are really communicative, helpful and willing to find > solutions. > > So, in other words, I am convinced now. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 16:14:04 +0200 > From: Gergely Kis <ger...@ma...> > Subject: Re: [xmlvm-users] Licence issues > To: xml...@li... > Message-ID: > <2f9...@ma...> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > 2009/10/7 Gergely Kis <ger...@ma...> > >> Hi, >> >> I have a few thoughts (not terribly organized): >> - it would be nice to have a commercial entity who owns the code legally. >> Right now the CLAs have to be addressed to you (Arno Puder) personally. >> This >> could be a problem for potential contributor businesses. >> > Ok, I was wrong here. It just needs to be sent to your address, but > addressed to XMLVM, which is not a legal entity as far as I know. So I think > my point is still valid. > > Best Regards, > Gergely > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 16:47:54 +0200 > From: Sascha Haeberling <sa...@xm...> > Subject: Re: [xmlvm-users] Licence issues > To: Gergely Kis <ger...@ma...> > Cc: xml...@li... > Message-ID: > <709...@ma...> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > This is actually a good point Gergely, thanks for mentioning it. So far we > thought, if we write (C) XMLVM and then mention in a COPYING or LICENSE file > who the people are that "own" XMLVM that should be enough. But I might be > wrong and would like to figure this out. Do you think the only way to do > this properly is to create a legal entity (like a company)? > Maybe you have some pointers for us, that would be great. > > Thanks > // Sascha > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Gergely Kis <ger...@ma...>wrote: > >> >> >> 2009/10/7 Gergely Kis <ger...@ma...> >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I have a few thoughts (not terribly organized): >>> - it would be nice to have a commercial entity who owns the code legally. >>> Right now the CLAs have to be addressed to you (Arno Puder) personally. >>> This >>> could be a problem for potential contributor businesses. >>> >> Ok, I was wrong here. It just needs to be sent to your address, but >> addressed to XMLVM, which is not a legal entity as far as I know. So I >> think >> my point is still valid. >> >> Best Regards, >> Gergely >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA >> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your >> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay >> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference >> _______________________________________________ >> xmlvm-users mailing list >> xml...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 16:04:57 +0200 > From: Gergely Kis <ger...@ma...> > Subject: Re: [xmlvm-users] Licence issues > To: xml...@li... > Message-ID: > <2f9...@ma...> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi, > > I have a few thoughts (not terribly organized): > - it would be nice to have a commercial entity who owns the code legally. > Right now the CLAs have to be addressed to you (Arno Puder) personally. This > could be a problem for potential contributor businesses. > - It would be nice to have a commercial license for those who don't want or > just can't contribute (e.g. no resources...etc.) There are many businesses > who work like this. One in particular is ExtJS. I think that 2-300 USD / > seat would be reasonable for a major release (including minor releases). > Of course, this is only fair, if the product is reasonably complete, which > it is not currently (at least for Android -> IPhone porting). It also > assumes the notion of releases (major / minor releases, QA ... etc.) > > - Offering linking exception (a type of "commercial license") is both good > and bad. > > It is good, because it allows contributors to use the project for commercial > purposes. > > It is bad, because they need to give up their rights to their own > contribution to do so. For example if someone creates killer feature X, > contributes it and gets a linking exception. Then you commercialize the > project and make much more revenue from killer feature X than the actual > value of the linking exception license is. I know that you all are > reasonable people, and would probably find a satisfying solution for all > parties in cases like this. > But having the rules set clear is a good thing. > > - It is not clear how long a "linking exception" is valid. Is it valid until > 1.0? 2.0? Who decides when a linking exception expires? Should it expire? > > - The core developers have to decide whether they want to commercialize the > project in the near future. > > - I think the bounty approach could help: > - Missing features could be entered into a ticketing system (please don't > start a ticket system bikeshed now :) ) > - People could offer bounties for features > - One type of bounty is the linking exception > - Other type of bounty is of course money > - This way the price of the "commercial license" would be translated from > code to money, which can be later the base for the real commercial license > price > - Those who pay for the bounties should also get the linking exception > (based on some formula) > - This system would allow users to hire the core team (or other > contributors) to work on features that are important to them and willing to > pay for. > - There are many things that need to be thought out regarding this bounty > system, this is just a quick brainstorming. > > Best Regards, > Gergely > > > 2009/10/7 Arno Puder <ar...@pu...> > >> >> I personally am absolutely fine to discuss this in public. For >> "contribution" we don't just assume fees but also code contributions. In >> some cases this is difficult: is a 1000 line patch always more worth >> than 100 lines? Certainly not. Does a one line patch to fix a bug >> already qualify to grant the linking exception? I'm inclined to say no. >> But I'd be more than happy to get feedback from you guys on what you >> consider to be a fair contribution in return for granting a linking >> exception. As I said before, we want XMLVM to succeed. So, suggestions >> please! >> >> Arno >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > ------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > xmlvm-users mailing list > xml...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users > > > End of xmlvm-users Digest, Vol 4, Issue 7 > ***************************************** > |
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From: Jeff N. <not...@gm...> - 2009-10-07 16:30:16
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On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 8:11 AM, Kevin Glass <ke...@co...> wrote: > Remove the system.setproperty in your main before compiling for iphone >> > Ah, i should have been able to figure that one out for myself... gotta overcome my fear of obj-c, eh? ;) Okay, so I've got passed that error. I actually did it two ways, first by removing the relevant line from the Java source before compiling, and then (partially to get into the obj-c code a bit) by adding a simple setProperty method to the xmlvm iPhone compatibility library -- bam, now the Java code doesn't need to be modified to run with setProperty calls present. Unfortunately, I have run into another problem that following through the obj-c source doesn't seem to be helping me with. In fact, the same problem appears to happens on all "iPhone-only" apps (iFireworks, iRemote, NeHe4) with the exception of iHelloWorld (which runs fine). None of the Android cross-compiled versions of the apps have this problem. I've included the crash reports below. Does anyone have any hints? iGLNeHe4: Thread 0 Crashed: 0 libobjc.A.dylib 0x9481d688 objc_msgSend + 24 1 iGLNehe4 0x0000cd15 -[org_xmlvm_iphone_demo_gl_nehelesson4_NeHeLesson4 applicationDidFinishLaunching___org_xmlvm_iphone_UIApplication:] + 574 (org_xmlvm_iphone_demo_gl_nehelesson4_NeHeLesson4.m:104) 2 iGLNehe4 0x00008511 -[org_xmlvm_iphone_UIApplication applicationDidFinishLaunching:] + 43 (org_xmlvm_iphone_UIApplication.m:42) 3 UIKit 0x0168061f -[UIApplication _performInitializationWithURL:sourceBundleID:] + 500 4 UIKit 0x01689a0a -[UIApplication _runWithURL:sourceBundleID:] + 594 5 UIKit 0x01686b88 -[UIApplication handleEvent:withNewEvent:] + 1532 6 UIKit 0x016826d3 -[UIApplication sendEvent:] + 71 7 UIKit 0x016890b5 _UIApplicationHandleEvent + 5048 8 GraphicsServices 0x000ebef1 PurpleEventCallback + 1533 9 CoreFoundation 0x0089db80 CFRunLoopRunSpecific + 3888 10 CoreFoundation 0x0089cc48 CFRunLoopRunInMode + 88 11 UIKit 0x01680e69 -[UIApplication _run] + 611 12 UIKit 0x0168a003 UIApplicationMain + 1157 13 iGLNehe4 0x000086bf +[org_xmlvm_iphone_UIApplication main___java_lang_String_ARRAYTYPE_java_lang_Class::] + 198 (org_xmlvm_iphone_UIApplication.m:82) 14 iGLNehe4 0x0000d0cc +[org_xmlvm_iphone_demo_gl_nehelesson4_NeHeLesson4 main___java_lang_String_ARRAYTYPE:] + 331 (org_xmlvm_iphone_demo_gl_nehelesson4_NeHeLesson4.m:161) 15 iGLNehe4 0x0000d11d main + 51 (org_xmlvm_iphone_demo_gl_nehelesson4_NeHeLesson4.m:175) 16 iGLNehe4 0x000025ba start + 54 iFireworks: Thread 0 Crashed: 0 libobjc.A.dylib 0x9481d688 objc_msgSend + 24 1 iFireworks 0x00008dae -[org_xmlvm_demo_ifireworks_Main applicationDidFinishLaunching___org_xmlvm_iphone_UIApplication:] + 574 (org_xmlvm_demo_ifireworks_Main.m:118) 2 iFireworks 0x0000def9 -[org_xmlvm_iphone_UIApplication applicationDidFinishLaunching:] + 43 (org_xmlvm_iphone_UIApplication.m:42) 3 UIKit 0x0168061f -[UIApplication _performInitializationWithURL:sourceBundleID:] + 500 4 UIKit 0x01689a0a -[UIApplication _runWithURL:sourceBundleID:] + 594 5 UIKit 0x01686b88 -[UIApplication handleEvent:withNewEvent:] + 1532 6 UIKit 0x016826d3 -[UIApplication sendEvent:] + 71 7 UIKit 0x016890b5 _UIApplicationHandleEvent + 5048 8 GraphicsServices 0x000ebef1 PurpleEventCallback + 1533 9 CoreFoundation 0x0089db80 CFRunLoopRunSpecific + 3888 10 CoreFoundation 0x0089cc48 CFRunLoopRunInMode + 88 11 UIKit 0x01680e69 -[UIApplication _run] + 611 12 UIKit 0x0168a003 UIApplicationMain + 1157 13 iFireworks 0x0000e0a7 +[org_xmlvm_iphone_UIApplication main___java_lang_String_ARRAYTYPE_java_lang_Class::] + 198 (org_xmlvm_iphone_UIApplication.m:82) 14 iFireworks 0x000094a9 +[org_xmlvm_demo_ifireworks_Main main___java_lang_String_ARRAYTYPE:] + 196 (org_xmlvm_demo_ifireworks_Main.m:227) 15 iFireworks 0x000094fa main + 51 (org_xmlvm_demo_ifireworks_Main.m:241) 16 iFireworks 0x00001df6 start + 54 iRemote: Thread 0 Crashed: 0 libobjc.A.dylib 0x9481d688 objc_msgSend + 24 1 iRemote 0x00005f5b -[org_xmlvm_demo_iremote_Main applicationDidFinishLaunching___org_xmlvm_iphone_UIApplication:] + 1360 (org_xmlvm_demo_iremote_Main.m:185) 2 iRemote 0x0000c8b3 -[org_xmlvm_iphone_UIApplication applicationDidFinishLaunching:] + 43 (org_xmlvm_iphone_UIApplication.m:42) 3 UIKit 0x0168061f -[UIApplication _performInitializationWithURL:sourceBundleID:] + 500 4 UIKit 0x01689a0a -[UIApplication _runWithURL:sourceBundleID:] + 594 5 UIKit 0x01686b88 -[UIApplication handleEvent:withNewEvent:] + 1532 6 UIKit 0x016826d3 -[UIApplication sendEvent:] + 71 7 UIKit 0x016890b5 _UIApplicationHandleEvent + 5048 8 GraphicsServices 0x000ebef1 PurpleEventCallback + 1533 9 CoreFoundation 0x0089db80 CFRunLoopRunSpecific + 3888 10 CoreFoundation 0x0089cc48 CFRunLoopRunInMode + 88 11 UIKit 0x01680e69 -[UIApplication _run] + 611 12 UIKit 0x0168a003 UIApplicationMain + 1157 13 iRemote 0x0000ca61 +[org_xmlvm_iphone_UIApplication main___java_lang_String_ARRAYTYPE_java_lang_Class::] + 198 (org_xmlvm_iphone_UIApplication.m:82) 14 iRemote 0x000076a4 +[org_xmlvm_demo_iremote_Main main___java_lang_String_ARRAYTYPE:] + 196 (org_xmlvm_demo_iremote_Main.m:515) 15 iRemote 0x00007835 main + 51 (org_xmlvm_demo_iremote_Main.m:557) 16 iRemote 0x0000238e start + 54 On Oct 7, 2009 6:12 AM, "Jeff Norman" <not...@gm...> wrote: >> >> hello all, >> >> I've just come across the xmlvm project, and I can say that I'm very >> excited about the functionality it provides. I'm specifically interested in >> cross-compiling graphics/OpenGL related functionality from Android to >> iPhone. >> >> I've poked around a bit, and gotten all the samples apps running from my >> Eclipse environment, including the NeHe4 demo on the xmlvm iPhone emulator. >> I am, however, having trouble getting the same app to run under the Apple >> iPhone emulator (by simple running "make" from the command line). Everything >> compiles okay and the Apple iPhone simulator starts up with the app, but >> whenever I run the app it immediately crashes. Xokoban runs fine in the >> Apple iPhone emulator under identical conditions. Does anybody have any >> hints for getting the GL demo to work under the Apple iPhone emu? >> >> The core dump from the iPhone emulator is as follows (I've only included >> what appeared relevant, let me know if I missed something important): >> >> Application Specific Information: >> *** Terminating app due to uncaught exception >> 'NSInvalidArgumentException', reason: '*** +[java_lang_System >> setProperty___java_lang_String_java_lang_String::]: unrecognized selector >> sent to class 0x1aac0' >> >> Thread 0 Crashed: >> 0 CoreFoundation 0x00905004 >> ___TERMINATING_DUE_TO_UNCAUGHT_EXCEPTION___ + 4 >> 1 libobjc.A.dylib 0x94811e3b objc_exception_throw + 40 >> 2 CoreFoundation 0x0092f8fb +[NSObject >> doesNotRecognizeSelector:] + 187 >> 3 CoreFoundation 0x008c6676 ___forwarding___ + 902 >> 4 CoreFoundation 0x008a26c2 _CF_forwarding_prep_0 + >> 50 >> 5 iGLNehe4 0x0000d02f >> +[org_xmlvm_iphone_demo_gl_nehelesson4_NeHeLesson4 >> main___java_lang_String_ARRAYTYPE:] + 171 >> (org_xmlvm_iphone_demo_gl_nehelesson4_NeHeLesson4.m:152) >> 6 iGLNehe4 0x0000d11c main + 51 >> (org_xmlvm_iphone_demo_gl_nehelesson4_NeHeLesson4.m:175) >> 7 iGLNehe4 0x000025ca start + 54 >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jeff Norman >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA >> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your >> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay >> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference >> _______________________________________________ >> xmlvm-users mailing list >> xml...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > _______________________________________________ > xmlvm-users mailing list > xml...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users > > |
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From: Gergely K. <ger...@ma...> - 2009-10-07 15:01:47
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Hi, I have a few thoughts (not terribly organized): - it would be nice to have a commercial entity who owns the code legally. Right now the CLAs have to be addressed to you (Arno Puder) personally. This could be a problem for potential contributor businesses. - It would be nice to have a commercial license for those who don't want or just can't contribute (e.g. no resources...etc.) There are many businesses who work like this. One in particular is ExtJS. I think that 2-300 USD / seat would be reasonable for a major release (including minor releases). Of course, this is only fair, if the product is reasonably complete, which it is not currently (at least for Android -> IPhone porting). It also assumes the notion of releases (major / minor releases, QA ... etc.) - Offering linking exception (a type of "commercial license") is both good and bad. It is good, because it allows contributors to use the project for commercial purposes. It is bad, because they need to give up their rights to their own contribution to do so. For example if someone creates killer feature X, contributes it and gets a linking exception. Then you commercialize the project and make much more revenue from killer feature X than the actual value of the linking exception license is. I know that you all are reasonable people, and would probably find a satisfying solution for all parties in cases like this. But having the rules set clear is a good thing. - It is not clear how long a "linking exception" is valid. Is it valid until 1.0? 2.0? Who decides when a linking exception expires? Should it expire? - The core developers have to decide whether they want to commercialize the project in the near future. - I think the bounty approach could help: - Missing features could be entered into a ticketing system (please don't start a ticket system bikeshed now :) ) - People could offer bounties for features - One type of bounty is the linking exception - Other type of bounty is of course money - This way the price of the "commercial license" would be translated from code to money, which can be later the base for the real commercial license price - Those who pay for the bounties should also get the linking exception (based on some formula) - This system would allow users to hire the core team (or other contributors) to work on features that are important to them and willing to pay for. - There are many things that need to be thought out regarding this bounty system, this is just a quick brainstorming. Best Regards, Gergely 2009/10/7 Arno Puder <ar...@pu...> > > I personally am absolutely fine to discuss this in public. For > "contribution" we don't just assume fees but also code contributions. In > some cases this is difficult: is a 1000 line patch always more worth > than 100 lines? Certainly not. Does a one line patch to fix a bug > already qualify to grant the linking exception? I'm inclined to say no. > But I'd be more than happy to get feedback from you guys on what you > consider to be a fair contribution in return for granting a linking > exception. As I said before, we want XMLVM to succeed. So, suggestions > please! > > Arno > > |
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From: Sascha H. <sa...@xm...> - 2009-10-07 14:48:25
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This is actually a good point Gergely, thanks for mentioning it. So far we thought, if we write (C) XMLVM and then mention in a COPYING or LICENSE file who the people are that "own" XMLVM that should be enough. But I might be wrong and would like to figure this out. Do you think the only way to do this properly is to create a legal entity (like a company)? Maybe you have some pointers for us, that would be great. Thanks // Sascha On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Gergely Kis <ger...@ma...>wrote: > > > 2009/10/7 Gergely Kis <ger...@ma...> > >> Hi, >> >> I have a few thoughts (not terribly organized): >> - it would be nice to have a commercial entity who owns the code legally. >> Right now the CLAs have to be addressed to you (Arno Puder) personally. This >> could be a problem for potential contributor businesses. >> > Ok, I was wrong here. It just needs to be sent to your address, but > addressed to XMLVM, which is not a legal entity as far as I know. So I think > my point is still valid. > > Best Regards, > Gergely > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > _______________________________________________ > xmlvm-users mailing list > xml...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users > > |
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From: Gergely K. <ger...@ma...> - 2009-10-07 14:40:43
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2009/10/7 Gergely Kis <ger...@ma...> > Hi, > > I have a few thoughts (not terribly organized): > - it would be nice to have a commercial entity who owns the code legally. > Right now the CLAs have to be addressed to you (Arno Puder) personally. This > could be a problem for potential contributor businesses. > Ok, I was wrong here. It just needs to be sent to your address, but addressed to XMLVM, which is not a legal entity as far as I know. So I think my point is still valid. Best Regards, Gergely |
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From: Panayotis K. <pan...@pa...> - 2009-10-07 13:29:16
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On 07 Οκτ 2009, at 3:51 ΜΜ, Arno Puder wrote: > > I personally am absolutely fine to discuss this in public. For > "contribution" we don't just assume fees but also code > contributions. In > some cases this is difficult: is a 1000 line patch always more worth > than 100 lines? Certainly not. Does a one line patch to fix a bug > already qualify to grant the linking exception? I'm inclined to say > no. > But I'd be more than happy to get feedback from you guys on what you > consider to be a fair contribution in return for granting a linking > exception. As I said before, we want XMLVM to succeed. So, suggestions > please! > > Arno > Talking about myself, I believe that I am fluent in both Java and Obj- C languages. Still, not being stuck to a macintosh environment (although everywhere in my house and at work I have macs) AND being able to code in my favorite language is what caught my attention to this project. I had a look at the source code too and saw that it was quite clever what you've done. Well done! My idea was first to make sure that this project worths it and I probably use it in my future projects and then of course give back to whatever I did to improve this library. For example I was thinking about saving/loading (since I saw that this API is not supported yet). Or create some automatic scripts to make development of iphone/android applications with e.g. Netbeans a straight forward thing. Or have a look what it should be done so signing of applications will be as easy as with the xcode tool. That is what it crossed my mind, but first (as I said) I had to make sure that it worths it and I can really use it with my software. Don't get me wrong, after long discussions for example in other lists of other projects (which I prefer not to mention here, in public), I was sometimes disappointed by the people who own a project. Yes, it's their project. Yes, they've spent some time with it. Yes, they deserve some things back. But this doesn't give them the right to be arrogant and not communicative. On the contrary, I can now clearly see that the core developers of this project are really communicative, helpful and willing to find solutions. So, in other words, I am convinced now. |
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From: Arno P. <ar...@pu...> - 2009-10-07 12:52:01
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I personally am absolutely fine to discuss this in public. For "contribution" we don't just assume fees but also code contributions. In some cases this is difficult: is a 1000 line patch always more worth than 100 lines? Certainly not. Does a one line patch to fix a bug already qualify to grant the linking exception? I'm inclined to say no. But I'd be more than happy to get feedback from you guys on what you consider to be a fair contribution in return for granting a linking exception. As I said before, we want XMLVM to succeed. So, suggestions please! Arno Panayotis Katsaloulis wrote: > On 07 Οκτ 2009, at 2:10 ΜΜ, Arno Puder wrote: > >> Guys, > > ... > >> We understand that >> there is no clear definition of "contribution" at this point. But rest >> assured that we are interested in XMLVM to succeed. I am sure that if >> you want to use XMLVM for a commercial product, we will find some >> common >> ground. We have already issued several of these linking exceptions to >> contributors. >> > > Right, that's the main reason for the discussion. > What exactly someone should give back, if he can't / is not allowed > to give back the source code of his application. > > I understand that usually is per-user basis, since other things will > be required from a large company who wants to massively develop > applications for both android & iphone, and other for an individual > who simply wants to create a couple of applications. > > But, please, give us some hints. > > if someone of the core developers doesn't want to discuss this in > public, I am open to private conversations. > > Thank you > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > _______________________________________________ > xmlvm-users mailing list > xml...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users |
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From: Panayotis K. <pan...@pa...> - 2009-10-07 12:40:53
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On 07 Οκτ 2009, at 2:10 ΜΜ, Arno Puder wrote: > > Guys, ... > We understand that > there is no clear definition of "contribution" at this point. But rest > assured that we are interested in XMLVM to succeed. I am sure that if > you want to use XMLVM for a commercial product, we will find some > common > ground. We have already issued several of these linking exceptions to > contributors. > Right, that's the main reason for the discussion. What exactly someone should give back, if he can't / is not allowed to give back the source code of his application. I understand that usually is per-user basis, since other things will be required from a large company who wants to massively develop applications for both android & iphone, and other for an individual who simply wants to create a couple of applications. But, please, give us some hints. if someone of the core developers doesn't want to discuss this in public, I am open to private conversations. Thank you |
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From: Kevin G. <ke...@co...> - 2009-10-07 12:11:26
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Reply below was meant to be to the list, apologies. Kev 2009/10/7 Kevin Glass <ke...@co...> > Remove the system.setproperty in your main before compiling for iphone > > On Oct 7, 2009 6:12 AM, "Jeff Norman" <not...@gm...> wrote: > > hello all, > > I've just come across the xmlvm project, and I can say that I'm very > excited about the functionality it provides. I'm specifically interested in > cross-compiling graphics/OpenGL related functionality from Android to > iPhone. > > I've poked around a bit, and gotten all the samples apps running from my > Eclipse environment, including the NeHe4 demo on the xmlvm iPhone emulator. > I am, however, having trouble getting the same app to run under the Apple > iPhone emulator (by simple running "make" from the command line). Everything > compiles okay and the Apple iPhone simulator starts up with the app, but > whenever I run the app it immediately crashes. Xokoban runs fine in the > Apple iPhone emulator under identical conditions. Does anybody have any > hints for getting the GL demo to work under the Apple iPhone emu? > > The core dump from the iPhone emulator is as follows (I've only included > what appeared relevant, let me know if I missed something important): > > Application Specific Information: > *** Terminating app due to uncaught exception 'NSInvalidArgumentException', > reason: '*** +[java_lang_System > setProperty___java_lang_String_java_lang_String::]: unrecognized selector > sent to class 0x1aac0' > > Thread 0 Crashed: > 0 CoreFoundation 0x00905004 > ___TERMINATING_DUE_TO_UNCAUGHT_EXCEPTION___ + 4 > 1 libobjc.A.dylib 0x94811e3b objc_exception_throw + 40 > 2 CoreFoundation 0x0092f8fb +[NSObject > doesNotRecognizeSelector:] + 187 > 3 CoreFoundation 0x008c6676 ___forwarding___ + 902 > 4 CoreFoundation 0x008a26c2 _CF_forwarding_prep_0 + 50 > 5 iGLNehe4 0x0000d02f > +[org_xmlvm_iphone_demo_gl_nehelesson4_NeHeLesson4 > main___java_lang_String_ARRAYTYPE:] + 171 > (org_xmlvm_iphone_demo_gl_nehelesson4_NeHeLesson4.m:152) > 6 iGLNehe4 0x0000d11c main + 51 > (org_xmlvm_iphone_demo_gl_nehelesson4_NeHeLesson4.m:175) > 7 iGLNehe4 0x000025ca start + 54 > > Thanks, > > Jeff Norman > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > _______________________________________________ > xmlvm-users mailing list > xml...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users > > |
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From: Arno P. <ar...@pu...> - 2009-10-07 11:10:57
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Guys, I have been offline for a few days and I'm catching up on my email. I want to add my opinion to this discussion. Actually, I just wanted to clarify a few things. Most of it has been said before, but I still feel like writing this message. XMLVM is an Open Source project that is licensed under the GPL. The GPL license is used by 70% of all projects that are hosted at SourceForge. There are prominent libraries (e.g., readline) that also use GPL, so XMLVM is no exception. As a side note: Gnome was created because Qt was initially only available under a commercial license; not because Qt used GPL. Since XMLVM is Open Source, it will ALWAYS be Open Source. Even if the core team gets run over by a truck tomorrow, the latest version of XMLVM will still be available. So, I don't understand when one of you was musing if it is worthwhile to invest in XMLVM. The way I look at it is that the discussion is not about GPL, but if you can get someone else's work for free to use it for your commercial ventures. If you only had altruistic motives and only were interested in contributing to an Open Source project, we would not have this discussion. You can already do this right now! As someone else pointed out, GPL does not prohibit commercial products; except that you have to give away your source code as well. The reason there is this discussion because some users of XMLVM want to make money with the applications they make AND keep their own source code proprietary. As Wolfgang pointed out earlier, that is absolutely OK! But to those people I would respond: are we (the XMLVM core team) not also entitled to have commercial interests? That is why we came up with the linking exception rule: if you make a "contribution" to XMLVM, you will get a linking exception. Of course you are free to start your own Open Source project with a more permissive license (forking XMLVM would not work because the fork will also have to be under GPL as well), but as Kevin pointed out, why not contribute to XMLVM and we'll give you a linking exception that will allow you to use XMLVM in your commercial product? We understand that there is no clear definition of "contribution" at this point. But rest assured that we are interested in XMLVM to succeed. I am sure that if you want to use XMLVM for a commercial product, we will find some common ground. We have already issued several of these linking exceptions to contributors. I would recommend you guys read this article that was previously linked from /.: http://zedshaw.com/blog/2009-07-13.html I don't approve his language, but I certainly share his sentiments. Arno |
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From: Arno P. <ar...@pu...> - 2009-10-07 10:22:43
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actually, I have begun on the read-file API. Here is what you can do so far:
String filePath =
NSBundle.getMainBundle().pathForResource("AndroidManifest", "xml");
NSData manifestFile = NSData.dataWithContentsOfFile(filePath);
Of course this is only feasible for smaller files. There is also no
write-API.
Arno
Wolfgang Korn wrote:
> Blake,
>
> currently we do not support file access. The only API we currently offer
> is reading and writing of key/value pairs using the NSUserDefaults
> class. Especially the NSFileHandle/Manager classes are not supported by
> now. The same is true for the NSPersistentStore class.
>
> -- Wolfgang
>
>
> blake miller wrote:
>> I'm trying to find the best way (if there is any currently) to store
>> data on the iPhone. I'm having trouble figuring out the Java API for
>> Cocoa, particularly with how to do something like save and read a file
>> to the device. Can someone provide a code sample for this, or direct
>> me to the correct Java classes?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Blake
>> bla...@gm...
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmlvm-users mailing list
>> xml...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> _______________________________________________
> xmlvm-users mailing list
> xml...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users
|
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From: Jeff N. <not...@gm...> - 2009-10-07 05:11:27
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hello all, I've just come across the xmlvm project, and I can say that I'm very excited about the functionality it provides. I'm specifically interested in cross-compiling graphics/OpenGL related functionality from Android to iPhone. I've poked around a bit, and gotten all the samples apps running from my Eclipse environment, including the NeHe4 demo on the xmlvm iPhone emulator. I am, however, having trouble getting the same app to run under the Apple iPhone emulator (by simple running "make" from the command line). Everything compiles okay and the Apple iPhone simulator starts up with the app, but whenever I run the app it immediately crashes. Xokoban runs fine in the Apple iPhone emulator under identical conditions. Does anybody have any hints for getting the GL demo to work under the Apple iPhone emu? The core dump from the iPhone emulator is as follows (I've only included what appeared relevant, let me know if I missed something important): Application Specific Information: *** Terminating app due to uncaught exception 'NSInvalidArgumentException', reason: '*** +[java_lang_System setProperty___java_lang_String_java_lang_String::]: unrecognized selector sent to class 0x1aac0' Thread 0 Crashed: 0 CoreFoundation 0x00905004 ___TERMINATING_DUE_TO_UNCAUGHT_EXCEPTION___ + 4 1 libobjc.A.dylib 0x94811e3b objc_exception_throw + 40 2 CoreFoundation 0x0092f8fb +[NSObject doesNotRecognizeSelector:] + 187 3 CoreFoundation 0x008c6676 ___forwarding___ + 902 4 CoreFoundation 0x008a26c2 _CF_forwarding_prep_0 + 50 5 iGLNehe4 0x0000d02f +[org_xmlvm_iphone_demo_gl_nehelesson4_NeHeLesson4 main___java_lang_String_ARRAYTYPE:] + 171 (org_xmlvm_iphone_demo_gl_nehelesson4_NeHeLesson4.m:152) 6 iGLNehe4 0x0000d11c main + 51 (org_xmlvm_iphone_demo_gl_nehelesson4_NeHeLesson4.m:175) 7 iGLNehe4 0x000025ca start + 54 Thanks, Jeff Norman |
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From: Inderjeet S. <ind...@gm...> - 2009-10-05 15:35:23
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On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 12:42 AM, Sascha Haeberling <sa...@xm...> wrote: > I absolutely I agree with Kevin on this. If you make a contribution, you > will get a linking exception and you can use XMLVM for your commercial > projects. I don't see how trying to form a different project is of any > benefit to you or to the OpenSource community. > Let me emphasize that we are still quite young and we are still in the > process to form the OpenSource nature of the project. We are open to other > licensing models but so far this seems to be the one that works for most. > However, if we see that a lot of the people in our community have problems > with it, we can think about it. > Is it possible to post a time-frame in which you will make this decision? I had asked this question in early July, and I am not sure how much longer I will have to wait to make my decisions about whether to wait for XMLVM or use something else. Thanks Inder |
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From: Inderjeet S. <ind...@gm...> - 2009-10-05 15:22:45
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My intention is not to fragment, and I respect the desire of XMLVM creators to choose whatever licensing model they want. I am only talking about the ported Java library classes that you have to include in any XMLVM-based project, not the code translator or other parts of XMLVM. For another open-source (Apache license) project (which I now think is quite complimentary to XMLVM) that I started, I need to write a port for Java library classes to Objective C. While working on it, I realized that if I could design the library to be compatible with XMLVM. I havent done much work on it yet (other priorities), but the email by Panayotis made me wonder if that would be useful to others as well. Inder On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Kevin Glass <ke...@co...> wrote: > Fragmenting a community that is so fledging would be the best way to kill > any open source project. There is a route to a more permissive license, i.e. > the GPL with linking exception, if you're prepared to make a contribution to > project. > > If you were going to do the work to produce a XMLVM compatible > compatibility library as a separate library (you'd need Java classes and the > Cocoa framework to make it useable for anything) then why not spend this > effort on contributing into the XMLVM compatibility library there by getting > a linking exception license? > > Kev > > 2009/10/4 Inderjeet Singh <ind...@gm...> > > >> Any takers for starting a XMLVM compatible library (for Java classes) >> under an Apache style license hosted at code.google.com? I will be happy >> to contribute some code seeding it. >> Thanks >> Inder >> >> On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Wolfgang Korn <wol...@xm...> wrote: >> >>> We carefully decided to put our project under GPL. And there have >>> already been some discussions on the mailing list concerning this topic. >>> >>> Usually people are having problems with the GPL if they want to build >>> software which is not open source - mostly because they want to do >>> commercial apps and want to make money out of it. There is nothing wrong >>> with writing commercial apps based on open source tools. But our point >>> of view is, that in such a case something has to be given back to the >>> open source community. In our case we want to be given something back >>> which helps us to further improve our project. This can be monetary >>> funding or hardware sponsoring as well as providing a significant >>> contribution to the project. In turn we provide something called a >>> linking exception, which allows you to use XMLVM without putting your >>> project under GPL as well. >>> >>> -- Wolfgang >>> >>> >>> Panayotis Katsaloulis wrote: >>> > Hello ! >>> > >>> > I am thinking, why this tool-chain/library is under the GPL License, >>> > and not something more appropriate for a library, such as LGPL or BSD? >>> > >>> > I have this question since usually such tools have a more relaxed >>> > license, on who is linking on what. >>> > >>> > Thanks >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> > Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA >>> > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart >>> your >>> > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and >>> stay >>> > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register >>> now! >>> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > xmlvm-users mailing list >>> > xml...@li... >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA >>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your >>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay >>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register >>> now! >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf >>> _______________________________________________ >>> xmlvm-users mailing list >>> xml...@li... >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA >> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your >> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay >> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register >> now! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf >> _______________________________________________ >> xmlvm-users mailing list >> xml...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users >> >> > |
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From: Inderjeet S. <ind...@gm...> - 2009-10-05 15:16:26
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On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 1:29 AM, Jacob Nordfalk <jac...@gm...>wrote: > > For us (an image improvement company - http://carambaimaging.com/ - > considering an iPhone port of our closed source application) the situation > is that we - before engaging - must somehow estimate costs and time spended. > > It came as a chok for me this morning when I realized 2) and that there > might be a problem (we must keep the source closed - even if I personally > disagree). So we will have to rely on 3) - and so, the question is how big > "a contribution" is. > > It would be great if I could give my boss an estimate of what "a > contribution" maximally is, so he could count the cost (in these times, he > is always counting :-| > My experience with xmlvm was similar (and I think the problem is widespread). I started experimenting with it thinking that it is under GPL, and like most other GPL projects (think GNU compilers) will not force me to open-source my code just by using it. After investing some time and effort on xmlvm, I realized that it was not the case. I hope XMLVM could somehow make this point clearer at its project page (while it is figuring out its licensing issues) so that people dont get surprised. Inder |
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From: Sascha H. <sa...@xm...> - 2009-10-05 11:29:54
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We haven't changed anything with the app until then. My guess is that there might be something wrong with your Java runtime at work. Do you have any error message you can share? Thanks // Sascha On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Panayotis Katsaloulis < pan...@pa...> wrote: > In the morning (from home) I was able to play and see the xokoban > application found in > http://www.xmlvm.org/android/demo > > Now (from work) I can't > Is there any problem with this application? > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf > _______________________________________________ > xmlvm-users mailing list > xml...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users > |
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From: Panayotis K. <pan...@pa...> - 2009-10-05 10:51:27
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In the morning (from home) I was able to play and see the xokoban application found in http://www.xmlvm.org/android/demo Now (from work) I can't Is there any problem with this application? |
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From: Panayotis K. <pan...@pa...> - 2009-10-05 08:33:04
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On 05 Οκτ 2009, at 10:42 π.μ., Sascha Haeberling wrote: > ... > Let me emphasize that we are still quite young and we are still in > the process to form the OpenSource nature of the project. We are > open to other licensing models but so far this seems to be the one > that works for most. However, if we see that a lot of the people in > our community have problems with it, we can think about it. I actually agree with that, that's why I started this thread and ask for another licensing model, instead of open a new project at soureforge and go from then. Forking is something that is killing open source sometimes. ... > • If you would like to not disclose the source code of your app we > understand that. In this case you can make a contribution to the > project. Donation is just one option, you can also submit some code > or help XMLVM in other ways (e.g. spread the word). In this case we > will grant you a linking exception. With this you don't have to > disclose your source code when you generate your app using XMLVM. Well I don't know if it's me, but now this statement looks more promising than this one > ... This can be monetary > funding or hardware sponsoring as well as providing a significant > contribution to the project. In turn we provide something called a > linking exception, which allows you to use XMLVM without putting your > project under GPL as well. which seems to follow the model "(money || hardware) && significant contribution" :) Part of the problem I think it is you don't somewhere clearly state what exactly you want back. a) How much money? b) Code contribution? Is a single patch enough? In any case, giving patches back is not only "the right thing", but it's also required! c) Spread the word, like stating in the about box of the application which library we are using? d) What other forms of contribution do you accept? GPL with the linking exception is just fine of course, although I believe this should be the default (as for example in the Classpath project). Please also note that if someone wants to use your code in a commercial project without asking and publish in the AppStore (that's all this discussion about, right?), there is NO legal way to find it out. You won't have access to the binary which is bounded with Apple's license, not to mention how difficult it would be to reverse engineer code compiled with -O3 (or better :P ) So everybody could use your code and give back nothing without knowing it. It sounds like you punish the people who come here and want to follow your model "by the book". For me though the problem is not that. The problem is I hesitate to invest[1] on a project in which tomorrow someone might slum the door on my face. There is a good reason only applications with GPL license have survived and blossom and not libraries. [1] invest as in learning how to use it, expand it, give of course code back, advertise it or maybe pay for it, and in general spend time with it |
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From: Jacob N. <jac...@gm...> - 2009-10-05 08:29:23
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2009/10/5 Sascha Haeberling <sa...@xm...> > I absolutely I agree with Kevin on this. If you make a contribution, you > will get a linking exception and you can use XMLVM for your commercial > projects. I don't see how trying to form a different project is of any > benefit to you or to the OpenSource community. > Let me emphasize that we are still quite young and we are still in the > process to form the OpenSource nature of the project. We are open to other > licensing models but so far this seems to be the one that works for most. > However, if we see that a lot of the people in our community have problems > with it, we can think about it. > > Maybe this is the time to ask others on the mailing list, that so far have > been quiet, to see what their opinion is. Any input is welcome. > First, for those who didnt dig it out yet, a pointer to the earlier discussions: https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=CD37C2F806D14E59922E19D83B7AB49F%40TusharPC&forum_name=xmlvm-users Quick summary, as far as I understand it (please correct me if Im wrong!), in the perspective of a Java developer wanting to port code for project XYZ to iPhone: 1) XMLVM code transform is GPL. 2) XMLVM's supporting libriaries, such as the Java bridge to iPhone classes (java_lang_String.m, java_lang_System.m...) is GPL. 3) By making "a contribution" a company/individual can get XMLVM's supporting libriaries in a LGPL-like version ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPL_linking_exception) By itself 1) does not in any way make any restrictions on XYZ (project can be close source), but any objective-C code generated by XMLVM will be using XMLVM's supporting libriaries. Anything linked with XMLVM's supporting libriaries MUST therefore be made GPL. Thus 2) requires all ported code to be GPL. For us (an image improvement company - http://carambaimaging.com/ - considering an iPhone port of our closed source application) the situation is that we - before engaging - must somehow estimate costs and time spended. It came as a chok for me this morning when I realized 2) and that there might be a problem (we must keep the source closed - even if I personally disagree). So we will have to rely on 3) - and so, the question is how big "a contribution" is. It would be great if I could give my boss an estimate of what "a contribution" maximally is, so he could count the cost (in these times, he is always counting :-| So here are my proposals: A) Make it more visible that close source projects need to get http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPL_linking_exception B) Come with a max of what is requred for you to grant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPL_linking_exception (BTW: xmlvm.org says "To subscribe, visit our contact page to find a link" but on http://www.xmlvm.org/contact/ there is no link. I know I'm blind but please also link to the mailing list from there :-) Yours, Jacob -- Jacob Nordfalk |
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From: Sascha H. <sa...@xm...> - 2009-10-05 07:48:41
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Hi Blake, thank you for your interest in XMLVM. We try to provide a solution that work for most use cases. Let me describe your options: - You can use XMLVM to generate your application, but we ask you to make the source code available to the public - If you would like to not disclose the source code of your app we understand that. In this case you can make a contribution to the project. Donation is just one option, you can also submit some code or help XMLVM in other ways (e.g. spread the word). In this case we will grant you a linking exception. With this you don't have to disclose your source code when you generate your app using XMLVM. Let us know if you have any further questions. // Sascha On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:05 AM, blake miller <bla...@gm...>wrote: > I don't know much about the licenses out there. Does XMLVM being > under GPL mean I cannot use it to create an application that I charge > for? > > The point of my current development project would be to eventually put > it on the App Store (iPhone). I would be happy to make a donation to > the project however, instead, if this is a possibility? What are my > options in this regard? > > Thanks > Blake Miller > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf > _______________________________________________ > xmlvm-users mailing list > xml...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users > |
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From: Sascha H. <sa...@xm...> - 2009-10-05 07:43:06
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I absolutely I agree with Kevin on this. If you make a contribution, you will get a linking exception and you can use XMLVM for your commercial projects. I don't see how trying to form a different project is of any benefit to you or to the OpenSource community. Let me emphasize that we are still quite young and we are still in the process to form the OpenSource nature of the project. We are open to other licensing models but so far this seems to be the one that works for most. However, if we see that a lot of the people in our community have problems with it, we can think about it. Maybe this is the time to ask others on the mailing list, that so far have been quiet, to see what their opinion is. Any input is welcome. Thanks // Sascha On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Kevin Glass <ke...@co...> wrote: > Fragmenting a community that is so fledging would be the best way to kill > any open source project. There is a route to a more permissive license, i.e. > the GPL with linking exception, if you're prepared to make a contribution to > project. > > If you were going to do the work to produce a XMLVM compatible > compatibility library as a separate library (you'd need Java classes and the > Cocoa framework to make it useable for anything) then why not spend this > effort on contributing into the XMLVM compatibility library there by getting > a linking exception license? > > Kev > > 2009/10/4 Inderjeet Singh <ind...@gm...> > > >> Any takers for starting a XMLVM compatible library (for Java classes) >> under an Apache style license hosted at code.google.com? I will be happy >> to contribute some code seeding it. >> Thanks >> Inder >> >> On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Wolfgang Korn <wol...@xm...> wrote: >> >>> We carefully decided to put our project under GPL. And there have >>> already been some discussions on the mailing list concerning this topic. >>> >>> Usually people are having problems with the GPL if they want to build >>> software which is not open source - mostly because they want to do >>> commercial apps and want to make money out of it. There is nothing wrong >>> with writing commercial apps based on open source tools. But our point >>> of view is, that in such a case something has to be given back to the >>> open source community. In our case we want to be given something back >>> which helps us to further improve our project. This can be monetary >>> funding or hardware sponsoring as well as providing a significant >>> contribution to the project. In turn we provide something called a >>> linking exception, which allows you to use XMLVM without putting your >>> project under GPL as well. >>> >>> -- Wolfgang >>> >>> >>> Panayotis Katsaloulis wrote: >>> > Hello ! >>> > >>> > I am thinking, why this tool-chain/library is under the GPL License, >>> > and not something more appropriate for a library, such as LGPL or BSD? >>> > >>> > I have this question since usually such tools have a more relaxed >>> > license, on who is linking on what. >>> > >>> > Thanks >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> > Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA >>> > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart >>> your >>> > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and >>> stay >>> > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register >>> now! >>> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > xmlvm-users mailing list >>> > xml...@li... >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA >>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your >>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay >>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register >>> now! >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf >>> _______________________________________________ >>> xmlvm-users mailing list >>> xml...@li... >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA >> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your >> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay >> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register >> now! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf >> _______________________________________________ >> xmlvm-users mailing list >> xml...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf > _______________________________________________ > xmlvm-users mailing list > xml...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users > > |
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From: Kevin G. <ke...@co...> - 2009-10-05 07:12:16
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Fragmenting a community that is so fledging would be the best way to kill any open source project. There is a route to a more permissive license, i.e. the GPL with linking exception, if you're prepared to make a contribution to project. If you were going to do the work to produce a XMLVM compatible compatibility library as a separate library (you'd need Java classes and the Cocoa framework to make it useable for anything) then why not spend this effort on contributing into the XMLVM compatibility library there by getting a linking exception license? Kev 2009/10/4 Inderjeet Singh <ind...@gm...> > > Any takers for starting a XMLVM compatible library (for Java classes) under > an Apache style license hosted at code.google.com? I will be happy to > contribute some code seeding it. > Thanks > Inder > > On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Wolfgang Korn <wol...@xm...> wrote: > >> We carefully decided to put our project under GPL. And there have >> already been some discussions on the mailing list concerning this topic. >> >> Usually people are having problems with the GPL if they want to build >> software which is not open source - mostly because they want to do >> commercial apps and want to make money out of it. There is nothing wrong >> with writing commercial apps based on open source tools. But our point >> of view is, that in such a case something has to be given back to the >> open source community. In our case we want to be given something back >> which helps us to further improve our project. This can be monetary >> funding or hardware sponsoring as well as providing a significant >> contribution to the project. In turn we provide something called a >> linking exception, which allows you to use XMLVM without putting your >> project under GPL as well. >> >> -- Wolfgang >> >> >> Panayotis Katsaloulis wrote: >> > Hello ! >> > >> > I am thinking, why this tool-chain/library is under the GPL License, >> > and not something more appropriate for a library, such as LGPL or BSD? >> > >> > I have this question since usually such tools have a more relaxed >> > license, on who is linking on what. >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA >> > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your >> > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and >> stay >> > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register >> now! >> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf >> > _______________________________________________ >> > xmlvm-users mailing list >> > xml...@li... >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users >> > >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA >> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your >> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay >> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register >> now! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf >> _______________________________________________ >> xmlvm-users mailing list >> xml...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf > _______________________________________________ > xmlvm-users mailing list > xml...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users > > |
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