tuxpaint-devel

[Tuxpaint-devel] cut-and-paste, copy-and-paste

[Albert C. <aca...@gm...>]

I think the most kid-friendly way is to do something
like the gimp's quickmask mode.

Usage: Choose the select tool. Start painting. As you
paint, you get an outline just like the stamp ones.
There might be a stamp slot that fills in when you do
this, and maybe an opportunity to save it as a regular
stamp. Maybe there is more than one slot, with the
select tool overwriting the oldest one or causing the
list to scroll. Choose the fresh new stamp to use it.
Probably there should be a shrink-to-fit operation that
gets rid of excess background.

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] cut-and-paste, copy-and-paste

[Martin F. <mf...@gm...>]

Interesting idea.  One could provide a variety of paint brush tools to  
paint/select over regions using different brush patterns.  Reilly, any  
thoughts on this?

Martin

On 11-May-08, at 4:30 PM, Albert Cahalan wrote:

> I think the most kid-friendly way is to do something
> like the gimp's quickmask mode.
>
> Usage: Choose the select tool. Start painting. As you
> paint, you get an outline just like the stamp ones.
> There might be a stamp slot that fills in when you do
> this, and maybe an opportunity to save it as a regular
> stamp. Maybe there is more than one slot, with the
> select tool overwriting the oldest one or causing the
> list to scroll. Choose the fresh new stamp to use it.
> Probably there should be a shrink-to-fit operation that
> gets rid of excess background.
>
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Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] cut-and-paste, copy-and-paste

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 05:33:25PM -0600, Martin Fuhrer wrote:
> Interesting idea.  One could provide a variety of paint brush tools to  
> paint/select over regions using different brush patterns.  Reilly, any  
> thoughts on this?

I think this would be great, but as long as we also have some of the
slightly more traditional tools (lasso, rect/oval) too.

-bill!

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] cut-and-paste, copy-and-paste

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 06:30:11PM -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:
> Usage: Choose the select tool. Start painting. As you
> paint, you get an outline just like the stamp ones.
> There might be a stamp slot that fills in when you do
> this, and maybe an opportunity to save it as a regular
> stamp. Maybe there is more than one slot, with the
> select tool overwriting the oldest one or causing the
> list to scroll. Choose the fresh new stamp to use it.
> Probably there should be a shrink-to-fit operation that
> gets rid of excess background.

A lot of this is not too far from what I had envisioned:

  http://www.sonic.net/~nbs/tp-selection-mockup.png

-- 
-bill!
bi...@ne...
http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] cut-and-paste, copy-and-paste

[Reilly W. <rei...@gm...>]

Albert, this is a nice idea, it's basically what I had in mind for
selection.  I would also like some facility for turning one of these
selections into a regular stamp.

Bill, I'm still not that keen on having Add/Remove Selection tools.  I
think multiple selection adds a lot of UI complexity without enough to
gain from it.  I love the elegance of being able to make a selection
with a hole in it, but I'm concerned it comes at the expense of having
some kids not use selections at all because they're bewildered by all
the buttons.  That said, it's something I'm not against trying out to
see what actual kids think of it.

On 5/17/08, Bill Kendrick <nb...@so...> wrote:
> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 06:30:11PM -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:
>> Usage: Choose the select tool. Start painting. As you
>> paint, you get an outline just like the stamp ones.
>> There might be a stamp slot that fills in when you do
>> this, and maybe an opportunity to save it as a regular
>> stamp. Maybe there is more than one slot, with the
>> select tool overwriting the oldest one or causing the
>> list to scroll. Choose the fresh new stamp to use it.
>> Probably there should be a shrink-to-fit operation that
>> gets rid of excess background.
>
> A lot of this is not too far from what I had envisioned:
>
>   http://www.sonic.net/~nbs/tp-selection-mockup.png
>
> --
> -bill!
> bi...@ne...
> http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/
>
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Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] cut-and-paste, copy-and-paste

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 02:00:04AM -0400, Reilly Watson wrote:
> Albert, this is a nice idea, it's basically what I had in mind for
> selection.  I would also like some facility for turning one of these
> selections into a regular stamp.
> 
> Bill, I'm still not that keen on having Add/Remove Selection tools.  I
> think multiple selection adds a lot of UI complexity without enough to
> gain from it.  I love the elegance of being able to make a selection
> with a hole in it, but I'm concerned it comes at the expense of having
> some kids not use selections at all because they're bewildered by all
> the buttons.  That said, it's something I'm not against trying out to
> see what actual kids think of it.

I'm also not unwilling to make the 'remove from selection' tools something
that can be disabled for the younger users...

-bill!

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] cut-and-paste, copy-and-paste

[Albert C. <aca...@gm...>]

I don't want ANY of those selection operations.
It's way too complicated, and not even all that
useful. Those options take up space that could
instead be used for the user-created stamps.
Quickmask can do everything, and it works well.
There is no need for a "cut" operation either.

Good UI: just like the Stamps tool, except that
one column of buttons is brush sizes. When you
start painting, a new stamp is allocated. I guess
there needs to be a delete button too.

I also don't want any sort of persistent selection.
Once you leave the tool, the selection must go.

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] cut-and-paste, copy-and-paste

[Mark K. K. <mkk...@gm...>]

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 03:01:35AM -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:
> I don't want ANY of those selection operations.

I agree.  Too complicated = bad in kids apps.

Having said that, it's really up to the users.  But I do agree with
Albert that the current plans for the selection tool may be a little too
much and needs to slim down a bit.  Just a thought.

-Mark

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] cut-and-paste, copy-and-paste

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 04:38:15PM -0700, Mark K. Kim wrote:
> On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 03:01:35AM -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:
> > I don't want ANY of those selection operations.
> 
> I agree.  Too complicated = bad in kids apps.
> 
> Having said that, it's really up to the users.  But I do agree with
> Albert that the current plans for the selection tool may be a little too
> much and needs to slim down a bit.  Just a thought.

Well, we have less than a week before our GSoC students are to begin
full-time work on Tux Paint!  Let's try to iron it out before then.

Albert, step me through how a user makes a single selection.
To me, it would seem easier for _most_ things to be able to simply
'draw around it' (i.e., Lasso tool we all know and love).  For large
objects, having to paint every inch of it seems tedious. :^/

-- 
-bill!
bi...@ne...
http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] cut-and-paste, copy-and-paste

[Albert C. <aca...@gm...>]

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 8:00 PM, Bill Kendrick <nb...@so...> wrote:
> On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 04:38:15PM -0700, Mark K. Kim wrote:
>> On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 03:01:35AM -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:

>>> I don't want ANY of those selection operations.
>>
>> I agree.  Too complicated = bad in kids apps.
>>
>> Having said that, it's really up to the users.  But I do agree with
>> Albert that the current plans for the selection tool may be a little too
>> much and needs to slim down a bit.  Just a thought.
>
> Well, we have less than a week before our GSoC students are to begin
> full-time work on Tux Paint!  Let's try to iron it out before then.
>
> Albert, step me through how a user makes a single selection.
> To me, it would seem easier for _most_ things to be able to simply
> 'draw around it' (i.e., Lasso tool we all know and love).  For large
> objects, having to paint every inch of it seems tedious. :^/

Choose a brush. A fat one is the default. Paint with it.
As you paint, a stamp is created. Nothing appears in
the main canvas as you paint. When you like the stamp,
simply select it and use it. It works like any normal stamp.
There is no "cut" operation, and the "copy" operation
happens implicitly as soon as you start to paint.

That seems to avoid the problem of weird hidden state
and tools that seem to do nothing.

My use of complicated stuff:

I don't use the Lasso tool all that much. When working in
the gimp, I mostly just paint on a layer mask. Generally I
will have a green or magenta layer underneath the one I'm
working on. I use regular tools to paint on the layer mask.
Usually the mask is being applied as I work, so I'm seeing
my image appear/disappear as I paint. Sometimes I paint
while the layer mask is inactive, so I can't see anything
happen as I paint. Sometimes I view the layer mask as
itself while I paint.

For GUI mock-ups, I've used rectangle select and
elliptical select. I did this once, a couple years ago,
when designing the current Tux Paint color ovals.

For abusing gimp as a font editor, I've used rectangle
select and lasso select. Here I frequently drag the
selection: select, click inside and drag, click outside
to deselect.

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] cut-and-paste, copy-and-paste

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 03:06:26AM -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:
> Choose a brush. A fat one is the default. Paint with it.
> As you paint, a stamp is created. Nothing appears in
> the main canvas as you paint. When you like the stamp,
> simply select it and use it. It works like any normal stamp.
> There is no "cut" operation, and the "copy" operation
> happens implicitly as soon as you start to paint.

So if you select too much, how do you unselect, to get the 'perfect shape'?

Also, I think for kids who are drawing something sparse -- i.e., most of
their picture is background color -- a one-fell-swoop selection (like
rect, ellipse or lasso), with the addition of a 'snap to shape' would be
very useful for duplicating something they just drew.

Unfortunately, I see many ways of complicating the GUI, so I'd better
sit down and think about this more when I'm not doing 3 other things at
the same time. :)

-bill!

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] cut-and-paste, copy-and-paste

[Albert C. <aca...@gm...>]

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Bill Kendrick <nb...@so...> wrote:
> On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 03:06:26AM -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:
>> Choose a brush. A fat one is the default. Paint with it.
>> As you paint, a stamp is created. Nothing appears in
>> the main canvas as you paint. When you like the stamp,
>> simply select it and use it. It works like any normal stamp.
>> There is no "cut" operation, and the "copy" operation
>> happens implicitly as soon as you start to paint.
>
> So if you select too much, how do you unselect, to get the 'perfect shape'?

Most likely, you don't. Keep it simple.

It's possible to use the colors for this. Selections
can then be made with proper alpha, instead of
being binary.

> Also, I think for kids who are drawing something sparse -- i.e., most of
> their picture is background color -- a one-fell-swoop selection (like
> rect, ellipse or lasso), with the addition of a 'snap to shape' would be
> very useful for duplicating something they just drew.

Background removal can be done in any case.
You can't do it very well with snap-to-shape
because of the fringing problem.

Background removal could be done by default.
It could also be a button (or an undo button for
the default being to remove) to allow including
part of the background.