My current position is this: we have a working 0.6.1 build for Win32. I think we should test and release it as soon as possible, maybe as a version 0.6.1a, for all the Windows users who now download the latest tar.bz2 only to delete it a few minutes later. I believe this is a very bad first impression which alienates potential players and contributors.
The alternative to releasing 0.6.1a now is to release a "proper" 0.6.2 much later, giving us time to:
add back menu/credits background images
create a Windows icon
remove gear window (and put gear number in Rev dial)
add checkpoints counter during race (e.g. "7/11 checkpoints passed")
add a vehicles.config file to easily enable/disable vehicles globally
write a README for building on Windows
(anything else that is small and should be simple to do?)
So let's talk about the direction we will go in and possible changes to the game.
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0.6.1a now is simply not viable (too many changes in the code, and even though we have a working build), and we should not release that. Let us avoid pushing experimental binaries to our users, especially on code that was never released: it is more important to do this right, than to do it quickly.
0.6.2 is viable, however, and we can release it soon enough. Let's polish remaining talking points, and do that release. I absolutely agree that we need a Windows build sooner rather than later (and for what it's worth I've been pushing for this to happen for a very long time), but a week more or less is not a big deal given the time-scales on which Trigger historically operates. Moreover, a minimum couple of days of testing is needed on all platforms to make sure that recent changes don't break anything obvious.
We can leave most other items for 0.6.3 at a "later date".
The only item in the list above that I'd really like to see in 0.6.2 is a vehicles.config, as right now it's a bit of a mess. How difficult would that be to implement?
Also, we should integrate all new contributed tracks. Onsemeliot, could you collect the list of threads (or prepare an archive) with all new tracks that haven't yet been included?
Last edit: landroni 2015-05-05
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I like your proposals, Andrei: we could do a 0.6.2 release very soon without much hazzle. Further improvements can be added to the next release. This way we ensure it doesn't take too long to get a proper windows release.
I could help with the windows icon - if somebody can tell me what characteristics it needs to have. I could provide also background-images - even if I think the black isn't bad. I think the "logo" on the top right corner from my menu draft would do more for the look and feel.
Andei, do you know how to avoid the disproportional scaling of background-images we had in the past? It doesn't look good when images do get distorted on different aspect ratio screens. At least if those images are not deliberately abstract and therefore do not get strange with disproportional scaling.
My not yet included contributions since the 0.6.1 release:
I could help with the windows icon - if somebody can tell me what characteristics it needs to have.
It has to be ICO format and it should have six images inside it: 16x16, 32x32, 48x48, each in 256 colors and 24-bit color. I like the icon you've made for 0.6.1 but I think it would look better without the "Trigger" text. Just the red car.
Andei, do you know how to avoid the disproportional scaling of background-images we had in the past? It doesn't look good when images do get distorted on different aspect ratio screens.
No, I do not. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, but I'll have to learn SDL before I can tackle it. Also, nice work on the menu draft: I really like the idea of track thumbnails instead of text. But again, I'll need to learn SDL before I can do it.
Last edit: Onsemeliot 2015-05-06
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I removed the gear window, and moved the gear number to the left of the Rev dial. Let me know what you think. Here's a screenshot and the source code that you can build on Linux to test.
I did this because I felt the gear window took up too much space. Of course the current solution is not permanent (no gear icon, bad position, bad size etc.) but it's a step in the right direction.
Cleaning up the GUI is a nice idea. I have been playing with the cyan dial numbers and lines changed to white for years now.
How about we take some inspiration from modern rally games (screens: http://i.imgur.com/Ti1XPu2.jpg ) and unify RPM, Speed and Gear information into one dial?
Last edit: qubodup 2015-05-06
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Events:
Odd Coincidence (6 maps)
Coy Goblet (5 maps)
Single races:
Blunt (4:40)
Coffee Break (7:40)
Kraut (5:20)
Vital Turn (5:37)
Northern (7:00)
Year Zero (3:10)
Zone (5:00)
Northern, yearzero and zone are in trigger svn already. Or did you update them since?
I tested them a bit. http://youtu.be/3XTEz8MDAiI Nice work! The green on Grasshopper is a bit intense/cartoony
What do you think about svn-committing your maps and events yourself? :)
By the way, since apparently thanks to PhysFS, xml files can access all files in trigger, we might want to have all maps in data/maps/, for example data/maps/china and access it with "../../maps/china/china.level
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How about we take some inspiration from modern rally games (screens: http://i.imgur.com/Ti1XPu2.jpg ) and unify RPM, Speed and Gear information into one dial?
I was thinking about that too, although the double dial gives TR personality. It would however, waste less space to unify them into a slightly bigger rev dial which also shows gear and speed, complementing the map on the left.
From the screenshots I would vote for Colin McRae Rally 4 (the one with the yellow Punto if I'm not mistaken). It seems the easiest to imitate and looks sane.
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By the way, since apparently thanks to PhysFS, xml files can access all files in trigger, we might want to have all maps in data/maps/, for example data/maps/china and access it with "../../maps/china/china.level
I am against this idea. My reasoning, pros and cons:
PRO: all maps in /maps folder, which in appearance make sense
CON: event files get separated from their maps
CON: event maps get mixed with non-event maps, resulting in clutter both in-game for player and "out-game" for event creator
In the current setup there is simplicity and order. If event maps get put into the maps folder, event creators might have a harder time distributing their events and also it may become harder to manage them: "where exactly is my map in this folder containing 100+ other maps?", "hmm how is my map named? I must go check in that folder containing 100+ maps."
I want to make it clear: if both you and Onsemeliot (and any other active members) decide this change is for the best, I'll put it on my to-do list. However I really don't think it is.
Last edit: Andrei 2015-05-07
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Added checkpoints counter. A small bug is that after the last checkpoint is passed and the race is won, the first number becomes zero.
Anyway I'll have to shift my focus to GNU Autoconf tomorrow. I say this because I'm currently using the GLEW-less code, which you guys on Linux can't build without manually editing Jamfile. If you want it anyway let me know.
Let's forget about me mentioning merging maps. I didn't realize "Practice" allows to test event maps anyway - sorry, I usually only play "single race".
I like the layout and tried out a few colors and got stuck at no outer border, low interval, white markers. What do you think? http://i.imgur.com/UHTRkUb.jpg
The attached image is a drop-in replacement for the current dial_rev.png but of course the needle range is incorrect. Gear number would have to be moved and kph/mph shown as number and ideally the font would be used to write "kph" or "mph" as well.
I'm not sure what to do regarding critical (red) RPM range. It seems like our 3 cars have very different upper limits. I'd keep it neutral (no red). Alternatively we might want to make three graphics, one for each car.
For reference, here are the currently implemented four display modes (configurable in the trigger config file): http://i.imgur.com/QWn4ZMw.jpg
Unfortunately I won't be able to do much on the PC in the next few days, but I like the draft a lot. I would only recommend getting rid of the horizontal and vertical line in it. It probably looks even smarter without it.
Last edit: Onsemeliot 2015-05-08
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@Iwan, nice work on the dial rev! My suggestion would be to keep the horizontal and vertical lines in order to "cut out" the insides by making them more transparent than the rest.
If I'm successful in implementing this, we can distribute all styles and let the user choose (while we vote for a default).
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Partially implemented new unified dial. The current game font is simply not good for displaying small text (too thin + has dark outline), so I couldn't integrate "mph" and "km/h" in a way that looked nice.
A simple solution is to make two dials, one for mph and the other for km/h.
A difficult solution is to make another font, maybe "Impact" or "Arial Black" style. This would also be difficult for me because of the extra programming needed to support more fonts.
I suggest: two dials in the short term, and a clean dial + new font in the long run.
I didn't look at GNU Autoconf yet, so if you want the source code be warned it's the GLEW-less one which requires you to install libglew-dev and edit Jamconfig before running Jam. Sorry about that.
As for the new RPM dial it looks good but I think it could be a bit darker. Or have a transparent inside, like in older Colin McRae Rally games. We should experiment!
@Onsemeliot yours looks much better. Dials without number labels seem dysfunctional though and line bars similar to original Colin McRae Rally or WRC 4 might suit a label-less RPM indicator better.
I made a screenshot gallery with game names: http://imgur.com/a/GjT2y I have to say that I really like the Sega Rally look. Things I noticed from other games, which we might want to follow:
1. Gear number is big and never labelled
2. White dial backgrounds are never transparent
3. Circular dials are always labeled.
It seems that Trigger's RPM count (up to 12k) is ridiculously high compared to other games. I don't know anything about cars so I can't really tell but if it is true, we can:
1. ignore it
2. hide it (don't show RPM number)
3. fix it (requires car physics knowledgeable mind) :)
"cut out" the insides
I tried that in the attached files. The font I used is Montserrat. On Linux put it into ~/.fonts/ for Inkscape to see it.
Feedback/suggestions welcome. I'd be fine with us following Onsemeliot's style as well. It's probably Andrei's call, since it might be more complicated to implement.
@Ivan I think your new draft looks considerably more modern. What I have noticed from your gerat screenshot-research is the fact that the mph or kph are considered to be less important. It's more or less just an additional small value. The rpm seems to be the most important thing in most games. I guess it's relevant if you do not use automatic. (I never was fond of changing the gears myself. Therefore so far the rpm value didn't interest me at all.
I would still want to replace the pointer for Andreis first version with the thicker center and the angular end.
If it is no big fuss I would love the option to get rid of the complete dial. At the moment it's possible to remove the map, but not the dial.
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@Iwan I really like the new dial you made. Don't forget, we can also change the color and shape of the needle so let me know if you have ideas how to change it.
@Onsemeliot Your style of dial is outside my capabilities right now. It's more complicated than simply drawing a red triangle as a needle (what we have now).
As for having a key to turn off the dial, that's a good idea and I'll put that on my To-Do list.
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@Andrei can you currently do any of the following?
1. use an image for the pointer needle
2. draw another image on top of the Interface (I'd like a knob-like thing on top of the center like in the Sega Rally games)
3. draw two shapes for the pointer needle, to create an outline for example.
My current position is this: we have a working 0.6.1 build for Win32. I think we should test and release it as soon as possible, maybe as a version 0.6.1a, for all the Windows users who now download the latest tar.bz2 only to delete it a few minutes later. I believe this is a very bad first impression which alienates potential players and contributors.
The alternative to releasing 0.6.1a now is to release a "proper" 0.6.2 much later, giving us time to:
So let's talk about the direction we will go in and possible changes to the game.
0.6.1a now is simply not viable (too many changes in the code, and even though we have a working build), and we should not release that. Let us avoid pushing experimental binaries to our users, especially on code that was never released: it is more important to do this right, than to do it quickly.
0.6.2 is viable, however, and we can release it soon enough. Let's polish remaining talking points, and do that release. I absolutely agree that we need a Windows build sooner rather than later (and for what it's worth I've been pushing for this to happen for a very long time), but a week more or less is not a big deal given the time-scales on which Trigger historically operates. Moreover, a minimum couple of days of testing is needed on all platforms to make sure that recent changes don't break anything obvious.
We can leave most other items for 0.6.3 at a "later date".
The only item in the list above that I'd really like to see in 0.6.2 is a vehicles.config, as right now it's a bit of a mess. How difficult would that be to implement?
Also, we should integrate all new contributed tracks. Onsemeliot, could you collect the list of threads (or prepare an archive) with all new tracks that haven't yet been included?
Last edit: landroni 2015-05-05
I like your proposals, Andrei: we could do a 0.6.2 release very soon without much hazzle. Further improvements can be added to the next release. This way we ensure it doesn't take too long to get a proper windows release.
I could help with the windows icon - if somebody can tell me what characteristics it needs to have. I could provide also background-images - even if I think the black isn't bad. I think the "logo" on the top right corner from my menu draft would do more for the look and feel.
Andei, do you know how to avoid the disproportional scaling of background-images we had in the past? It doesn't look good when images do get distorted on different aspect ratio screens. At least if those images are not deliberately abstract and therefore do not get strange with disproportional scaling.
My not yet included contributions since the 0.6.1 release:
Events:
Single races:
Last edit: Onsemeliot 2015-05-06
It has to be ICO format and it should have six images inside it: 16x16, 32x32, 48x48, each in 256 colors and 24-bit color. I like the icon you've made for 0.6.1 but I think it would look better without the "Trigger" text. Just the red car.
No, I do not. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, but I'll have to learn SDL before I can tackle it. Also, nice work on the menu draft: I really like the idea of track thumbnails instead of text. But again, I'll need to learn SDL before I can do it.
Last edit: Onsemeliot 2015-05-06
Attached I send you the requested icons. I never did those so far. Please check if it's done properly!
Yes it is, good work, I will use it for the Win32 binary when we release it.
Change #1
I removed the gear window, and moved the gear number to the left of the Rev dial. Let me know what you think. Here's a screenshot and the source code that you can build on Linux to test.
I did this because I felt the gear window took up too much space. Of course the current solution is not permanent (no gear icon, bad position, bad size etc.) but it's a step in the right direction.
Files changed:
http://www.fileconvoy.com/dfl.php?id=g5d1fe6fb4f90cdac999660027d4d5c61fa602a07c
EDIT: my screenshots keep getting messed up.
Last edit: Andrei 2015-05-06
Great. I like that.
Cleaning up the GUI is a nice idea. I have been playing with the cyan dial numbers and lines changed to white for years now.
How about we take some inspiration from modern rally games (screens: http://i.imgur.com/Ti1XPu2.jpg ) and unify RPM, Speed and Gear information into one dial?
Last edit: qubodup 2015-05-06
PS:
Northern, yearzero and zone are in trigger svn already. Or did you update them since?
I tested them a bit. http://youtu.be/3XTEz8MDAiI Nice work! The green on Grasshopper is a bit intense/cartoony
What do you think about svn-committing your maps and events yourself? :)
By the way, since apparently thanks to PhysFS, xml files can access all files in trigger, we might want to have all maps in data/maps/, for example data/maps/china and access it with "../../maps/china/china.level
No. I guess somebody made an update after our last release.
Your monitor has probably more vivid colors than mine.
This is probably a good idea. Unfortunately I did't get around to check how svn works yet.
How do we declare which maps are event maps only then?
I was thinking about that too, although the double dial gives TR personality. It would however, waste less space to unify them into a slightly bigger rev dial which also shows gear and speed, complementing the map on the left.
From the screenshots I would vote for Colin McRae Rally 4 (the one with the yellow Punto if I'm not mistaken). It seems the easiest to imitate and looks sane.
I am against this idea. My reasoning, pros and cons:
In the current setup there is simplicity and order. If event maps get put into the maps folder, event creators might have a harder time distributing their events and also it may become harder to manage them: "where exactly is my map in this folder containing 100+ other maps?", "hmm how is my map named? I must go check in that folder containing 100+ maps."
I want to make it clear: if both you and Onsemeliot (and any other active members) decide this change is for the best, I'll put it on my to-do list. However I really don't think it is.
Last edit: Andrei 2015-05-07
Back to the unified dial idea, what do you people think about something like this?
Change #2
Added checkpoints counter. A small bug is that after the last checkpoint is passed and the race is won, the first number becomes zero.
Anyway I'll have to shift my focus to GNU Autoconf tomorrow. I say this because I'm currently using the GLEW-less code, which you guys on Linux can't build without manually editing Jamfile. If you want it anyway let me know.
Files changed:
Let's forget about me mentioning merging maps. I didn't realize "Practice" allows to test event maps anyway - sorry, I usually only play "single race".
I like the layout and tried out a few colors and got stuck at no outer border, low interval, white markers. What do you think?
http://i.imgur.com/UHTRkUb.jpg
The attached image is a drop-in replacement for the current dial_rev.png but of course the needle range is incorrect. Gear number would have to be moved and kph/mph shown as number and ideally the font would be used to write "kph" or "mph" as well.
I'm not sure what to do regarding critical (red) RPM range. It seems like our 3 cars have very different upper limits. I'd keep it neutral (no red). Alternatively we might want to make three graphics, one for each car.
For reference, here are the currently implemented four display modes (configurable in the trigger config file): http://i.imgur.com/QWn4ZMw.jpg
Unfortunately I won't be able to do much on the PC in the next few days, but I like the draft a lot. I would only recommend getting rid of the horizontal and vertical line in it. It probably looks even smarter without it.
Last edit: Onsemeliot 2015-05-08
@Iwan, nice work on the dial rev! My suggestion would be to keep the horizontal and vertical lines in order to "cut out" the insides by making them more transparent than the rest.
If I'm successful in implementing this, we can distribute all styles and let the user choose (while we vote for a default).
Change #3
Partially implemented new unified dial. The current game font is simply not good for displaying small text (too thin + has dark outline), so I couldn't integrate "mph" and "km/h" in a way that looked nice.
I didn't look at GNU Autoconf yet, so if you want the source code be warned it's the GLEW-less one which requires you to install libglew-dev and edit Jamconfig before running Jam. Sorry about that.
As for the new RPM dial it looks good but I think it could be a bit darker. Or have a transparent inside, like in older Colin McRae Rally games. We should experiment!
Last edit: Andrei 2015-05-08
Note that the color and shape of the dial arrow can also be changed. We could have a free-floating style arrow as shown in the screenshots below.
For a regular arrow style I think we should put back the black knob at the center of the dial (see original dials).
Last edit: Andrei 2015-05-09
I made an alternative draft too. I think showing bigger values and bigger dials is better than using a lot of numbers ...
@Onsemeliot yours looks much better. Dials without number labels seem dysfunctional though and line bars similar to original Colin McRae Rally or WRC 4 might suit a label-less RPM indicator better.
I made a screenshot gallery with game names: http://imgur.com/a/GjT2y I have to say that I really like the Sega Rally look. Things I noticed from other games, which we might want to follow:
1. Gear number is big and never labelled
2. White dial backgrounds are never transparent
3. Circular dials are always labeled.
It seems that Trigger's RPM count (up to 12k) is ridiculously high compared to other games. I don't know anything about cars so I can't really tell but if it is true, we can:
1. ignore it
2. hide it (don't show RPM number)
3. fix it (requires car physics knowledgeable mind) :)
I tried that in the attached files. The font I used is Montserrat. On Linux put it into ~/.fonts/ for Inkscape to see it.
Feedback/suggestions welcome. I'd be fine with us following Onsemeliot's style as well. It's probably Andrei's call, since it might be more complicated to implement.
@Ivan I think your new draft looks considerably more modern. What I have noticed from your gerat screenshot-research is the fact that the mph or kph are considered to be less important. It's more or less just an additional small value. The rpm seems to be the most important thing in most games. I guess it's relevant if you do not use automatic. (I never was fond of changing the gears myself. Therefore so far the rpm value didn't interest me at all.
I would still want to replace the pointer for Andreis first version with the thicker center and the angular end.
If it is no big fuss I would love the option to get rid of the complete dial. At the moment it's possible to remove the map, but not the dial.
@Iwan I really like the new dial you made. Don't forget, we can also change the color and shape of the needle so let me know if you have ideas how to change it.
@Onsemeliot Your style of dial is outside my capabilities right now. It's more complicated than simply drawing a red triangle as a needle (what we have now).
As for having a key to turn off the dial, that's a good idea and I'll put that on my To-Do list.
@Onsimeliot Could you draw the pointer you want? Something like one of http://i.imgur.com/CJFGiE1.jpg ?
@Andrei can you currently do any of the following?
1. use an image for the pointer needle
2. draw another image on top of the Interface (I'd like a knob-like thing on top of the center like in the Sega Rally games)
3. draw two shapes for the pointer needle, to create an outline for example.
Here's the version I ended up this time:
http://i.imgur.com/JQxRyv9.jpg