Oops I accidentally posted this in the internal forum (while I think you have access there it requires logging in and as such is a bit restrictive).
Okay is one of hopefully many specific threads about various game aspects.
What I ask whether the concept of number of available males in suitable age for military service mattered a lot to a daimyô who wanted to recruit an army. Or were costs of upkeep so prohibitive that such a physical limit never was met? It also depends on exactly how people were drafted. I read some documents were vassals/retainers apparently were responsible to field a number of men related to the amount of land they held for their lord's army. Coupled with the fact peasants paid taxes in rice it would seem it wouldn't be a concern to ever find enough men. (The limit would rather be how much rice was produced, hence the land controlled directly or through vassals mattered more.)
Partly the answer would be easier with total population statistics in mind. I found out the total population alternated around 25 millions in the early 18th century (staying relatively constant for long). I wasn't able to find anything earlier than that though, so a bit of research would help here. Also, we can look at the biggest battles; Sekigahara in 1600 for example had around 150 000 participants combined. That was a pretty big chunk of total drafted armies at that specific time considering the line up. Overall it means (not just related to this manpower issue), we should strive for end game armies of that size.
It is arguably more simple just to let the economic model decide all aspects of troop recruitment. However, I feel it's pretty boring (it's also exactly like in Shogun: Total War) and Crusader Kings. Another factor introduced would mean more strategic consideration for the player.
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For starters, I think the maximum should be limited by the income, for simplicity. Then you could always add more direct or indirect limitations later on to make it more interesting (fortress size, number of retainer officers/whatever). I think this is a better historical solution than manpower supply as well.
I do think the system should be a bit similar to CK though, in the sense that most part of the army you have should be dormant until you mobilize it (which should take some time), instead of having some kind of standing army. Different from CK, you should be able to increase or decrease its size or train the army, even if you don't actually mobilize it.
Now I don't know exactly how a feudal Japanese army was structured, but one idea is to keep it similar with CK again, in the sense you only should handle the dormant army of your town/province, and your vassal towns and provinces should handle theirs (smaller, since they pay alot to you :) until you call for them.
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As an example on the issue how the army could be structured by mobilizing vassals, here's a breakdown on the armies at Sekigahara: http://www.geocities.com/azuchiwind/map2.htm
Notice than the personal army of the leaders only stand for a fraction of the total.
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Perhaps calling the "provincial/town regiment" to arms should decrease production in the province/town for the duration of the call? Do you got any insight into rice cultivation and what periods that are labour intense? lol
By the way, I'm unsure about what a town versus a province represents in gameplay, we really need to work that out. What properties does a province has that a town hasn't etc.
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I don't know about rice cultivation, but it shouldn't be too hard to find out.
Different warlords had different kind of armies, some relied much on reservists, ie peasants that was called in to fight a short season, other more on proffessional armies. Preferably it should be possible to have both more or less conscripted ashigaru as well as samurai, and each town/province ruler builds up his army himself instead of having some auto-buildup ala CK (it should still be dormant and not *that* expensive until you mobilize it though). Hopefully one of the Japanese guys from Pdox can show up here, since much sources are in Japanese.
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How are the armies supposed to march btw? One in each province, and then you siege all castles together, or will there be a roadnet between the castles instead? A 'roadnet' system is already needed for the provinces, so extending it to castles/towns might not be that hard? It would also make the strategic warfare *alot* more realistic than compared to CK/EU or Shogun. Which would be great, seeing the whole game is about a civil war after all.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Has been away this week, and will be busy the next. I'm going to try to make some graphics after that though, and wondered what kind of armies we will need. Now I have only created the basic ashigaru model I posted an example of, and a warrior monk. How many will be needed? A gunner perhaps, and ronin/bandits/rebels? Cavalry maybe. Shall all the clans use the same sprite, or shall we have a few different basic ones, or shall we have a few specially made ones for a few more famous clans? Or maybe just have 3-4 basic armies (spearmen/gunners/cavalry/whatnot) and determine from troop composition instead?
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Sorry I've been pretty busy too (well "busy" with other stuff than this game that is). I should get started again now though.
Okay for first part, keep the banners and actual troops separated. That is, so that we don't need separate sprites for different clans other than the banners (and we could still use a generic color coded banner for less known clans). Regarding troop types, that's a very tough question.
Consider that only one troop sprite will be displayed regardless of the actual army composition. Thus I wonder what troop types would be in a majority. If you have time we could have the following sprites selected depending on the most important component in the displayed army:
Spearman (ashiguru inf)
Swordsman (samurai inf)
Arquebus gunner (did I spell right?)
Cavalry (with spear or sword?)
Importance of a sprite could be determined like:
I = TT1 * C1 + TT2 * C2 + ...
Where TT stands for a troop type which is relevant to the importance of the tested sprite, and C being a coefficient we must determine.
The monk and rebel can work if made specific for the corresponding special factions. However, what's the difference between an ashiguru and a rebel? I think the monk would be more different, thus perhaps more relevant for a specific sprite such as you've already done. :)
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We probably don't need any special rebel sprite, we can indeed use ashigaru for that. The monk can only be used for a town/castle controlled by such a special faction if such will exist. There were quite a few such lairs/fortresses, and having them would be an interesting touch.
The banners will be separated of course, but another question is whether to keep the shadows I've made on them. That's just a detail, but I need to know before I start render a lot of them. No hurry at all though, it goes relatively quickly to fix. I have collected/made textures for about 40 clans, but many are missing. Maybe I'll start a thread so people can contribute to that. Pdox flags and CoA threads grow huge, so maybe some people can be lured here by a little such task ;)
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Oops I accidentally posted this in the internal forum (while I think you have access there it requires logging in and as such is a bit restrictive).
Okay is one of hopefully many specific threads about various game aspects.
What I ask whether the concept of number of available males in suitable age for military service mattered a lot to a daimyô who wanted to recruit an army. Or were costs of upkeep so prohibitive that such a physical limit never was met? It also depends on exactly how people were drafted. I read some documents were vassals/retainers apparently were responsible to field a number of men related to the amount of land they held for their lord's army. Coupled with the fact peasants paid taxes in rice it would seem it wouldn't be a concern to ever find enough men. (The limit would rather be how much rice was produced, hence the land controlled directly or through vassals mattered more.)
Partly the answer would be easier with total population statistics in mind. I found out the total population alternated around 25 millions in the early 18th century (staying relatively constant for long). I wasn't able to find anything earlier than that though, so a bit of research would help here. Also, we can look at the biggest battles; Sekigahara in 1600 for example had around 150 000 participants combined. That was a pretty big chunk of total drafted armies at that specific time considering the line up. Overall it means (not just related to this manpower issue), we should strive for end game armies of that size.
It is arguably more simple just to let the economic model decide all aspects of troop recruitment. However, I feel it's pretty boring (it's also exactly like in Shogun: Total War) and Crusader Kings. Another factor introduced would mean more strategic consideration for the player.
For starters, I think the maximum should be limited by the income, for simplicity. Then you could always add more direct or indirect limitations later on to make it more interesting (fortress size, number of retainer officers/whatever). I think this is a better historical solution than manpower supply as well.
I do think the system should be a bit similar to CK though, in the sense that most part of the army you have should be dormant until you mobilize it (which should take some time), instead of having some kind of standing army. Different from CK, you should be able to increase or decrease its size or train the army, even if you don't actually mobilize it.
Now I don't know exactly how a feudal Japanese army was structured, but one idea is to keep it similar with CK again, in the sense you only should handle the dormant army of your town/province, and your vassal towns and provinces should handle theirs (smaller, since they pay alot to you :) until you call for them.
As an example on the issue how the army could be structured by mobilizing vassals, here's a breakdown on the armies at Sekigahara: http://www.geocities.com/azuchiwind/map2.htm
Notice than the personal army of the leaders only stand for a fraction of the total.
Arg, I hate you can't edit.
Addition to above: as you might see the bolded names are mostly vassals ruling over a whole province or more.
Perhaps calling the "provincial/town regiment" to arms should decrease production in the province/town for the duration of the call? Do you got any insight into rice cultivation and what periods that are labour intense? lol
By the way, I'm unsure about what a town versus a province represents in gameplay, we really need to work that out. What properties does a province has that a town hasn't etc.
I don't know about rice cultivation, but it shouldn't be too hard to find out.
Different warlords had different kind of armies, some relied much on reservists, ie peasants that was called in to fight a short season, other more on proffessional armies. Preferably it should be possible to have both more or less conscripted ashigaru as well as samurai, and each town/province ruler builds up his army himself instead of having some auto-buildup ala CK (it should still be dormant and not *that* expensive until you mobilize it though). Hopefully one of the Japanese guys from Pdox can show up here, since much sources are in Japanese.
How are the armies supposed to march btw? One in each province, and then you siege all castles together, or will there be a roadnet between the castles instead? A 'roadnet' system is already needed for the provinces, so extending it to castles/towns might not be that hard? It would also make the strategic warfare *alot* more realistic than compared to CK/EU or Shogun. Which would be great, seeing the whole game is about a civil war after all.
Has been away this week, and will be busy the next. I'm going to try to make some graphics after that though, and wondered what kind of armies we will need. Now I have only created the basic ashigaru model I posted an example of, and a warrior monk. How many will be needed? A gunner perhaps, and ronin/bandits/rebels? Cavalry maybe. Shall all the clans use the same sprite, or shall we have a few different basic ones, or shall we have a few specially made ones for a few more famous clans? Or maybe just have 3-4 basic armies (spearmen/gunners/cavalry/whatnot) and determine from troop composition instead?
Sorry I've been pretty busy too (well "busy" with other stuff than this game that is). I should get started again now though.
Okay for first part, keep the banners and actual troops separated. That is, so that we don't need separate sprites for different clans other than the banners (and we could still use a generic color coded banner for less known clans). Regarding troop types, that's a very tough question.
Consider that only one troop sprite will be displayed regardless of the actual army composition. Thus I wonder what troop types would be in a majority. If you have time we could have the following sprites selected depending on the most important component in the displayed army:
Spearman (ashiguru inf)
Swordsman (samurai inf)
Arquebus gunner (did I spell right?)
Cavalry (with spear or sword?)
Importance of a sprite could be determined like:
I = TT1 * C1 + TT2 * C2 + ...
Where TT stands for a troop type which is relevant to the importance of the tested sprite, and C being a coefficient we must determine.
The monk and rebel can work if made specific for the corresponding special factions. However, what's the difference between an ashiguru and a rebel? I think the monk would be more different, thus perhaps more relevant for a specific sprite such as you've already done. :)
That sounds good.
We probably don't need any special rebel sprite, we can indeed use ashigaru for that. The monk can only be used for a town/castle controlled by such a special faction if such will exist. There were quite a few such lairs/fortresses, and having them would be an interesting touch.
The banners will be separated of course, but another question is whether to keep the shadows I've made on them. That's just a detail, but I need to know before I start render a lot of them. No hurry at all though, it goes relatively quickly to fix. I have collected/made textures for about 40 clans, but many are missing. Maybe I'll start a thread so people can contribute to that. Pdox flags and CoA threads grow huge, so maybe some people can be lured here by a little such task ;)