rails-devel — List for discussion of Rails development

[Rails-devel] 18MEX spreadsheet

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

I suppose I should mention that 18MEX spreadsheet I linked is an active
game.  Please don't make changes to the active spreadsheet (currently
OR6a).  The game is in the last set of ORs, so no problem if anyone edits
earlier tabs on the spreadsheet.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

I sent you a personal invitation to edit the spreadsheet.  That should let
you double click anywhere there is a formula (all the salmon colored cells,
for example) and see the underlying formula.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.


On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote:

>  At a glance? Hmm... but I suppose you'll get accustomed to it pretty soon
> ;-)
> Basically the speadsheet looks like the Game Status window turned 90
> degrees, and with detailed OR info added.
> Putting copies of all that with extra info in yet another window is doable.
>
> But I doubt if such a window would be easy to use for entering moves (also
> given the limitations of Java Swing),
> so I guess the current windows would need to stay for that purpose.
>
> BTW the double-clicking didn't work for me.
>
> The Rails architecture is based upon the idea that one day we will have a
> central server, where the game engine runs, which also has all the data.
> Each player has a client showing the UI. And there might be a (playing or
> non-playing) moderator also having a client.
> Players can only undo their own moves, only the moderator can undo across
> player turns.
> Hence the difference between Undo and Forced Undo.
>
> But I'm afraid we are still pretty far away from a full implementation of
> that idea.
> In the current version it is rather a pain to have this player/moderator
> difference, so perhaps it would be better to remove it for the time being.
>
> Erik.
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Chris Shaffer [mailto:chr...@gm...]
> *Sent:* Thursday 26 November 2009 23:37
>
> *To:* Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> *Subject:* Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug
>
> My response to this is that I would suggest that you remove some of the
> information data table from the Map window and create a separate Table
> window with the kind of information I'm describing. It's clear that one of
> the barriers to adding information is that the Map window is cluttered with
> a lot of information and adding columns/data to it is undesirable.
>
> The Report Window is necessary and useful.  A few enhancements could make
> it easier to read, but I'm not advocating doing away with it. I'm just
> suggesting that data tables would be a good supplement, as would replay of
> tiles.
>
> p.s. Undo doesn't seem to work as I would expect.  I find the interaction
> between Undo and Forced Undo a bit confusing.  Maybe it would be possible to
> let someone double click the name of a company in the map window and then
> step through that company's turn?  A set of actions is either a company turn
> or once around the table in the stock round.  I'm used to seeing stock round
> displays like this:
>
> player A action
> player B action
> player C action
>
> player A action
> player B action
> player C action
>
> I hope everyone takes these as suggestions for improvement and not just as
> criticisms of the current design.  I'm thrilled to have Rails available and
> foresee that in the not-so-distant future it will entirely replace playing
> by Vassal and CyberBoard for me.  It's great.
>
> I'll admit to being someone who found Lemmi's Moderator display to be a bit
> inferior to the spreadsheets that are available for play now.  Take a look
> at this spreadsheet:
>
>
> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqDz8TiDzvbXdFo0MlJ5b2diX21ISXNWWkhGMnc0QXc&hl=en
>
> It shows at a glance what has happened during each operating round.
> Admittedly, the information in the stock round tabs is less informative.
> Take a look at the OR5a sheet.  You can see at a glance what each company
> did with its money on the OR.  You can even double click the 740 amount paid
> and see that Pac paid 300 for one train (presumably from the bank) and 440
> for another, which must obviously have been from Mex.
>
> --
> Chris
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote:
>
>>  So, a few suggestions for improvement in the Report Window.
>>
>> 1) It always opens to the top of the file. You have to scroll to the
>> bottom to begin.
>>
>> Done. Next version will scroll down on reload.
>>
>> 2) There is no indication of when your own last action occurred.  You have
>> to scroll up, reading the text, to find an indication of what is "new."  In
>> PBEM, you get this information in packets of text as each company operates,
>> and it isn't mashed together with everything else that happened the entire
>> game.
>>
>> Of course, but Rails is not specifically tailored for PBEM yet. The Report
>> window is a complete report (I plan to add Save and Print buttons to it)
>> that by nature contains everything.
>>
>> 3) Judicious use of bold and spacing would make it much easier to read.
>> Right now, each OR is one long string of text with only line breaks. It's
>> hard to see at a glance where a set of actions begins and ends.  We could
>> also use highlighting for particularly important actions - train purchases
>> in red, private purchases in yellow, etc.
>>
>> What do you call a "set of actions"? A player turn?
>>
>> 4) In every PBEM I've ever played, we rely heavily on the spreadsheet to
>> give us at-a-glance information, which is nowhere near as accessible in the
>> text, whether that text is in the various emails or in the Rails Report
>> Window.
>>
>> And? I what ways is such a spreadsheet different from what you see in the
>> Rails screens?
>> BTW as regards contents, the Rails UI is strongly inspired by Lemmi's
>> moderator.
>>
>> 5) In every PBEM I have ever played, there is a "replay" mode (Vassal and
>> CyberBoard both have this) where you can watch what happened since your last
>> turn.  This gives you visual indications of which tiles have been laid, what
>> movements occurred on the stock market, etc.
>>
>> You have Undo/Redo to play with if you want. A feature to slowly replay
>> from the start or some other point would not be unthinkable.
>>
>> To be honest, the combination of 4 and 5 means that I virtually never read
>> the text summaries that are sent in PBEM games.  They are only used (by me)
>> for debugging when there are problems.  I can almost always assess the
>> situation at a glance by watching the replay and glancing at the
>> spreadsheet.
>>
>> Well, you sure have raised some food for thought.
>>
>> p.s. it is very well documented that tables and graphics are easier to
>> assess "at a glance" than text.  In almost every case in Rails, perhaps with
>> the exception of stock round purchases, tables and graphics win out in the
>> usability question over text logs by a mile and a half.
>> Sure, but the UI is mainly intended to show the current status, whereas
>> the Report has the history. That's the way it is for now...
>>
>> Erik.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
>> 30-Day
>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
>> on
>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
>> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rails-devel mailing list
>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
> on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug

[Erik V. <eri...@hc...>]

At a glance? Hmm... but I suppose you'll get accustomed to it pretty soon
;-) 
Basically the speadsheet looks like the Game Status window turned 90
degrees, and with detailed OR info added.
Putting copies of all that with extra info in yet another window is doable. 
But I doubt if such a window would be easy to use for entering moves (also
given the limitations of Java Swing),
so I guess the current windows would need to stay for that purpose.
 
BTW the double-clicking didn't work for me.
 
The Rails architecture is based upon the idea that one day we will have a
central server, where the game engine runs, which also has all the data.
Each player has a client showing the UI. And there might be a (playing or
non-playing) moderator also having a client. 
Players can only undo their own moves, only the moderator can undo across
player turns.
Hence the difference between Undo and Forced Undo.
 
But I'm afraid we are still pretty far away from a full implementation of
that idea.
In the current version it is rather a pain to have this player/moderator
difference, so perhaps it would be better to remove it for the time being.
 
Erik.


  _____  

From: Chris Shaffer [mailto:chr...@gm...] 
Sent: Thursday 26 November 2009 23:37
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug


My response to this is that I would suggest that you remove some of the
information data table from the Map window and create a separate Table
window with the kind of information I'm describing. It's clear that one of
the barriers to adding information is that the Map window is cluttered with
a lot of information and adding columns/data to it is undesirable.

The Report Window is necessary and useful.  A few enhancements could make it
easier to read, but I'm not advocating doing away with it. I'm just
suggesting that data tables would be a good supplement, as would replay of
tiles.

p.s. Undo doesn't seem to work as I would expect.  I find the interaction
between Undo and Forced Undo a bit confusing.  Maybe it would be possible to
let someone double click the name of a company in the map window and then
step through that company's turn?  A set of actions is either a company turn
or once around the table in the stock round.  I'm used to seeing stock round
displays like this:

player A action
player B action
player C action

player A action
player B action
player C action

I hope everyone takes these as suggestions for improvement and not just as
criticisms of the current design.  I'm thrilled to have Rails available and
foresee that in the not-so-distant future it will entirely replace playing
by Vassal and CyberBoard for me.  It's great.

I'll admit to being someone who found Lemmi's Moderator display to be a bit
inferior to the spreadsheets that are available for play now.  Take a look
at this spreadsheet:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqDz8TiDzvbXdFo0MlJ5b2diX21ISXNWWkh
GMnc0QXc
<https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqDz8TiDzvbXdFo0MlJ5b2diX21ISXNWWk
hGMnc0QXc&hl=en> &hl=en

It shows at a glance what has happened during each operating round.
Admittedly, the information in the stock round tabs is less informative.
Take a look at the OR5a sheet.  You can see at a glance what each company
did with its money on the OR.  You can even double click the 740 amount paid
and see that Pac paid 300 for one train (presumably from the bank) and 440
for another, which must obviously have been from Mex.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.



On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote:


So, a few suggestions for improvement in the Report Window.

1) It always opens to the top of the file. You have to scroll to the bottom
to begin.
 
Done. Next version will scroll down on reload.

2) There is no indication of when your own last action occurred.  You have
to scroll up, reading the text, to find an indication of what is "new."  In
PBEM, you get this information in packets of text as each company operates,
and it isn't mashed together with everything else that happened the entire
game.
 
Of course, but Rails is not specifically tailored for PBEM yet. The Report
window is a complete report (I plan to add Save and Print buttons to it)
that by nature contains everything.

3) Judicious use of bold and spacing would make it much easier to read.
Right now, each OR is one long string of text with only line breaks. It's
hard to see at a glance where a set of actions begins and ends.  We could
also use highlighting for particularly important actions - train purchases
in red, private purchases in yellow, etc.
 
What do you call a "set of actions"? A player turn?

4) In every PBEM I've ever played, we rely heavily on the spreadsheet to
give us at-a-glance information, which is nowhere near as accessible in the
text, whether that text is in the various emails or in the Rails Report
Window.
 
And? I what ways is such a spreadsheet different from what you see in the
Rails screens?
BTW as regards contents, the Rails UI is strongly inspired by Lemmi's
moderator.

5) In every PBEM I have ever played, there is a "replay" mode (Vassal and
CyberBoard both have this) where you can watch what happened since your last
turn.  This gives you visual indications of which tiles have been laid, what
movements occurred on the stock market, etc.
 
You have Undo/Redo to play with if you want. A feature to slowly replay from
the start or some other point would not be unthinkable.

To be honest, the combination of 4 and 5 means that I virtually never read
the text summaries that are sent in PBEM games.  They are only used (by me)
for debugging when there are problems.  I can almost always assess the
situation at a glance by watching the replay and glancing at the
spreadsheet.
 
Well, you sure have raised some food for thought.
 
p.s. it is very well documented that tables and graphics are easier to
assess "at a glance" than text.  In almost every case in Rails, perhaps with
the exception of stock round purchases, tables and graphics win out in the
usability question over text logs by a mile and a half.

Sure, but the UI is mainly intended to show the current status, whereas the
Report has the history. That's the way it is for now... 
 
Erik.
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
on
what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
_______________________________________________
Rails-devel mailing list
Rai...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

My response to this is that I would suggest that you remove some of the
information data table from the Map window and create a separate Table
window with the kind of information I'm describing. It's clear that one of
the barriers to adding information is that the Map window is cluttered with
a lot of information and adding columns/data to it is undesirable.

The Report Window is necessary and useful.  A few enhancements could make it
easier to read, but I'm not advocating doing away with it. I'm just
suggesting that data tables would be a good supplement, as would replay of
tiles.

p.s. Undo doesn't seem to work as I would expect.  I find the interaction
between Undo and Forced Undo a bit confusing.  Maybe it would be possible to
let someone double click the name of a company in the map window and then
step through that company's turn?  A set of actions is either a company turn
or once around the table in the stock round.  I'm used to seeing stock round
displays like this:

player A action
player B action
player C action

player A action
player B action
player C action

I hope everyone takes these as suggestions for improvement and not just as
criticisms of the current design.  I'm thrilled to have Rails available and
foresee that in the not-so-distant future it will entirely replace playing
by Vassal and CyberBoard for me.  It's great.

I'll admit to being someone who found Lemmi's Moderator display to be a bit
inferior to the spreadsheets that are available for play now.  Take a look
at this spreadsheet:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqDz8TiDzvbXdFo0MlJ5b2diX21ISXNWWkhGMnc0QXc&hl=en

It shows at a glance what has happened during each operating round.
Admittedly, the information in the stock round tabs is less informative.
Take a look at the OR5a sheet.  You can see at a glance what each company
did with its money on the OR.  You can even double click the 740 amount paid
and see that Pac paid 300 for one train (presumably from the bank) and 440
for another, which must obviously have been from Mex.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.


On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote:

>  So, a few suggestions for improvement in the Report Window.
>
> 1) It always opens to the top of the file. You have to scroll to the bottom
> to begin.
>
> Done. Next version will scroll down on reload.
>
> 2) There is no indication of when your own last action occurred.  You have
> to scroll up, reading the text, to find an indication of what is "new."  In
> PBEM, you get this information in packets of text as each company operates,
> and it isn't mashed together with everything else that happened the entire
> game.
>
> Of course, but Rails is not specifically tailored for PBEM yet. The Report
> window is a complete report (I plan to add Save and Print buttons to it)
> that by nature contains everything.
>
> 3) Judicious use of bold and spacing would make it much easier to read.
> Right now, each OR is one long string of text with only line breaks. It's
> hard to see at a glance where a set of actions begins and ends.  We could
> also use highlighting for particularly important actions - train purchases
> in red, private purchases in yellow, etc.
>
> What do you call a "set of actions"? A player turn?
>
> 4) In every PBEM I've ever played, we rely heavily on the spreadsheet to
> give us at-a-glance information, which is nowhere near as accessible in the
> text, whether that text is in the various emails or in the Rails Report
> Window.
>
> And? I what ways is such a spreadsheet different from what you see in the
> Rails screens?
> BTW as regards contents, the Rails UI is strongly inspired by Lemmi's
> moderator.
>
> 5) In every PBEM I have ever played, there is a "replay" mode (Vassal and
> CyberBoard both have this) where you can watch what happened since your last
> turn.  This gives you visual indications of which tiles have been laid, what
> movements occurred on the stock market, etc.
>
> You have Undo/Redo to play with if you want. A feature to slowly replay
> from the start or some other point would not be unthinkable.
>
> To be honest, the combination of 4 and 5 means that I virtually never read
> the text summaries that are sent in PBEM games.  They are only used (by me)
> for debugging when there are problems.  I can almost always assess the
> situation at a glance by watching the replay and glancing at the
> spreadsheet.
>
> Well, you sure have raised some food for thought.
>
> p.s. it is very well documented that tables and graphics are easier to
> assess "at a glance" than text.  In almost every case in Rails, perhaps with
> the exception of stock round purchases, tables and graphics win out in the
> usability question over text logs by a mile and a half.
> Sure, but the UI is mainly intended to show the current status, whereas the
> Report has the history. That's the way it is for now...
>
> Erik.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
> on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug

[Erik V. <eri...@hc...>]

So, a few suggestions for improvement in the Report Window.

1) It always opens to the top of the file. You have to scroll to the bottom
to begin.
 
Done. Next version will scroll down on reload.
 
2) There is no indication of when your own last action occurred.  You have
to scroll up, reading the text, to find an indication of what is "new."  In
PBEM, you get this information in packets of text as each company operates,
and it isn't mashed together with everything else that happened the entire
game.
 
Of course, but Rails is not specifically tailored for PBEM yet. The Report
window is a complete report (I plan to add Save and Print buttons to it)
that by nature contains everything.
 
3) Judicious use of bold and spacing would make it much easier to read.
Right now, each OR is one long string of text with only line breaks. It's
hard to see at a glance where a set of actions begins and ends.  We could
also use highlighting for particularly important actions - train purchases
in red, private purchases in yellow, etc.
 
What do you call a "set of actions"? A player turn?
 
4) In every PBEM I've ever played, we rely heavily on the spreadsheet to
give us at-a-glance information, which is nowhere near as accessible in the
text, whether that text is in the various emails or in the Rails Report
Window.
 
And? I what ways is such a spreadsheet different from what you see in the
Rails screens?
BTW as regards contents, the Rails UI is strongly inspired by Lemmi's
moderator.
 
5) In every PBEM I have ever played, there is a "replay" mode (Vassal and
CyberBoard both have this) where you can watch what happened since your last
turn.  This gives you visual indications of which tiles have been laid, what
movements occurred on the stock market, etc.
 
You have Undo/Redo to play with if you want. A feature to slowly replay from
the start or some other point would not be unthinkable.
 
To be honest, the combination of 4 and 5 means that I virtually never read
the text summaries that are sent in PBEM games.  They are only used (by me)
for debugging when there are problems.  I can almost always assess the
situation at a glance by watching the replay and glancing at the
spreadsheet.
 
Well, you sure have raised some food for thought.
 
p.s. it is very well documented that tables and graphics are easier to
assess "at a glance" than text.  In almost every case in Rails, perhaps with
the exception of stock round purchases, tables and graphics win out in the
usability question over text logs by a mile and a half.

Sure, but the UI is mainly intended to show the current status, whereas the
Report has the history. That's the way it is for now... 
 
Erik.
 

Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

p.s. it is very well documented that tables and graphics are easier to
assess "at a glance" than text.  In almost every case in Rails, perhaps with
the exception of stock round purchases, tables and graphics win out in the
usability question over text logs by a mile and a half.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.


On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote:

>  ??
> It's a step by step report of all game actions, exactly as I would do it in
> a PBEM version.
> I don't see what's so hard about it. An extra space between company OR
> turns
> and better placement of the private payouts is all I can think of.
>
> First thing I would do to check previous player's moves when it's my turn
> is to look here.
>
> Erik.
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

So, a few suggestions for improvement in the Report Window.

1) It always opens to the top of the file. You have to scroll to the bottom
to begin.

2) There is no indication of when your own last action occurred.  You have
to scroll up, reading the text, to find an indication of what is "new."  In
PBEM, you get this information in packets of text as each company operates,
and it isn't mashed together with everything else that happened the entire
game.

3) Judicious use of bold and spacing would make it much easier to read.
Right now, each OR is one long string of text with only line breaks. It's
hard to see at a glance where a set of actions begins and ends.  We could
also use highlighting for particularly important actions - train purchases
in red, private purchases in yellow, etc.

4) In every PBEM I've ever played, we rely heavily on the spreadsheet to
give us at-a-glance information, which is nowhere near as accessible in the
text, whether that text is in the various emails or in the Rails Report
Window.

5) In every PBEM I have ever played, there is a "replay" mode (Vassal and
CyberBoard both have this) where you can watch what happened since your last
turn.  This gives you visual indications of which tiles have been laid, what
movements occurred on the stock market, etc.

To be honest, the combination of 4 and 5 means that I virtually never read
the text summaries that are sent in PBEM games.  They are only used (by me)
for debugging when there are problems.  I can almost always assess the
situation at a glance by watching the replay and glancing at the
spreadsheet.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.


On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote:

>  ??
> It's a step by step report of all game actions, exactly as I would do it in
> a PBEM version.
> I don't see what's so hard about it. An extra space between company OR
> turns
> and better placement of the private payouts is all I can think of.
>
> First thing I would do to check previous player's moves when it's my turn
> is to look here.
>
> Erik.
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Chris Shaffer [mailto:chr...@gm...]
> *Sent:* Thursday 26 November 2009 22:11
>
> *To:* Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> *Subject:* Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug
>
> That window is very hard to read.  It's long blocks of text, with no
> separators.  It just doesn't even compare in usability to the data tables.
>
> --
> Chris
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote:
>
>>  In the Report Window these things are spelled out in detail: "PRR buys a
>> 2-train from B&O for $200."
>> I wonder if it would help to have this window open rather than closed by
>> default?
>>
>> Erik.
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> *From:* Chris Shaffer [mailto:chr...@gm...]
>> *Sent:* Thursday 26 November 2009 22:01
>>
>> *To:* Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
>> *Subject:* Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug
>>
>>   My biggest issue is that when someone transfers a train from one
>> company to another, I want to know about it.  Right now, that information is
>> buried in the text log.  It's one of the most important actions in many
>> games and it's something you would never fail to notice playing in-person or
>> by the traditional PBEM systems. However, in Rails, it is very easy to
>> totally miss that it happened.
>>
>> So some solution that says "company A bought a train from company B" is
>> needed -- currently, all you get is "company A bought a train - maybe from
>> another company, maybe from the bank..." and you have to go dig in the log
>> to figure out what happened.
>>
>> --
>> Chris
>>
>> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:55 PM, brett lentz <wak...@gm...> wrote:
>>
>>> The only problem with that is, trains are never sold. They're only
>>> bought.
>>>
>>> So, in my mind having a "trains sold" column would only confuse people.
>>>
>>> ---Brett
>>>
>>>  On Nov 26, 2009 12:52 PM, "Chris Shaffer" <chr...@gm...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I like that particular solution to my enhancement request
>>> either.  Ideally, what I'd like to see is one column for train purchases and
>>> another column for train sales.
>>>
>>> p.s. some impassable hexsides are from non-water sources, e.g. the cliff
>>> slope in 18AL.  Blue is still a good color to distinguish from black though.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> > > The problem mentioned (reported by Andrew Pullin) was that company
>>>> treasure > cash was not used ...
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
>>>> 30-Day
>>>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and
>>>> focus on
>>>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
>>>> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Rails-devel mailing list
>>>> Rai...@li...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
>>> 30-Day
>>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and
>>> focus on
>>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
>>> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Rai...@li...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> 30-Day
>>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and
>>> focus on
>>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
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>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Rai...@li...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> 30-Day
>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
>> on
>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
>> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
> on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
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> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug

[Erik V. <eri...@hc...>]

??
It's a step by step report of all game actions, exactly as I would do it in
a PBEM version.
I don't see what's so hard about it. An extra space between company OR turns
and better placement of the private payouts is all I can think of.
 
First thing I would do to check previous player's moves when it's my turn is
to look here.
 
Erik.


  _____  

From: Chris Shaffer [mailto:chr...@gm...] 
Sent: Thursday 26 November 2009 22:11
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug


That window is very hard to read.  It's long blocks of text, with no
separators.  It just doesn't even compare in usability to the data tables.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.



On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote:


In the Report Window these things are spelled out in detail: "PRR buys a
2-train from B&O for $200."
I wonder if it would help to have this window open rather than closed by
default?
 
Erik.



  _____  

From: Chris Shaffer [mailto:chr...@gm...] 
Sent: Thursday 26 November 2009 22:01 

To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game

Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug


My biggest issue is that when someone transfers a train from one company to
another, I want to know about it.  Right now, that information is buried in
the text log.  It's one of the most important actions in many games and it's
something you would never fail to notice playing in-person or by the
traditional PBEM systems. However, in Rails, it is very easy to totally miss
that it happened.

So some solution that says "company A bought a train from company B" is
needed -- currently, all you get is "company A bought a train - maybe from
another company, maybe from the bank..." and you have to go dig in the log
to figure out what happened.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.



On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:55 PM, brett lentz <wak...@gm...> wrote:


The only problem with that is, trains are never sold. They're only bought.

So, in my mind having a "trains sold" column would only confuse people.

---Brett



On Nov 26, 2009 12:52 PM, "Chris Shaffer" <chr...@gm...> wrote:

I'm not sure I like that particular solution to my enhancement request
either.  Ideally, what I'd like to see is one column for train purchases and
another column for train sales.

p.s. some impassable hexsides are from non-water sources, e.g. the cliff
slope in 18AL.  Blue is still a good color to distinguish from black though.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.




On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote: 

> > The problem mentioned (reported by Andrew Pullin) was that company
treasure > cash was not used ...

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Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

That window is very hard to read.  It's long blocks of text, with no
separators.  It just doesn't even compare in usability to the data tables.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.


On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote:

>  In the Report Window these things are spelled out in detail: "PRR buys a
> 2-train from B&O for $200."
> I wonder if it would help to have this window open rather than closed by
> default?
>
> Erik.
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Chris Shaffer [mailto:chr...@gm...]
> *Sent:* Thursday 26 November 2009 22:01
>
> *To:* Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> *Subject:* Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug
>
> My biggest issue is that when someone transfers a train from one company to
> another, I want to know about it.  Right now, that information is buried in
> the text log.  It's one of the most important actions in many games and it's
> something you would never fail to notice playing in-person or by the
> traditional PBEM systems. However, in Rails, it is very easy to totally miss
> that it happened.
>
> So some solution that says "company A bought a train from company B" is
> needed -- currently, all you get is "company A bought a train - maybe from
> another company, maybe from the bank..." and you have to go dig in the log
> to figure out what happened.
>
> --
> Chris
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:55 PM, brett lentz <wak...@gm...> wrote:
>
>> The only problem with that is, trains are never sold. They're only bought.
>>
>> So, in my mind having a "trains sold" column would only confuse people.
>>
>> ---Brett
>>
>>  On Nov 26, 2009 12:52 PM, "Chris Shaffer" <chr...@gm...>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure I like that particular solution to my enhancement request
>> either.  Ideally, what I'd like to see is one column for train purchases and
>> another column for train sales.
>>
>> p.s. some impassable hexsides are from non-water sources, e.g. the cliff
>> slope in 18AL.  Blue is still a good color to distinguish from black though.
>>
>> --
>> Chris
>>
>> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>>
>>
>>  On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote:
>>
>>> > > The problem mentioned (reported by Andrew Pullin) was that company
>>> treasure > cash was not used ...
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
>>> 30-Day
>>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and
>>> focus on
>>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
>>> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Rails-devel mailing list
>>> Rai...@li...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
>> 30-Day
>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
>> on
>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
>> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rails-devel mailing list
>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
>> 30-Day
>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
>> on
>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
>> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rails-devel mailing list
>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
> on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
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>
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug

[Erik V. <eri...@hc...>]

In the Report Window these things are spelled out in detail: "PRR buys a
2-train from B&O for $200."
I wonder if it would help to have this window open rather than closed by
default?
 
Erik.



  _____  

From: Chris Shaffer [mailto:chr...@gm...] 
Sent: Thursday 26 November 2009 22:01
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug


My biggest issue is that when someone transfers a train from one company to
another, I want to know about it.  Right now, that information is buried in
the text log.  It's one of the most important actions in many games and it's
something you would never fail to notice playing in-person or by the
traditional PBEM systems. However, in Rails, it is very easy to totally miss
that it happened.

So some solution that says "company A bought a train from company B" is
needed -- currently, all you get is "company A bought a train - maybe from
another company, maybe from the bank..." and you have to go dig in the log
to figure out what happened.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.



On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:55 PM, brett lentz <wak...@gm...> wrote:


The only problem with that is, trains are never sold. They're only bought.

So, in my mind having a "trains sold" column would only confuse people.

---Brett



On Nov 26, 2009 12:52 PM, "Chris Shaffer" <chr...@gm...> wrote:

I'm not sure I like that particular solution to my enhancement request
either.  Ideally, what I'd like to see is one column for train purchases and
another column for train sales.

p.s. some impassable hexsides are from non-water sources, e.g. the cliff
slope in 18AL.  Blue is still a good color to distinguish from black though.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.




On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote: 

> > The problem mentioned (reported by Andrew Pullin) was that company
treasure > cash was not used ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug

[Erik V. <eri...@hc...>]

And I don't want to add columns that are not really needed. 
In fact all these "cost" columns are on the bottom of my list of things
necessary.
 
Erik.


  _____  

From: brett lentz [mailto:wak...@gm...] 
Sent: Thursday 26 November 2009 21:56
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug



The only problem with that is, trains are never sold. They're only bought.

So, in my mind having a "trains sold" column would only confuse people.

---Brett




On Nov 26, 2009 12:52 PM, "Chris Shaffer" <chr...@gm...> wrote:

I'm not sure I like that particular solution to my enhancement request
either.  Ideally, what I'd like to see is one column for train purchases and
another column for train sales.

p.s. some impassable hexsides are from non-water sources, e.g. the cliff
slope in 18AL.  Blue is still a good color to distinguish from black though.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.




On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote: 

> > The problem mentioned (reported by Andrew Pullin) was that company
treasure > cash was not used ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
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what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

My biggest issue is that when someone transfers a train from one company to
another, I want to know about it.  Right now, that information is buried in
the text log.  It's one of the most important actions in many games and it's
something you would never fail to notice playing in-person or by the
traditional PBEM systems. However, in Rails, it is very easy to totally miss
that it happened.

So some solution that says "company A bought a train from company B" is
needed -- currently, all you get is "company A bought a train - maybe from
another company, maybe from the bank..." and you have to go dig in the log
to figure out what happened.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.


On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:55 PM, brett lentz <wak...@gm...> wrote:

> The only problem with that is, trains are never sold. They're only bought.
>
> So, in my mind having a "trains sold" column would only confuse people.
>
> ---Brett
>
> On Nov 26, 2009 12:52 PM, "Chris Shaffer" <chr...@gm...> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure I like that particular solution to my enhancement request
> either.  Ideally, what I'd like to see is one column for train purchases and
> another column for train sales.
>
> p.s. some impassable hexsides are from non-water sources, e.g. the cliff
> slope in 18AL.  Blue is still a good color to distinguish from black though.
>
> --
> Chris
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote:
>
>> > > The problem mentioned (reported by Andrew Pullin) was that company
>> treasure > cash was not used ...
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
>> 30-Day
>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
>> on
>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
>> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rails-devel mailing list
>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
> on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
> on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug

[brett l. <wak...@gm...>]

The only problem with that is, trains are never sold. They're only bought.

So, in my mind having a "trains sold" column would only confuse people.

---Brett

On Nov 26, 2009 12:52 PM, "Chris Shaffer" <chr...@gm...> wrote:

I'm not sure I like that particular solution to my enhancement request
either.  Ideally, what I'd like to see is one column for train purchases and
another column for train sales.

p.s. some impassable hexsides are from non-water sources, e.g. the cliff
slope in 18AL.  Blue is still a good color to distinguish from black though.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.


On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote:

> > > The problem mentioned (reported by Andrew Pullin) was that company
> treasure > cash was not used ...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
> on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>

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Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

I'm not sure I like that particular solution to my enhancement request
either.  Ideally, what I'd like to see is one column for train purchases and
another column for train sales.

p.s. some impassable hexsides are from non-water sources, e.g. the cliff
slope in 18AL.  Blue is still a good color to distinguish from black though.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.


On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote:

>  The problem mentioned (reported by Andrew Pullin) was that company
> treasure
> cash was not used in emergency train buying.
> This must have been another side effect of recent changes in that area.
>
> I have also changed the following:
>
> - Implemented a Feature Request from Chris Shaffer: when a train is bought
> from another company, to subtract the amount from the seller's "Cost"
> field
> in the OR panel as well as adding it to the buyer's Cost field.
> I don't know if this change will appeal to everybody; I'm not even sure if
> I like it myself.
> But it was a simple one, and can easily be reverted or made optional.
>
> - I have changed the colour of the impassable hex sides from black to blue.
> First, it gives a better contrast with the also black tracks, and second,
> the
> impassability comes from water anyway.
>
> - Fixed a problem that emergency train buying where share selling was
> involved
> could not be undone. The two actions (train buying and share selling) are
> separately
> stored and were not linked; they now are.
>
> I'd say we are ready for rc4.
>
> Erik.
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Eri...@gx... [mailto:Eri...@gx...]
> *Sent:* Thursday 26 November 2009 10:39
> *To:* rai...@li...
> *Subject:* [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug
>
>  Brett,
>
>
>
> Please wait with creating a new RC as a new bug has surfaced. I’ll upload
> the fix when back at home.
>
> I will also spend time to more rigorous testing of the train buying area.
>
>
>
> Erik.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
> on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug

[Erik V. <eri...@hc...>]

The problem mentioned (reported by Andrew Pullin) was that company treasure 
cash was not used in emergency train buying. 
This must have been another side effect of recent changes in that area.
 
I have also changed the following:
 
- Implemented a Feature Request from Chris Shaffer: when a train is bought 
from another company, to subtract the amount from the seller's "Cost" field 
in the OR panel as well as adding it to the buyer's Cost field.
I don't know if this change will appeal to everybody; I'm not even sure if I
like it myself.
But it was a simple one, and can easily be reverted or made optional.
 
- I have changed the colour of the impassable hex sides from black to blue.
First, it gives a better contrast with the also black tracks, and second,
the
impassability comes from water anyway.
 
- Fixed a problem that emergency train buying where share selling was
involved
could not be undone. The two actions (train buying and share selling) are
separately
stored and were not linked; they now are.
 
I'd say we are ready for rc4.
 
Erik.


  _____  

From: Eri...@gx... [mailto:Eri...@gx...] 
Sent: Thursday 26 November 2009 10:39
To: rai...@li...
Subject: [Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug



Brett,

 

Please wait with creating a new RC as a new bug has surfaced. I'll upload
the fix when back at home.

I will also spend time to more rigorous testing of the train buying area.

 

Erik.

[Rails-devel] Another train-buying related bug

[<Eri...@gx...>]

Brett,

Please wait with creating a new RC as a new bug has surfaced. I'll upload the fix when back at home.
I will also spend time to more rigorous testing of the train buying area.

Erik.

Re: [Rails-devel] 18EU bug

[Erik V. <eri...@hc...>]

I'm sorry to report that RC3 is worthless, at least for loading saved files.

The story is a bit long.
The change to allow trainless companies to skip buying a train 
made it necessary to add an attribute to the BuyTrain action (to trigger 
adding an appropriate help text). This necessitated writing custom 
deserialization code for this class (to preserve saved file compatibility).
Here I erred by overlooking a few attributes, including the paid price.
That in turn caused all train cost to become $0, hence the huge treasuries 
that were reported in some bug reports.

Brett, I'm afraid that we need yet another RC...


I have taken the opportunity to strengthen move checking in the 
following ways:

- If a paid train price is unequal to a fixed price (if bought from
the Bank), this is considered an error from now on. 
This check would have catched the above error in stead of letting is pass.

- So far, load errors like this one (and I have seen several other cases 
in the recent past) were not catched, causing strange results to 
be displayed (such as these huge treasuries). From now on, if the
game engine detects an invalid move being loaded from a saved file,
loading stops, some sensible messages are displayed in a popup,
and play can be continued normally *from that point on*.

As you might remember, we recently had such a case, where 
it turned out that the previous version had incorrectly swapped 
the operating order of companies.

Please note that 'invalid move' may be version-dependent.

Unfortunately, this change has already proven several of my nice
1856 test save files being incorrect :-(

Erik.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Shaffer [mailto:chr...@gm...] 
> Sent: Tuesday 24 November 2009 13:48
> To: rai...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] 18EU bug
> 
> One of the players in our game did some testing and reports:
> 
> ***
> I did a little playing around.  I went back to 5's turn in OR1b and
> re-entered all the moves from there through 3's turn in OR2a.  (I
> remembered to run 8 for the extra $10.)  Just before 5's turn in OR2a,
> the windows correctly reported $56 for 5 and $59 for 8.  I saved the
> game.  I loaded the save.  The windows incorrectly reported $55 for 5
> and $60 for 8.
> 
> So it seems like the problem is with the saving and loading, somehow.
> ***
> 

Re: [Rails-devel] Save file names

[Jim B. <jim...@ya...>]

Ideally, I think- Rails wouldn't 'foresee' anything- it would just  
give the user an explicit action/button/etc that means "this whole  
turn is now complete".

This would only be /after/ everything else was "Done", presumably (or,  
by implication).

Until that was pressed- the turn is not finished, current-player does  
not advance, simple "undo" will reverse within this session, etc.   
Then, as you hint below, there might be a specific "End Turn" button/ 
action that would explicitly finish that turn, completely (and,  
possibly save the game file, update the current player to the next  
player/railroad, etc).

I guess whatever 'Done' is doing now, it would presumably need to keep  
doing- because, as you said, it's not the same as "End Turn".

In summary- from a pbem perspective, the "done with this action" and  
"end this whole turn" actions seem quite distinct (even orthogonal) -  
different  fundamental meaning, different user intent, etc.

This is just how I think about it, as we discuss it- I dunno what  
rails is doing under-the-hood, what would be easiest, etc.

cheers,
  - jim


On Nov 24, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Erik Vos wrote:

> I believe the idea was to *replace* Done by End Turn in specific  
> cases.
>
> Some thoughts:
>
> 1. This requires the game engine to "foresee" that a Done action will
> end the turn *before* updating the UI, rather than that it "discovers"
> the turn being finished *after* Done is pressed, as is currently the  
> case.
>
> In many cases this will be easy, but it gets tricky in games where  
> the last
> OR step is not always executed. Examples are 1851 and 18EU, where
> companies may execute their last OR step (trading shares) only from
> their second OR. And 18EU minors always skip that step.
>
> So it could mean creating separate end-of-turn checks in multiple  
> places.
>
> 2. It can only be done if there is a Done button to start with.
> That is not the case in start rounds, where 'End Turn' is implicit
> in all player actions. Not having a separate End Turn there means
> introducing some inconsistency in applying this idea.
>
>
> None of these thoughts mean that it is not feasible, but only that
> we cannot assume that it is easy to do in a consistent way.
>
> Erik.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jim Black [mailto:jim...@ya...]
>> Sent: Tuesday 24 November 2009 01:46
>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Save file names
>>
>>>> Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace
>>>> "Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn".
>>>> Thoughts?
>>
>>
>> I agree, this model really goes in the right direction.
>>
>> On the one hand, there's a simple action/button to simply
>> 'continue /
>> done / etc', used in a variety of ways - done buying trains,
>> continue
>> after taking a loan or something, or etc.
>>
>> The other button/action is, literally, 'End Turn':  it's much more
>> decisive, it marks the spot to archive a completed move,
>> progress turn-
>> order, etc....
>>
>>  - jim
>>
>>
>> On Nov 23, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Chris Shaffer wrote:
>>
>>>> Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace
>>>> "Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn".
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> I like this model and it certainly has a lot to recommend it.  One
>>> extension could be having "End Turn" trigger an autosave and perhaps
>>> as a later enhancement an email (for pbem) or token updated
>> (for live
>>> online play).
>>>
>>> --
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>>>
>>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------------
>>> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal
>> Reports 2008
>>> 30-Day
>>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and
>> deployment - and
>>> focus on
>>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
>>> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Rails-devel mailing list
>>> Rai...@li...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------------
>> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal
>> Reports 2008 30-Day
>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and
>> deployment - and focus on
>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
>> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rails-devel mailing list
>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008  
> 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and  
> focus on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
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> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Save file names

[Erik V. <eri...@hc...>]

I believe the idea was to *replace* Done by End Turn in specific cases.

Some thoughts:

1. This requires the game engine to "foresee" that a Done action will
end the turn *before* updating the UI, rather than that it "discovers" 
the turn being finished *after* Done is pressed, as is currently the case. 

In many cases this will be easy, but it gets tricky in games where the last
OR step is not always executed. Examples are 1851 and 18EU, where
companies may execute their last OR step (trading shares) only from
their second OR. And 18EU minors always skip that step.

So it could mean creating separate end-of-turn checks in multiple places.

2. It can only be done if there is a Done button to start with.
That is not the case in start rounds, where 'End Turn' is implicit 
in all player actions. Not having a separate End Turn there means
introducing some inconsistency in applying this idea. 


None of these thoughts mean that it is not feasible, but only that
we cannot assume that it is easy to do in a consistent way.

Erik.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Black [mailto:jim...@ya...] 
> Sent: Tuesday 24 November 2009 01:46
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Save file names
> 
> >> Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace
> >> "Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn".
> >> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> I agree, this model really goes in the right direction.
> 
> On the one hand, there's a simple action/button to simply 
> 'continue /  
> done / etc', used in a variety of ways - done buying trains, 
> continue  
> after taking a loan or something, or etc.
> 
> The other button/action is, literally, 'End Turn':  it's much more  
> decisive, it marks the spot to archive a completed move, 
> progress turn- 
> order, etc....
> 
>   - jim
> 
> 
> On Nov 23, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Chris Shaffer wrote:
> 
> >> Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace
> >> "Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn".
> >> Thoughts?
> >
> > I like this model and it certainly has a lot to recommend it.  One
> > extension could be having "End Turn" trigger an autosave and perhaps
> > as a later enhancement an email (for pbem) or token updated 
> (for live
> > online play).
> >
> > --
> > Chris
> >
> > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
> >
> > 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------
> > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal 
> Reports 2008  
> > 30-Day
> > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and 
> deployment - and  
> > focus on
> > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> > Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails-devel mailing list
> > Rai...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal 
> Reports 2008 30-Day 
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and 
> deployment - and focus on 
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] 18EU bug

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

One of the players in our game did some testing and reports:

***
I did a little playing around.  I went back to 5's turn in OR1b and
re-entered all the moves from there through 3's turn in OR2a.  (I
remembered to run 8 for the extra $10.)  Just before 5's turn in OR2a,
the windows correctly reported $56 for 5 and $59 for 8.  I saved the
game.  I loaded the save.  The windows incorrectly reported $55 for 5
and $60 for 8.

So it seems like the problem is with the saving and loading, somehow.
***

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.



On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:29 PM, Chris Shaffer <chr...@gm...> wrote:
> In OR2, minor 8 bought a train from minor 5 for 1 euro.  Now, the game
> log shows the purchase was for zero and the money wasn't transferred.
> Any suggestions about how to correct the problem and shift the euro to
> the correct company?
>
> --
> Chris
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>

[Rails-devel] 18EU bug

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

In OR2, minor 8 bought a train from minor 5 for 1 euro.  Now, the game
log shows the purchase was for zero and the money wasn't transferred.
Any suggestions about how to correct the problem and shift the euro to
the correct company?

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

Re: [Rails-devel] Save file names

[Jim B. <jim...@ya...>]

>> Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace
>> "Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn".
>> Thoughts?


I agree, this model really goes in the right direction.

On the one hand, there's a simple action/button to simply 'continue /  
done / etc', used in a variety of ways - done buying trains, continue  
after taking a loan or something, or etc.

The other button/action is, literally, 'End Turn':  it's much more  
decisive, it marks the spot to archive a completed move, progress turn- 
order, etc....

  - jim


On Nov 23, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Chris Shaffer wrote:

>> Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace
>> "Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn".
>> Thoughts?
>
> I like this model and it certainly has a lot to recommend it.  One
> extension could be having "End Turn" trigger an autosave and perhaps
> as a later enhancement an email (for pbem) or token updated (for live
> online play).
>
> --
> Chris
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008  
> 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and  
> focus on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Save file names

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

> Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace
> "Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn".
> Thoughts?

I like this model and it certainly has a lot to recommend it.  One
extension could be having "End Turn" trigger an autosave and perhaps
as a later enhancement an email (for pbem) or token updated (for live
online play).

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

Re: [Rails-devel] Save file names

[brett l. <wak...@gm...>]

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote:
>> While you're pondering this in the background, here's some food for
>> thought- just thinking 'outside the box'-
>>
>> What a pbem player would want, I think, is a single "Commit" button-
>> instead of separate "Done" and "Save" functions.
>>
>> When selecting "commit",  the move would be saved- tagged with both
>> current /and/ next player, and then the current-player would be
>> advanced (within the session)  This would combine the 'done' and
>> 'save' and 'who's next?' functions into one atomic action/button.
>
> Please note, that Done is not always the end of a player's turn.
> It can mean just the end of a certain type of action, like buying trains.
> In many games (1851, 1856, 18EU to name a few) that does not end the turn.
>
> I wonder what users think about the clarity on the indication whose
> turn it is. I have the feeling that just highlighting the player or
> company name isn't clear enough, but I don't have a good idea in what way
> that could be improved. Popups are impopular, so that is a no-no.
>
> Erik.
>
>


I think what the solution may need to be is to have an "end turn"
button that shows up in the UI after the user's taken their final
action, but before the game advances the state to the next player's
turn.

Optionally, we could reserve having the 'end turn' button for games
that are flagged as being PBEM games.

Caveat - I haven't really looked at the code, so I can't be certain
how much complexity this would add. I'm mostly just thinking about how
we could provide a player aid to signal the difference between "Done =
finished with this phase of my turn" and "Done = End my Turn."

Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace
"Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn".
Thoughts?

---Brett.

Re: [Rails-devel] Save file names

[Erik V. <eri...@hc...>]

> While you're pondering this in the background, here's some food for  
> thought- just thinking 'outside the box'-
> 
> What a pbem player would want, I think, is a single "Commit" button-  
> instead of separate "Done" and "Save" functions.
> 
> When selecting "commit",  the move would be saved- tagged with both  
> current /and/ next player, and then the current-player would be  
> advanced (within the session)  This would combine the 'done' and  
> 'save' and 'who's next?' functions into one atomic action/button.

Please note, that Done is not always the end of a player's turn. 
It can mean just the end of a certain type of action, like buying trains. 
In many games (1851, 1856, 18EU to name a few) that does not end the turn.

I wonder what users think about the clarity on the indication whose
turn it is. I have the feeling that just highlighting the player or
company name isn't clear enough, but I don't have a good idea in what way 
that could be improved. Popups are impopular, so that is a no-no.

Erik.