openeeg-list — Public forum for everyone

[Openeeg-list] Alex: Disorder or IRC server.

[Graham S. <ggn...@gm...>]

Thanks for the offer, Alex.

I vote, : "Yes".

Graham


On Thu, 10 Aug 2023, 2:58 pm , <ope...@li...>
wrote:

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>    1. Re: Besselworth calculations (Alexander Houston)
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2023 22:57:53 -0400
> From: Alexander Houston <aho...@gm...>
> To: "Discussion of EEG hardware, software, training protocols, NFB
>         theory - for developers and users."
>         <ope...@li...>
> Subject: Re: [Openeeg-list] Besselworth calculations
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAE...@ma...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> All,
>
> Would anybody be opposed to creating a discord or IRC server for this
> project? The state of things right now is not friendly for newcomers to the
> project, as most everything is scattered around old wikis, codebases, and
> posts on this mailing list. Many links to the original sourceforge projects
> are only accessible via archival sites like Wayback.
>
> As a newcomer myself, I don't feel it's my place to admin over a server
> like this. However, I'm happy to create one if interest is high but
> familiarity with discord is low.
>
> OpenEEG is a banger hobby concept and it deserves to be accessible in a
> post web 1.0 world ?
>
> Steve: sadly I cannot even begin to comprehend your question, sorry!
>
> Best,
> Alex.
>
> On Wed, Aug 9, 2023 at 10:42?PM Stephen McInturff <
> ste...@gm...> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I'm not sure if this project is still ongoing but I'm going to post and
> > wish for the best.
> >
> > I am attempting to build an Auditory Brainstem Response (ABR) amplifier.
> > The circuit is very much the same as the designs for the "modularEEG"
> > except that the filters are different (I want 300-3kHz while the current
> > designs are mostly <100 Hz). This would mainly involve modifying the
> > "besselworth filter", see screenshot below.
> >
> > My question is how was the cutoff frequency of 59Hz calculated? The
> > equations I've found for this are Fc = 1/(2*pi*sqrt(R232*R288*C234*C231))
> > which equals 152.5 Hz and the gain calculation Gain = (1+R230/R229) =
> 13.19x
> >
> > Could someone help explain how these numbers were calculated in the
> > schematic? I understand that the 3rd pole of this filter is on the
> digital
> > board but how would that play into the calculations?
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Steve Mci
> >
> > [image: image.png]
> > _______________________________________________
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Re: [Openeeg-list] Besselworth calculations

[Jesus \Claude\ Z. <ope...@en...>]

a google search for "3rd order besselworth filter op amp" or something  
similar should return some decent results.


are you familiar with pspice? it may be a good tool to obtain  
theoretical values for the filter you desire.




Stephen McInturff <ste...@gm...> a écrit :

> Hello,
>
> I'm not sure if this project is still ongoing but I'm going to post and
> wish for the best.
>
> I am attempting to build an Auditory Brainstem Response (ABR) amplifier.
> The circuit is very much the same as the designs for the "modularEEG"
> except that the filters are different (I want 300-3kHz while the current
> designs are mostly <100 Hz). This would mainly involve modifying the
> "besselworth filter", see screenshot below.
>
> My question is how was the cutoff frequency of 59Hz calculated? The
> equations I've found for this are Fc = 1/(2*pi*sqrt(R232*R288*C234*C231))
> which equals 152.5 Hz and the gain calculation Gain = (1+R230/R229) = 13.19x
>
> Could someone help explain how these numbers were calculated in the
> schematic? I understand that the 3rd pole of this filter is on the digital
> board but how would that play into the calculations?
>
> Thank you,
> Steve Mci
>
> [image: image.png]

[Openeeg-list] discord/IRC for OpenEEG project

[Jesus \Claude\ Z. <ope...@en...>]

+1


Considering the topic (and the "need" to post schematics and similar  
things) my opinion is that discord would be better suited.


but IRC is more open, and the discord client is quite heavy... I'd  
still vote for discord


> Would anybody be opposed to creating a discord or IRC server for this
> project? The state of things right now is not friendly for newcomers to the
> project, as most everything is scattered around old wikis, codebases, and
> posts on this mailing list. Many links to the original sourceforge projects
> are only accessible via archival sites like Wayback.
>
> As a newcomer myself, I don't feel it's my place to admin over a server
> like this. However, I'm happy to create one if interest is high but
> familiarity with discord is low.
>
> OpenEEG is a banger hobby concept and it deserves to be accessible in a
> post web 1.0 world 🙂

Re: [Openeeg-list] Besselworth calculations

[Alexander H. <aho...@gm...>]

All,

Would anybody be opposed to creating a discord or IRC server for this
project? The state of things right now is not friendly for newcomers to the
project, as most everything is scattered around old wikis, codebases, and
posts on this mailing list. Many links to the original sourceforge projects
are only accessible via archival sites like Wayback.

As a newcomer myself, I don't feel it's my place to admin over a server
like this. However, I'm happy to create one if interest is high but
familiarity with discord is low.

OpenEEG is a banger hobby concept and it deserves to be accessible in a
post web 1.0 world 🙂

Steve: sadly I cannot even begin to comprehend your question, sorry!

Best,
Alex.

On Wed, Aug 9, 2023 at 10:42 PM Stephen McInturff <
ste...@gm...> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm not sure if this project is still ongoing but I'm going to post and
> wish for the best.
>
> I am attempting to build an Auditory Brainstem Response (ABR) amplifier.
> The circuit is very much the same as the designs for the "modularEEG"
> except that the filters are different (I want 300-3kHz while the current
> designs are mostly <100 Hz). This would mainly involve modifying the
> "besselworth filter", see screenshot below.
>
> My question is how was the cutoff frequency of 59Hz calculated? The
> equations I've found for this are Fc = 1/(2*pi*sqrt(R232*R288*C234*C231))
> which equals 152.5 Hz and the gain calculation Gain = (1+R230/R229) = 13.19x
>
> Could someone help explain how these numbers were calculated in the
> schematic? I understand that the 3rd pole of this filter is on the digital
> board but how would that play into the calculations?
>
> Thank you,
> Steve Mci
>
> [image: image.png]
> _______________________________________________
> Openeeg-list mailing list
> Ope...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
> Go to the above address to change your
> subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
>

[Openeeg-list] Besselworth calculations

[Stephen M. <ste...@gm...>]

Hello,

I'm not sure if this project is still ongoing but I'm going to post and
wish for the best.

I am attempting to build an Auditory Brainstem Response (ABR) amplifier.
The circuit is very much the same as the designs for the "modularEEG"
except that the filters are different (I want 300-3kHz while the current
designs are mostly <100 Hz). This would mainly involve modifying the
"besselworth filter", see screenshot below.

My question is how was the cutoff frequency of 59Hz calculated? The
equations I've found for this are Fc = 1/(2*pi*sqrt(R232*R288*C234*C231))
which equals 152.5 Hz and the gain calculation Gain = (1+R230/R229) = 13.19x

Could someone help explain how these numbers were calculated in the
schematic? I understand that the 3rd pole of this filter is on the digital
board but how would that play into the calculations?

Thank you,
Steve Mci

[image: image.png]

Re: [Openeeg-list] Welcome to the "Openeeg-list" mailing list

[Baffo 32 <ba...@gm...>]

Hi OpenEEG,

I've been doing home EEG for some years now. I have a psychosis I try
to log, it makes for hilarious situations of which I have had many.

I've mostly worked with OpenBCI and Muse devices. I've noticed with
these, there isn't always demonstration of the kind of strengths often
seen in free software, things like cheapness, interoperability,
stability, hackabilty, overall public software architecture, and a
community where changes are discussed and improved upon ... I'm much
more familiar with community projects than commercial ones.

Where is the OpenEEG community at? What projects have staying power
and/or active development effort? Is anything funded? Is anything
integrating support for many different parts?

What hardware is most used nowadays? Anything open source and modular?

Via OpenBCI I did find BrainFlow. It has only one developer, but is
trying to integrate many platforms. It also had a homebrew machine
learning submodule. I've also stumbled on OpenVIBE, but had trouble
staying with it and remembering it exists, maybe because it looks so
incredibly useful; I tend to get stuck on hardware issues anyway. Not
sure where that project is.

Ideally, I'd like to some day have a system where people can record
long term EEGs with >64 channels, maybe by modularly combining other
equipment. I value not being wireless; I get lost data over wireless
connections. I value resisting the elements: I've had devices break
from getting wet or damaged. I've also broken devices trying to
waterproof them with hot glue; maybe it changes the circuit
properties.

I'm not sure what infrastructure to build, contribute to, or acquire
to get there most effectively. What has the most promise? What is the
most idiot-proof?

When I work my way through my issues, I often make large contributions
to software projects. For example, I ported libusb to rootless android
so that brainflow could access more devices on mobile, and contributed
this back to libusb as a pull request with pages of comments. I also
attempted to integrate features and bugfixes,  and accompanying
testsuite expansions, to openbci's largest library some years prior.

It can be very hard for me to work on these things, so my engagement
is sporadic, but I do have a lot to contribute. But I'm not sure where
to do this.

Karl

Re: [Openeeg-list] Number of Electrodes

[Damián F. <nog...@gm...>]

The modularEEG with firmware version 2 (
http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/modeeg/firmware/modeeg-p2.c ) supports
only 6 channels, for more channels you need to use firmware version 3 (
http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/modeeg/firmware/modeeg-p3.c ) and modify
the firmware appropriately. But you need to also consider the limitations
of # of ADC supported channels of the atmega controller and probably the
bandwidth required. I am using AtMega16L on my customized EEG-SMT design
and this chip supports up to 8 channels, but right now I am using only the
firmware version 2 for best compatibility.
For more info about my customized design, please visit:
https://github.com/splithor1zon/EEG-ReMake

S pozdravom,
Damián Filo


st 22. 9. 2021 o 17:02 Nathan Moreton <nat...@gm...> napísal(a):

> Hey everyone,
>
> Does anyone know the max number of electrodes this EEG supports? I am
> trying to build one to study brain waves and want to know how many channels
> this can detect.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Nathan Moreton
> _______________________________________________
> Openeeg-list mailing list
> Ope...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
> Go to the above address to change your
> subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
>

Re: [Openeeg-list] Number of Electrodes

[Steve S. <acu...@gm...>]

16, 24, or 32 seem to be popular choices.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/183927314759?hash=item2ad2ec1947:g:HC4AAOSwMW5dX0tX
The software to interpret the signal information will be helpful as well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/294335120070?hash=item4487bd82c6:g:aNgAAOSwJHBgePGk

All the best,
Steve

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 4:20 AM Geirmundur Orri Sigurðsson <or...@gm...>
wrote:

> I am making an OpenEEG myself. I ordered two digital and two analog
> circuit boards.
>
> Each analog circuit supports two electrodes. You can connect up to three
> analog boards into a single digital board (AVR AT90S4433 and ATmega8A
> supports 6 ADC channels).
>
> If you need more you could consider making your own digital circuit using
> a better ADC IC and/or modern microcontroller.
>
> You can also connect your analog boards to Arduino or a Raspberry pi with
> ADC IC.
>
> On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 19:02, Nathan Moreton <nat...@gm...> wrote:
>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> Does anyone know the max number of electrodes this EEG supports? I am
>> trying to build one to study brain waves and want to know how many channels
>> this can detect.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Nathan Moreton
>> _______________________________________________
>> Openeeg-list mailing list
>> Ope...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
>> Go to the above address to change your
>> subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Openeeg-list mailing list
> Ope...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
> Go to the above address to change your
> subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
>

Re: [Openeeg-list] Number of Electrodes

[Geirmundur O. S. <or...@gm...>]

I am making an OpenEEG myself. I ordered two digital and two analog circuit
boards.

Each analog circuit supports two electrodes. You can connect up to three
analog boards into a single digital board (AVR AT90S4433 and ATmega8A
supports 6 ADC channels).

If you need more you could consider making your own digital circuit using a
better ADC IC and/or modern microcontroller.

You can also connect your analog boards to Arduino or a Raspberry pi with
ADC IC.

On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 19:02, Nathan Moreton <nat...@gm...> wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
> Does anyone know the max number of electrodes this EEG supports? I am
> trying to build one to study brain waves and want to know how many channels
> this can detect.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Nathan Moreton
> _______________________________________________
> Openeeg-list mailing list
> Ope...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
> Go to the above address to change your
> subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
>

[Openeeg-list] Number of Electrodes

[Nathan M. <nat...@gm...>]

Hey everyone,

Does anyone know the max number of electrodes this EEG supports? I am
trying to build one to study brain waves and want to know how many channels
this can detect.

Thank you,

Nathan Moreton

[Openeeg-list] Does anyone have protocols for BrainBay for (C)PTSD Sebern Fisher/Van der Ko

[<vit...@tu...>]

I start reading the book of Sebern Fisher - Neurofeedback in the Treatment of Developmental Trauma_ Calming the Fear-Driven Brain and plan to buy some cheap neurofeedback system for home training. For practice I need protocol from that book (also saw that protocol as Van der Kolk PTSD/Trauma Release protocol) for BrainBay or Neuromore. Does anyone have it or may be can create it? It available in commercial software, but this too expensive for me.

Protocol:
Channels: 1
Reward: 10-13 Hz
Inhibit: 1-6 Hz and 22-36 Hz

«feedback on the reward frequencies 75% of the time, on the inhibited slow wave frequencies 25% of the time, and on fast wave inhibits about 15%»

[Openeeg-list] Confidential email from vitoballard

[<vit...@tu...>]

<html><head></head><body><p style="font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">Hello,</p><p style="font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">You have just received a confidential email via Tutanota (<a href='https://tutanota.com'>https://tutanota.com</a>). Tutanota encrypts emails automatically end-to-end, including all attachments. You can reach your encrypted mailbox and also reply with an encrypted email with the following link:</p><p style="font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif"><a href='https://mail.tutanota.com/#mail/MeTvrYu----2hCNXBmRehVCwtrYEe9iz0A'>Show encrypted email</a></p><p style="font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">Or paste this link into your browser:<br>https://mail.tutanota.com/#mail/MeTvrYu----2hCNXBmRehVCwtrYEe9iz0A<br></p><p style="font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">This email was automatically generated for sending the link. The link stays valid until you receive a new confidential email from me.</p><p style="font-family:'Calibri',sans-serif">Kind regards,<br>vitoballard</p></body></html>

[Openeeg-list] (no subject)

[Max H. <max...@gm...>]

Hey guys. We ordered a digital + an analog board. We find out now that we
have to calibrate the analog board. We can't find some information about
how to calibrate the board.


Would be nice if someone had informations about it,

Max Hager

[Openeeg-list] Broken link

[Arthur M. <ar...@mi...>]

Hi,


FYI, on http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/faq.html the links to 
http://www.epemag.com/solderfaq/default.htm is broken as they are moving 
their website.


Regards,

Arthur

[Openeeg-list] Read EEG-Data from The ModularEEG device

[Tina G. <tin...@ho...>]

Dear all,

I’m trying to read the EEG-Data from the ModularEEG device (http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/modeeg/modeeg.html) with the help of matlab. Does anyone has a idea how to do that? I really failed in finding some information about this online and would be very happy about every respond.
Thanks in Advance!

Best,
Tina

Gesendet von Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> für Windows 10

Re: [Openeeg-list] Trying to do some research on the effects of biofeedback

[Jeremy V. <je...@jv...>]

That makes sense to me. It seems that excessive high frequencies in the right pfc correlate to sympathetic amygdala activity. And increasing low frequencies seems to be a very effective way of energy redistribution in a way that increases hpa regulation. Just inhibiting hf doesn’t necessarily direct the energy to the circuit of inhibition.
It seems to me like high frequencies are the tip of the ice berg, whereas low frequencies steer the ship.



On Apr 3, 2021, at 11:59 AM, Peter Little <pet...@gm...> wrote:


As a neurofeedback provider and someone who has spent a few years pretty interested in the expanse of the field, I would say that Jens' broad description of the branches of the field is accurate, that they all seem to have some efficacy, but in my own experience and those of many others in the field, moving into lower frequencies (in the slow cortical potential or infralow frequency realm) and away from training to a statistical average seems to be generally much more efficacious and powerful (though does require a trained provider guiding the process since it can move so quickly). This is in no way to denigrate the other approaches, which I do believe may have their own specific advantages.
For those interested in the symptom based, low frequency approach, Id strongly recommend looking into the Othmers and their work.
eeginfo.com<http://eeginfo.com>
is a good place to start

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 1:59 AM Jens Körner <jn...@gm...<mailto:jn...@gm...>> wrote:
Hi Laura,

my experience with neurofeedback is mainly as a patient of severe
early childhood brain trauma.

In my opinion the main source of confusion in the field originates in
a lack of differentiation:

Broadly speaking, there are two very different kinds of
neurofeedbacktrainig: 1. The generalized way: trainig each
participant's brain to match a statistical average. That's done by
most providers. It's a little bit scalable and sometimes has some
useful effect.
2. The individualized approach (Sebern Fisher, Jim Hardt): totally
unscalable; therefore expensive; with allegedly spectacular results.

Perhaps this is of some use to you.
Regards
Jens



2021-04-03 10:03 GMT+02:00, Stefan Jung <bio...@gm...<mailto:bio...@gm...>>:
> Hi Laura
>
> This site is DEAD.  It feels like a lifetime ago that I last posted here
>
> Firstly, I think you should speak / search Neurofeedback (NFB) rather than
> biofeedback.
>
> If someone tells me he is interested in biofeedback I think about:
>
> - Hand temperature biofeedback to reduce migraines
> - GSR / SCL skin resistance biofeedback for meditation, hypertension, etc
> - HRV (Heart Rate Variance),  for similar uses as SCL
> -  etc.
>
> Here are three group recommendations:
>
> Brain-trainer
> brain-trainer.com<http://brain-trainer.com>  run by Peter van Deusen.  Peter used to be a hospital
> administrator (I think), many years ago in the US.  I think the man must
> have at least 20 years of NFB experience by now.  Very helpful and
> knowledgeable.  For the last few years he has been operating from
> Brazil.  He has a very active community and a forum where they discuss
> various NFB applications, etc.
>
> OpenBCI
> https://openbci.com/
> Their main goal is to use BCI ( Brain Computer Interfacing) for command and
> control.  For instance, a handycaped person that can control a wheelchair
> or computer with a BCI interface.
>
> OpenVIBE
> http://openvibe.inria.fr/
> A research organisation based in France
> They seem to concentrate on the software layer running on various BCI
> equipment.  Not sure how active they are these days.
>
> Regards
> Stefan
>


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Re: [Openeeg-list] Trying to do some research on the effects of biofeedback

[Jens K. <jn...@gm...>]

Hi Ray,

my comment was based largely on my frustrating experiences with
Othmer-style neurofeedback therapy. It may be useful in many cases,
but certainly was not in mine. Coming from decades of intense hassle
with human-potential-therapies (from Grof's Holotropic Breathwork to
Ayahuasca) I never felt the slightest inclination to study academic
papers in psychology, and still don't. (This is probably due to my
very limited mental capacities as well) It seemed always selfevident
to me that a helpful approach to mental health should elude
quantitative evaluation. What totally blew my mind, though, was Sebern
Fisher's  'Neurofeedback in the Treatment of Developmental Trauma'.

Regards,

Jens Körner

2021-04-12 17:50 GMT+02:00, Ray Cole <ray...@ms...>:
> Hi Jens,
>
> What you stated is logical, just as it would make sense to consider almost
> any kind medical treatment to be more effective, if tailored to the needs of
> a particular patient, rather than using a 'one-size-fits-all' approach;
> however, I would like to see the results of any rigorous, scientific studies
> which have examined the effectiveness of qEEG therapy; so far, I have yet to
> encounter mention of any such study.
>
> The key word in your response is 'allegedly,' which sounds as though you,
> too, are basing your comment on anecdotal reports, not a published,
> scientific study. So far, I am in the same position as you, having only
> heard of amazing results, but still left wondering if they are really based
> on any rigorous studies that include such things as repeatability,
> double-blinded protocol, statistical analysis, peer review, etc. If you know
> of any such studies, I would appreciate it, if you could point me to them.
> Of course, the problem with such extravagant results as those claimed by the
> commercial providers is the same as anyone who is trying to make money, so
> they are of no interest, to me.
>
> From what I have found, online, it appears as though the use of qEEG is not
> widespread in the medical community, which makes it suspect; as the old
> saying goes, 'The proof is in the pudding'; i.e., if it really works, then
> you wonder why it is not widely used by now, since it has been around for
> decades.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ray Cole
> ray...@ms...
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jens Körner <jn...@gm...>
> Sent: Saturday, April 3, 2021 1:59 AM
> To: Discussion of EEG hardware, software, training protocols, NFB theory -
> for developers and users. <ope...@li...>
> Subject: Re: [Openeeg-list] Trying to do some research on the effects of
> biofeedback
>
> Hi Laura,
>
> my experience with neurofeedback is mainly as a patient of severe
> early childhood brain trauma.
>
> In my opinion the main source of confusion in the field originates in
> a lack of differentiation:
>
> Broadly speaking, there are two very different kinds of
> neurofeedbacktrainig: 1. The generalized way: trainig each
> participant's brain to match a statistical average. That's done by
> most providers. It's a little bit scalable and sometimes has some
> useful effect.
> 2. The individualized approach (Sebern Fisher, Jim Hardt): totally
> unscalable; therefore expensive; with allegedly spectacular results.
>
> Perhaps this is of some use to you.
> Regards
> Jens
>
>
>
> 2021-04-03 10:03 GMT+02:00, Stefan Jung <bio...@gm...>:
>> Hi Laura
>>
>> This site is DEAD.  It feels like a lifetime ago that I last posted here
>>
>> Firstly, I think you should speak / search Neurofeedback (NFB) rather
>> than
>> biofeedback.
>>
>> If someone tells me he is interested in biofeedback I think about:
>>
>> - Hand temperature biofeedback to reduce migraines
>> - GSR / SCL skin resistance biofeedback for meditation, hypertension, etc
>> - HRV (Heart Rate Variance),  for similar uses as SCL
>> -  etc.
>>
>> Here are three group recommendations:
>>
>> Brain-trainer
>> brain-trainer.com  run by Peter van Deusen.  Peter used to be a hospital
>> administrator (I think), many years ago in the US.  I think the man must
>> have at least 20 years of NFB experience by now.  Very helpful and
>> knowledgeable.  For the last few years he has been operating from
>> Brazil.  He has a very active community and a forum where they discuss
>> various NFB applications, etc.
>>
>> OpenBCI
>> https://openbci.com/
>> Their main goal is to use BCI ( Brain Computer Interfacing) for command
>> and
>> control.  For instance, a handycaped person that can control a wheelchair
>> or computer with a BCI interface.
>>
>> OpenVIBE
>> http://openvibe.inria.fr/
>> A research organisation based in France
>> They seem to concentrate on the software layer running on various BCI
>> equipment.  Not sure how active they are these days.
>>
>> Regards
>> Stefan
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openeeg-list mailing list
> Ope...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
> Go to the above address to change your
> subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
>

Re: [Openeeg-list] Trying to do some research on the effects of biofeedback

[Ray C. <ray...@ms...>]

Hi Jens,

What you stated is logical, just as it would make sense to consider almost any kind medical treatment to be more effective, if tailored to the needs of a particular patient, rather than using a 'one-size-fits-all' approach; however, I would like to see the results of any rigorous, scientific studies which have examined the effectiveness of qEEG therapy; so far, I have yet to encounter mention of any such study.

The key word in your response is 'allegedly,' which sounds as though you, too, are basing your comment on anecdotal reports, not a published, scientific study. So far, I am in the same position as you, having only heard of amazing results, but still left wondering if they are really based on any rigorous studies that include such things as repeatability, double-blinded protocol, statistical analysis, peer review, etc. If you know of any such studies, I would appreciate it, if you could point me to them.  Of course, the problem with such extravagant results as those claimed by the commercial providers is the same as anyone who is trying to make money, so they are of no interest, to me.

>From what I have found, online, it appears as though the use of qEEG is not widespread in the medical community, which makes it suspect; as the old saying goes, 'The proof is in the pudding'; i.e., if it really works, then you wonder why it is not widely used by now, since it has been around for decades.

Regards,

Ray Cole
ray...@ms...



________________________________
From: Jens Körner <jn...@gm...>
Sent: Saturday, April 3, 2021 1:59 AM
To: Discussion of EEG hardware, software, training protocols, NFB theory - for developers and users. <ope...@li...>
Subject: Re: [Openeeg-list] Trying to do some research on the effects of biofeedback

Hi Laura,

my experience with neurofeedback is mainly as a patient of severe
early childhood brain trauma.

In my opinion the main source of confusion in the field originates in
a lack of differentiation:

Broadly speaking, there are two very different kinds of
neurofeedbacktrainig: 1. The generalized way: trainig each
participant's brain to match a statistical average. That's done by
most providers. It's a little bit scalable and sometimes has some
useful effect.
2. The individualized approach (Sebern Fisher, Jim Hardt): totally
unscalable; therefore expensive; with allegedly spectacular results.

Perhaps this is of some use to you.
Regards
Jens



2021-04-03 10:03 GMT+02:00, Stefan Jung <bio...@gm...>:
> Hi Laura
>
> This site is DEAD.  It feels like a lifetime ago that I last posted here
>
> Firstly, I think you should speak / search Neurofeedback (NFB) rather than
> biofeedback.
>
> If someone tells me he is interested in biofeedback I think about:
>
> - Hand temperature biofeedback to reduce migraines
> - GSR / SCL skin resistance biofeedback for meditation, hypertension, etc
> - HRV (Heart Rate Variance),  for similar uses as SCL
> -  etc.
>
> Here are three group recommendations:
>
> Brain-trainer
> brain-trainer.com  run by Peter van Deusen.  Peter used to be a hospital
> administrator (I think), many years ago in the US.  I think the man must
> have at least 20 years of NFB experience by now.  Very helpful and
> knowledgeable.  For the last few years he has been operating from
> Brazil.  He has a very active community and a forum where they discuss
> various NFB applications, etc.
>
> OpenBCI
> https://openbci.com/
> Their main goal is to use BCI ( Brain Computer Interfacing) for command and
> control.  For instance, a handycaped person that can control a wheelchair
> or computer with a BCI interface.
>
> OpenVIBE
> http://openvibe.inria.fr/
> A research organisation based in France
> They seem to concentrate on the software layer running on various BCI
> equipment.  Not sure how active they are these days.
>
> Regards
> Stefan
>


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Re: [Openeeg-list] Trying to do some research on the effects of biofeedback

[Peter L. <pet...@gm...>]

As a neurofeedback provider and someone who has spent a few years pretty
interested in the expanse of the field, I would say that Jens' broad
description of the branches of the field is accurate, that they all seem to
have some efficacy, but in my own experience and those of many others in
the field, moving into lower frequencies (in the slow cortical potential or
infralow frequency realm) and away from training to a statistical average
seems to be generally much more efficacious and powerful (though does
require a trained provider guiding the process since it can move so
quickly). This is in no way to denigrate the other approaches, which I do
believe may have their own specific advantages.
For those interested in the symptom based, low frequency approach, Id
strongly recommend looking into the Othmers and their work.
eeginfo.com
is a good place to start

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 1:59 AM Jens Körner <jn...@gm...> wrote:

> Hi Laura,
>
> my experience with neurofeedback is mainly as a patient of severe
> early childhood brain trauma.
>
> In my opinion the main source of confusion in the field originates in
> a lack of differentiation:
>
> Broadly speaking, there are two very different kinds of
> neurofeedbacktrainig: 1. The generalized way: trainig each
> participant's brain to match a statistical average. That's done by
> most providers. It's a little bit scalable and sometimes has some
> useful effect.
> 2. The individualized approach (Sebern Fisher, Jim Hardt): totally
> unscalable; therefore expensive; with allegedly spectacular results.
>
> Perhaps this is of some use to you.
> Regards
> Jens
>
>
>
> 2021-04-03 10:03 GMT+02:00, Stefan Jung <bio...@gm...>:
> > Hi Laura
> >
> > This site is DEAD.  It feels like a lifetime ago that I last posted here
> >
> > Firstly, I think you should speak / search Neurofeedback (NFB) rather
> than
> > biofeedback.
> >
> > If someone tells me he is interested in biofeedback I think about:
> >
> > - Hand temperature biofeedback to reduce migraines
> > - GSR / SCL skin resistance biofeedback for meditation, hypertension, etc
> > - HRV (Heart Rate Variance),  for similar uses as SCL
> > -  etc.
> >
> > Here are three group recommendations:
> >
> > Brain-trainer
> > brain-trainer.com  run by Peter van Deusen.  Peter used to be a hospital
> > administrator (I think), many years ago in the US.  I think the man must
> > have at least 20 years of NFB experience by now.  Very helpful and
> > knowledgeable.  For the last few years he has been operating from
> > Brazil.  He has a very active community and a forum where they discuss
> > various NFB applications, etc.
> >
> > OpenBCI
> > https://openbci.com/
> > Their main goal is to use BCI ( Brain Computer Interfacing) for command
> and
> > control.  For instance, a handycaped person that can control a wheelchair
> > or computer with a BCI interface.
> >
> > OpenVIBE
> > http://openvibe.inria.fr/
> > A research organisation based in France
> > They seem to concentrate on the software layer running on various BCI
> > equipment.  Not sure how active they are these days.
> >
> > Regards
> > Stefan
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openeeg-list mailing list
> Ope...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
> Go to the above address to change your
> subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
>

Re: [Openeeg-list] Openeeg-list Digest, Vol 147, Issue 2

[LM <lm...@gm...>]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 4:04 AM Stefan Jung wrote:
> Firstly, I think you should speak / search Neurofeedback (NFB) rather than
> biofeedback.
>
> If someone tells me he is interested in biofeedback I think about:
>
> - Hand temperature biofeedback to reduce migraines
> - GSR / SCL skin resistance biofeedback for meditation, hypertension, etc
> - HRV (Heart Rate Variance),  for similar uses as SCL
> -  etc.

I use a GSR too.  I've used both a GSR and EEG to try to increase
alpha and theta brainwaves.  Had a psychology teacher in college who
used relaxation and a GSR to help her get her cancer into a remission
state.  I'll check out the sites you mentioned.  I think I'm more
interested in biofeedback related resources, but per your suggestions,
I'll check into neurofeedback as well.

Thank you.

SIncerely,
Laura

Re: [Openeeg-list] Trying to do some research on the effects of biofeedback

[Jens K. <jn...@gm...>]

Hi Laura,

my experience with neurofeedback is mainly as a patient of severe
early childhood brain trauma.

In my opinion the main source of confusion in the field originates in
a lack of differentiation:

Broadly speaking, there are two very different kinds of
neurofeedbacktrainig: 1. The generalized way: trainig each
participant's brain to match a statistical average. That's done by
most providers. It's a little bit scalable and sometimes has some
useful effect.
2. The individualized approach (Sebern Fisher, Jim Hardt): totally
unscalable; therefore expensive; with allegedly spectacular results.

Perhaps this is of some use to you.
Regards
Jens



2021-04-03 10:03 GMT+02:00, Stefan Jung <bio...@gm...>:
> Hi Laura
>
> This site is DEAD.  It feels like a lifetime ago that I last posted here
>
> Firstly, I think you should speak / search Neurofeedback (NFB) rather than
> biofeedback.
>
> If someone tells me he is interested in biofeedback I think about:
>
> - Hand temperature biofeedback to reduce migraines
> - GSR / SCL skin resistance biofeedback for meditation, hypertension, etc
> - HRV (Heart Rate Variance),  for similar uses as SCL
> -  etc.
>
> Here are three group recommendations:
>
> Brain-trainer
> brain-trainer.com  run by Peter van Deusen.  Peter used to be a hospital
> administrator (I think), many years ago in the US.  I think the man must
> have at least 20 years of NFB experience by now.  Very helpful and
> knowledgeable.  For the last few years he has been operating from
> Brazil.  He has a very active community and a forum where they discuss
> various NFB applications, etc.
>
> OpenBCI
> https://openbci.com/
> Their main goal is to use BCI ( Brain Computer Interfacing) for command and
> control.  For instance, a handycaped person that can control a wheelchair
> or computer with a BCI interface.
>
> OpenVIBE
> http://openvibe.inria.fr/
> A research organisation based in France
> They seem to concentrate on the software layer running on various BCI
> equipment.  Not sure how active they are these days.
>
> Regards
> Stefan
>

Re: [Openeeg-list] Trying to do some research on the effects of biofeedback

[Stefan J. <bio...@gm...>]

Hi Laura

This site is DEAD.  It feels like a lifetime ago that I last posted here

Firstly, I think you should speak / search Neurofeedback (NFB) rather than
biofeedback.

If someone tells me he is interested in biofeedback I think about:

- Hand temperature biofeedback to reduce migraines
- GSR / SCL skin resistance biofeedback for meditation, hypertension, etc
- HRV (Heart Rate Variance),  for similar uses as SCL
-  etc.

Here are three group recommendations:

Brain-trainer
brain-trainer.com  run by Peter van Deusen.  Peter used to be a hospital
administrator (I think), many years ago in the US.  I think the man must
have at least 20 years of NFB experience by now.  Very helpful and
knowledgeable.  For the last few years he has been operating from
Brazil.  He has a very active community and a forum where they discuss
various NFB applications, etc.

OpenBCI
https://openbci.com/
Their main goal is to use BCI ( Brain Computer Interfacing) for command and
control.  For instance, a handycaped person that can control a wheelchair
or computer with a BCI interface.

OpenVIBE
http://openvibe.inria.fr/
A research organisation based in France
They seem to concentrate on the software layer running on various BCI
equipment.  Not sure how active they are these days.

Regards
Stefan

Re: [Openeeg-list] Trying to do some research on the effects of biofeedback

[Steve S. <acu...@gm...>]

qEEG

On Fri, Apr 2, 2021, 9:34 PM Ray Cole <ray...@ms...> wrote:

> Hi Laura.
>
> I am a member of the Openeeg-list group, and read your post requesting
> pointers to information about the use and nature of biofeedback on the
> mind.
>
> Several years ago, I became curious about the whole concept of
> biofeedback, after reading two or three books which promoted biofeedback as
> being a very effective way to deal with the mind capabilities, as well as
> its problems. However, the books seemed to make the whole concept to be a
> bit like snake oil medicine, offering cures for everything from hangnails
> to autism, so I wasn't too taken with the whole idea. I was intrigued and
> curious, but still rather skeptical. Maybe I was just being a bit too
> skeptical.
>
> However, after finding the Openeeg website, I saw the plans with which one
> could construct their own eeg device, so I thought it would be fun to just
> give it a try. (Many years ago, when I was in the navy, I was a radar
> electronics technician, so I have the basic skills to undertake such an
> easy project, and anyway, it just sounded like a fun project to tinker
> with. Who wouldn't like to play with their own brain?)
>
> So, I went ahead and, for about only $300, made one and got the ancillary
> materials (electrodes, paste, etc.). It works great, but I didn't really
> know what I was doing, as far as the actually application and
> interpretation of my results were concerned. At that point, I needed a
> class in the use of the device and the interpretation of its results, but
> wasn't about to pay the large fees they were charging for those who
> probably, in most cases, wanted to become certified therapists.
>
> So, as a result, I just played around with it for a year or so, using the
> free Brain Bay software that you've probably seen mentioned on the Openeeg
> website. It was all fun and interesting to watch my own brain waves, but as
> stated, I lacked the knowledge and skills requisite to any actual use and
> application of them. So, I put it away and haven't even looked at it in
> years.
>
> I also quit frequenting the Openeeg website. Every now & then a message
> from the Openeeg website pops up, but I usually just delete them, without
> even giving them a read; however, for some reason, I opened yours and saw
> what you had written, requesting information.
>
> So, the reason I am writing to you is because, as of late, I have thinking
> that maybe I didn't really give biofeedback a fair trial, and have wondered
> about just how effective it really is for some things. Thus, your message,
> requesting information struck a chord with me, as it seems as though we
> might be on the same 'wavelength,' so to speak.
>
> I have, halfheartedly, tried to find any information as to how effective
> biofeedback has truly proved to be in such areas as ADD, autism, memory, as
> well as other things.; however, everything I've seen hasn't seemed very
> academic, and appears to be nothing more than anecdotal evaluations, much
> like you might get from reading the reviews given by people regarding the
> lawn chairs they recently bought on Amazon. I'm not interested in that kind
> of evaluation, but am searching for unbiased, rigorous, scientific
> studies concerning the effectiveness of biofeedback, much as what I assume
> that you, yourself, are seeking.
>
> If I find that biofeedback is, in fact, a valid approach to much of what
> it's touted to be, then I will give it a more concerted effort and study,
> although I'm still not going to spend thousands of dollars on classes.
> Instead, I would opt for doing some research as to how one uses and
> interprets the results of biofeedback sessions. Between Google, YouTube,
> the library system, and online classes from major universities, there is
> now a plethora of knowledge 'out there,' to which one can avail themselves,
> so it seems possible that one can now probably bring themselves up to a
> level that would meet my own needs and interests. If your need for
> information is pursuant to more scholarly or professional goals, then that,
> of course, is another matter.
>
> So, to make a long story short, I am just writing to let you know that,
> since we seem to be on at least a similar path, I will certainly pass on
> anything that I find, and would appreciate hearing about anything that you
> might run across, as well.  Like they say, 'two heads are better than one,'
> so maybe we can put our efforts together and come up with a decent
> collection of studies. Tomorrow, I will send you a list of the material
> which I already have, such as it is, but right now it's time to get ready
> for bed.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Ray Cole
> ray...@ms...
> ------------------------------
> *From:* LM <lm...@gm...>
> *Sent:* Friday, April 2, 2021 8:16 AM
> *To:* ope...@li... <
> ope...@li...>
> *Subject:* [Openeeg-list] Trying to do some research on the effects of
> biofeedback
>
> I'm doing some research on the effects of using biofeedback.  I'm
> trying to look for research, articles, papers, etc. comparing the
> results of biofeedback training and meditation and hypnagogic states.
> Also looking for research, articles about what people think alpha and
> theta waves represent and how asymmetry or waves being more prevalent
> in one hemisphere than another or one part of the brain versus another
> might affect that.  For instance, some research connects presence of
> theta waves with activities such as storing memories and daydreaming.
>
> If anyone has any pointers to information on these subjects, would
> greatly appreciate hearing about it.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Sincerely,
> Laura
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openeeg-list mailing list
> Ope...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
> Go to the above address to change your
> subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
> _______________________________________________
> Openeeg-list mailing list
> Ope...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
> Go to the above address to change your
> subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
>

Re: [Openeeg-list] Trying to do some research on the effects of biofeedback

[Ray C. <ray...@ms...>]

Hi Laura.

I am a member of the Openeeg-list group, and read your post requesting pointers to information about the use and nature of biofeedback on the mind.

Several years ago, I became curious about the whole concept of biofeedback, after reading two or three books which promoted biofeedback as being a very effective way to deal with the mind capabilities, as well as its problems. However, the books seemed to make the whole concept to be a bit like snake oil medicine, offering cures for everything from hangnails to autism, so I wasn't too taken with the whole idea. I was intrigued and curious, but still rather skeptical. Maybe I was just being a bit too skeptical.

However, after finding the Openeeg website, I saw the plans with which one could construct their own eeg device, so I thought it would be fun to just give it a try. (Many years ago, when I was in the navy, I was a radar electronics technician, so I have the basic skills to undertake such an easy project, and anyway, it just sounded like a fun project to tinker with. Who wouldn't like to play with their own brain?)

So, I went ahead and, for about only $300, made one and got the ancillary materials (electrodes, paste, etc.). It works great, but I didn't really know what I was doing, as far as the actually application and interpretation of my results were concerned. At that point, I needed a class in the use of the device and the interpretation of its results, but wasn't about to pay the large fees they were charging for those who probably, in most cases, wanted to become certified therapists.

So, as a result, I just played around with it for a year or so, using the free Brain Bay software that you've probably seen mentioned on the Openeeg website. It was all fun and interesting to watch my own brain waves, but as stated, I lacked the knowledge and skills requisite to any actual use and application of them. So, I put it away and haven't even looked at it in years.

I also quit frequenting the Openeeg website. Every now & then a message from the Openeeg website pops up, but I usually just delete them, without even giving them a read; however, for some reason, I opened yours and saw what you had written, requesting information.

So, the reason I am writing to you is because, as of late, I have thinking that maybe I didn't really give biofeedback a fair trial, and have wondered about just how effective it really is for some things. Thus, your message, requesting information struck a chord with me, as it seems as though we might be on the same 'wavelength,' so to speak.

I have, halfheartedly, tried to find any information as to how effective biofeedback has truly proved to be in such areas as ADD, autism, memory, as well as other things.; however, everything I've seen hasn't seemed very academic, and appears to be nothing more than anecdotal evaluations, much like you might get from reading the reviews given by people regarding the lawn chairs they recently bought on Amazon. I'm not interested in that kind of evaluation, but am searching for unbiased, rigorous, scientific studies concerning the effectiveness of biofeedback, much as what I assume that you, yourself, are seeking.

If I find that biofeedback is, in fact, a valid approach to much of what it's touted to be, then I will give it a more concerted effort and study, although I'm still not going to spend thousands of dollars on classes. Instead, I would opt for doing some research as to how one uses and interprets the results of biofeedback sessions. Between Google, YouTube, the library system, and online classes from major universities, there is now a plethora of knowledge 'out there,' to which one can avail themselves, so it seems possible that one can now probably bring themselves up to a level that would meet my own needs and interests. If your need for information is pursuant to more scholarly or professional goals, then that, of course, is another matter.

So, to make a long story short, I am just writing to let you know that, since we seem to be on at least a similar path, I will certainly pass on anything that I find, and would appreciate hearing about anything that you might run across, as well.  Like they say, 'two heads are better than one,' so maybe we can put our efforts together and come up with a decent collection of studies. Tomorrow, I will send you a list of the material which I already have, such as it is, but right now it's time to get ready for bed.

Best Regards,

Ray Cole
ray...@ms...
________________________________
From: LM <lm...@gm...>
Sent: Friday, April 2, 2021 8:16 AM
To: ope...@li... <ope...@li...>
Subject: [Openeeg-list] Trying to do some research on the effects of biofeedback

I'm doing some research on the effects of using biofeedback.  I'm
trying to look for research, articles, papers, etc. comparing the
results of biofeedback training and meditation and hypnagogic states.
Also looking for research, articles about what people think alpha and
theta waves represent and how asymmetry or waves being more prevalent
in one hemisphere than another or one part of the brain versus another
might affect that.  For instance, some research connects presence of
theta waves with activities such as storing memories and daydreaming.

If anyone has any pointers to information on these subjects, would
greatly appreciate hearing about it.

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
Laura


_______________________________________________
Openeeg-list mailing list
Ope...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
Go to the above address to change your
subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.

Re: [Openeeg-list] Trying to do some research on the effects of biofeedback

[Steve S. <acu...@gm...>]

qEEG

On Fri, Apr 2, 2021, 8:27 AM LM <lm...@gm...> wrote:

> I'm doing some research on the effects of using biofeedback.  I'm
> trying to look for research, articles, papers, etc. comparing the
> results of biofeedback training and meditation and hypnagogic states.
> Also looking for research, articles about what people think alpha and
> theta waves represent and how asymmetry or waves being more prevalent
> in one hemisphere than another or one part of the brain versus another
> might affect that.  For instance, some research connects presence of
> theta waves with activities such as storing memories and daydreaming.
>
> If anyone has any pointers to information on these subjects, would
> greatly appreciate hearing about it.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Sincerely,
> Laura
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openeeg-list mailing list
> Ope...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
> Go to the above address to change your
> subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
>