myhdl-list — Mailing list for discussions on MyHDL

[myhdl-list] Python package organization

[Christopher F. <chr...@gm...>]

Slightly off-topic, where do people like to put there tests (unit tests) 
in a python package directory structure?  Using the example in the 
Python documents:

   python_pkg/
      setup.py
      sound/                     Top-level package
       __init__.py               Initialize the sound package
       formats/                  Subpackage for file format conversions
               __init__.py
               wavread.py
               wavwrite.py
               ...
       effects/                  Subpackage for sound effects
               __init__.py
               echo.py
               surround.py
               reverse.py
               ...
       filters/                  Subpackage for filters
               __init__.py
               equalizer.py
               ...

Would you have one test folder in python_pkg/ or sound/ with all the 
tests.  Or do you have module specific tests with the modules.  Or a 
combination.

In general, I suppose this is project specific.  Some projects don't 
benefit from a package/module organization.  But there are some 
technical constraints, e.g. if the test access as a package or 
individual modules.

I usually end up with something like:

   python_pkg/
      setup.py
      sound/
          __init__.py
          formats/
               __init__.py
               wavread.py
               wavwrite.py
               test_wav.py
               ...
          effects/
               __init__.py
               echo.py
               surround.py
               reverse.py
               test_echo.py
               test_surround.py
               ...
          filters/
               __init__.py
               equalizer.py
               ...
       test/
          test_sound.py
          test_echo.py


I have top-level, system tests, and module tests.

Regards,
Chris

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Bob C. <fl...@gm...>]

On 03/13/2012 02:19 AM, Jan Decaluwe wrote:
> On 03/13/2012 02:07 AM, Bob Cunningham wrote:
>
>>  From my perspective as an HDL newbie (but a 30+ year engineering
>> veteran otherwise), major feature development in MyHDL appears to
>> have stalled, and Migen provides important capabilities MyHDL either
>> lacks or can implement only with cumbersome and fragile kluges or
>> work-arounds.  (At least, that's what they look like to me, with my
>> newbie eyes and brain.)
> Could you please provide a list of those important capabilities
> that MyHDL lacks in your opinion?

I must admit I set MyHDL aside a few months ago after having daunting problems getting my 'simple' systems to work (mainly trying to glue together components from Open Cores).  I had trouble writing useful MyHDL, and I found that one of my 'glue' problems, a Wishbone interface, had a simpler solution (from my perspective) in Migen.  It could have been a unique or special case, I don't know enough yet to tell: I haven't solved all my other problems with this project.

Another project idea, a dataflow signal processor for a 'flying pixel' camera, had me spending all my initial design time working on the interface between the dataflow stages (simple in software, harder in hardware) rather than on the content of each stage.  Though I haven't implemented anything yet, it seems to me that Migen may make such interfaces easier.

However, the sum of my difficulties showed me that I lacked the perspective and depth needed to make proper use of MyHDL, so I'm taking some time to extend my hardware skills, to design some circuits and boards.  Back to schematic capture, device specs, board layout, and using an o'scope and logic analyzer.

I understand using gates (bits), and I understand using chips (interfaces).  It's the stuff in between that I'm having problems with.  From my limited perspective, it seems to me that Migen does particularly well with interfaces, and the distinct separation between sequential and combinatorial logic seems to fit my current thought processes.

I have no idea how far I can go with Migen compared to MyHDL.  But the initial learning curve, with the goal of making my Spartan 3E board do fun and useful things, for the moment seems to favor Migen over MyHDL.

But I am well aware that situation may not persist as my knowledge and experience grow.  I have no intention of abandoning MyHDL: I closely monitor this list, and I periodically review the MyHDL documentation (especially the examples) to see if my comprehension has grown.

Perhaps Migen makes FPGA development feel more like building with Legos:  It makes it easy(er) to create parts and click them together.  I suspect MyHDL may more like a machine shop: More skill is required to make use of it, but there may be no limit to what can be built, such as a Lego factory.

Migen feels more newbie-friendly, while MyHDL may be more attractive to battle-weary V*HDL veterans.  Migen is FPGA-centric, while MyHDL is fully ASIC-capable.  Migen sometimes implements features inelegantly, while MyHDL excludes inelegant features.  Practicality vs purity.  High-level abstractions vs low-level power.

Bottom line, I suspect both tools have their place, and share enough common premises that it is a mistake to view one as competing with or detracting from the other: Both agree the V*HDLs have limitations, both agree Python is a great tool for implementing HDLs.  Each chooses a different approach, provides differing capabilities, targets a slightly different domain, and may attract different groups of users, all of which appears to me to be more complimentary than competitive.

I don't see how there can be any need to push Migen and MyHDL apart: I think they should stand back-to-back and show the V*HDLs better ways to fill FPGAs.  More like siblings who occasionally argue, than any kind of enemy.


-BobC

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Christopher F. <chr...@gm...>]

On 3/13/2012 7:32 AM, Bob Cunningham wrote:
> On 03/12/2012 08:14 PM, Christopher Felton wrote:
>> On 3/12/12 8:07 PM, Bob Cunningham wrote:
>>> Sébastien/Migen has to be doing something right: It got Jan back on this list!  Yay!!!
>> You don't realize it but you are being a complete *ASS* with that statement.
>
> I am very aware that Jan took time away from the list under difficult personal circumstances, and my thoughts and best wishes have been with him every time I read this list.
>
> I'm saying I've missed Jan's presence here.  Aside from occasional comments like the above, Chris has done a great job carrying the torch and keeping this list highly responsive.  But nothing can replace the presence of MyHDL's creator and guiding light.  I also find that Jan has a great way of providing context for his technical answers, which means a lot to me as a beginner, where 'why' often matters more to me than the details of 'what' and 'how'.
>

I completely agree, Jan D. can't be replaced and his knowledge and 
leadership is essential.

I let my emotions direct my comments a little too much, I am sorry for 
the name calling.  I could have made my point more elegantly without the 
attack.

Lets get back to the technical issues and building great things :)

Regards,
Chris

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Christopher F. <chr...@gm...>]

On 3/13/2012 7:32 AM, Bob Cunningham wrote:
> On 03/12/2012 08:14 PM, Christopher Felton wrote:
>> On 3/12/12 8:07 PM, Bob Cunningham wrote:
>>> Sébastien/Migen has to be doing something right: It got Jan back on this list!  Yay!!!
>> You don't realize it but you are being a complete *ASS* with that statement.
>
> I am very aware that Jan took time away from the list under difficult personal circumstances, and my thoughts and best wishes have been with him every time I read this list.
>
> I'm saying I've missed Jan's presence here.  Aside from occasional comments like the above, Chris has done a great job carrying the torch and keeping this list highly responsive.  But nothing can replace the presence of MyHDL's creator and guiding light.  I also find that Jan has a great way of providing context for his technical answers, which means a lot to me as a beginner, where 'why' often matters more to me than the details of 'what' and 'how'.
>
> I'm amazed Chris finds that my simple joy at seeing Jan's posts makes me an "ass".
>
> Back at you, buddy.
>
>
> -BobC
>

Your comment wasn't a simple, glad to see Jan is back or concern for 
individuals.  You stated, you were happy that Migen has stirred the pot. 
  It seemed very selfish how I read it.

Regards,
Chris

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Bob C. <fl...@gm...>]

On 03/12/2012 08:14 PM, Christopher Felton wrote:
> On 3/12/12 8:07 PM, Bob Cunningham wrote:
>> Sébastien/Migen has to be doing something right: It got Jan back on this list!  Yay!!!
> You don't realize it but you are being a complete *ASS* with that statement.

I am very aware that Jan took time away from the list under difficult personal circumstances, and my thoughts and best wishes have been with him every time I read this list.

I'm saying I've missed Jan's presence here.  Aside from occasional comments like the above, Chris has done a great job carrying the torch and keeping this list highly responsive.  But nothing can replace the presence of MyHDL's creator and guiding light.  I also find that Jan has a great way of providing context for his technical answers, which means a lot to me as a beginner, where 'why' often matters more to me than the details of 'what' and 'how'.

I'm amazed Chris finds that my simple joy at seeing Jan's posts makes me an "ass".

Back at you, buddy.


-BobC

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Christopher L. <loz...@fr...>]

On 3/13/12 5:19 AM, Jan Decaluwe wrote:
> I think this should be obvious to anyone who takes the
> trouble of reading the (relevant parts of) the Migen
> manual. However, if there are less experienced MyHDL-ers
> who would like to hear a detailed assessment on
> why I say this, 

I just keep one eye on this mailing list.  I would love to hear the
philosophical differences between the two approaches.  I would love to
buy a copy of Jan's book.  Great way to pay him for all of his work on
this project.  Plus I need it.

It would be really great to know what is shared between the two
libraries, and what is different.  I just want a one page description. 
I do not want to read through all the old emails.  I do not want to read
the migen manual.  I just want an introductory description that both
parties, or at least several intelligent individuals,  agree to as to
what is shared and what is different.

Then if I choose to, I can figure out which library to explore further. 

In the zope world, it is only recently that I found such a document for
zope2, bluebream, zope 4, grok and Pyramid.  It was hugely helpful. 
Something like that is needed here.

-- 
Regards
Christopher Lozinski

Check out my iPhone apps TextFaster and EmailFaster
http://textfaster.com

Expect a paradigm shift.
http://MyHDL.org

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Jan D. <ja...@ja...>]

On 03/12/2012 11:24 PM, Sébastien Bourdeauducq wrote:
> On 03/12/2012 10:44 PM, Jan Decaluwe wrote:
>> As for a Migen/MyHDL merger, stop insulting our intelligence here,
>> we are engineers. It is your good right to think the event-driven
>> paradigm is the wrong choice. But of course you and I know damn
>> well that the paradigm choice is the fundamental design decision
>> behind an HDL. If you make a fundamentally different decision,
>> than*that*  is the reason why a "merge" is not possible, not
>> our intransigence.
>
> Oh. You lack imagination.

Probably, but not a sense of aesthetics I hope. If you say
in the Migen manual that Migen "differs from MyHDL in
fundamental ways" (and on this you are absolutely right),
it is quite obvious that a "merger" would feel ugly,
awkward and confusing.  

I don't intend to create a new SystemVerilog.

Let me add that "differs" is even too weak. Migen goes
fundamentally against the essence of what MyHDL wants
to be and its most relevant features and innovations.
I think this should be obvious to anyone who takes the
trouble of reading the (relevant parts of) the Migen
manual. However, if there are less experienced MyHDL-ers
who would like to hear a detailed assessment on
why I say this, I will do so as an educational exercise
in what HDL-based design is about (in my book).

Jan

-- 
Jan Decaluwe - Resources bvba - http://www.jandecaluwe.com
     Python as a HDL: http://www.myhdl.org
     VHDL development, the modern way: http://www.sigasi.com
     World-class digital design: http://www.easics.com

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Jan D. <ja...@ja...>]

On 03/13/2012 02:07 AM, Bob Cunningham wrote:

> From my perspective as an HDL newbie (but a 30+ year engineering
> veteran otherwise), major feature development in MyHDL appears to
> have stalled, and Migen provides important capabilities MyHDL either
> lacks or can implement only with cumbersome and fragile kluges or
> work-arounds.  (At least, that's what they look like to me, with my
> newbie eyes and brain.)

Could you please provide a list of those important capabilities
that MyHDL lacks in your opinion?

-- 
Jan Decaluwe - Resources bvba - http://www.jandecaluwe.com
     Python as a HDL: http://www.myhdl.org
     VHDL development, the modern way: http://www.sigasi.com
     World-class digital design: http://www.easics.com

Re: [myhdl-list] CASPER/UC Berkley is considering MyHDL

[Wesley N. <we...@sk...>]

Hi Guys,

This is a project that I am trying to get going, the most active fork is
the one Chris linked: https://github.com/wnew/hdl_devel But Ill hope to
push it to the master at https://github.com/casper-astro/hdl_devel soon.

Here is a brief overview for anyone who is interested:

We are using simulation and verification functionality that MyHDL provides
thought Python, to model hardware designs. We are creating highly
parameterised verilog cores and wrapping them with a layer of Python. These
serve as the building blocks for designs, each block providing a simulation
model and glue logic in Python. This is all brought together by the
framework which will implement functionality such as automatic bus
management and also manage clock domains. Ultimately a block diagram based
GUI will be used to create designs. The aim is to be able to support any
vendor and provide the designer with a "one-click" compile solution.

Regards

Wes

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:21 AM, Christopher Felton
<chr...@gm...>wrote:

> On 3/12/12 10:16 PM, Karl Kaiser wrote:
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I thought this may be interesting for this list:
> >
> > https://casper.berkeley.edu/wiki/MyHDL_toolflow
> >
> > Enjoy,
> > Karl
> >
> >
> Thanks for the post Karl.  There has been some development efforts by
> different Casper contributors started,
>
>   https://github.com/wnew/hdl_devel
>
> There are a couple active development branches I lost track which one is
> the most active (github fork view will some info).
>
> Regards,
> Chris
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [myhdl-list] CASPER/UC Berkley is considering MyHDL

[Christopher F. <chr...@gm...>]

On 3/12/12 10:16 PM, Karl Kaiser wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I thought this may be interesting for this list:
>
> https://casper.berkeley.edu/wiki/MyHDL_toolflow
>
> Enjoy,
> Karl
>
>
Thanks for the post Karl.  There has been some development efforts by 
different Casper contributors started,

   https://github.com/wnew/hdl_devel

There are a couple active development branches I lost track which one is 
the most active (github fork view will some info).

Regards,
Chris

[myhdl-list] CASPER/UC Berkley is considering MyHDL

[Karl K. <kk...@be...>]

Dear all,

I thought this may be interesting for this list:

https://casper.berkeley.edu/wiki/MyHDL_toolflow

Enjoy,
Karl

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Tom D. <td...@di...>]

On 03/12/2012 09:23 PM, Christopher Felton wrote:
> It is completely an individuals right to branch/start a new project.
> This is reasonable and happens frequently in the open-source world.  But
> I think it is rude to post to the branched project advertising, "look at
> my project".

While I was not offended by an off topic posting, clearly it is not 
appropriate to post about something other than MyHDL on the MyHDL 
mailing list.

If I am interested in other projects, it is not to hard to let google 
find them for me.

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Christopher F. <chr...@gm...>]

On 3/12/12 5:24 PM, Sébastien Bourdeauducq wrote:
> On 03/12/2012 10:44 PM, Jan Decaluwe wrote:
>> As for a Migen/MyHDL merger, stop insulting our intelligence here,
>> we are engineers. It is your good right to think the event-driven
>> paradigm is the wrong choice. But of course you and I know damn
>> well that the paradigm choice is the fundamental design decision
>> behind an HDL. If you make a fundamentally different decision,
>> than*that*  is the reason why a "merge" is not possible, not
>> our intransigence.
>
> Oh. You lack imagination.
>

Your rhetoric doesn't match your actions.

Regards,
Chris

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Christopher F. <chr...@gm...>]

On 3/12/12 8:07 PM, Bob Cunningham wrote:
> On 03/12/2012 02:53 PM, Jan Decaluwe wrote:
>> On 03/12/2012 10:23 PM, Thomas Heller wrote:
>>> Am 12.03.2012 16:10, schrieb David Greenberg:
>>>> I like hearing about progress in the Python HDL front, whomever is
>>>> doing it. I don't think it makes sense to fracture these already tiny
>>>> communities.
>>> +1 from me too.
>>>
>>> Thomas
>>>
>> What do you both mean? Obviously Migen "fractures"
>> the community. Also, obviously they think they are making
>> progress. Do you want to hear about it or not?
>
>    From my perspective as an HDL newbie (but a 30+ year engineering veteran otherwise), major feature development in MyHDL appears to have stalled, and Migen provides important capabilities MyHDL either lacks or can implement only with cumbersome and fragile kluges or work-arounds.  (At least, that's what they look like to me, with my newbie eyes and brain.)
>

There are some reasons for this.  One, not many people are willing or 
able to contribute.  Two, things happen; people have babies (no sleep I 
get) and other events happen in peoples lives that can stall a project. 
  MyHDL has no intent of stopping (sorry if I am speaking for others).

I believe MyHDL would be more than happy to have people contribute. 
Sebastien's case is well documented in this mailing list.  I don't think 
it was an unfair handling.

It is very easy for outsiders to come and ask for new features (there is 
a similar thread on scipy-dev).  To use a project but not to give back 
and constantly ask for the latest buzz word feature, it can be taxing on 
the developers.  I am guilty of this as well, I have used MyHDL 
extensively and I haven't given back a whole lot.

I would like to discuss these "fragile kluges" or work arounds some 
more.  The best I recall (I haven't reread the mailing-list) there are 
enhancements people would like but no "fragile" kludge.

> MyHDL is more powerful overall, but Migen has attacked some specific problems is was designed to solve.  Problems, IIRC, that were prompted by perceived weaknesses in MyHDL.  As I understand it, Migen started as a rejected patch to MyHDL that was forced to find a life of its own.
>
The rejected patch has been discussed.  The idea wasn't rejected but the 
contempt of the process that had been established.  It isn't about a 
rejected patch it is about philosophical differences.

Constructive conversations about the process could be useful but no more 
about the rejected *broken* patch.  I think the process is fair, 
efficient, and required to make a successful project.

> I believe Sébastien continues to post here not to diminish MyHDL or its use in any way, but instead to show at least one way to more easily do things that are difficult in MyHDL.  If you look at his many non-Migen posts, you will see Sébastien has proven himself to be a very capable contributor to this list.
>

Sorry but I totally disagree.  Again, look back to the old posts.  He is 
not interested in the technical discussions as he tries to claim.  As 
you state, you have 30+ years as an Engineer.  Technical conversations 
can be long and in depth and don't end with one party exclaiming "you 
are just ...".

> My personal hope is that MyHDL and Migen will evolve toward one another, and eventually find ways to inter-operate, share features, or even merge capabilities.  I fully expect MyHDL may one day make Migen obsolete, but that day does not seem to be coming any time soon.
>

This is where I get confused.  Why is the burden on the MyHDL developers 
(Jan) to add the features and have the quality that people are use to 
with this project.  What is it about the development process that people 
object with that they would rather see a separate project created?

> Until the parties involved agree to work together toward shared goals, it may be best for Migen to start its own list.  When Sébastien gets his list going, he should be permitted to post sign-up instructions here.
>
> However, I hope a separate list won't be necessary:  When Sébastien has referred to his own Migen posts in other forums (such as MilkyMist), he has referred people to *this* *list*.  If anything, he has actively worked to increase MyHDL awareness, not to diminish it, or compete with it, or fracture it.

 From this side it just doesn't seem like that.  Some links to these 
conversations ... seeing is believing?

I don't see how responding to a question on the MyHDL mailing-list with 
"you should checkout migen" before any other responses is not 
deliberate: fracturing, diminishing, and competing.

>
> To clear the air, perhaps we could have a Migen-MyHDL shoot-out, where Sébastien posts some of what Migen does best, and the MyHDL pros can show us how best to do it in MyHDL.  The posts should be in the form of modules that can be integrated into other projects (MyHDL or Verilog or VHDL) for testing and comparison.  I know it would prove to be extremely educational for me, and may serve us all to better understand the underlying issues.
>

Who has the time.  And what does it prove, I simply have the opinion 
that it is rude to advertise and self promote on a project you branched 
from.

This is where this sucks, if Migen decided to branch for whatever 
reason, I don't care.  It is their right to try something different, do 
it their way.  Nothing wrong with branching and starting a new project. 
  I wish them the best, go conquer the world.

But I don't think the projects have similar goals.  And instead of 
making things personal and dragging this out it is best Migen goes on 
its own and stops exploiting this group.  It might not be fair for me to 
make such a statement, Jan has built this project/group and others have 
contributed as well, but that is my opinion.

> Sébastien/Migen has to be doing something right: It got Jan back on this list!  Yay!!!

You don't realize it but you are being a complete *ASS* with that statement.

>
>
> -BobC
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Christopher F. <chr...@gm...>]

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 4:23 PM, Thomas Heller <th...@ct...> wrote:
 > Am 12.03.2012 16:10, schrieb David Greenberg:
 >> I like hearing about progress in the Python HDL front, whomever is
 >> doing it. I don't think it makes sense to fracture these already tiny
 >> communities.
 >
 > +1 from me too.
 >
 > Thomas

I am baffled by these comments.  Not that I disagree; in fact I totally 
agree.  I hate to see the community fractured!  But why I am baffled is 
that there were no *voiced* objections a couple months ago when the 
fraction was occurring.

I think Jan D. has done a tremendous job putting together MyHDL and has 
setup very fair and reasonable directions for proposing enhancements and 
submitting patches.  Sebastien decided he did not want to be part of a 
community that has modeled group development after other successful 
projects, e.g. Python itself.

It is completely an individuals right to branch/start a new project. 
This is reasonable and happens frequently in the open-source world.  But 
I think it is rude to post to the branched project advertising, "look at 
my project".

Regards,
Chris

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Christopher F. <chr...@gm...>]

On 3/12/12 9:44 AM, Sébastien Bourdeauducq wrote:
> On 03/12/2012 03:42 PM, Christopher Felton wrote:
>> Sure, there are many things "closely" related.  If Mentor or Cadence
>> were advertising their latest offerings here, I don't think anyone would
>> object to calling it spam.
>
> This software is just commercial and proprietary offerings about which
> you have no way to discuss. Migen is an open source project. This makes
> a lot of difference to me.

Other open-source projects I am familiar with don't post releases 
announcements to the other groups.   Or offer "their" tools as solutions 
to technical questions / discussions.

The python-scientific dev group doesn't post to octave dev.  The scilab 
dev doesn't post to the scientific-python, etc.  Even though, these 
groups have similar initiatives; they want to proliferate the 
open-source scientific/numerical computing options.  They don't self 
promote on each others "communication channels".

>> So yes, it is spam it has nothing to do with MyHDL.  It is different if
>> projects that MyHDL interfaces/uses (Icarus, Python, pypy, etc) or
>> projects that build off MyHDL post releases.  This is not the case, you
>> are simply exploiting this group for your own self interest.
>
> ...which is, in this case, discussing and building the best open source
> Python-based hardware description language and tools. I won't go after
> you if you "spam" our communication channels about the latest MyHDL
> features; in fact, if this brings about fruitful technical discussion,
> it would be welcome. I'd also be welcoming a Migen/MyHDL merger (no need
> to duplicate efforts) - but you rejected even the most simple patches
> from me - not my problem.
>
> Sébastien
>

If the simplest of patches don't work they should be rejected.  You keep 
stating that it was simple but overlook the fact that you couldn't get 
it correct.

I don't believe you are sincerely interested in "fruitful" technical 
discussions.  The past discussions you have shied away from and/or 
resorted to name calling or some other off hand remark to avoid the 
objective technical discussions.

Chris

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Bob C. <fl...@gm...>]

On 03/12/2012 02:53 PM, Jan Decaluwe wrote:
> On 03/12/2012 10:23 PM, Thomas Heller wrote:
>> Am 12.03.2012 16:10, schrieb David Greenberg:
>>> I like hearing about progress in the Python HDL front, whomever is
>>> doing it. I don't think it makes sense to fracture these already tiny
>>> communities.
>> +1 from me too.
>>
>> Thomas
>>
> What do you both mean? Obviously Migen "fractures"
> the community. Also, obviously they think they are making
> progress. Do you want to hear about it or not?

 From my perspective as an HDL newbie (but a 30+ year engineering veteran otherwise), major feature development in MyHDL appears to have stalled, and Migen provides important capabilities MyHDL either lacks or can implement only with cumbersome and fragile kluges or work-arounds.  (At least, that's what they look like to me, with my newbie eyes and brain.)

MyHDL is more powerful overall, but Migen has attacked some specific problems is was designed to solve.  Problems, IIRC, that were prompted by perceived weaknesses in MyHDL.  As I understand it, Migen started as a rejected patch to MyHDL that was forced to find a life of its own.

I believe Sébastien continues to post here not to diminish MyHDL or its use in any way, but instead to show at least one way to more easily do things that are difficult in MyHDL.  If you look at his many non-Migen posts, you will see Sébastien has proven himself to be a very capable contributor to this list.

My personal hope is that MyHDL and Migen will evolve toward one another, and eventually find ways to inter-operate, share features, or even merge capabilities.  I fully expect MyHDL may one day make Migen obsolete, but that day does not seem to be coming any time soon.

Until the parties involved agree to work together toward shared goals, it may be best for Migen to start its own list.  When Sébastien gets his list going, he should be permitted to post sign-up instructions here.

However, I hope a separate list won't be necessary:  When Sébastien has referred to his own Migen posts in other forums (such as MilkyMist), he has referred people to *this* *list*.  If anything, he has actively worked to increase MyHDL awareness, not to diminish it, or compete with it, or fracture it.

To clear the air, perhaps we could have a Migen-MyHDL shoot-out, where Sébastien posts some of what Migen does best, and the MyHDL pros can show us how best to do it in MyHDL.  The posts should be in the form of modules that can be integrated into other projects (MyHDL or Verilog or VHDL) for testing and comparison.  I know it would prove to be extremely educational for me, and may serve us all to better understand the underlying issues.

Sébastien/Migen has to be doing something right: It got Jan back on this list!  Yay!!!


-BobC

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Sébastien B. <seb...@mi...>]

On 03/12/2012 10:44 PM, Jan Decaluwe wrote:
> As for a Migen/MyHDL merger, stop insulting our intelligence here,
> we are engineers. It is your good right to think the event-driven
> paradigm is the wrong choice. But of course you and I know damn
> well that the paradigm choice is the fundamental design decision
> behind an HDL. If you make a fundamentally different decision,
> than*that*  is the reason why a "merge" is not possible, not
> our intransigence.

Oh. You lack imagination.

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Jan D. <ja...@ja...>]

On 03/12/2012 03:44 PM, Sébastien Bourdeauducq wrote:

> features; in fact, if this brings about fruitful technical discussion,
> it would be welcome. I'd also be welcoming a Migen/MyHDL merger (no need
> to duplicate efforts) - but you rejected even the most simple patches
> from me - not my problem.

For the record: It was me who rejected those patches, not Chris.

I did what every reasonable project manager, including you I trust,
did. When the patches break the unit tests, they are rejected. So
stop blaming others for your problems please.

If you had simply followed the well-documented and reasonable
guidelines for patch submission, this would never had happened.
Again, your problem only.

As for a Migen/MyHDL merger, stop insulting our intelligence here,
we are engineers. It is your good right to think the event-driven
paradigm is the wrong choice. But of course you and I know damn
well that the paradigm choice is the fundamental design decision
behind an HDL. If you make a fundamentally different decision,
than *that* is the reason why a "merge" is not possible, not
our intransigence.

What Migen shows, is that you didn't like MyHDL's fundamental
design concept in the first place, which is your good right
and a very good reason for you to be elsewhere.

Jan

-- 
Jan Decaluwe - Resources bvba - http://www.jandecaluwe.com
     Python as a HDL: http://www.myhdl.org
     VHDL development, the modern way: http://www.sigasi.com
     World-class digital design: http://www.easics.com

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[David G. <dsg...@gm...>]

My meaning is that I'd prefer to be see announcements all over the
Python/HDL landscape everywhere, rather than requiring me to sign up
to each low-traffic mailing list separately. Even if now is not the
time to merge MyHDL and Migen, perhaps next year (or the year after)
is, and it's a good thing to keep discussion and ideas flowing between
these 2 communities.

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Jan Decaluwe <ja...@ja...> wrote:
> On 03/12/2012 10:23 PM, Thomas Heller wrote:
>> Am 12.03.2012 16:10, schrieb David Greenberg:
>>> I like hearing about progress in the Python HDL front, whomever is
>>> doing it. I don't think it makes sense to fracture these already tiny
>>> communities.
>>
>> +1 from me too.
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>
> What do you both mean? Obviously Migen "fractures"
> the community. Also, obviously they think they are making
> progress. Do you want to hear about it or not?
>
> --
> Jan Decaluwe - Resources bvba - http://www.jandecaluwe.com
>     Python as a HDL: http://www.myhdl.org
>     VHDL development, the modern way: http://www.sigasi.com
>     World-class digital design: http://www.easics.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Jan D. <ja...@ja...>]

On 03/12/2012 10:23 PM, Thomas Heller wrote:
> Am 12.03.2012 16:10, schrieb David Greenberg:
>> I like hearing about progress in the Python HDL front, whomever is
>> doing it. I don't think it makes sense to fracture these already tiny
>> communities.
>
> +1 from me too.
>
> Thomas
>

What do you both mean? Obviously Migen "fractures"
the community. Also, obviously they think they are making
progress. Do you want to hear about it or not?

-- 
Jan Decaluwe - Resources bvba - http://www.jandecaluwe.com
     Python as a HDL: http://www.myhdl.org
     VHDL development, the modern way: http://www.sigasi.com
     World-class digital design: http://www.easics.com

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Thomas H. <th...@ct...>]

Am 12.03.2012 16:10, schrieb David Greenberg:
> I like hearing about progress in the Python HDL front, whomever is
> doing it. I don't think it makes sense to fracture these already tiny
> communities.

+1 from me too.

Thomas

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[David G. <dsg...@gm...>]

I like hearing about progress in the Python HDL front, whomever is
doing it. I don't think it makes sense to fracture these already tiny
communities.

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Sébastien Bourdeauducq
<seb...@mi...> wrote:
> On 03/12/2012 03:42 PM, Christopher Felton wrote:
>> Sure, there are many things "closely" related.  If Mentor or Cadence
>> were advertising their latest offerings here, I don't think anyone would
>> object to calling it spam.
>
> This software is just commercial and proprietary offerings about which
> you have no way to discuss. Migen is an open source project. This makes
> a lot of difference to me.
>
>> So yes, it is spam it has nothing to do with MyHDL.  It is different if
>> projects that MyHDL interfaces/uses (Icarus, Python, pypy, etc) or
>> projects that build off MyHDL post releases.  This is not the case, you
>> are simply exploiting this group for your own self interest.
>
> ...which is, in this case, discussing and building the best open source
> Python-based hardware description language and tools. I won't go after
> you if you "spam" our communication channels about the latest MyHDL
> features; in fact, if this brings about fruitful technical discussion,
> it would be welcome. I'd also be welcoming a Migen/MyHDL merger (no need
> to duplicate efforts) - but you rejected even the most simple patches
> from me - not my problem.
>
> Sébastien
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3,
> Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now!
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Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Sébastien B. <seb...@mi...>]

On 03/12/2012 03:42 PM, Christopher Felton wrote:
> Sure, there are many things "closely" related.  If Mentor or Cadence
> were advertising their latest offerings here, I don't think anyone would
> object to calling it spam.

This software is just commercial and proprietary offerings about which 
you have no way to discuss. Migen is an open source project. This makes 
a lot of difference to me.

> So yes, it is spam it has nothing to do with MyHDL.  It is different if
> projects that MyHDL interfaces/uses (Icarus, Python, pypy, etc) or
> projects that build off MyHDL post releases.  This is not the case, you
> are simply exploiting this group for your own self interest.

...which is, in this case, discussing and building the best open source 
Python-based hardware description language and tools. I won't go after 
you if you "spam" our communication channels about the latest MyHDL 
features; in fact, if this brings about fruitful technical discussion, 
it would be welcome. I'd also be welcoming a Migen/MyHDL merger (no need 
to duplicate efforts) - but you rejected even the most simple patches 
from me - not my problem.

Sébastien

Re: [myhdl-list] Migen logic design toolbox - now with simulator

[Christopher F. <chr...@gm...>]

On 3/12/2012 9:05 AM, Sébastien Bourdeauducq wrote:
> On 03/12/2012 02:58 PM, Christopher Felton wrote:
>> Why do you spam this mailing list?
>
> I believe the topic is closely related (isn't it?), so this is not spam.
>

Sure, there are many things "closely" related.  If Mentor or Cadence 
were advertising their latest offerings here, I don't think anyone would 
object to calling it spam.

So yes, it is spam it has nothing to do with MyHDL.  It is different if 
projects that MyHDL interfaces/uses (Icarus, Python, pypy, etc) or 
projects that build off MyHDL post releases.  This is not the case, you 
are simply exploiting this group for your own self interest.

Regards,
Chris