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From: The_Micea <las...@ad...> - 2000-08-21 14:10:03
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Yes, I missed the meeting too. My cable modem decided to quit on me, that
why I have posted for a couple days. The java idea was simply an idea. I
have no problem doing it in c since that seems to be the consensous(probably
spelled wrong) . Anyways about parimeters. I do not know how you can
change them while the programs running. If you mean "arguements" then using
"cin >> " in c++ works.
#include <iostream.h>
int add (int x, int y) \\ These are the parimeters they just tell what kind
of value \\will be passed in.
{
return (x+y);
}
int main()
{
cout << "Please enter a number";
cin >> a;
cout << "Please enter a second number";
cin >> b;
c = add(a,b); \\ These are the arguements, they are the actual values
being \\passed into the program from the prompt.
cout << a << "plus" << b << "equals" << c;
return 0;
}
But if you were talking about parimeters let me know how to do it when you
find out.
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From: CyDust <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-21 05:49:33
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sorry i missed the meeting, i had to work. email me the important stuff that was discussed and what not. as for using java, i'd rather not, i dont like, even though i have no basis for hating, having never really used it, but it doesnt seem that powerful. c, c++, gtk, python, and others would, in my opinion, be much, much better. Right now im learning mainly c and what not, and im gonna try to take a c programming class in january to get some official training (at a community college, for free!, hopefully). also, question, does anyone know how to pass parimaters from the command line to a c program? i kinda need to know, anyways, thats my 2bits for now --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=319 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: CoolProgrammer <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-20 22:16:33
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You would have to do the prototypes differently in Java, anyway. It would be a pain, but it's not impossible. ~CoolProgrammer --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=318 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: Mentalspice <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-19 22:54:06
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you have to use a windows IRC client. M$ caht should have come with your box(start -> programs -> accessories -> internet toold -> Microsoft Chat [version numbers...like 2.5]). Just set the server to irc.openprojects.net, you nick to whatever you want it to be, and then set the room to #mentalunix . Just hit connect, and you can go. If hte meeting is at 7:00pm EST, that's in 3 minutes from where I am(I'm in est time). see you at the caht tonbight. --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=317 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: Mentalspice <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-19 22:51:10
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If i can remember correctly, Gtk+ can only be accesed using C. It can't function is C++ because of the way it works. Gtk-- was vreated to suppoirt Gtk in C++(Gtk-- is also confusing to use). Therefore, my logic was and still is that since Gtk can only be accesed using C(gtk.h), then java can't use the C stuff. --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=316 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: CoolProgrammer <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-19 22:06:49
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About the Gtk, WRONG!!! You can access native methods in Java, which are routines that are platform specific, with Java. These routines are loaded from libraries. In Windows, DLL's are used. I believe you can do the same in Linux with Java. However, that destroys the one advantage Java does have--platform independence. The hardware access can be solved by using the methods in the C libraries, but then you wouldn't be using pure Java. ~CoolProgrammer --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=315 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: operating_systems_man <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-19 12:41:04
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hey again i was wondering exactly how i join the chat is it irc or what ever i'll be in windows since my linux box isn't on the net yet ok thanks --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=314 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: Mentalspice <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-19 01:05:31
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Java is the worst possible language(well, I huess BASIC would be worse) to use for an installer. Here is why:
1. Speed. It's interpreted(sorta...evil VM), so it's slow.
2. Memoery usage. Java needs the program, the VM, and sopme other stuff(the supporting classes); so, it eats up RAM(and mentalunix is theory should be installable on almost any box). There is a way around this though(enabling java binary support in the kernel), but it's just as slow(you should enable another thing..i think it's foreign binary suppot, but it's probably not that lets you run java programs and more, but it's bigger). In the end, java needs to much ram
3. Graphics. AWT is crappy to say the least. Java can't access Gtk+ either(the gtk libraries are written in C). Plus, the graphics are slow.
4. Access rights / hardware access. Or rather, the lack of them.
I think that C, C++, or objective-C(my favorite) should be the language used for the installer. It's also easier for C/C++ stuff to talk to each other(CORBA). Since the installer is going to use a display back-end, having the objects talk to each other is really important. I've been thinking about XML, and i finally understand it's real purpose: error correction. You make your app only understand the elements you create, but use a dtd to let the xml parser make sure the document is vaild for you(which cuts development time by a lot). I'm nowhere near finishign the xml book i got, but ithas to go back tommorow, so i'm using my 250 bucks of quick cash(a two week job is a filing room) to buy a nice reference. The new Xforms, xsl, and xlink stuff is lookign ncie for xml too. libxml isn't all that great, so I'm waiting ot see when Skapeare's new xml parser is done(it is really nice...it introduces the new </> element..figure out what it does. It also feed the app the data like this:
xml_parse(file.xml);
if xml_valid = 1 then
{
read_xml(file.xml);
printf(xml_data\n);
it's ill-formed C...but i don't know that much C.
basically, it returns this(each newline is after a new read_xml()):
<menu>
<item>
This is my nice little item
</item>
</menu>
basicall, intead of feeding hte document to the app, it feads the element, then the text inside fo the element, then the end tag(aside from doing to other xml-stuff like validating and expanding entities).
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From: CoolProgrammer <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-18 22:15:14
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Java is a little too limited--it doesn't support file access unless it's signed digitally or downloaded and run as an application. In addition, Java supports no low-level hard drive access, which would be required to format a partition or make new partitions. ~CoolProgrammer --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=312 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: The_Micea <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-18 02:48:54
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anyone up for a learning exsperience in java? I think it would be cool to have an instalation program written purly in java, allowing people to download and install our linux directly off the net. If we made a very good one we could sell it to other linux companys like redhat and use the capital for our dist. and we could use the instalation for our dist to. just an idea. I just started learning Java, so it would be a good project to get good at java with. --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=311 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: Mentalspice <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-10 20:55:11
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all the libraries have to use cyber patrol now. So, the eff and andover are suing them. There aren't really offices. They just hire people who they think are cool. Most of them telecommute. They've only actually all met once. They usually all ahng out in #slashdot on openprojects or slashnet(but emmett says hte offical one is on openprojects because he got into an argument with a 16 year old op on slashnet). On the meeting: the official on can be o nthe 19th, but if anybody feels like showing up in #slashdot or #mentalunix between 9am and 4:30pm EST, then I'll probably be there(unless I'm eating or outside enjoying the air and gettign cancer from the sun). Just do a whois on unknown_lamer if you think I might be away(it will tell you). oh, and the irc server is: irc.openprojects.net I might get to ride with some slashdot people on the way to LUG meeting now. And, as roblimo said, BSD may be technically superior, but linux has a communtiy. There is no heiarchy. A 14 year old is as respected as a 50 year old. --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=310 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: CyDust <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-10 18:32:31
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cool, congrats, and NOT FAIR!! Well, that kinda connection could prove to be usefull, and a job at andover would be cool. Do u know if they have any offices in seattle? And who exactly uses cyberpatrol? the state? or is it required that everyone uses it? doesnt make much sence. and for the meeting on the 19th, i should be able to make it. i should know tommorow, and if i cant i'll post something on it. --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=309 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: Mentalspice <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-10 15:02:10
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I met roblimo last night. It was cool. he lives less than 10 minutes away. Timothy from /. lives even closer. thesync is about 30 minutes away. wow. I even won a free book(Linux Network Adminstrators Guide 2nd edition). There are lots of linux users around here. I might even get job out of it. I also got some un-release info. Andover.net won't be andover much longer. It will become the open source developers network. They are also lauunching newsforge(roblimo's baby). Freshmeat 2 will also come out. And...they are suign the state of michigan. Why? They made filtering manadatory. And guess what? They chose cyberpatrol! And guess what site cyber patrol blocks? freshmeat.net. It's under the full-frontal nudity section. So, for freshmeat2, they are going ot be doign a naked tux(it's sick). The eff is supporting them. it was a really enlightening 3 hours(7pm-10pm). I might even get a job for andover/osdn now! And, roblimo and timothy are going to be at all the calug meetings. This is cool. --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=308 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: Mentalspice <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-09 20:50:39
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Here is a paper on how to make UNIX not suck: http://www.helixcode.com/~miguel/bongo-bong.html One of the sections is on code reuse. If you read the mpkg spec, you probably noticed the part about mpkg using Yozilla's rendering engine. I'm guessing that is code reuse. It makes sense: mpkg will need to parse XML meta-data. So, instead of re-inventing the proverbial wheel, why not use an existing one? Sure, it introduces a dependeny, but with the way mpkg handles packages, it's no problem(don't need yozilla, but want to keep mpkg? rpm wouldn't let you do it. But mpkg will unistall everything except for the rendering engine...because both packages "own" it). Of course, I'm going to need loads of help on the spec. Especially on the command reference. And, can anybody give me there opinion on the package database? can anyone understand the basic concept? Does the database sound good? Does anybody not like it/wants to have it a different way? Of cours, nothing in the spec is set in stone. Just post your changes ot the club(or the mailing list). I still need help on creating the DTDs for mpkg, the installer, app config(mentalUNIX apps will have XMl configuration files, therfore, we need DTDs for configuration), and the mpkg/installer display stuff(kinda like XHTML, but for mpkg) --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=307 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: Mentalspice <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-08 23:26:32
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I'm so lucky. I got 5 karma, and then I click a story on slashdot. And, lo and behold, I have moderator access. But I only had 5 measily points. i should have posted more comments. --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=306 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: Mentalspice <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-08 19:57:43
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sounds good. Ok. 8pm EST, August 19th(on this side of the dateline). On irc.openprojects.org, channel #mentalunix . Sound good? I'm guesssing that it will be noon on friday or sunday in australia(are they a day ahead or behind?). Is that good for everyone. --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=305 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: The_Micea <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-08 19:29:05
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Somthings messed up with the bbs today. Well maybe the previous to copys went through but I dont know so heres on last time for good luck. 8pm eastern time, about 6pm west coast, about noon australia. ok? Welcome Jason --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=304 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: Clinton E. <men...@ya...> - 2000-08-08 14:34:33
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Here is the mpkg spec in it's entirety, undedited, unformated, uncensored. I suggest that everyone get the Rich Text or AbiWord verison, because they are hte only ones that look like it is supposed to(the html version comes close, but lacks formatting and fonts). Well, here is the 15K behemoth: The MentalUNIX Packaging System Specification Paper Revision 0 July 17, 2000 CE AUTHOR: Clinton Ebadi OVERVEIW The MentalUNIX packaging system will be an evolutionary step in Linux/UNIX packaging systems. Why merely an evolution of existing package managers and not a revolution? Simply put, it will only improve upon existing technologies, while offering a few simple, yet important new features. Until Now, you had very few choices in package managers for Linux; The Red Hat Package Manager(RPM), and the Debian Package Manager(DPKG). MentalUNIX will bring a third, and powerful competitor to the table: The MentalUNIX Packaging System, or MPKG for short. It will offer unparalleled ease of usage and an amazingly robust feature set, in a small, efficient piece of software. It will be free software, in both the "free beer" and "free speech" meanings of the word, and will naturally by protected by the GNU GPL. The MentalUNIX linux installer(MentalUNIX linWiz) will be based upon mpkg. MPKG will be available as a command line tool, and ncurses based console-GUI, and a Gtk+ based X GUI. This document will outline all of the features of the MentalUNIX Packaging System in detail(although not in the first few versions). COPYRIGHT This document and all subsequent revisions are (c)Copyright 2000 Clinton K. Ebadi and MentalUNIX. Distribution is governed by the GNU Documentation License(avaialbe at http://www.GNU.org). It may be freely redistributed, quoted, published and used as long as this copyright notice of present, and the document remains unchanged. FEATURES MPKG's will have many different features. The main features are: -The ability to track installed software via a package database -The ability to convert GNU autoconfigure and automake into the native mpkg configuration files -Package configuration through XML files -Source and Binary Packages(with source packages being the default format) -Scriptable package interfaces using javascript and XML -Complete Source code availability -Simple, easy to use, yet powerful interface These features will be outlined in further detail in different subsections. BASIC FEATURES The MentalUNIX Packaging System has many different features. Many of the features will be covered in this section(but not in very much detail yet). The basic features of mpkg(or any package manager) are the ability to install packages, manage packages, keep track of installed software on a computer system, and configure packages. Package installation in mpkg will be as simple as with rpm in auto mode(modes will be explained later). To install a package in auto mode, a user simply types: mpkg -Uvh --auto <package name> Regular(interactive) mode requires the user to answer a few questions to configure the package. The command-line syntax will be similar to the Red Hat Package manager(RPM), with extra mpkg only commands(--auto is an example), and deviations from RPM meanings(to make the arguments more intuitive). A Package database with descriptions of packages, package names, version information, and more will be stored to make maintaining packages simple. The database will be queried using: mpkg -q <package short name> A package short name is the name of the software(i.e. "After-Step"), instead of the package name(i.e. "After-Step-1.8.2-5mdk5"). The -q argument will simply print the package name/version information, or give the message "Package Not Installed" if the software is not present. Package database management will be covered in detail later(I could almost make this the man page ;-). Package configuration will be the strongest feature in mpkg. Instead of distributing precompiled binary packages, the preferred format will be source code packages. Binary packages would be allowed for special purposes(installing software on lower end computers, installers, etc.). MPKG will include a way to package source using only a source tar-ball and GNU auto-configure and auto-make scripts. The configure shell script will be used to generate configure.xml, and will generate the make.xml file for compilation. Packages will also have interface defined in interface.xml. The package can use the interface.xml file to execute javascript, load images, and to modify the configure.xml file. The interface *MUST* at the very minimum have a section for configuration. If the package creator does not decide to include the section, the configure.xml file will define the interface(but it would probably look nicer if it was created in interface.xml -- in addition, the configure.xml won't be able to include supporting text). Now that the basic features have been touched upon, a detailed explanation of each of them will now follow... MODES Earlier in the document, interactive and auto mode were touched upon, but not explained. To fully understand how revolutionary mpkg is, these "modes" must be understood fully. The auto-mode is nothing new to linux, since it is non-interactive. But the interactive mode opens up a whole new world in package management. Interactive mode allow the user to interactively select options for compile time. The interfaces can range from simple, one screen ugly web-like pages, to simple interactive wizards, all the way to extremely advanced XML/TCL/PHP/javascript-based graphical setup programs(Imagine the linux kernel xconfig program, run from the kernel source package). As you can probably tell, this is very exciting. ANY application will be able to be set up using mpkg(assuming the developer decided to write a mpkg interface/config.xml file). From a simply "hello world" program to the linux kernel and beyond. MentalUNIX linux will use it as it's only packaging system during development. But, auto mode is equally powerful. All programs will be required to contain a config.xml file(optionally generated from a GNU autoconfigure script) that specifies all the possible options, the defaults, and other required information(dependencies will be handles by depend.xml). In auto mode, the defaults are selected(except for things such as CPU type), and the package is compile(and then installed). It may seem simple at first, but what if it could recompile EVERY SINGLE LAST package on an entire system! Yes, that is what mpkg will be able to do. This increases the development time for mpkg, but it makes developing an entire linux distribution much simpler. Want to port to an alternate architecture? With rpm, you usually need a box using that architecture. With mpkg, you simply set the destination to the platform you want(say, PPC), and then it recompiles the entire system for that platform. If a package fails to compile(inline assembly, reliance on the endian structure), then you know exactly what packages failed. It won't just stop at the first failure. Of course, you would need the development tools capable of compiling for the target platform. The next two sections will explain in detail a small portion of these two modes(more will be added later as it is finalized). AUTO MODE In auto mode, mpkg acts just like any other package manager. You simply invoke the mpkg command you want: mpkg -Uh -vv --auto <package name> This will Upgrade the package, install it if it is not installed(The U command unconditionally upgrades, that is, it will upgrade the package even if it is not installed, but it will not install if the current package is newer). The 'h' option display hash marks as a status indicator, and 'vv' displays debugging information. This will install the package without loading the interactive interface. The config.xml will include the default option(s) to be enabled, and they will be used. But, if the package was already present, it will query the database for the options that are enabled, and attempt to use those(if they are not present, then whatever existing configuration that can be used is used). So, if vim was compiled to have an X interface, it would still have that interface. The MentalUNIX installer will use auto mode in for package installation. Many people may think that auto mode cannot allow any configuration of the package(aside from the pre-installed configuration). But, that is incorrect. Take this command: mpkg -Uh -vv --auto --opt-emacs_interface=yes TiMidity.mpkg This would install Timidity++ using auto mode. But notice the 'opt' option. This allows the user to manipulate the values in the config.xml file. By invoking '--opt-variable_name=value', the user gains the ability to set any variable in the package. But what about multiple options? well it's as easy as typing '--opt-variable_name=value--variable_two=value_2'. Simply, eh? Not very simple to parse, but ease of use is the most important part of mpkg! Even if it means adding a few extra weeks to development time, or having the software become slightly larger. Mpkg will not be bloat-ware, but it will be feature rich. Next up is the interactive mode. INTERACTIVE MODE Auto mode would make mpkg a decent package manager in it's own right, but mpkg isn't just going to be decent. It is going to be revolutionary. There are already too many competing package managers out there, so there is no reason to add yet another mediocre package manager. To a newbie, installing software from a tar file is confusing(even though it is truly simple). RPM files may not be optimized for their computer, resulting in a negative experience with linux. Mpkg will include all packages as configurable source code packages(although binary packages will be allowed for situations when using source is not possible or not attractive). The interfaces to these packages can range from simple(one page interfaces generated from the config.xml file), to beautiful wizards. It will be a way to build installer with a minimum of knowledge(XML is all that is required). Using special mpkg DTDs, with configuration and interface syntax(buttons, images, text fields, paragraphs, etc), mpkg will allow anybody with a text editor(you will be assimilated...resistance to emacs is futile) to create amazing installers. In fact, using TCL, php, and/or javascript, complex applications may be created(think the linux kernel xconfig program). These interfaces will be display-agnostic, as will mpkg. Mpkg will communicate with a display back-end that will handle the real graphics work. This will allow the creation of console and X based interfaces much easier. How will mpkg implement a complex XML parsing engine, with support for TCL, php, and javascript? One word: yozilla. The gecko/bender rendering engine will support all of these technologies(except for php, which is normally processed server-side, but will be implemented using a plug-in). Of course, yozilla will use libxml. The protocol over which they will communicate has not been decided, although gecko/bender will be a shared object library(allowing mpkg to be dynamically linked to it). Defining an interface is simple. Here is a skeleton interface.xml file: [xml header stuff, xml tag, call to DTD, etc] <var> <!-- assorted variables --> <include config.xml \> <!-- We have access to all of the data in config.xml --> </var> <interface> <!-- We now define the interface --> <page=0> <!-- The first page, or page 0 --> <object type=button kind=shadow.text text="test button" pos=64,64 \> <!-- Now we have a shadow button, at x=64 y=64 --> <object type=button kind=bevel.image img-type=xpm src=b_img.xpm height=50 width=150 pos=100,100 \> <!-- Now we have a beveled image button. The button is 4 or so pixels bigger than the image by default, but a thicker border can be defined...there is an image.text button too --> </page> <!-- Page 0 is over --> </interface> <!-- No more interface --> </xml> Of course, the example was poorly formed, and no xml interpreter would process it. But, I hope that you get the general idea. The ability to define these interface allows a programmer to design an installer for their program in less than a day(sometimes in under a half-hour). For a packaging system, mpkg may look like it has too much power, and will be bloat-ware. But, with the apparent lack of any good install tools for linux(this includes Zenguin...which has apparently died). And, mpkg itself will be very small, and will use the gecko/bender rendering engine. Just imagine a future where package installation and unistallation is easier and more graphical under linux than any other Operating System. THE PACKAGE DATABASE !NOT FINALIZED! HAS NOT BEEN REVEIWED BY OTHERS Without a package database, what is the point of a package manager? The answer is, there is no point! That is why mpkg provides a package database. One of the nice things about the database is that it will operate on the principle of package ownership. Every file on a system must be owned by a package. If two or more packages need a file, say foo.so, then all the packages 'own' it. This way, when a package is un-installed, instead of failing, a warning message is issued that other packages share the ownership of foo.so, and it will not be removed. So, if you decided to un-install yozilla, but wanted to keep mpkg, bender.so(The rendering engine) won't be removed, but the rest of the program will be. So, instead of having all or nothing, you can keep the parts of the packages that you don't need, but other programs need. The database will either be served by an SQL server(unlikely) or using a flat XML database file(parsed by gecko/bender and then interpreted by a database module of mpkg). The database will also contain programs not in mpkg format. How? Mpkg will ship with a database of known existing programs, and common locations where they can be found. A daemon will keep track of whatever happens to important directories(for example, /usr and /lib). Whenever a binary is added, its file name will be checked against the database to see if it is known. If it is, mpkgd(the mpkg daemon) will add the new program to the mpkg database. More on the database will be published as it is finalized. /OPT/MPKG/<PACKAGE NAME> Why is a directory name the section header? Simple, it's another reason why mpkg is revolutionary(err...will be). After a package is installed, a directory for it will be created under 'opt/mpkg'. This special directory will contain symlinks to all of the programs files. All of them. Libraries, documentation, binaries, source code, etc. It may seem simple, but it allows an administrator to quickly see what files a package 'own', without invoking mpkg. Since querying a package in the database for the files it owns can be time and resource consuming(especially for large databases), this is a simpler way. This also provide pseudo-centralization. Programs are still scattered into different directories(great for system-wide centralization, but not good when you need a program all in one place), but you can access all of the programs files from one place. More will be added as it is finalized. COMMAND LINE OPTIONS Argh! I didn't have time / was too lazy to put this section is. Well, here are a few. Can somebody, anybody, everybody get the...errrr....help with this part of the spec? -U Upgrade / install if not installed -i Install. Will fail if program is already present. --auto Auto mode --opt-var_name=value / --opt-var_one=value;var_two=value;etc Pass an option to the config.xml file in auto mode. More will come when people start helping. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ |
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From: Mentalspice <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-08 14:00:33
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I'm uploading a partial mpkg spec right now to sourceforge. I've got it in plaintext, abiword, latex, and xhtml this time. I'm guessing it's about 30 or 40% done. Right now it's 6 pages(with one sentence on the 7th page). I'm posting the plaintext version to the mailing list. The plaintext version doesn't look very nice(no Line feeds at the ends of the lines...), so get the html version. I've even been nice enough to tar/gzip all of the different formats together(maybe somebody will need all of them?). I'm going to need lots of help with the spec. Please mail/post any comment, additions, changes, etc. --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=303 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: Mentalspice <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-08 13:56:27
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It can't be this weekend. I'm going to be gone. What time during a weekend though? --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=302 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: linuxdevr <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-08 11:43:26
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Hi guys. I'm Jason Miller. I live in Denver (Mountain time) and I just wanted to drop my opinion about a meeting. I think we can do it any time but I agree that it should be on the weekend. How about later in the evening so everyone can make it? --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=301 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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From: Clinton E. <men...@ya...> - 2000-08-07 14:05:19
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We have two new people on the mailing list now. Lawrie McNair(cab...@op...) Mike Wilson(SSJ...@ho...) That brings us to 11 subscribers(and one archiver bot). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ |
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From: Lawrie M. <em...@op...> - 2000-08-05 02:57:05
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hi everyone i was wonder if anyone could describe to me howto setup a = POP3 mail server on ym home network that i will use to send these = messages and all that crap and maybe give other (friends) an email = adress |
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From: Lawrie M. <em...@op...> - 2000-08-05 02:35:48
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does anyone have any ideas on how long it will be before we start = programming it and all that and allso what happened to the guy that = asked about us making the distrib for his company or what ever it was |
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From: The_Micea <clu...@ya...> - 2000-08-05 01:45:54
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I personally dont like either, they are to windowish and non-inovative. But I prefer Gnome. --------------------------------------------- DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! --------------------------------------------- You have chosen to receive messages from "mentalunix" by email. Reply to this message: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=mentalunix&sid=1600006580&mid=300 Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix/config/change_mb_list Return to "mentalunix": http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/mentalunix ---------------------------------------------- Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=munix_devr&.groupID=mentalunix&.groupType=&.code=IVyJGMuRxG |
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