Thread: [Matplotlib-users] Why is pip not mentioned in the Installation Documentation?

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One of the reasons (historically) is that the build scripts predate 
setuptools and ships copies of dependencies rather than using 
easy_install or pip to install them.  There is an open PR to address 
this here:

https://github.com/matplotlib/matplotlib/pull/1454

But you do make a good point that `pip` should be mentioned in the docs 
as part of that change.

Mike

On 11/16/2012 05:54 AM, Mathew Topper wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm interested to know why the pip package manager is not more widely 
> supported for installation of python packages like matplotlib? 
> Matplotlib seems to be particularly slowly updated in the Fedora 
> repositories, for example, so I often find that a source installation 
> is necessary. I know this isn't especially difficult for the 
> experienced user, but surely using something like pip would make this 
> process for accessible for all users of python packages, particularly 
> those that do not receive much attention from the big distribution 
> maintainers? Yet, pip doesn't get a mention on the installation 
> documentation of matplotlib or many other python packs.
>
> I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this matter.
>
> Many Thanks,
>
> Mat
> -- 
> Dr. Mathew Topper
> Institute for Energy Systems
> School of Engineering
> The University of Edinburgh
> Faraday Building
> The King's Buildings
> Edinburgh EH9 3JL
> Tel: +44 (0)131 650 5570
> School fax: +44 (0)131 650 6554
> mat...@ed... <mailto:mat...@ed...>
> http://www.see.ed.ac.uk <http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/>
>
>
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
>
>
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Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

In article <50A...@ed...>,
 Mathew Topper <mat...@ed...> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm interested to know why the pip package manager is not more widely 
> supported for installation of python packages like matplotlib? 
> Matplotlib seems to be particularly slowly updated in the Fedora 
> repositories, for example, so I often find that a source installation is 
> necessary. I know this isn't especially difficult for the experienced 
> user, but surely using something like pip would make this process for 
> accessible for all users of python packages, particularly those that do 
> not receive much attention from the big distribution maintainers? Yet, 
> pip doesn't get a mention on the installation documentation of 
> matplotlib or many other python packs.
> 
> I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this matter.

Unfortunately pip cannot install binaries, so any user that tried to 
install matplotlib using pip would have to have a C compiler.

Unfortunately many users do not have a compiler on MacOS and Windows.

In addition, matplotlib has some important dependencies that may not be 
available on all systems. MacOS now includes all necessary libraries. I 
don't think that is true for most flavors linux (though there is 
probably an easy way to get all missing packages). I have no idea about 
Windows.

I agree pip should be mentioned, but I don't see it as a viable 
mainstream means of installing matplotlib.

(Does it even work with matplotlib? I've never tried it.)

-- Russell

On Nov 16, 2012, at 2:25PM, Russell E. Owen wrote:

> In article <50A...@ed...>,
> Mathew Topper <mat...@ed...> wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I'm interested to know why the pip package manager is not more widely 
>> supported for installation of python packages like matplotlib? 
>> Matplotlib seems to be particularly slowly updated in the Fedora 
>> repositories, for example, so I often find that a source installation is 
>> necessary. I know this isn't especially difficult for the experienced 
>> user, but surely using something like pip would make this process for 
>> accessible for all users of python packages, particularly those that do 
>> not receive much attention from the big distribution maintainers? Yet, 
>> pip doesn't get a mention on the installation documentation of 
>> matplotlib or many other python packs.
>> 
>> I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this matter.
> 
> Unfortunately pip cannot install binaries, so any user that tried to 
> install matplotlib using pip would have to have a C compiler.
> 
> Unfortunately many users do not have a compiler on MacOS and Windows.
> 
> In addition, matplotlib has some important dependencies that may not be 
> available on all systems. MacOS now includes all necessary libraries. I 
> don't think that is true for most flavors linux (though there is 
> probably an easy way to get all missing packages). I have no idea about 
> Windows.
> 
> I agree pip should be mentioned, but I don't see it as a viable 
> mainstream means of installing matplotlib.
> 
> (Does it even work with matplotlib? I've never tried it.)
> 
> -- Russell

pip is the only method I have used in my Linux work.

-Sterling

> 
> 
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Mathew Topper wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm interested to know why the pip package manager is not more widely
> supported for installation of python packages like matplotlib?
> Matplotlib seems to be particularly slowly updated in the Fedora
> repositories, for example, so I often find that a source installation is
> necessary. I know this isn't especially difficult for the experienced
> user, but surely using something like pip would make this process for
> accessible for all users of python packages, particularly those that do
> not receive much attention from the big distribution maintainers? Yet,
> pip doesn't get a mention on the installation documentation of
> matplotlib or many other python packs.
> 
> I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this matter.
> 
> Many Thanks,
> 
> Mat

It is dangerous to use pip on fedora, it may result in your next attempt to 
update the system failing horribly.

If you use it, try to install with --user.  Unfortunately, this often won't work 
because pip will then complain when attempting to remove a system version of 
some dep.

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

The problem is that pip packages something as a dir where easy_install
packages as a file, or vice-versa.  Then when you update, cpio will fail
(doesn't know how to replace a dir with a file, or vice-versa).  Next, the
entire installation will abort!!!!  Leaving you with a mess.

I understand it's possible to manually then fix this mess using (some
obscure) yum incantations, but I don't recall what.  Usually at this point
I wipe the disc.

This has happened to me multiple times on multiple machines, and was
discussed at some length on fedora-dev list maybe 1 year ago.  The basic
message was that I shouldn't use pip to install into the system dirs.  But
even using pip --user is not answer, because pip will see that e.g.,
matplotlib wants a newer version of pytz, and will attempt to remove the
system pytz (and fail and abort).

The only reliable approach is virtualenv.  Not really very satisfactory.

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:02 AM, Mathew Topper <mat...@ed...>wrote:

>  Hi Neal,
>
> Is that due to conflicting package versions? I haven't suffered any
> particular issues like this yet, but it seems to me that pip would be
> improved if it interacted better with the environment it was in. How hard
> would it be to get pip to interact with yum and apt, for instance, to get
> valid binaries and/or devel files?
>
> I can't help thinking that Latex packaging is very similar, in that linux
> distributions often struggle to keep up, which I guess is why TexLive
> started.
>
> And then to complicate matters further, our sys admin said he didn't like
> pip as he would rather generate RPMs, in order that there is not a lot of
> work to do for system rebuilds in our labs. I found pypi2rpm, but that
> looks pretty bleeding edge and I think I'm getting out of my depth as a
> humble scientist.
>
> Mat
>
> On 19/11/12 12:59, Neal Becker wrote:
>
> Mathew Topper wrote:
>
>
>  Hi,
>
> I'm interested to know why the pip package manager is not more widely
> supported for installation of python packages like matplotlib?
> Matplotlib seems to be particularly slowly updated in the Fedora
> repositories, for example, so I often find that a source installation is
> necessary. I know this isn't especially difficult for the experienced
> user, but surely using something like pip would make this process for
> accessible for all users of python packages, particularly those that do
> not receive much attention from the big distribution maintainers? Yet,
> pip doesn't get a mention on the installation documentation of
> matplotlib or many other python packs.
>
> I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this matter.
>
> Many Thanks,
>
> Mat
>
>  It is dangerous to use pip on fedora, it may result in your next attempt to
> update the system failing horribly.
>
> If you use it, try to install with --user.  Unfortunately, this often won't work
> because pip will then complain when attempting to remove a system version of
> some dep.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Monitor your physical, virtual and cloud infrastructure from a single
> web console. Get in-depth insight into apps, servers, databases, vmware,
> SAP, cloud infrastructure, etc. Download 30-day Free Trial.
> Pricing starts from $795 for 25 servers or applications!http://p.sf.net/sfu/zoho_dev2dev_nov
> _______________________________________________
> Matplotlib-users mailing lis...@li...://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users
>
>
> --
> Dr. Mathew Topper
> Institute for Energy Systems
> School of Engineering
> The University of Edinburgh
> Faraday Building
> The King’s Buildings
> Edinburgh EH9 3JL
> Tel: +44 (0)131 650 5570
> School fax: +44 (0)131 650 6554
> mat...@ed...
> http://www.see.ed.ac.uk
>
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
>
>

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

python setup.py install won't cause that issue.

Also, easy_install doesn't cause the same issue.  OTOH, I'm not sure what
easy_install does in the case of deps.  If you use pip install --user it
will try (and fail) to remove old versions of deps from system.  I don't
know what easy_install does in this case.

I have also had issues where python setup.py install will install
everything into /usr/lib, while fedora packaging will try to install
arch-dep parts under e.g., /usr/lib64.  I have many times wound up with 2
versions of things that way.

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 7:04 AM, Mathew Topper <mat...@ed...>wrote:

>  Neal, thanks for the warning. I found the thread of your discussion here
> actually:
>
> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-February/162496.html
>
> It's very interesting. My feeling would be that a PyPI fedora repository
> would make the most sense - much like the current Fedora TexLive2012
> testing repository - but obviously this is no small job.
>
> "python setup.py install" doesn't have similar issues, I take it?
>
> Mat
>
>
> On 20/11/12 11:40, Neal Becker wrote:
>
> The problem is that pip packages something as a dir where easy_install
> packages as a file, or vice-versa.  Then when you update, cpio will fail
> (doesn't know how to replace a dir with a file, or vice-versa).  Next, the
> entire installation will abort!!!!  Leaving you with a mess.
>
>  I understand it's possible to manually then fix this mess using (some
> obscure) yum incantations, but I don't recall what.  Usually at this point
> I wipe the disc.
>
>  This has happened to me multiple times on multiple machines, and was
> discussed at some length on fedora-dev list maybe 1 year ago.  The basic
> message was that I shouldn't use pip to install into the system dirs.  But
> even using pip --user is not answer, because pip will see that e.g.,
> matplotlib wants a newer version of pytz, and will attempt to remove the
> system pytz (and fail and abort).
>
>  The only reliable approach is virtualenv.  Not really very satisfactory.
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:02 AM, Mathew Topper <mat...@ed...>wrote:
>
>>  Hi Neal,
>>
>> Is that due to conflicting package versions? I haven't suffered any
>> particular issues like this yet, but it seems to me that pip would be
>> improved if it interacted better with the environment it was in. How hard
>> would it be to get pip to interact with yum and apt, for instance, to get
>> valid binaries and/or devel files?
>>
>> I can't help thinking that Latex packaging is very similar, in that linux
>> distributions often struggle to keep up, which I guess is why TexLive
>> started.
>>
>> And then to complicate matters further, our sys admin said he didn't like
>> pip as he would rather generate RPMs, in order that there is not a lot of
>> work to do for system rebuilds in our labs. I found pypi2rpm, but that
>> looks pretty bleeding edge and I think I'm getting out of my depth as a
>> humble scientist.
>>
>> Mat
>>
>> On 19/11/12 12:59, Neal Becker wrote:
>>
>> Mathew Topper wrote:
>>
>>
>>  Hi,
>>
>> I'm interested to know why the pip package manager is not more widely
>> supported for installation of python packages like matplotlib?
>> Matplotlib seems to be particularly slowly updated in the Fedora
>> repositories, for example, so I often find that a source installation is
>> necessary. I know this isn't especially difficult for the experienced
>> user, but surely using something like pip would make this process for
>> accessible for all users of python packages, particularly those that do
>> not receive much attention from the big distribution maintainers? Yet,
>> pip doesn't get a mention on the installation documentation of
>> matplotlib or many other python packs.
>>
>> I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this matter.
>>
>> Many Thanks,
>>
>> Mat
>>
>>  It is dangerous to use pip on fedora, it may result in your next attempt to
>> update the system failing horribly.
>>
>> If you use it, try to install with --user.  Unfortunately, this often won't work
>> because pip will then complain when attempting to remove a system version of
>> some dep.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Monitor your physical, virtual and cloud infrastructure from a single
>> web console. Get in-depth insight into apps, servers, databases, vmware,
>> SAP, cloud infrastructure, etc. Download 30-day Free Trial.
>> Pricing starts from $795 for 25 servers or applications!http://p.sf.net/sfu/zoho_dev2dev_nov
>> _______________________________________________
>> Matplotlib-users mailing lis...@li...://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Mathew Topper
>> Institute for Energy Systems
>> School of Engineering
>> The University of Edinburgh
>> Faraday Building
>> The King’s Buildings
>> Edinburgh EH9 3JL
>> Tel: +44 (0)131 650 5570 <%2B44%20%280%29131%20650%205570>
>> School fax: +44 (0)131 650 6554 <%2B44%20%280%29131%20650%206554>
>> mat...@ed...
>> http://www.see.ed.ac.uk
>>
>> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
>> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
>>
>>
>
> --
> Dr. Mathew Topper
> Institute for Energy Systems
> School of Engineering
> The University of Edinburgh
> Faraday Building
> The King’s Buildings
> Edinburgh EH9 3JL
> Tel: +44 (0)131 650 5570
> School fax: +44 (0)131 650 6554
> mat...@ed...
> http://www.see.ed.ac.uk
>
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
>
>