Now if Jamulus had a proper touch interface... This browser thing is quite fiddely. You can also use the VNC app instead of the browser. It is a little better to operate but still this is made for mouse operation.
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would it be possible te make Jambox use all USB-ports for input/output
of sound? So you can apply a USB mic, USB headset, USB-mixer or 2
headsets for two users at the same time.
I've never tried that (maybe someone who has can chime in here). I think something like this is possible by creating alsa pseudo-devices. But that's likely to be rather complex and painful to get working, and in the end may introduce more delay than you can tolerate.
My advice would be not to go there. If multiple inputs is what you want, I'd suggest running them through an analog mixer before your USB audio interface. That's simple, easy to control, and adds no delay.
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I just got my USB microphone. I plugged it into my pi 3b+ and it worked right away. But there is a bad hiss in which I can hear mouse pointer movements. Very annoying. Do you have any idea where this might come from? Is this a limitation of the Pi 3b+? There are no such noises with the same microphone on a PC.
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Pi3 has very bad filtering on the USB power it supplies, and some USB audio interfaces have very poor filtering on their USB power inputs to protect their sensitive mic preamps. That's a bad combination.
There do exist "USB Noise Isolator" devices which allow you to power your USB audio device from a separate power supply, while filtering noise out of the signal wires from the RPi. Mostly they are kind of expensive, and you also need a second power supply, cheapest one is from Nobsound: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GB4CQQ3
These can work. Also, you might get some small benefit by trying a separately-powered USB hub. Possibly a different power supply on the Pi3 could help slightly.
But my advice is not to try very hard to fix it. Your money is better spent on a Pi4, or on an audio interface with better noise immunity. Pi3 is hard to make work with USB-powered mic preamp.
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So a Pi4 should be better? I'll try this later and let you know. A separate audio interface like these Behringer devices would have the same problem I suppose. Would a different microphone be better? This one is a fairly cheap Superlux model.
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Pi3 and P4 have different power connectors, so I normally run Pi4 with a USB-C power supply, and Pi3 with a mini-USB power supply. But then it's not valid to say "Pi3 has more noise", because maybe I run my Pi3's with noisier power supplies than I use on Pi4.
So I ran a test using same supply on Pi3 and Pi4 - a battery, which is the cleanest supply possible. I swapped out only Pi3 vs Pi4. and their USB power cables.
And Pi3 vs Pi4 didn't make much difference. It must be that the power supplies I use on Pi3 added more noise, which make me think Pi3 was worse.
So, if you are hearing power supply noise in you USB audio input:
The main problem is with interface. Some interfaces don't have good filtering to protect their mic preamps.
Power supply is a contributor. Try changing the power supply, or using a different/shorter power cable.
Pi4 might improve the noise, but mainly because Pi4 power supplies seem to contribute less noise. (However Pi4 is good stuff so I recommend Pi4 for performance reasons).
I haven't tested for this, but I expect that case also matters, with metal cases likely to be more protective. I use only metal cases.
The Behringer UM2 has mild noise sensitivity. for me it's quiet on Pi4 but there is some power supply noise with the Pi3's + associated supplies that I tested with.
I suggest you start by swapping out things you have or can borrow, like different power supply, USB cables, or Pi4 if you can. If you need to start spending money, get a better interface for noise reasons. And maybe a Pi4, but primarily for performance reasons. Pi4 might fix a noise problem, but only in marginal case, and mainly because Pi4 power supplies tend to be better from noise perspective.
Last edit: Kevin Doren 2021-02-26
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Thank you very much for this detailed write up. So I did some tests in the meantime. The microphone is a Superlux E205U.
I tried the pi3 with batteries (after finding a working usb cable, the first ones didn't work). There was no change in the noise generated.
Turned on WiFi and unplugged the ethernet cable, so the Pi was only connected to battery and mic. No change in noise, I could still hear the mouse moving.
Then I used a Pi4 with official power supply. The noise is much less but still too much for my taste. I couldn't run on battery for lack of usb c cable. Listening to this "silence" for a while still got quite annoying and I had to turn it off. When changing recording levels until the noise didn't bothered me anymore it resulted in too low recording levels. With some actual music going on it might have been bearable but I didn't try.
Used my regular desktop PC. The noise is much less, with proper sound settings it is quite usable.
Used a laptop computer on batteries. Not much difference to the desktop, maybe a tad less noise. But in both cases there is no comparison to the Pis.
So far I get the best Jamulus results with my regular desktop PC but with my iPhone as microphone. The pc has a real microphone jack so I run a cable from the iPhone's headphone jack to the pc and use an app that turns the phone into a microphone. This works really well, there is virtually no background noise and the recorded sound is pretty good. The Superlux sounds somewhat better but not dramatically so. Unfortunately, this is not a solution for Jambox. Also, many pc's don't have microphone inputs. I've been using this setup for months.
The Superlux has a headphone output otherwise it wouldn't be much use on the pi. But on both the pc and the laptop everything, including Jamulus, sounds much better if I plug the headphones into the pc instead of the mic. The interface built into the mic must be pretty poor I think.
So I haven't found a proper solution yet but learned a lot. Is there a usb microphone you could recommend? Or should I better forget this idea and go for an external audio interface? I am still looking for something cheap that will also work on pc's and I could tell people to get.
Last edit: hk1020 2021-02-27
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Most USB mics will play the live sound from your mic through your headphones. In Jamulus you want to listen only to the feed from the server. Cheap USB mics can't do this.
Hi all - just a reminder that we will be making these forums read only in the coming days so please take up your discussion on the Facebook group (where there are a lot more readers) or post as (I suggest) an Announcement for discussion on the GitHub Discussion group if you need more technically-orientated conversation (GitHub is where the main development team live).
Thanks, and apologies for the inconvenience,
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Hi HK,
I think that if one is picky about ones sound and requires a noise-free sound one will not be happy with any of the inexpensive solutions. Whether USB mic or interface with mic, with a certain investment you will have more pleasure. I prefer the interface with mic as that way one is more flexible, but that is a matter of personal preference. In any case I went from a ~chf70 no-name mic (similar to the Superlux China products) with , for me, way too much noise to a ~chf200 Rode NT5 mic and the difference is like day and night. The Rode is worth every penny and there are certainly many others that are just as good.
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Thanks. I don't think I am particularly picky. I just want something that works and doesn't sound like a noisy AM broadcast when a few clients have joined. So I am definately not after a high end solution.
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Now if Jamulus had a proper touch interface... This browser thing is quite fiddely. You can also use the VNC app instead of the browser. It is a little better to operate but still this is made for mouse operation.
iPad supports bluetooth mouse... I had one lying around, and you inspired me to try it. It works surprisingly well!
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211009
Hey Kevin,
would it be possible te make Jambox use all USB-ports for input/output
of sound? So you can apply a USB mic, USB headset, USB-mixer or 2
headsets for two users at the same time.
met muzikale groet,
Jan Smale
Zingen met Jan
06 51 49 17 13 <tel:0651491713>
www.zingenmetjan.nl https://www.zingenmetjan.nl
https://www.zingenmetjan.nl
Op 24-2-2021 om 01:15 schreef Kevin Doren:</tel:0651491713>
I've never tried that (maybe someone who has can chime in here). I think something like this is possible by creating alsa pseudo-devices. But that's likely to be rather complex and painful to get working, and in the end may introduce more delay than you can tolerate.
My advice would be not to go there. If multiple inputs is what you want, I'd suggest running them through an analog mixer before your USB audio interface. That's simple, easy to control, and adds no delay.
I just got my USB microphone. I plugged it into my pi 3b+ and it worked right away. But there is a bad hiss in which I can hear mouse pointer movements. Very annoying. Do you have any idea where this might come from? Is this a limitation of the Pi 3b+? There are no such noises with the same microphone on a PC.
Pi3 has very bad filtering on the USB power it supplies, and some USB audio interfaces have very poor filtering on their USB power inputs to protect their sensitive mic preamps. That's a bad combination.
There do exist "USB Noise Isolator" devices which allow you to power your USB audio device from a separate power supply, while filtering noise out of the signal wires from the RPi. Mostly they are kind of expensive, and you also need a second power supply, cheapest one is from Nobsound: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GB4CQQ3
These can work. Also, you might get some small benefit by trying a separately-powered USB hub. Possibly a different power supply on the Pi3 could help slightly.
But my advice is not to try very hard to fix it. Your money is better spent on a Pi4, or on an audio interface with better noise immunity. Pi3 is hard to make work with USB-powered mic preamp.
So a Pi4 should be better? I'll try this later and let you know. A separate audio interface like these Behringer devices would have the same problem I suppose. Would a different microphone be better? This one is a fairly cheap Superlux model.
Pi3 and P4 have different power connectors, so I normally run Pi4 with a USB-C power supply, and Pi3 with a mini-USB power supply. But then it's not valid to say "Pi3 has more noise", because maybe I run my Pi3's with noisier power supplies than I use on Pi4.
So I ran a test using same supply on Pi3 and Pi4 - a battery, which is the cleanest supply possible. I swapped out only Pi3 vs Pi4. and their USB power cables.
And Pi3 vs Pi4 didn't make much difference. It must be that the power supplies I use on Pi3 added more noise, which make me think Pi3 was worse.
So, if you are hearing power supply noise in you USB audio input:
There are some interfaces I have tried that don't have power supply noise on Pi3, although on the cheap ones the tradeoff is that the mic preamps have their own noise (hiss). Examples are Techrise ( https://www.amazon.com/TechRise-External-Adapter-Splitter-Converter/dp/B01J7P0OG ) and Sabrent ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IRVQ0F8 ). To work well you would want a mic with high output so that you could lower the capture level to reduce the preamp noise.
If you are in US, this USB mic from Talent is low-noise and has a mix control so you can listen only to Jamulus server: https://www.parts-express.com/Talent-USB-PRO-Professional-USB-Microphone-with-Headphone-Output-Mix-and-Volume-Controls-233-094
The Behringer UM2 has mild noise sensitivity. for me it's quiet on Pi4 but there is some power supply noise with the Pi3's + associated supplies that I tested with.
I suggest you start by swapping out things you have or can borrow, like different power supply, USB cables, or Pi4 if you can. If you need to start spending money, get a better interface for noise reasons. And maybe a Pi4, but primarily for performance reasons. Pi4 might fix a noise problem, but only in marginal case, and mainly because Pi4 power supplies tend to be better from noise perspective.
Last edit: Kevin Doren 2021-02-26
Thank you very much for this detailed write up. So I did some tests in the meantime. The microphone is a Superlux E205U.
So far I get the best Jamulus results with my regular desktop PC but with my iPhone as microphone. The pc has a real microphone jack so I run a cable from the iPhone's headphone jack to the pc and use an app that turns the phone into a microphone. This works really well, there is virtually no background noise and the recorded sound is pretty good. The Superlux sounds somewhat better but not dramatically so. Unfortunately, this is not a solution for Jambox. Also, many pc's don't have microphone inputs. I've been using this setup for months.
The Superlux has a headphone output otherwise it wouldn't be much use on the pi. But on both the pc and the laptop everything, including Jamulus, sounds much better if I plug the headphones into the pc instead of the mic. The interface built into the mic must be pretty poor I think.
So I haven't found a proper solution yet but learned a lot. Is there a usb microphone you could recommend? Or should I better forget this idea and go for an external audio interface? I am still looking for something cheap that will also work on pc's and I could tell people to get.
Last edit: hk1020 2021-02-27
Most USB mics will play the live sound from your mic through your headphones. In Jamulus you want to listen only to the feed from the server. Cheap USB mics can't do this.
Except this one, which was apparently meant to sell at a high price but has been marked down (might be limited to stock on hand). In US you get free shipping if you buy 2. It's quite good, especially considering the price: https://www.parts-express.com/Talent-USB-PRO-Professional-USB-Microphone-with-Headphone-Output-Mix-and-Volume-Controls-233-094
The Superlux looks fairly similar but it only has one knob controling the headphones. I can't find any other supplier for the Talent version.
I do hear the full mix or youtube through my headphones plugged directly into the mic. So I guess it has full playback capabilities.
Hi all - just a reminder that we will be making these forums read only in the coming days so please take up your discussion on the Facebook group (where there are a lot more readers) or post as (I suggest) an Announcement for discussion on the GitHub Discussion group if you need more technically-orientated conversation (GitHub is where the main development team live).
Thanks, and apologies for the inconvenience,
Facebook is a no-no, I'll never go there. The github discussion section I found quite convoluted and couldn't find anything in an acceptable order.
I think that the problem with sorting on GH discussions might be resolved with this feedback: https://github.com/github/feedback/discussions/3235 I just upvoted it and hope they'll add it!
Hi HK,
I think that if one is picky about ones sound and requires a noise-free sound one will not be happy with any of the inexpensive solutions. Whether USB mic or interface with mic, with a certain investment you will have more pleasure. I prefer the interface with mic as that way one is more flexible, but that is a matter of personal preference. In any case I went from a ~chf70 no-name mic (similar to the Superlux China products) with , for me, way too much noise to a ~chf200 Rode NT5 mic and the difference is like day and night. The Rode is worth every penny and there are certainly many others that are just as good.
Thanks. I don't think I am particularly picky. I just want something that works and doesn't sound like a noisy AM broadcast when a few clients have joined. So I am definately not after a high end solution.