I'm sorry for this. Actually, what I need is a form of cursive ’s’ that we use in handwriting (see below). Because I’m working on a 16th century manuscript that distinguishes this form of ’s’ from the normal ones: round ’s’ or long ‘ſ’. And I only find this type of ’s’ in some special ‘handwriting’-fonts.
Status: open
Group: Next_Release_(example)
Created: Wed Jun 20, 2018 07:20 AM UTC by Victor Millet
Last Updated: Wed Jun 20, 2018 07:23 AM UTC
Owner: Peter Baker
Would it be possible to add a set of minuscle script types, i.e. types that correspond to modern Western handwriting?
The next question is why a cursive s should appear in a roman font. The way I see it, this is the round s adapted for a context in which it must be attached fore and aft, and that context doesn't exist in Junicode--which I do not want to take in the direction of embedding a cursive style. On the other hand, if there's a semantic as opposed to a stylistic distinction here, I could work on that, but I'd need to know more about the source and what you're doing with it.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Thanks for your answer: I understand your skepticism with the cursive. I didn’t mean that I would need a cursive letter in the sense that it fluently connects with other letters. I was referring to the SHAPE of the letter (https://goo.gl/images/WFxQNX https://goo.gl/images/WFxQNX). I thought that, in the same way there are other letters with different shapes (like +A75B "Latin small letter r rotunda”), an ’s’ with a shape of the one used in cursive handwriting, even if it is not cursive, could be interesting or useful.
I’m working on Vienna, cod. vindob. ser. nova 2663 (known as ‘Ambraser Heldenbuch’) a very professional codex in great-folio parchment from a.D. 1517: http://digital.onb.ac.at/RepViewer/viewer.faces?doc=DTL_3332756&order=1&view=SINGLEhttp://digital.onb.ac.at/RepViewer/viewer.faces?doc=DTL_3332756&order=1&view=SINGLE
And I’m preparing an electronic edition, to be viewed online. In my TEI-based markup of the xml-transcription I use different graphs for a series of letters. They become visible when you activate the transcription mode; in the edition mode they are automatically transformed into regular modern letters.
The next question is why a cursive s should appear in a roman font. The way I see it, this is the round s adapted for a context in which it must be attached fore and aft, and that context doesn't exist in Junicode--which I do not want to take in the direction of embedding a cursive style. On the other hand, if there's a semantic as opposed to a stylistic distinction here, I could work on that, but I'd need to know more about the source and what you're doing with it.
Status: open
Group: Next_Release_(example)
Created: Wed Jun 20, 2018 07:20 AM UTC by Victor Millet
Last Updated: Thu Jun 21, 2018 01:56 PM UTC
Owner: Peter Baker
Would it be possible to add a set of minuscle script types, i.e. types that correspond to modern Western handwriting?
Beautiful MS, elegant hand. I can see right away the long s, and also the round s used in word-final position. Can you point me to an example of the letter-shape you're talking about? Image number, column, line, and quote the word?
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Of course: take for example image 29 / fol. 6 recto, column a, lines 18–26 (second paragraph, marked with red initial E):
line 18: was (end of the line)
line 19: es (3rd word)
line 20: las (1st word)
line 22: tichtens (3rd word)
line 24: vleiss (1st word) + was (1st word)
I chose this paragraph, because here this type of s appear much more frequently than in other parts of the same column. This type of s mostly in final position. Interesting is also Column b, line 15, first word: liess, with long s and ‘my' s.
I consider the ’s’ of the examples above a precursor of modern cursive s-shape. Whereas the round s of e.g. column a, line 31, 6th word: des; line 33, 1st word: was – this seems to me a form of round s like the one we use in all kinds of printing today.
Beautiful MS, elegant hand. I can see right away the long s, and also the round s used in word-final position. Can you point me to an example of the letter-shape you're talking about? Image number, column, line, and quote the word?
Status: open
Group: Next_Release_(example)
Created: Wed Jun 20, 2018 07:20 AM UTC by Victor Millet
Last Updated: Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:01 PM UTC
Owner: Peter Baker
Would it be possible to add a set of minuscle script types, i.e. types that correspond to modern Western handwriting?
Now to my eye, this looks like the sigma-shaped s that often appears in word-final position in gothic cursive, and becomes standard in that position in secretary hand. See e.g. "gentes" in about the middle of this image:
The question is how to design this for a roman font. You could possibly get away with using MUFI F128 LATIN SMALL LETTER S CLOSED FORM, if you're not already using it elsewhere, or I could add something more sigma-like.
Another question would be whether and how to encode it. The safest thing would be to add an unencoded letter-shape and make it available via an OpenType character variant tag. Or I could raise the question of a code point with the MUFI gang.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
I do agree that it seems a sigma; actually, at Innsbruck University, where they’re working on a complete, very accurate TEI-transcription of the whole codex, using Junicode (which, by the way, is simply excellent!), they use sigma here, as they told me. And we do have a secretary hand here, as we know the scribe of this literary manuscript to be a secretary of the Austrian emperor Maximilian. I’m not satisfied with the sigma (Greek letters are rare), but I admit that maybe it is the best solution. Better than MUFI F128, at least, which is a normal round s, only closed at the end.
Thanks anyway!
Now to my eye, this looks like the sigma-shaped s that often appears in word-final position in gothic cursive, and becomes standard in that position in secretary hand. See e.g. "gentes" in about the middle of this image:
The question is how to design this for a roman font. You could possibly get away with using MUFI F128 LATIN SMALL LETTER S CLOSED FORM, if you're not already using it elsewhere, or I could add something more sigma-like.
Another question would be whether and how to encode it. The safest thing would be to add an unencoded letter-shape and make it available via an OpenType character variant tag. Or I could raise the question of a code point with the MUFI gang.
Status: open
Group: Next_Release_(example)
Created: Wed Jun 20, 2018 07:20 AM UTC by Victor Millet
Last Updated: Fri Jun 22, 2018 01:39 PM UTC
Owner: Peter Baker
Would it be possible to add a set of minuscle script types, i.e. types that correspond to modern Western handwriting?
Status: open
Group: Next_Release_(example)
Created: Wed Jun 20, 2018 07:20 AM UTC by Victor Millet
Last Updated: Fri Jun 22, 2018 02:36 PM UTC
Owner: Peter Baker
Would it be possible to add a set of minuscle script types, i.e. types that correspond to modern Western handwriting?
Sorry, owner is not Peter Baker
I'm afraid I don't understand either the original query or the follow-up.
I'm sorry for this. Actually, what I need is a form of cursive ’s’ that we use in handwriting (see below). Because I’m working on a 16th century manuscript that distinguishes this form of ’s’ from the normal ones: round ’s’ or long ‘ſ’. And I only find this type of ’s’ in some special ‘handwriting’-fonts.
Related
Feature Requests:
#56The next question is why a cursive s should appear in a roman font. The way I see it, this is the round s adapted for a context in which it must be attached fore and aft, and that context doesn't exist in Junicode--which I do not want to take in the direction of embedding a cursive style. On the other hand, if there's a semantic as opposed to a stylistic distinction here, I could work on that, but I'd need to know more about the source and what you're doing with it.
Thanks for your answer: I understand your skepticism with the cursive. I didn’t mean that I would need a cursive letter in the sense that it fluently connects with other letters. I was referring to the SHAPE of the letter (https://goo.gl/images/WFxQNX https://goo.gl/images/WFxQNX). I thought that, in the same way there are other letters with different shapes (like +A75B "Latin small letter r rotunda”), an ’s’ with a shape of the one used in cursive handwriting, even if it is not cursive, could be interesting or useful.
I’m working on Vienna, cod. vindob. ser. nova 2663 (known as ‘Ambraser Heldenbuch’) a very professional codex in great-folio parchment from a.D. 1517: http://digital.onb.ac.at/RepViewer/viewer.faces?doc=DTL_3332756&order=1&view=SINGLE http://digital.onb.ac.at/RepViewer/viewer.faces?doc=DTL_3332756&order=1&view=SINGLE
And I’m preparing an electronic edition, to be viewed online. In my TEI-based markup of the xml-transcription I use different graphs for a series of letters. They become visible when you activate the transcription mode; in the edition mode they are automatically transformed into regular modern letters.
Related
Feature Requests:
#56Beautiful MS, elegant hand. I can see right away the long s, and also the round s used in word-final position. Can you point me to an example of the letter-shape you're talking about? Image number, column, line, and quote the word?
Of course: take for example image 29 / fol. 6 recto, column a, lines 18–26 (second paragraph, marked with red initial E):
line 18: was (end of the line)
line 19: es (3rd word)
line 20: las (1st word)
line 22: tichtens (3rd word)
line 24: vleiss (1st word) + was (1st word)
I chose this paragraph, because here this type of s appear much more frequently than in other parts of the same column. This type of s mostly in final position. Interesting is also Column b, line 15, first word: liess, with long s and ‘my' s.
I consider the ’s’ of the examples above a precursor of modern cursive s-shape. Whereas the round s of e.g. column a, line 31, 6th word: des; line 33, 1st word: was – this seems to me a form of round s like the one we use in all kinds of printing today.
Related
Feature Requests:
#56Now to my eye, this looks like the sigma-shaped s that often appears in word-final position in gothic cursive, and becomes standard in that position in secretary hand. See e.g. "gentes" in about the middle of this image:
The question is how to design this for a roman font. You could possibly get away with using MUFI F128 LATIN SMALL LETTER S CLOSED FORM, if you're not already using it elsewhere, or I could add something more sigma-like.
Another question would be whether and how to encode it. The safest thing would be to add an unencoded letter-shape and make it available via an OpenType character variant tag. Or I could raise the question of a code point with the MUFI gang.
I do agree that it seems a sigma; actually, at Innsbruck University, where they’re working on a complete, very accurate TEI-transcription of the whole codex, using Junicode (which, by the way, is simply excellent!), they use sigma here, as they told me. And we do have a secretary hand here, as we know the scribe of this literary manuscript to be a secretary of the Austrian emperor Maximilian. I’m not satisfied with the sigma (Greek letters are rare), but I admit that maybe it is the best solution. Better than MUFI F128, at least, which is a normal round s, only closed at the end.
Thanks anyway!
Related
Feature Requests:
#56Using a sigma is an okay solution. The current version of Junicode (1.001) doesn't have one. Would it help if I added it?
Yes, thank you. And thanks for the discussion.
Related
Feature Requests:
#56sigma added in regular and italic faces. The new version will be posted momentarily.