indic-computing-devel Mailing List for The Indic-Computing Project (Page 5)
Status: Alpha
Brought to you by:
jkoshy
Menu
▾
▴
indic-computing-devel — Discussing the development of tools for Indian language information processing
You can subscribe to this list here.
| 2001 |
Jan
|
Feb
|
Mar
|
Apr
|
May
|
Jun
|
Jul
|
Aug
|
Sep
|
Oct
|
Nov
|
Dec
(14) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2002 |
Jan
(25) |
Feb
(90) |
Mar
(41) |
Apr
(16) |
May
(8) |
Jun
|
Jul
(37) |
Aug
(35) |
Sep
(62) |
Oct
(37) |
Nov
(22) |
Dec
(7) |
| 2003 |
Jan
(16) |
Feb
(19) |
Mar
(10) |
Apr
(5) |
May
(26) |
Jun
(11) |
Jul
(35) |
Aug
(4) |
Sep
(14) |
Oct
(5) |
Nov
(5) |
Dec
(10) |
| 2004 |
Jan
(25) |
Feb
(2) |
Mar
|
Apr
(1) |
May
|
Jun
|
Jul
(10) |
Aug
(2) |
Sep
(2) |
Oct
(1) |
Nov
(9) |
Dec
|
| 2005 |
Jan
|
Feb
|
Mar
|
Apr
|
May
|
Jun
|
Jul
(2) |
Aug
|
Sep
|
Oct
(1) |
Nov
(1) |
Dec
(1) |
| 2006 |
Jan
|
Feb
|
Mar
(1) |
Apr
|
May
|
Jun
|
Jul
|
Aug
|
Sep
|
Oct
|
Nov
(1) |
Dec
|
| 2017 |
Jan
|
Feb
|
Mar
|
Apr
|
May
|
Jun
|
Jul
|
Aug
|
Sep
|
Oct
|
Nov
(4) |
Dec
|
|
From: Alok K. <alo...@so...> - 2003-08-24 12:41:01
|
More details at this site: http://www.mpp.org.np/default.php , Madan Puraskar Pustakalaya. Kalimati font created by Sanir Karmacharya <saneer AT msn.com> http://www.mpp.org.np/downloads/Kalimati.ttf Thakya Rabison font by Rabison Shakya <hjli AT rabison.wlink.com.np>, http://www.mpp.org.np/downloads/tr.ttf To see screenshots, http://geocities.com/alkuma/seehindi.html (refresh) Unfortunately I couldn't find any licensing information. -- http://9211.blogspot.com Can't see Hindi? http://geocities.com/alkuma/seehindi.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux-bangalore-hindi/ Discuss devanagari at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/devanaagarii/ alok_kumar ऍट softhome डॉट net |
|
From: Hariram P. <hrp...@ya...> - 2003-07-23 12:38:40
|
> 1. Re: Devanagari Unicode encodings - revision > (Dr. U.B. Pavanaja) > Message: 1 > From: "Dr. U.B. Pavanaja" > <pav...@vi...> > To: ind...@li... > Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:02:44 +0530 > Subject: Re: [Indic-computing-devel] Devanagari > Unicode encodings - revision > > > Can you please elaborate a little more on this? How > are you > going to fulfil the requirements of almost 15,000 > individual > glyphs (=encodings, according to you) if we have to > consider one > glyph for every possible combination. Sure, you > might have > thought about this and might be having a solution. > Or I might > not have fully understood your approach. Please > elaborate. Some hints are elaborated : The chart of chronological Development of Devanagari Script from Brahmi onwards to now, shows : -- the use of Hraswa 'i' (small i) was after the consonant, and put at above only. -- there was only one form of 'r', which was with 'kana', (present form of refa came after corrupted use) which represents all the forms of r ie ri, hri, rii, ra, reph, ru, roo, ttra, tra, etc. -- the Chandrabindu, Anuswar and bisarg were after the o, ou, Vowels in sorting order. -- In BarahKhadi - (i.e. like : ka, kaa, ki, kii, ku, kuu, kri, kli, ke, kai, ko, kou) were used. -- The Anuswar, Chandrabindu, and Bisarga may come with any of these BarahKadi consonants+vowels as (kan, kaan, kin, kiin, kun, kuun, krin, klin, ken, kain, kon, koun)...(kah, kaah, kih, kiih, kuh, kuuh, krih, klih, keh, kaih, koh, kouh)... -- The basic sounds (characters, ie Vowels+consonants+matras) were limited to 49, called Marut, Bijakshar or Bijamantra, each denotes a DEV or DEVI. -- The Ya, Ra, La, Va, characters are derived from the mixing up of vowels ya= i+a, Ra= Ri+a, La=Li+a, Va=u+a -- The 3 types of S were have clear definitions -- The ka, anga, chha, tta, ttha, dda, ddha, da, pha, ha, all were Kanakar, i.e. the absence of kana makes pure consonants = consonants with halanta = half characters. -- The Panini's Ashtadhyayi, Siddhanta Koumidi etc. referes much elaboration at sentence/syntax level. -- Each and every sound of any languages/boli of the world can be written in this script and can prounced back 'as it is it'. -- The frequecy of sound, pitch of sound, volume of sound and Tone of sound also taken care with the Udatta, Anudatta, Swarit etc. --The Avagraha for reprentatation of time slice of a vowel has special place. -- The Musical Saptak/rhythm also implied and represented. -- If encodings developed on this Moola Devanagari in some revised form according to the structures of compunting, -The future sound-based computer input-output system(avoiding keyboard) and NLP may work fine on basis of it. -Internet telephony may be 1000 times faster. -World voice comunnication will be easier, cheaper and thousand times faster. > > Solve of many problems faced now, like, > unscientific > > sorting order, duplicate/multiple forms/sequences > of > > letters/conjucts/matras etc, could also be get > > easily. > > The biggest failure of ISCII is in sorting. It has > only one > table catering both for the code chart and for > sorting. Unicode > has takena better approach. It has different tables > for > character code and sorting. > > Have you taken a look at the Unicode collation > algorithm and the > colation tables (www.unicode.org/tr10)? It is too complex and still can not provide perfect sound/dhwani-based auto sorting order (as per the frequency and pitch of the sound) > Pavanaja > Dr. U.B. Pavanaja ---- I am trying to develop a presentation in powerpoint slides to explain above points with proper pictures/graphs. Regards Hariram Pansari __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com |
|
From: <a_j...@ya...> - 2003-07-23 01:10:39
|
> Can someone tell me where is the problem? You'll need to have an input method configured in for the given locale. AFAIK, there isn't a proper input method for Indic language input under X. Please also see: http://indic-computing.sourceforge.net/projects/xinput.html ===== Joseph Koshy, FreeBSD Developer, http://people.freebsd.org/~jkoshy/ Founder/Manager/Programmer/Peon, The Indic-Computing Project http://indic-computing.sf.net ________________________________________________________________________ Send free SMS using the Yahoo! Messenger. Go to http://in.mobile.yahoo.com/new/pc/ |
|
From: Jyotirmoy S. <jyo...@ya...> - 2003-07-21 11:56:45
|
Hi, I've a proper UTF-8 locale and my LC_ALL is set to that locale (hi_IN). Commands like date, cal, ls -l etc are giving me proper UTF-8 strings. I've compiled rxvt with X Input Method(XIM) support on. I'm using "xmodmap" to input unicode character. I'm using the xmodmap files from IndLinux.org When I press "Right-ALT(mode_switch key) + k", rxvt gives me the correct keysym(which is U0915) through XmbLookupString. But the same function (XmbLookupString) fails to give me correct UTF-8 encoded string for the keysym. In fact, this fucntion doesn't return any string at all! I've got the same problem with other X clients which uses X Input Method. I know that "XmbLookupString returns text in the encoding of the locale bound to the input method of the specified input context". Can someone tell me where is the problem? Thanks in advance. Jyotirmoy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com |
|
From: Dr. U.B. P. <pav...@vi...> - 2003-07-18 10:35:20
|
> From: Hariram Pansari <hrp...@ya...> > Devanagari Unicode encodings are based on ISCII-91 > encodings. This works on 2 tier system, Encodings - > and glyphs of OTF. > > "Devanagari lipi ka itihas", if searched, a best > solution may come out, for making the encodings to a > SINGLE TIRE SYSTEM, i.e. encodings=fonts, with perfect > sorting order which will be best fit for Devanagari > Databases operations also. Can you please elaborate a little more on this? How are you going to fulfil the requirements of almost 15,000 individual glyphs (=encodings, according to you) if we have to consider one glyph for every possible combination. Sure, you might have thought about this and might be having a solution. Or I might not have fully understood your approach. Please elaborate. > Solve of many problems faced now, like, unscientific > sorting order, duplicate/multiple forms/sequences of > letters/conjucts/matras etc, could also be get > easily. The biggest failure of ISCII is in sorting. It has only one table catering both for the code chart and for sorting. Unicode has takena better approach. It has different tables for character code and sorting. Have you taken a look at the Unicode collation algorithm and the colation tables (www.unicode.org/tr10)? Rgds, Pavanaja ----------------------------------------------------- Dr. U.B. Pavanaja Editor, Vishva Kannada World's first Internet magazine in Kannada http://www.vishvakannada.com/ Note: I don't worry about pselling mixtakes |
|
From: Hariram P. <hrp...@ya...> - 2003-07-17 06:34:44
|
Devanagari Unicode encodings are based on ISCII-91 encodings. This works on 2 tier system, Encodings - and glyphs of OTF. "Devanagari lipi ka itihas", if searched, a best solution may come out, for making the encodings to a SINGLE TIRE SYSTEM, i.e. encodings=fonts, with perfect sorting order which will be best fit for Devanagari Databases operations also. Solve of many problems faced now, like, unscientific sorting order, duplicate/multiple forms/sequences of letters/conjucts/matras etc, could also be get easily. Hariram Pansari __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com |
|
From: Krishnamurthy N. <kn...@ya...> - 2003-07-15 05:02:38
|
--- Guntupalli Karunakar <kar...@fr...> > My point is if you put three then there will be > demand to put others > too.. the DA , RA, TA forms etc to start with, so > better not put any. > & its an encoding system being defined not a font. > There are some official & linguistic documents > which can give more > info. maybe ppl in delhi can dig them out from dept > of official langs, > central hindi directorate or any univ. library (the > easiest). Yes, I know it's the encoding system we are talking about and not the fonts. Everyone missed out what I mentioned first - that it's worth mentioning in the handbook what letters historically existed in the lexicon of the given script; someone down the line side-tracked it and dragged Unicode into it, though I NEVER mentioned it in my original reply to Alok. This kind of discussion is highly unproductive and wastes everybody's time. Nagarajan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com |
|
From: Suryaprakash K. <kom...@ce...> - 2003-07-14 12:45:03
|
Hello, > I added a bunch of images for the consonants yesterday, they are hand drawn > and look ugly. > Is there any other option? Font glyphs may be copy protected. So if anybody There should be some OSC/GNU based fonts out there - or there are other fonts like CODE2000/1 http://home.att.net/~jameskass/ which are available for very nominal rates, and sometimes, only permission from the authors. - Surya > is interested in granting permission to use their font glyphs for the > handbook, please let us know. > Even then, a font would normally have one form of a character's glyph, so we > might need to use glyphs from many fonts to replace the hand drawn ones. > Gradually the hand drawn graphemes should get replaced by machine generated > ones. |
|
From: Pavanaja U B <pav...@no...> - 2003-07-14 11:20:24
|
I fully agree with Karunakar. -Pavanaja > On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 01:09:13 -0700 (PDT) > Krishnamurthy Nagarajan <kn...@ya...> wrote: > > > > > --- Guntupalli Karunakar <kar...@fr...> > > wrote: > > > > > > Actually, it can be. The same goes for thra/tra > > > and gya/jna/gna. > > > > Lexically there is absolutely no difference > > > between half ka + shha > > > > and the ksha we are talking about. > > > > > > > going by that logic aspirated consonants (KHA, GHA, > > > TTHA etc) are to > > > be composed of the pure consonant + HA sound. > > > I think the idea of keeping conjuncts (including > > > KSHA, TRA, JNA) out > > > of encoding is to minimise, script symbols in view > > > of the limited > > > space avaialble for encoding (128 code or less code > > > points). If there > > > were 1000 or more code points available then > > > defnitely KSHA & co > > > would have been included as characters or akhands. > > > > Well, there isn't paucity of code points for just 3 > > more characters. TRA is surely a conjunct (though > > it probably is mentioned as a base char. in some old > > texts), GNA also is. However, KSHA is rather unique > > and deserves to be identified as a base character, IMO > > > My point is if you put three then there will be demand to put others > too.. the DA , RA, TA forms etc to start with, so better not put any. > & its an encoding system being defined not a font. > There are some official & linguistic documents which can give more > info. maybe ppl in delhi can dig them out from dept of official langs, > central hindi directorate or any univ. library (the easiest). > > Regards, > Karunakar > > -- > A Reasonable man adapts himself to the world > An Unreasonable man tries to adapt the world to himself > So all progress in the world depends on the Unreasonable man - GB Shaw > > --------------------------- > * Indian Linux project * > * http://www.indlinux.org * > --------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Parasoft > Error proof Web apps, automate testing & more. > Download & eval WebKing and get a free book. > www.parasoft.com/bulletproofapps1 > _______________________________________________ > Indic-computing-devel mailing list > http://indic-computing.sourceforge.net/ > Ind...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/indic-computing-devel > [Other Indic-Computing mailing lists available: -users, -standards, > -announce] > > ----------------------------------------------------- Dr. U.B. Pavanaja Editor, Vishva Kannada World's first Internet magazine in Kannada http://www.vishvakannada.com/ Note: I don't worry about pselling mixtakes |
|
From: Guntupalli K. <kar...@fr...> - 2003-07-14 09:03:11
|
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 01:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Krishnamurthy Nagarajan <kn...@ya...> wrote: > > --- Guntupalli Karunakar <kar...@fr...> > wrote: > > > > Actually, it can be. The same goes for thra/tra > > and gya/jna/gna. > > > Lexically there is absolutely no difference > > between half ka + shha > > > and the ksha we are talking about. > > > > > going by that logic aspirated consonants (KHA, GHA, > > TTHA etc) are to > > be composed of the pure consonant + HA sound. > > I think the idea of keeping conjuncts (including > > KSHA, TRA, JNA) out > > of encoding is to minimise, script symbols in view > > of the limited > > space avaialble for encoding (128 code or less code > > points). If there > > were 1000 or more code points available then > > defnitely KSHA & co > > would have been included as characters or akhands. > > Well, there isn't paucity of code points for just 3 > more characters. TRA is surely a conjunct (though > it probably is mentioned as a base char. in some old > texts), GNA also is. However, KSHA is rather unique > and deserves to be identified as a base character, IMO > My point is if you put three then there will be demand to put others too.. the DA , RA, TA forms etc to start with, so better not put any. & its an encoding system being defined not a font. There are some official & linguistic documents which can give more info. maybe ppl in delhi can dig them out from dept of official langs, central hindi directorate or any univ. library (the easiest). Regards, Karunakar -- A Reasonable man adapts himself to the world An Unreasonable man tries to adapt the world to himself So all progress in the world depends on the Unreasonable man - GB Shaw --------------------------- * Indian Linux project * * http://www.indlinux.org * --------------------------- |
|
From: Krishnamurthy N. <kn...@ya...> - 2003-07-14 08:09:17
|
--- Guntupalli Karunakar <kar...@fr...> wrote: > > Actually, it can be. The same goes for thra/tra > and gya/jna/gna. > > Lexically there is absolutely no difference > between half ka + shha > > and the ksha we are talking about. > > > going by that logic aspirated consonants (KHA, GHA, > TTHA etc) are to > be composed of the pure consonant + HA sound. > I think the idea of keeping conjuncts (including > KSHA, TRA, JNA) out > of encoding is to minimise, script symbols in view > of the limited > space avaialble for encoding (128 code or less code > points). If there > were 1000 or more code points available then > defnitely KSHA & co > would have been included as characters or akhands. Well, there isn't paucity of code points for just 3 more characters. TRA is surely a conjunct (though it probably is mentioned as a base char. in some old texts), GNA also is. However, KSHA is rather unique and deserves to be identified as a base character, IMO Nagarajan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com |
|
From: Ajay G. <aja...@ya...> - 2003-07-11 19:00:30
|
Hi Alok, I am glad you remembered. Yes, I have been passively watching the mailing list for a long time for lack of time and lack of a head start. Qt is going to provide support for Indic languages with v3.2. Check this link from Qt3.2 Beta 2- http://www.trolltech.com/newsroom/announcements/00000130.html This means that KDE (and all its applications including its web browser - Konqueror) will also be able to show Indian languages. It will need some work though - like translating menu names, messages etc. So, watch out for new release of KDE that is Qt based. -Ajay --- Alok Kumar <alo...@so...> wrote: > > Hi Ajay, > > > You can also refer to them at > > http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0900.pdf > > Thanks for writing. > If I remember, I wrote to you a long time back, more than half a year > ago and you had mentioned something about qt support for devanagari. > Are you aware of any applications that use it, particularly browsers? > > Regards > Alok __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com |
|
From: Guntupalli K. <kar...@fr...> - 2003-07-11 11:28:58
|
On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 14:33:28 +0100 (BST) Joseph Koshy <a_j...@ya...> wrote: > [The FROM address seems to be wierd] Had sent the mail from web i/f of mail provider. > > > Devanagari numerals (there are variations b/n hindi & marathi ones > > eg. > > digits 8 & 9 etc), are more common in literary works & public > > displays - but > > official language policy by govt mandates use of "indo-arabic > > romanised" > > digits viz 0-9. > > What are the specific differences? This is exactly the kind > of thing that a developer would want to know. Could you > point us to a marathi font with the Marathi "8" and "9" digits. CDAC fonts hav the marathi versions only, for digits 5, 8 & 9. So also fonts like raghu & mangal. Also consonants JHA had a different form ( resembling more like a BHA with mirrored TA attached to right of vertical bar ), usage of this had been discontinued though in fav of current form. The digits forms are widely used in north. I forgot how 9 was but forms for 5 & 8 are drawn in attached graphic. Regards, Karunakar -- A Reasonable man adapts himself to the world An Unreasonable man tries to adapt the world to himself So all progress in the world depends on the Unreasonable man - GB Shaw --------------------------- * Indian Linux project * * http://www.indlinux.org * --------------------------- |
|
From: Guntupalli K. <kar...@fr...> - 2003-07-11 10:27:26
|
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 02:06:12 -0600 alo...@so... wrote: > Krishnamurthy Nagarajan writes: > > > > > Well, one may 'combine' glyphs to create 'ksha' but it > > stands on its own as a consonant (it has its own > > 'gunintha' in Kannada and Telugu and Hindi) and its > > What's a gunintha? Its the barakhadi in devanagari ( consonant with all vowel signs applied ) > > > pronunciation can't be systhesised from say 'ka' and > > 'sha'. So, it has to be a separate consonant. For > > Actually, it can be. The same goes for thra/tra and gya/jna/gna. > Lexically there is absolutely no difference between half ka + shha > and the ksha we are talking about. > going by that logic aspirated consonants (KHA, GHA, TTHA etc) are to be composed of the pure consonant + HA sound. I think the idea of keeping conjuncts (including KSHA, TRA, JNA) out of encoding is to minimise, script symbols in view of the limited space avaialble for encoding (128 code or less code points). If there were 1000 or more code points available then defnitely KSHA & co would have been included as characters or akhands. Regards, Karunakar -- A Reasonable man adapts himself to the world An Unreasonable man tries to adapt the world to himself So all progress in the world depends on the Unreasonable man - GB Shaw --------------------------- * Indian Linux project * * http://www.indlinux.org * --------------------------- |
|
From: Krishnamurthy N. <kn...@ya...> - 2003-07-11 10:03:35
|
--- alo...@so... wrote: > Krishnamurthy Nagarajan writes: > > > > > Well, one may 'combine' glyphs to create 'ksha' > but it > > stands on its own as a consonant (it has its own > > 'gunintha' in Kannada and Telugu and Hindi) and > its > > What's a gunintha? Oh, sorry, I forgetfully used that term (relevant only in the context of Telugu and Kannana). It's the basic consonant + vowel conjunct series (like 'ka', 'kaa', 'ki, 'kee' ...) > Actually, it can be. The same goes for thra/tra and > gya/jna/gna. > Lexically there is absolutely no difference between > half ka + shha and the > ksha we are talking about. > > We've all been studying the three as separate > characters in school, but they > are not basic consonants, but conjuncts ie > sanyuktakshars. Yes, I am very very aware of the lexical structure of at least four languages, including Hindi. In theory, Tra is just a conjunct. Gna too. But Ksha is rather distinct, though it can be synthesised from 'ka' and 'sha'. And the other two also can be synthesized from the respective constituent consonants. But historically, they have been documented in the script (a'ksha'ramala) as distinct letters. So, it may be worth documenting the fact in the handbook. That's all I wanted to convey. Nagarajan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com |
|
From: Krishnamurthy N. <kn...@ya...> - 2003-07-11 09:55:06
|
--- Jyotirmoy Saikia <jyo...@ya...> wrote: > Ksha, Tra, Gna's are not consonants. These are > conjuncts, consisting of two (or more) consonants > with a HALANT in between. Tra is a conjunct, Gna is probably a conjunct but Ksha is not. Yes, I do know how consonants are combined in Indian languages (having been familiar with Hindi and three south Indian languages). You could download my translib from sourceforge CVS tree (indic-computing project) and check out whether my understanding is correct or not. The point is, Ksha, Tra (or thra) and Gna have been histtorically included as distinct consonants in the script. It's worth documenting that fact in the handbook. Nagarajan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com |
|
From: Jyotirmoy S. <jyo...@ya...> - 2003-07-11 08:17:34
|
--- Krishnamurthy Nagarajan <kn...@ya...> wrote: > > --- "Dr. U.B. Pavanaja" <pav...@vi...> > wrote: > > > > > > Consonant list - 'ksha', 'tra' and 'Gna' are > > missing > > > (actually I prefer the Roman phonetic equivalent > > > 'thra' instead of 'tra'). > > > > They are actually combinations. You can get their > > independent > > display forms by using the GSUB rule of opentype > > font (the > > lookup Akhand). > > Well, one may 'combine' glyphs to create 'ksha' but > it > stands on its own as a consonant (it has its own > 'gunintha' in Kannada and Telugu and Hindi) and its > pronunciation can't be systhesised from say 'ka' and > 'sha'. So, it has to be a separate consonant. For > historical reasons, one should include all the > letters > of the script (so, better to include thra and Gna). Ksha, Tra, Gna's are not consonants. These are conjuncts, consisting of two (or more) consonants with a HALANT in between. The general rule for combination of two consonants is this: CONSONANT_1 HALANT CONSONANT_2 -> HALF_CONSONANT_1 CONSONANT_2 The right hand-side is a composite character. Conjunts like Ksha, Tra, Jna etc are special cases of these composite characters,or, you can say that the conjunts are some exceptions, wherein the consituents consonants merge to form a totally new shape(glyph). Character codes like ISCII, Unicode etc shouldn't bother about these conjuncts. It's the particular open type font which should take care of these. If the open-type font is unavailable, we need a converter to translate the character codes to the glyphs codes. Jyotirmoy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com |
|
From: <alo...@so...> - 2003-07-11 08:06:18
|
Krishnamurthy Nagarajan writes: > > Well, one may 'combine' glyphs to create 'ksha' but it > stands on its own as a consonant (it has its own > 'gunintha' in Kannada and Telugu and Hindi) and its What's a gunintha? > pronunciation can't be systhesised from say 'ka' and > 'sha'. So, it has to be a separate consonant. For Actually, it can be. The same goes for thra/tra and gya/jna/gna. Lexically there is absolutely no difference between half ka + shha and the ksha we are talking about. We've all been studying the three as separate characters in school, but they are not basic consonants, but conjuncts ie sanyuktakshars. |
|
From: Dr. U.B. P. <pav...@vi...> - 2003-07-11 07:40:35
|
> > > Consonant list - 'ksha', 'tra' and 'Gna' are > > missing > > > (actually I prefer the Roman phonetic equivalent > > > 'thra' instead of 'tra'). > > > > They are actually combinations. You can get their > > independent > > display forms by using the GSUB rule of opentype > > font (the > > lookup Akhand). > > Well, one may 'combine' glyphs to create 'ksha' but it > stands on its own as a consonant (it has its own > 'gunintha' in Kannada and Telugu and Hindi) and its > pronunciation can't be systhesised from say 'ka' and > 'sha'. So, it has to be a separate consonant. For > historical reasons, one should include all the letters > of the script (so, better to include thra and Gna). No. ksha, tra and jna are from Sanskrit. Some books about Kannada alphabet list tehm. But the authentic books don't list them. > > In general, better to look at Unicode chart and see > > whether all of them are covered. > > Instead, it's better to refer to standard text books > on the scripts/languages in question. Agree. -Pavanaja ----------------------------------------------------- Dr. U.B. Pavanaja Editor, Vishva Kannada World's first Internet magazine in Kannada http://www.vishvakannada.com/ Note: I don't worry about pselling mixtakes |
|
From: Krishnamurthy N. <kn...@ya...> - 2003-07-11 07:13:30
|
--- "Dr. U.B. Pavanaja" <pav...@vi...> wrote: > > > Consonant list - 'ksha', 'tra' and 'Gna' are > missing > > (actually I prefer the Roman phonetic equivalent > > 'thra' instead of 'tra'). > > They are actually combinations. You can get their > independent > display forms by using the GSUB rule of opentype > font (the > lookup Akhand). Well, one may 'combine' glyphs to create 'ksha' but it stands on its own as a consonant (it has its own 'gunintha' in Kannada and Telugu and Hindi) and its pronunciation can't be systhesised from say 'ka' and 'sha'. So, it has to be a separate consonant. For historical reasons, one should include all the letters of the script (so, better to include thra and Gna). > > "matras" actually refer to "vowel signs" and not > "half-consonants". ok. > > In general, better to look at Unicode chart and see > whether all of them are covered. Instead, it's better to refer to standard text books on the scripts/languages in question. Nagarajan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com |
|
From: Dr. U.B. P. <pav...@vi...> - 2003-07-11 05:14:43
|
> About 'phonetic' representation of letters of the
> script : though there is no 'standard' to express
> Indian languages/scripts in Roman phonetic script,
> several developers/apps have been following some
> 'unwritten' standards (itrans, varamozhi, baraha etc
> etc). Just check out those and attempt to synch up
> with sync up with the current 'unwritten' stds (like
> giving alternate representations).
There is a representation available at TDIL web-site. I am not
sure whether they have notified it and made it a national
standard (BIS) like ISCII.
> What is vowel #8 (ee) ? It's just after 'e', so I am
> assuming it's the elongated version of 'e', but I am
> not sure if it exists in the languages that use
> Devanagari (AFAIK, only South Indian languages have
> it). Same Q with vowel #10 ('oo'). Actually 'oo' is a
> nice representation for the elongated version of 'u'
> (like in moong dal). Can't understand vowels 11 and
> 12.
Yes. These are mostly used by South-Indian languages.
> Several consonants (mostly represented by the original
> consonant with a 'dot' below) have been added for
> Urdu. Pls mention them.
They are called Nukta variants. Unicode chart for Devanagari
lists them as separate characters. In the latest Unicode for
Kannada, Nukta has been addded. In case of Kannada Nukta is a
separate character and not every Nukta variant of consonants
have been mentioned as done in Devanagari (this is appropriate).
Probably their idea is to give them separate position
(Deavanagari) in the collation chart, which makes sense.
> Consonant list - 'ksha', 'tra' and 'Gna' are missing
> (actually I prefer the Roman phonetic equivalent
> 'thra' instead of 'tra').
They are actually combinations. You can get their independent
display forms by using the GSUB rule of opentype font (the
lookup Akhand).
> Pls mention that 'mathras' - that is half-consonants -
> are graphically 'partial' consonants and they add on
> before/below the 'base' consonant to generate
> 'samyukthaaksharas'.
"matras" actually refer to "vowel signs" and not "half-
consonants".
There is no place for half-consonants in Unicode chart as it is
for the opentype font to take care of these extra glyphs needed.
> Conjuncts with multiple combinations (C*V) - you have
> shown theoritical possibilities, but just about a few
> thousands are practically legal/valid. Would be better
> to mention it.
The total number of possible combinations of V,C,CV,CCV, etc.
exceeds 15,000!
> Specials - in addition to anuswar, I think visarg
> (like the ':' symbol) needs to be mentioned.
Also chandrabindu (0901).
> Double vertical bar - one of the vedic specials (e.g
> used at the end of a shlok)
Its Unicode value is 0965.
In general, better to look at Unicode chart and see whether all
of them are covered.
Rgds,
Pavanaja
-----------------------------------------------------
Dr. U.B. Pavanaja
Editor, Vishva Kannada
World's first Internet magazine in Kannada
http://www.vishvakannada.com/
Note: I don't worry about pselling mixtakes
|
|
From: Dr. U.B. P. <pav...@vi...> - 2003-07-11 05:14:36
|
How about using the chart/glyphs from TDIL document? There should not be any problem, I guess. -Pavanaja > >> You can also refer to them at > >> http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0900.pdf > > > > All possible sources, including the ones on the chart would still be worth > using. No single font will have all the glyphs anyway. > > The question is: are there any copyright issues wrt to the pdf? > http://www.unicode.org/copyright.html says, > 7. Modification is not permitted with respect to this document. All copies > of this document must be verbatim. > > I'm not very sure if the permissions are there, although it does seem absurd > not to be able to use the charts. ----------------------------------------------------- Dr. U.B. Pavanaja Editor, Vishva Kannada World's first Internet magazine in Kannada http://www.vishvakannada.com/ Note: I don't worry about pselling mixtakes |
|
From: Dr. U.B. P. <pav...@vi...> - 2003-07-11 05:14:22
|
> > Devanagari uses decimal digits viz 0 thru 9 > > I thought the "hindi" numerals had a different shape from > the "Roman" 0..9 ? Yes. Devanagari has its own numerals. They are given place in Unicode chart. >> [Add sound file for pronunciation] > > I initially thought about adding IPA symbols (international > phonetic alphabet) against each indic character displayed in > the handbook. However, on reflection, I came to the conclusion > that this would be (a) misleading: because pronounciation > varies widely even among 'native' speakers and (b) also probably > unnecessary -- the way humans pronounce a given word or > character is not relevant to a computer handling text. I also agree with this. -Pavanaja ----------------------------------------------------- Dr. U.B. Pavanaja Editor, Vishva Kannada World's first Internet magazine in Kannada http://www.vishvakannada.com/ Note: I don't worry about pselling mixtakes |
|
From: Krishnamurthy N. <kn...@ya...> - 2003-07-11 04:32:00
|
Dear Ajay, The signs in the range 093C-0954 are dependent vowel signs, not the half-consonant signs. The very purpose of the handbook is to get the developers properly educated in the Indian language/scripts details in the context of computerization. btw, pls address me by my first name (Nagarajan) Nagarajan --- Ajay Guleria <aja...@ya...> wrote: > Krishna, > > Does it miss Mathras!! Did you look at the complete > chart or am I missing your > question completely? Check for Unicode 093C to 0954. > > -Ajay > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com |
|
From: Ajay G. <aja...@ya...> - 2003-07-10 18:20:27
|
Krishna, Does it miss Mathras!! Did you look at the complete chart or am I missing your question completely? Check for Unicode 093C to 0954. -Ajay --- Krishnamurthy Nagarajan <kn...@ya...> wrote: > > --- Ajay Guleria <aja...@ya...> wrote: > > > > is interested in granting permission to use their > > font glyphs for the > > > handbook, please let us know. > > > > You can also refer to them at > > http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0900.pdf > > Well, this is an obvious answer for all of us. The > issue is that it covers only basic letters. So, we can > use the glyphs for basic letters and other marks (if > you can cut/paste them from the pdf file). But it > completely misses all the mathras (half-consonants) > and we would need to illustrate them in the handbook. > > cheers, > Nagarajan > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com |
3 messages has been excluded from this view by a project administrator.
