From: Don A. <don...@co...> - 2004-09-28 14:51:57
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Now that we have the 1.1.1 development release out, I think we have the date issue somewhat under control. We still have more work to go there to handle all the locale issues, but I think we are on the right track. The next issue that probably needs to be tackled is Names. Right now, we do a fairly decent job of handling western European and North American names. However, this is not the full extent. We need to: 1) Identify name types that we need to support 2) Identify what type of support is needed. I know that one of the major issues we have is in the handling of patronymic and matronymic names. From what I can tell, how they are handled may be different between locations. Could someone provide an overview of what we need here? I'm also aware that some cultures list the surname first. Instead of the western method of using Given_name Surname, a name may be listed as Surname Given_name. Can someone provide more information on these name types? Thanks. Don |
From: Alex R. <sh...@al...> - 2004-09-28 15:27:11
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On 09/28/2004 09:51:45 AM, Don Allingham wrote: > I know that one of the major issues we have is in the handling of=20 > patronymic and matronymic names. From what I can tell, how they are=20 > handled may be different between locations. Could someone provide an=20 > overview of what we need here? In Russian, there's a necessary patronimyc name to every person. It is composed from the father's name plus an ending. The ending itself is {-ovich,-evich,-ich} for males, and {-ovna,-evna,-inichna} for females, but the exact way of how the father's name and the ending are combined differ slightly in unpredictable ways :-) Apart from technical details, such a name: 1. May give a pretty good clue for a father's first name 4. May give a pretty good clue for a person's gender 2. Must not be used in last-name-based sorting 3. May be guessed when a new child is added to the family with some degree of certainty So far I've been entering patronymic names as a middle name (e.g. Given name: Ivan Ivanovich, Family Name: Petrov), but it would be nice to have patronymic to have its own field. Another aspect of Russian (and many oher slavic) names is the gender-specific last names. E.g. Ivanov's daughter would have a last name of Ivanova ("a" at the end), which for all goals and purposes (except grammar) is considered to be the same as Ivanov. So, Ivanova should not be put into a separate node tree from Ivanov. Instead, they should appear under the same node. It was proposed to have two fields for the Family name: one for sorting purposes and another one for the actual usage in reports, websites, exports, etc, see RFE at=20 http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=3Ddetail&aid=3D941644&group_i= d=3D25770&atid=3D385140 For most of the names, both sorting and displayed names would be identical (or one of them just empty), but for gender- specific names they would we different. > I'm also aware that some cultures list the surname first. Instead of the=20 > western method of using Given_name Surname, a name may be listed as=20 > Surname Given_name. Can someone provide more information on these name=20 > types? In Russia, both are common ways. Surname Given_name is more formal, so this is how it appears in most documents. Actually, it's "Surname Given Patronymic" in the documents :-) Alex --=20 Alexander Roitman http://ebner.neuroscience.umn.edu/people/alex.html Dept. of Neuroscience, Lions Research Building 2001 6th Street SE, Minneapolis, MN 55455 Tel (612) 625-7566 FAX (612) 626-9201 |
From: Leonid M. <le...@le...> - 2004-09-28 17:47:06
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Dear Alex Roitman, Once you wrote about "Re: [Gramps-devel] Patronymic, matronymic, and other name types": > On 09/28/2004 09:51:45 AM, Don Allingham wrote: > >I know that one of the major issues we have is in the handling of > >patronymic and matronymic names. From what I can tell, how they are > >handled may be different between locations. Could someone provide an > >overview of what we need here? > > In Russian, there's a necessary patronimyc name to every person. It is > composed from the father's name plus an ending. The ending itself is > {-ovich,-evich,-ich} for males, and {-ovna,-evna,-inichna} for > females, but the exact way of how the father's name and the ending > are combined differ slightly in unpredictable ways :-) True. One of the ways to handle it would be to use a predefined list of names and what comes of them when used as patronimyc or matronymic. Example: "Sergey" => ["Sergeevich", "Sergeevna"], "Leonid" => ["Leonidovich", "Leonidovna"], ... This way has the advantage of speed and correctness, while being limited on flexibility. In other words, list of names will have to be updated. (But it can be left to a user). Having patronymic/matronymic names be generated based on a set of rules will have lots of problems, since rules differ from place to place and there are many special cases. > Apart from technical details, such a name: > 1. May give a pretty good clue for a father's first name > 4. May give a pretty good clue for a person's gender > 2. Must not be used in last-name-based sorting > 3. May be guessed when a new child is added to the > family with some degree of certainty All true. :) > So far I've been entering patronymic names as a middle name > (e.g. Given name: Ivan Ivanovich, Family Name: Petrov), > but it would be nice to have patronymic to have its own field. I haven't been using them at all so far, hoping that they could be calculated automatically. > Another aspect of Russian (and many oher slavic) names is the > gender-specific last names. E.g. Ivanov's daughter would have > a last name of Ivanova ("a" at the end), which for all goals and > purposes (except grammar) is considered to be the same as > Ivanov. So, Ivanova should not be put into a separate node tree > from Ivanov. Instead, they should appear under the same node. This issue is currently more important than patronymic names. Database statistics and other reporting tools get really wrong because of this. > It was proposed to have two fields for the Family name: one > for sorting purposes and another one for the actual usage > in reports, websites, exports, etc, see RFE at > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=941644&group_id=25770&atid=385140 > > For most of the names, both sorting and displayed names > would be identical (or one of them just empty), but for gender- > specific names they would we different. Excellent idea! > >I'm also aware that some cultures list the surname first. Instead of the > >western method of using Given_name Surname, a name may be listed as > >Surname Given_name. Can someone provide more information on these name > >types? > > In Russia, both are common ways. Surname Given_name is more formal, > so this is how it appears in most documents. > Actually, it's "Surname Given Patronymic" in the documents :-) I guess this is just a matter of selecting the output format. It is easy to support whatever user wants with a set of macros. Like: #FIRST_NAME, #LAST_NAME, #FATHER_FIRST_NAME, etc. P.S.: Nice to see you guys again after such a long break from my side. :) -- Leonid Mamchenkov. http://mamchenkov.net |
From: Don A. <don...@co...> - 2004-09-28 19:13:53
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Alex, Thanks for the info. I'll have a sample screenshot for you later today. Question: Do names that have patronymic names tend to have family name prefixes ("van", "de", etc.)? If not, then we can switch the meaning (and label) on the Family Prefix field for certain locales. Don Alex Roitman wrote: > On 09/28/2004 09:51:45 AM, Don Allingham wrote: > >> I know that one of the major issues we have is in the handling of >> patronymic and matronymic names. From what I can tell, how they are >> handled may be different between locations. Could someone provide an >> overview of what we need here? > > > In Russian, there's a necessary patronimyc name to every person. It is > composed from the father's name plus an ending. The ending itself is > {-ovich,-evich,-ich} for males, and {-ovna,-evna,-inichna} for > females, but the exact way of how the father's name and the ending > are combined differ slightly in unpredictable ways :-) > > Apart from technical details, such a name: > 1. May give a pretty good clue for a father's first name > 4. May give a pretty good clue for a person's gender > 2. Must not be used in last-name-based sorting > 3. May be guessed when a new child is added to the > family with some degree of certainty > > So far I've been entering patronymic names as a middle name > (e.g. Given name: Ivan Ivanovich, Family Name: Petrov), > but it would be nice to have patronymic to have its own field. > > Another aspect of Russian (and many oher slavic) names is the > gender-specific last names. E.g. Ivanov's daughter would have > a last name of Ivanova ("a" at the end), which for all goals and > purposes (except grammar) is considered to be the same as > Ivanov. So, Ivanova should not be put into a separate node tree > from Ivanov. Instead, they should appear under the same node. > > It was proposed to have two fields for the Family name: one > for sorting purposes and another one for the actual usage > in reports, websites, exports, etc, see RFE at > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=941644&group_id=25770&atid=385140 > > > For most of the names, both sorting and displayed names > would be identical (or one of them just empty), but for gender- > specific names they would we different. > >> I'm also aware that some cultures list the surname first. Instead of >> the western method of using Given_name Surname, a name may be listed >> as Surname Given_name. Can someone provide more information on these >> name types? > > > In Russia, both are common ways. Surname Given_name is more formal, > so this is how it appears in most documents. > Actually, it's "Surname Given Patronymic" in the documents :-) > > Alex > |
From: Alex R. <sh...@al...> - 2004-09-28 19:21:01
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On 09/28/2004 02:13:39 PM, Don Allingham wrote: >=20 > Question: Do names that have patronymic names tend to have family name=20 > prefixes ("van", "de", etc.)? If not, then we can switch the meaning=20 > (and label) on the Family Prefix field for certain locales. As I said, in Russia patronymic name is a must. Anybody born in Russia has a patronymic name in their birth certificate. The prefixes are rarely used for native Russian names, but they could be present, in principle, in names of foreign origin. So, while it is not very common, it could be that a person can have both the prefix and the patronymic name. E.g. a famous general of the 1812 war had family name "Barklai de Tolli", and he had a patronymic name too. It seems like we need a separate field/attribute for these names. Alex --=20 Alexander Roitman http://ebner.neuroscience.umn.edu/people/alex.html Dept. of Neuroscience, Lions Research Building 2001 6th Street SE, Minneapolis, MN 55455 Tel (612) 625-7566 FAX (612) 626-9201 |
From: Don A. <don...@co...> - 2004-09-28 19:27:46
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Alex Roitman wrote: > On 09/28/2004 02:13:39 PM, Don Allingham wrote: > >> >> Question: Do names that have patronymic names tend to have family name >> prefixes ("van", "de", etc.)? If not, then we can switch the meaning >> (and label) on the Family Prefix field for certain locales. > > > As I said, in Russia patronymic name is a must. Anybody born in Russia > has a patronymic name in their birth certificate. > > The prefixes are rarely used for native Russian names, but they > could be present, in principle, in names of foreign origin. So, > while it is not very common, it could be that a person can have > both the prefix and the patronymic name. E.g. a famous general > of the 1812 war had family name "Barklai de Tolli", and he had > a patronymic name too. > > It seems like we need a separate field/attribute for these names. What I'm working on is a modified NameEditor. It has all the fields. However, on the EditPerson dialog, we have a "Primary Name". I'm dropping the "Source" and "Note" buttons in favor of an "Edit" button. The common fields will be on the Edit Person dialog, and to get the extended, you will need to hit the "Edit" button. So if prefixes are rare, but patronymic are required, it makes since that you have to hit the Edit button to the the rare field, but the common should be on the main page. Don |
From: Julio S. <jul...@gm...> - 2004-09-28 20:25:47
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On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:13:39 -0600, Don Allingham <don...@co...> wrote: > Alex, > > Thanks for the info. I'll have a sample screenshot for you later today. > > Question: Do names that have patronymic names tend to have family name > prefixes ("van", "de", etc.)? If not, then we can switch the meaning > (and label) on the Family Prefix field for certain locales. Some locales that might seem not to need patronymics used them in the past. This is the case for Spain where, before the Council of Trent we used patronymics. My own last name was patronymic in origin, indicating that one of my ancestors had Sancho as his first name. He was probably a commoner without any other name. Really, the amount of data before the Council of Trent is scarce, but it would be good to support it. Likewise, families that span several countries might use different rules in different branches at different times. I suppose it would be a nightmare to implement, but would be awesome. As is well known, the current style we use mixes the first family names from our father and mother to form our two family names. It would be nice if now that surname handling is being overhauled better support could be achieved. IIRC, GEDCOM permits several family names in the SURN field if separated by commas. I don't think GRAMPS does anything smart with that, but I haven't tried it. The problem with databases with people of Hispanic origin is that they grow quickly to a large number of surnames and it becomes difficult to see the picture of how they relate to each other since they are all scattered under different headings. An option to group them by first family name would probably helpful if the first family name could be determined somehow (more on this later). And now that you mention it, a comment about prefixes. In Spain, currently, prefixes are not related to the presence of patronymics, though after a real patronymic, the last name used to have a prefix starting with 'de' or a compound form of it ('del'). In practice, prefixes in Spanish are beautifiers that will come and go from one generation to the next so they should be ignored for processing, sorting and matching. However, their presence is sometime a sign of prestige and, thus, people would object to their outright omission. The current arrangement with placing the prefix or prefixes in the prefix field is good (another common arrangement is leaving them at the end of the given name). However, this does not help with the prefix(es) at the beginning of the second name, with the additional problem that a connector 'y' (or 'i' in Catalan-speaking areas) might join both parts. So if I am handling 'Juan de la Torre y del Olmo', he would be a son of a man named 'Torre' (very possibly 'de la Torre' and a woman called 'Olmo' (very possibly 'del Olmo'), but there is no way to express that Torre and Olmo are the operative tokens here and the rest is adornment to be carried around but devoid of meaning. There is no algorithm that given a string can split the two family names correctly in the absence of the optional connector. Sometimes it is just undecidable without additional information, so a way to mark both names would be great. I wonder if some smart use of commas in the surname could help. Maybe we can use that? Julio |