gamedevlists-windows — List for discussing game development on the Windows platform

RE: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfield)

[Jon W. <hp...@mi...>]

> Ideally I'd like something that
>
> Supports an alpha channel
> Supports 32, 24, & 8 bit images
>
> I'm not sure if anything out there actually fits the bill for this though.
> I've thought about writing a plugin for Photoshop to supported saving to
> targa's that fit the above, but it looks like a whole lot of pain.

PhotoShop 6 saves .tga files like this just fine. Make sure you have an
actual
Alpah1 channel by creating a new channel in the Channels window, and you're
golden. I use 'em all the time for quick experiments. (To load a tga, read
18 bytes, extract size, read 4*width*height bytes and you're done :-) It
also
seems to load them back in just fine. Haven't tried 7 yet -- did they make
it suck?

For production use, the deliverable size is really important, so we save the
color channel as a JPEG, and the alpha as grayscale JPEG (for translucency)
or 1-bit PNG (for cut-out). Our material system can mix/match and interlace
these as appropriate on asset load. Artists understand it, because Max has
a separate Opacity channel from Diffuse Color channel.

Cheers,

			/ h+

RE: [GD-Windows] Finding routine that's crashing

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

Well, found it.  The reason I was having such a hard time finding it is
because apparently it's a dynamically generated piece of code that the
NVidia drivers make, therefore there was no symbol or module associated
with that address space.

Loverly.

Thanks for everyone that helped though, at least I've now found the joy
of WinDbg =)

Brian


> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li... 
> [mailto:gam...@li...] On 
> Behalf Of Brian Sharon
> Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 12:23 PM
> To: Rich; gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Windows] Finding routine that's crashing 
> 
> 
> StackWalk() gives you the stack trace.
> 
> Robbins' Debugging Windows Apps covers this in some detail as 
> well.  It doesn't give you anything that you won't get from 
> inside the debugger though - it's most useful for logging 
> crashes on customer or QA machines.
> 
> --brian
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rich [mailto:leg...@xm...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 12:16 PM
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: Re: [GD-Windows] Finding routine that's crashing 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > In article <555...@gu...>,
> >     Ben Carter <be...@gu...>  writes:
> > 
> > > [...] We've got an exception
> > > handler in our current project that can do a stack trace 
> and reports 
> > > everything it finds, with symbols if available - if you 
> can't track 
> > > down the information give me a shout and I'll see if I can
> > extract the
> > > relevant code snippets for resolving the addresses.
> > 
> > This would be very handy, if you're willing to share!
> > 
> > I can find SymGetSymFromAddr in MSDN, but I'm fuzzy on how 
> you get the 
> > stack trace.
> 
> 
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> 

RE: [GD-Windows] Finding routine that's crashing

[Brian S. <bs...@mi...>]

StackWalk() gives you the stack trace.

Robbins' Debugging Windows Apps covers this in some detail as well.  It
doesn't give you anything that you won't get from inside the debugger
though - it's most useful for logging crashes on customer or QA
machines.

--brian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich [mailto:leg...@xm...]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 12:16 PM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-Windows] Finding routine that's crashing=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> In article <555...@gu...>,
>     Ben Carter <be...@gu...>  writes:
>=20
> > [...] We've got an exception
> > handler in our current project that can do a stack trace and reports
> > everything it finds, with symbols if available - if you can't track
> > down the information give me a shout and I'll see if I can=20
> extract the
> > relevant code snippets for resolving the addresses.=20
>=20
> This would be very handy, if you're willing to share!
>=20
> I can find SymGetSymFromAddr in MSDN, but I'm fuzzy on how you get the
> stack trace.

RE: [GD-Windows] Finding routine that's crashing

[Paul B. <pa...@mi...>]

Check out John Robbins bugslayer code.  You might find it
at his site
http://www.wintellect.com/about/instructors/robbins/default.asp

Paul


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich [mailto:leg...@xm...]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 2:16 PM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-Windows] Finding routine that's crashing=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> In article <555...@gu...>,
>     Ben Carter <be...@gu...>  writes:
>=20
> > [...] We've got an exception
> > handler in our current project that can do a stack trace=20
> and reports=20
> > everything it finds, with symbols if available - if you can't track=20
> > down the information give me a shout and I'll see if I can=20
> extract the=20
> > relevant code snippets for resolving the addresses.
>=20
> This would be very handy, if you're willing to share!
>=20
> I can find SymGetSymFromAddr in MSDN, but I'm fuzzy on how=20
> you get the stack trace.
> --=20
> Ask me about my upcoming book on Direct3D from Addison-Wesley!
>   Direct3D Book <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
>     izfree: Open source tools for Windows Installer
>             <http://izfree.sourceforge.net>
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by: Dice - The leading online=20
> job board for high-tech professionals. Search and apply for=20
> tech jobs today! http://seeker.dice.com/seeker.epl?rel_code=3D31
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-windows mailing list=20
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-windows
> Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D555
>=20

Re: [GD-Windows] Finding routine that's crashing

[Rich <leg...@xm...>]

In article <555...@gu...>,
    Ben Carter <be...@gu...>  writes:

> [...] We've got an exception
> handler in our current project that can do a stack trace and reports
> everything it finds, with symbols if available - if you can't track
> down the information give me a shout and I'll see if I can extract the
> relevant code snippets for resolving the addresses. 

This would be very handy, if you're willing to share!

I can find SymGetSymFromAddr in MSDN, but I'm fuzzy on how you get the
stack trace.
-- 
Ask me about my upcoming book on Direct3D from Addison-Wesley!
  Direct3D Book <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
    izfree: Open source tools for Windows Installer
            <http://izfree.sourceforge.net>

RE: [GD-Windows] Finding routine that's crashing

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

Woo-hoo!  WinDBG! =)  It feels like one step above the - prompt and
debug.com

So far I've got it to repro in WinDBG, but it's rather frustrating since
apparently I'm in the middle of nowhere (my current address doesn't map
to any loaded modules), but the disasm I'm looking at is very valid
(typical stack frame munging, unmunging, some work in between, pop/ret
at the end).  

Grrr, the docs and interface leave a bit to be desired.

Thanks, I'll give this a go for a bit.

Brian

Re: [GD-Windows] Finding routine that's crashing

[Ben C. <be...@gu...>]

On Wednesday, July 31, 2002, 6:40:45 PM, someone wrote:

> I'm getting an exception deep inside some call such that I don't have a
> call stack.  I'm using MSVC6.  I'm not sure what's causing it or where
> it happens, and it appears to be timing dependent (i.e. if I step
> through the code, it doesn't happen).

> Is there a simple way given an address to look up what function I'm in?
> Using a MAP file works for app code, but this appears to be an entry
> point somewhere deeper in the system so the address I'm seeing isn't in
> the MAP file.

 You can use the ImageHlp DLLs to get the symbols for a given location
in an app's address space. There's some sample code in MSDN for doing
this (searching for ImageHlp should find it). We've got an exception
handler in our current project that can do a stack trace and reports
everything it finds, with symbols if available - if you can't track
down the information give me a shout and I'll see if I can extract the
relevant code snippets for resolving the addresses. 

-- 
Ben Carter - Neko Technologies - be...@gu...
http://www.neko-tech.com/ - http://www.absoluteterror.com/
---------------------------------PGP Key available on request---
"Broken mirror, a million shades of light,
 the old echo fades away. 
 But just you and I can find the answer, 
 and then we can run to the end of the world."
                                - Small of two pieces, Xenogears

RE: [GD-Windows] Finding routine that's crashing

[Brian S. <bs...@mi...>]

You can get OS symbols here:

http://www.microsoft.com/ddk/debugging/symbolpkg.asp=20

You can also try stopping immediately on exceptions (start your app,
then go to Debug->Exceptions->Stop Always).  That might put on the
brakes before your call stack gets trashed.

good luck!  --b.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Hook [mailto:bri...@py...]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:41 AM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Windows] Finding routine that's crashing
>=20
>=20
> I'm getting an exception deep inside some call such that I=20
> don't have a
> call stack.  I'm using MSVC6.  I'm not sure what's causing it or where
> it happens, and it appears to be timing dependent (i.e. if I step
> through the code, it doesn't happen).
>=20
> Is there a simple way given an address to look up what=20
> function I'm in?
> Using a MAP file works for app code, but this appears to be an entry
> point somewhere deeper in the system so the address I'm=20
> seeing isn't in
> the MAP file.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Brian

[GD-Windows] Finding routine that's crashing

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

I'm getting an exception deep inside some call such that I don't have a
call stack.  I'm using MSVC6.  I'm not sure what's causing it or where
it happens, and it appears to be timing dependent (i.e. if I step
through the code, it doesn't happen).

Is there a simple way given an address to look up what function I'm in?
Using a MAP file works for app code, but this appears to be an entry
point somewhere deeper in the system so the address I'm seeing isn't in
the MAP file.

Thanks,

Brian

Re: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfi eld)

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

Rich <leg...@xm...> wrote:


> I don't know if TIFF supports palettised images w/alpha off the top of
> my head.  Its been a long time since I looked at the TIFF 6 spec.

IIRC it does, while at HVS I used it for NBA Inside Drive 2000's GUI images.

  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

RE: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfi eld)

[Phil T. <ph...@mi...>]

That's an interesting point about the PSD.  The flattened version in the
file is of course just the flattened version of the layers that the
artist has active at the time of saving the file.

Another disadvantage of PSD files is that they can be very large
(especially if you have those 30-40 layers).

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hook [mailto:bri...@py...]=20
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 9:40 AM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling
starfi eld)

The problem with TIFF is that it's an extremely cumbersome and
convoluted file format.  TGA is one of the simplest, yet handling it
robustly is still a pain in the ass because of the different origins,
flips, etc. that are possible, in theory, but rarely encountered in
practice.=20

TIFF is about a zillion times worse.

The problem with cooking PSDs directly is that most artists make very
heavily layered PSD files, and from a single PSD may often generate
multiple files.  For example, they may make a GUI mockup consisting of
30-40 layers, and when you ask for a dialog, they just export that
layer.

Getting this to work automagically is trying, to say the least.  The PS7
scripting _might_ be an answer to this.

-Hook



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Re: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfi eld)

[Rich <leg...@xm...>]

In article <001101c238b0$e5038d50$6e01a8c0@HOOKDELL220>,
    Brian Hook <bri...@py...>  writes:

> TIFF is about a zillion times worse.

Yep, that's why I prefer a simpler format like PNG over TIFF.  But if
PS support for PNG is flakey, perhaps TIFF as an exchange format is a
workaround.  When I have to write code that eats TIFF files, I use
libtiff and that works well in handling all the weird TIFF variations
(or at least the most commonly used ones) and if you need to dig
deeper into the TIFF structure for some reason, that option is always
there.

I think when working in an art pipeline, you need to set some policies
for humans that make it easier for the artists and the coders to work
together, but that's just my opinion.  Allowing too much free reign on
either end can cause more problems than it solves.
-- 
Ask me about my upcoming book on Direct3D from Addison-Wesley!
  Direct3D Book <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
    izfree: Open source tools for Windows Installer
            <http://izfree.sourceforge.net>

Re: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfi eld)

[Rich <leg...@xm...>]

In article <F23...@FR...>,
    Andrew Grant <ag...@cl...>  writes:

> resources in their native format and that format also has to be supported by
> 3rd party tools such as photoshop.

Well it seems that the PS support is what's lacking here, even for
something as brain-dead simple as TGA.

> Ideally it'll also support palettised
> images (with alpha) so we can allow artists to control colour reduction.

PNG supports palettised images w/alpha, but the PS support is problematic,
apparently.

> Both TIFFs and PSD seem to fit these requirements which is cool, although
> I'm eyeing PSD with suspicion it being an Adobe thing :)

I don't know if TIFF supports palettised images w/alpha off the top of
my head.  Its been a long time since I looked at the TIFF 6 spec.
-- 
Ask me about my upcoming book on Direct3D from Addison-Wesley!
  Direct3D Book <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
    izfree: Open source tools for Windows Installer
            <http://izfree.sourceforge.net>

RE: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was Algorithms Scrolling starfiel d)

[Andrew G. <ag...@cl...>]

That's an interesting point, I don't know much about PSD but being able to
specify more than 4 channels would be quite attractive.

What sort of experiences have you had working with them? Is it a fairly
static format or something that tends to change significantly with photoshop
versions?


Andrew Grant-
Climax Brighton 



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Teschner [mailto:ph...@mi...]
> Sent: 31 July 2002 17:22
> To: bri...@py...; gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling
> starfield)
> 
> 
> If this is really a stumbling block then you can always write support
> for PSD files.  They are actually pretty easy to use since 
> the flattened
> image is stored at the end of the file in separate color channels
> (r,g,b,a,...).
> 
> This actually let's you do interesting things like allowing 
> the artists
> to create images with more than 4 channels that you then split into
> multiple textures yourself (for example when you need a gloss map in
> addition to all the other color information).
> 
> Plus the artists will like you that much more since they don't need to
> juggle around two file formats.
> 
> Phil
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: brian hook [mailto:bri...@py...] 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 8:11 AM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling
> starfield)
> 
> > What formats are people using for images these days? We're 
> currently 
> using
> > TGA which "suffices" but isn't great due to Adobe less than 
> embracing 
> the
> > concept of alpha channels.
> 
> Photoshop 7 completely and utterly broke TGA support, but you can 
> supposedly go back and get the TGA exporter from PS6 and copy 
> up to PS7 
> and it starts working again.
> 
> This is OT, but damn, Adobe has the most piss poor attitude I've ever 
> seen.  When this TGA screwup was brought to their attention, their 
> response was three fold:
> 
> - testers should have pointed it out to them, hence it's not 
> their fault
> 
> - no one mentioned that alpha was being used "that way" (for games)
> 
> - using alpha channel "that way" is clearly against the spec, 
> and game 
> developers are relying on "broken" behaviour (i.e. TGA 
> support in PS up 
> through PS6), so it's really their fault
> 
> That, coupled with the completely broken PNG support in 
> Photoshop, has 
> just made me really dislike Adobe.
> 
> Anyway, we use TGA, JPG and PNG.  TGA if we need alpha or 16-bit; JPG 
> if we need lots of compression; and PNG if we need the files to be 
> compressed individually.
> 
> -Hook
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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RE: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfi eld)

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

The problem with TIFF is that it's an extremely cumbersome and
convoluted file format.  TGA is one of the simplest, yet handling it
robustly is still a pain in the ass because of the different origins,
flips, etc. that are possible, in theory, but rarely encountered in
practice. 

TIFF is about a zillion times worse.

The problem with cooking PSDs directly is that most artists make very
heavily layered PSD files, and from a single PSD may often generate
multiple files.  For example, they may make a GUI mockup consisting of
30-40 layers, and when you ask for a dialog, they just export that
layer.

Getting this to work automagically is trying, to say the least.  The PS7
scripting _might_ be an answer to this.

-Hook

RE: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfi eld)

[Andrew G. <ag...@cl...>]

TIFFs look interesting, I'll have to check it out.

It's not required that artists use the same format, just preferable. All out
resources are munched into platform specific formats in a build process but
we also have a variety of in-house tools that need to work with these
resources in their native format and that format also has to be supported by
3rd party tools such as photoshop. Ideally it'll also support palettised
images (with alpha) so we can allow artists to control colour reduction.

Both TIFFs and PSD seem to fit these requirements which is cool, although
I'm eyeing PSD with suspicion it being an Adobe thing :)


Andrew Grant-
Climax Brighton 



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich [mailto:leg...@xm...]
> Sent: 31 July 2002 17:13
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling
> starfi eld) 
> 
> 
> 
> Does PhotoShop have problems with TIFF and alpha channels?  Personally
> I don't see that the artist must be required to use the same format
> for editing that the program eats during runtime.  A simple batch file
> or script and ImageMagick can do the conversion between the artist
> pipeline and the program.
> -- 
> Ask me about my upcoming book on Direct3D from Addison-Wesley!
>   Direct3D Book <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
>     izfree: Open source tools for Windows Installer
>             <http://izfree.sourceforge.net>
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by: Dice - The leading online job board
> for high-tech professionals. Search and apply for tech jobs today!
> http://seeker.dice.com/seeker.epl?rel_code=31
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-windows mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-windows
> Archives:
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> 

RE: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfield)

[Phil T. <ph...@mi...>]

If this is really a stumbling block then you can always write support
for PSD files.  They are actually pretty easy to use since the flattened
image is stored at the end of the file in separate color channels
(r,g,b,a,...).

This actually let's you do interesting things like allowing the artists
to create images with more than 4 channels that you then split into
multiple textures yourself (for example when you need a gloss map in
addition to all the other color information).

Plus the artists will like you that much more since they don't need to
juggle around two file formats.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: brian hook [mailto:bri...@py...]=20
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 8:11 AM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Re: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling
starfield)

> What formats are people using for images these days? We're currently=20
using
> TGA which "suffices" but isn't great due to Adobe less than embracing=20
the
> concept of alpha channels.

Photoshop 7 completely and utterly broke TGA support, but you can=20
supposedly go back and get the TGA exporter from PS6 and copy up to PS7=20
and it starts working again.

This is OT, but damn, Adobe has the most piss poor attitude I've ever=20
seen.  When this TGA screwup was brought to their attention, their=20
response was three fold:

- testers should have pointed it out to them, hence it's not their fault

- no one mentioned that alpha was being used "that way" (for games)

- using alpha channel "that way" is clearly against the spec, and game=20
developers are relying on "broken" behaviour (i.e. TGA support in PS up=20
through PS6), so it's really their fault

That, coupled with the completely broken PNG support in Photoshop, has=20
just made me really dislike Adobe.

Anyway, we use TGA, JPG and PNG.  TGA if we need alpha or 16-bit; JPG=20
if we need lots of compression; and PNG if we need the files to be=20
compressed individually.

-Hook




-------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfi eld)

[Rich <leg...@xm...>]

In article <F23...@FR...>,
    Andrew Grant <ag...@cl...>  writes:

> Someone suggested PNG which looks good, but doesn't do palettised alpha
> sadly :(

Yes, it does.
-- 
Ask me about my upcoming book on Direct3D from Addison-Wesley!
  Direct3D Book <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
    izfree: Open source tools for Windows Installer
            <http://izfree.sourceforge.net>

Re: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfi eld)

[Rich <leg...@xm...>]

ImageMagick (<http://www.imagemagick.org/> has command-line arguments
for everything under the sun, supports all formats I've ever seen in
my life and can be controlled through scripts since its CLI is so
rich.  Hell, even PBMPLUS, which is free and over a decade old,
supports scripting from batch files very well.  Of course, PBM+
doesn't support those photoshop plugins and whatnot that is specific
to PhotoShop, but for the kinds of operations I've seen applied in
batch files or scripts it has always worked great.  (I've written
plenty of scripts with both tools myself.)

It helps that they are both open source tools.  Every tool set has its
costs -- with a commercial toolset you hope that the vendor is
responsive to your bug reports and your feature requests.  Once a
commercial vendor stops being responsive, then it is the worst of both
worlds -- you're locked into a proprietary system which you can't
change and they ignore your requests for change.  With an open source
system, usually there is noone you can complain to and get your
requests honored, but at least you can do it yourself if you must.
-- 
Ask me about my upcoming book on Direct3D from Addison-Wesley!
  Direct3D Book <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
    izfree: Open source tools for Windows Installer
            <http://izfree.sourceforge.net>

Re: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfi eld)

[Rich <leg...@xm...>]

Does PhotoShop have problems with TIFF and alpha channels?  Personally
I don't see that the artist must be required to use the same format
for editing that the program eats during runtime.  A simple batch file
or script and ImageMagick can do the conversion between the artist
pipeline and the program.
-- 
Ask me about my upcoming book on Direct3D from Addison-Wesley!
  Direct3D Book <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
    izfree: Open source tools for Windows Installer
            <http://izfree.sourceforge.net>

RE: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfi eld)

[Stefan B. <bo...@te...>]

> Sad to see we're not the only ones bitten by Adobe's TGA zealotism. I
> had a few and completely unproductive email exchanges with Adobe about

> this, in the end I gave up talking to them, and our artists simply 
> continued working with Photoshop 6.

   I found some Japanese utilities here:

     http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA017881/software.html

   One of them is a psd2tga.exe app... I haven't tried it yet so I can't
say whether it works with PS7 or not, or indeed if it is any good!

Cheers,
Stef! :)
--
Stefan Boberg, R&D Manager - Team17 Software Ltd. 
bo...@te...

RE: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfi eld)

[Andrew G. <ag...@cl...>]

You can "fix" (or at least unbreak) this if you take Targa.8BI from PS6 and
place it in the PS7/plugin directory. Not ideal but at least a workaround if
you've upgraded to PS7 for other features.

The other negative point is that I don't believe Photoshop supports alpha in
palletised formats which is a bind. Currently we have to take a 32-bit targa
and use another package to convert it to 8-bit.

I agree with Brian, Adobe's attitude smacks of arrogance and a lack of
knowledge about what their customers are actually using their product for.

Someone suggested PNG which looks good, but doesn't do palettised alpha
sadly :(

Andrew Grant-
Climax Brighton 



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Forsyth [mailto:to...@mu...]
> Sent: 31 July 2002 16:19
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling
> starfi eld)
> 
> 
> Oh dear god. We were literally just today evaluating PS7, 
> having used PS6
> until the current project was done (hooray! Crunch time 
> over!). After these
> comments we've had a fiddle round with it, and alpha-channel 
> support is so
> totally broken. Even when we can get it to work correctly for 
> alpha=0 or
> alpha=1, the edges are wierdly rubbish, as if some 
> premultiplying has gone
> on.
> 
> So that's one package we're not going to be "upgrading" to 
> until this is
> fixed. The benefits of PS7 are marginal, and such a 
> fundamental chunk of
> functionality is broken. We hereby vote with our wallets :-)
> 
> Thanks for the heads-up everyone.
> 
> 
> Tom Forsyth - purely hypothetical Muckyfoot bloke.
> 
> This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
> and does not in any way imply existence of the author.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: brian hook [mailto:bri...@py...]
> > Sent: 31 July 2002 16:11
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: Re: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling
> > starfield)
> > 
> > 
> > > What formats are people using for images these days? We're 
> > currently 
> > using
> > > TGA which "suffices" but isn't great due to Adobe less than 
> > embracing 
> > the
> > > concept of alpha channels.
> > 
> > Photoshop 7 completely and utterly broke TGA support, but you can 
> > supposedly go back and get the TGA exporter from PS6 and copy 
> > up to PS7 
> > and it starts working again.
> > 
> > This is OT, but damn, Adobe has the most piss poor attitude 
> I've ever 
> > seen.  When this TGA screwup was brought to their attention, their 
> > response was three fold:
> > 
> > - testers should have pointed it out to them, hence it's not 
> > their fault
> > 
> > - no one mentioned that alpha was being used "that way" (for games)
> > 
> > - using alpha channel "that way" is clearly against the spec, 
> > and game 
> > developers are relying on "broken" behaviour (i.e. TGA 
> > support in PS up 
> > through PS6), so it's really their fault
> > 
> > That, coupled with the completely broken PNG support in 
> > Photoshop, has 
> > just made me really dislike Adobe.
> > 
> > Anyway, we use TGA, JPG and PNG.  TGA if we need alpha or 
> 16-bit; JPG 
> > if we need lots of compression; and PNG if we need the files to be 
> > compressed individually.
> > 
> > -Hook
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This sf.net email is sponsored by: Dice - The leading 
> online job board
> > for high-tech professionals. Search and apply for tech jobs today!
> > http://seeker.dice.com/seeker.epl?rel_code=31
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> > Gamedevlists-windows mailing list
> > Gam...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-windows
> > Archives:
> > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=555
> > 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by: Dice - The leading online job board
> for high-tech professionals. Search and apply for tech jobs today!
> http://seeker.dice.com/seeker.epl?rel_code=31
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> 

RE: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfi eld)

[brian h. <bri...@py...>]

> So that's one package we're not going to be "upgrading" to until this 
is
> fixed.

We, unfortunately, learned the hard way by upgrading on the assumption 
that, at the very worst, the upgrade wouldn't be worth the money.

> The benefits of PS7 are marginal

The scripting support in PS7 seems to be very nice -- you can access 
just about everything you need to with AppleScript, JavaScript or VB 
(your choice, although JS is the only one that's available on both Mac 
and PC).

That said, I haven't actually _used_ it, so for all I know, their 
scripting support may be completely broken as well.

-Hook

RE: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfi eld)

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

Oh dear god. We were literally just today evaluating PS7, having used PS6
until the current project was done (hooray! Crunch time over!). After these
comments we've had a fiddle round with it, and alpha-channel support is so
totally broken. Even when we can get it to work correctly for alpha=0 or
alpha=1, the edges are wierdly rubbish, as if some premultiplying has gone
on.

So that's one package we're not going to be "upgrading" to until this is
fixed. The benefits of PS7 are marginal, and such a fundamental chunk of
functionality is broken. We hereby vote with our wallets :-)

Thanks for the heads-up everyone.


Tom Forsyth - purely hypothetical Muckyfoot bloke.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: brian hook [mailto:bri...@py...]
> Sent: 31 July 2002 16:11
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling
> starfield)
> 
> 
> > What formats are people using for images these days? We're 
> currently 
> using
> > TGA which "suffices" but isn't great due to Adobe less than 
> embracing 
> the
> > concept of alpha channels.
> 
> Photoshop 7 completely and utterly broke TGA support, but you can 
> supposedly go back and get the TGA exporter from PS6 and copy 
> up to PS7 
> and it starts working again.
> 
> This is OT, but damn, Adobe has the most piss poor attitude I've ever 
> seen.  When this TGA screwup was brought to their attention, their 
> response was three fold:
> 
> - testers should have pointed it out to them, hence it's not 
> their fault
> 
> - no one mentioned that alpha was being used "that way" (for games)
> 
> - using alpha channel "that way" is clearly against the spec, 
> and game 
> developers are relying on "broken" behaviour (i.e. TGA 
> support in PS up 
> through PS6), so it's really their fault
> 
> That, coupled with the completely broken PNG support in 
> Photoshop, has 
> just made me really dislike Adobe.
> 
> Anyway, we use TGA, JPG and PNG.  TGA if we need alpha or 16-bit; JPG 
> if we need lots of compression; and PNG if we need the files to be 
> compressed individually.
> 
> -Hook
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by: Dice - The leading online job board
> for high-tech professionals. Search and apply for tech jobs today!
> http://seeker.dice.com/seeker.epl?rel_code=31
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-windows mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-windows
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=555
> 

Re: [GD-Windows] Image formats (was [Algorithms] Scrolling starfield)

[brian h. <bri...@py...>]

> What formats are people using for images these days? We're currently 
using
> TGA which "suffices" but isn't great due to Adobe less than embracing 
the
> concept of alpha channels.

Photoshop 7 completely and utterly broke TGA support, but you can 
supposedly go back and get the TGA exporter from PS6 and copy up to PS7 
and it starts working again.

This is OT, but damn, Adobe has the most piss poor attitude I've ever 
seen.  When this TGA screwup was brought to their attention, their 
response was three fold:

- testers should have pointed it out to them, hence it's not their fault

- no one mentioned that alpha was being used "that way" (for games)

- using alpha channel "that way" is clearly against the spec, and game 
developers are relying on "broken" behaviour (i.e. TGA support in PS up 
through PS6), so it's really their fault

That, coupled with the completely broken PNG support in Photoshop, has 
just made me really dislike Adobe.

Anyway, we use TGA, JPG and PNG.  TGA if we need alpha or 16-bit; JPG 
if we need lots of compression; and PNG if we need the files to be 
compressed individually.

-Hook