gamedevlists-general — List for discussing general game development issues

RE: [GD-General] How I hate recruitment agencies within any indus try especially games...

[Jacob T. (C. D. Ltd) <Ja...@Co...>]

Or get the BRITsoft book (about =A350) from elspa
(http://www.elspa.com/britsoft/) which contains the addresses and =
contacts
of UK video games companies and more.

Then send your CV to the companies where you would like to work (saving =
them
the 25% of your salary)

Jake

-----Original Message-----
From: Javier Arevalo [mailto:ja...@py...]
Sent: 09 May 2002 15:53
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Re: [GD-General] How I hate recruitment agencies within any
industry especially games...


Take the time to put together a good resume and a demo or art reel =
(demo in
your case). Buy Edge magazine for a couple months since many UK houses =
ad
there. Do your homework and put together a list of companies that you =
would
want to work for, check their websites, find their addresses and =
contact
infos, mail company employees whose emails you find in public forums =
like
this one (ONLY as a last resort, always politely and concisely, and =
only
ONCE whether you get an answer or not). Then send copies of your resume =
and
demo/reel, along with personalized letters explaining what makes you
interested in working for each specific company.

Doing all this hard(er) work will pay off, and it'll be a good warmup =
since
once you land the job, you'll be working quite hard anyway. :)

As for recruitment companies, I don't know nor care. I guess they have =
their
place since people and companies use their services, it's up to each =
one to
decide if the time & hassle saved is worth the money paid. No need to =
call
them names, at least not before you have proven your own worth =
methinks.

Javier Arevalo
Pyro Studios


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anon Pie" <an...@ho...>


> At the moment I'm looking for a new programming job within the (UK) =
games
> industry (Well I'm beginning to wonder if I should do something else
> instead) and I'm part playing with the fun that is recruitment =
agents.  I
> really do hate them.  If they place me the lucky company will have to
shell
> out ~25% of the offered salary to the agency after I've been there =
three
> months.  This has the effect of driving down the salary I will be =
offered
> which sucks.
>
> So why use a recruitment agency?  The simple reason why I find myself
being
> thrown back into that trap when I move jobs is because there is no =
single
> one place where I can find a list of 'real' jobs currently available =
-
plus
> some companies do not have the time or resources to advertise =
properly.
Yeh
> you can see job listings on the internet but I can guarantee the =
majority
do
> not exist and have been placed as bait by agents.  This is an =
appalling
> situation.
>
> I have not yet seen or heard of one example where an agent has been
anywhere
> remotely worth the ~25% they charge.  I find it sickening.  All they =
have
> ever done is get in the way and lose me jobs by not responding =
quickly
> enough - or by reformating my CV - Ever turned up for an interview =
and
found
> that the company has an altered form of your CV with the wording
changed? -
> this is especially great when an agent assumes that his/her technical
> knowledge is far superior and rewords jargon so it no longer makes =
any
sense
> or infact creates new words that have no meaning...
>
> Every time I'm called in for an interview that turns out to be with =
an
agent
> I find it immensely frustrating - as if this guy sat in front of me =
is
> really is able to fathom my knowledge of C++, assembly language and =
3d
> experience!  And as if he was there until 3am the other day doing =
'just
one
> more room' in Dungeon Siege or fragging someones ass online.  They're
> vultures who provide nothing more than a rip-off introductory service =
and
> then proceed to pop up in an annoying manor afterwards.
>
> It's annoyed me so much I'm actually thinking of setting up my own =
games
> recruitment agency (eek!).  As far as I can see it a decent agency =
should
> provide:
>
> 1) A web service where companies can advertise directly for a =
standard
> decent advertising rate.  ie: candidates can go to one central place =
and
> find a list of jobs currently available and actually have decent =
details
on
> them and who they're for and how to contact the company involved
*directly*.
>
> 2) A premier service where employers can ask the agency to filter
candidates
> as they simply don't have the time and resources to see everyone.  =
But the
> filtering service would be provided by people like me who actually =
knew
what
> they were talking about and could properly evaluate a candidates
expertise.
>
> I'd be grateful to hear anybody elses opinions on this matter even if =
you
> think I've gone mad! .... which I probably did a while back ;)
>
> Now I have a strange urge to watch Jerry Maguire....
>
> PS: If I actually do this and I end up being like the rest of the =
agency
> fuckwits please someone shoot me and put me out of my misery!



_______________________________________________________________

Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We =
supply
the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: =
ban...@so...
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Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
Archives:
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Re: [GD-General] How I hate recruitment agencies within any industry especially games...

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

Take the time to put together a good resume and a demo or art reel (demo in
your case). Buy Edge magazine for a couple months since many UK houses ad
there. Do your homework and put together a list of companies that you would
want to work for, check their websites, find their addresses and contact
infos, mail company employees whose emails you find in public forums like
this one (ONLY as a last resort, always politely and concisely, and only
ONCE whether you get an answer or not). Then send copies of your resume and
demo/reel, along with personalized letters explaining what makes you
interested in working for each specific company.

Doing all this hard(er) work will pay off, and it'll be a good warmup since
once you land the job, you'll be working quite hard anyway. :)

As for recruitment companies, I don't know nor care. I guess they have their
place since people and companies use their services, it's up to each one to
decide if the time & hassle saved is worth the money paid. No need to call
them names, at least not before you have proven your own worth methinks.

Javier Arevalo
Pyro Studios


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anon Pie" <an...@ho...>


> At the moment I'm looking for a new programming job within the (UK) games
> industry (Well I'm beginning to wonder if I should do something else
> instead) and I'm part playing with the fun that is recruitment agents.  I
> really do hate them.  If they place me the lucky company will have to
shell
> out ~25% of the offered salary to the agency after I've been there three
> months.  This has the effect of driving down the salary I will be offered
> which sucks.
>
> So why use a recruitment agency?  The simple reason why I find myself
being
> thrown back into that trap when I move jobs is because there is no single
> one place where I can find a list of 'real' jobs currently available -
plus
> some companies do not have the time or resources to advertise properly.
Yeh
> you can see job listings on the internet but I can guarantee the majority
do
> not exist and have been placed as bait by agents.  This is an appalling
> situation.
>
> I have not yet seen or heard of one example where an agent has been
anywhere
> remotely worth the ~25% they charge.  I find it sickening.  All they have
> ever done is get in the way and lose me jobs by not responding quickly
> enough - or by reformating my CV - Ever turned up for an interview and
found
> that the company has an altered form of your CV with the wording
changed? -
> this is especially great when an agent assumes that his/her technical
> knowledge is far superior and rewords jargon so it no longer makes any
sense
> or infact creates new words that have no meaning...
>
> Every time I'm called in for an interview that turns out to be with an
agent
> I find it immensely frustrating - as if this guy sat in front of me is
> really is able to fathom my knowledge of C++, assembly language and 3d
> experience!  And as if he was there until 3am the other day doing 'just
one
> more room' in Dungeon Siege or fragging someones ass online.  They're
> vultures who provide nothing more than a rip-off introductory service and
> then proceed to pop up in an annoying manor afterwards.
>
> It's annoyed me so much I'm actually thinking of setting up my own games
> recruitment agency (eek!).  As far as I can see it a decent agency should
> provide:
>
> 1) A web service where companies can advertise directly for a standard
> decent advertising rate.  ie: candidates can go to one central place and
> find a list of jobs currently available and actually have decent details
on
> them and who they're for and how to contact the company involved
*directly*.
>
> 2) A premier service where employers can ask the agency to filter
candidates
> as they simply don't have the time and resources to see everyone.  But the
> filtering service would be provided by people like me who actually knew
what
> they were talking about and could properly evaluate a candidates
expertise.
>
> I'd be grateful to hear anybody elses opinions on this matter even if you
> think I've gone mad! .... which I probably did a while back ;)
>
> Now I have a strange urge to watch Jerry Maguire....
>
> PS: If I actually do this and I end up being like the rest of the agency
> fuckwits please someone shoot me and put me out of my misery!

[GD-General] How I hate recruitment agencies within any industry especially games...

[Anon P. <an...@ho...>]

At the moment I'm looking for a new programming job within the (UK) games 
industry (Well I'm beginning to wonder if I should do something else 
instead) and I'm part playing with the fun that is recruitment agents.  I 
really do hate them.  If they place me the lucky company will have to shell 
out ~25% of the offered salary to the agency after I've been there three 
months.  This has the effect of driving down the salary I will be offered 
which sucks.

So why use a recruitment agency?  The simple reason why I find myself being 
thrown back into that trap when I move jobs is because there is no single 
one place where I can find a list of 'real' jobs currently available - plus 
some companies do not have the time or resources to advertise properly.  Yeh 
you can see job listings on the internet but I can guarantee the majority do 
not exist and have been placed as bait by agents.  This is an appalling 
situation.

I have not yet seen or heard of one example where an agent has been anywhere 
remotely worth the ~25% they charge.  I find it sickening.  All they have 
ever done is get in the way and lose me jobs by not responding quickly 
enough - or by reformating my CV - Ever turned up for an interview and found 
that the company has an altered form of your CV with the wording changed? - 
this is especially great when an agent assumes that his/her technical 
knowledge is far superior and rewords jargon so it no longer makes any sense 
or infact creates new words that have no meaning...

Every time I'm called in for an interview that turns out to be with an agent 
I find it immensely frustrating - as if this guy sat in front of me is 
really is able to fathom my knowledge of C++, assembly language and 3d 
experience!  And as if he was there until 3am the other day doing 'just one 
more room' in Dungeon Siege or fragging someones ass online.  They're 
vultures who provide nothing more than a rip-off introductory service and 
then proceed to pop up in an annoying manor afterwards.

It's annoyed me so much I'm actually thinking of setting up my own games 
recruitment agency (eek!).  As far as I can see it a decent agency should 
provide:

1) A web service where companies can advertise directly for a standard 
decent advertising rate.  ie: candidates can go to one central place and 
find a list of jobs currently available and actually have decent details on 
them and who they're for and how to contact the company involved *directly*.

2) A premier service where employers can ask the agency to filter candidates 
as they simply don't have the time and resources to see everyone.  But the 
filtering service would be provided by people like me who actually knew what 
they were talking about and could properly evaluate a candidates expertise.

I'd be grateful to hear anybody elses opinions on this matter even if you 
think I've gone mad! .... which I probably did a while back ;)

Now I have a strange urge to watch Jerry Maguire....

PS: If I actually do this and I end up being like the rest of the agency 
fuckwits please someone shoot me and put me out of my misery!

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

Re: [GD-General] MEL

[<phi...@pl...>]

MEL's not that complex. I mostly use it for interface work, as much of
Maya's interface is written in MEL (which means there's plenty of sample
code, and you get to edit the interface to match your tools). Everything
goes through it as well (Maya's a fully factored application for you
AppleScript fans), if you open the script editor while you work, you can
watch the MEL fly by (then turn on "Echo All Commands" for MEL overload).

I don't think I'd want to write data extraction tools in it though, it's
not very fast, and the debug cycle is a PITA. All of our data extraction is
done via the SDK. Which is fairly complex, until you get your head round
the object model.

I'd reccomend going on a Maya training course as well.

It's all well worth it though, Maya is possibly the most flexible and
powerfull modelling / animation / rendering package I've ever worked with.

Cheers,
Phil




                                                                                                                                            
                    "Corrinne Yu" <cor...@sp...>                                                                                  
                    Sent by:                                      To:     <gam...@li...>                      
                    gam...@li...urc        cc:                                                                       
                    eforge.net                                    Subject:     [GD-General] MEL                                             
                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                            
                    05/08/2002 09:47 AM                                                                                                     
                    Please respond to corrinne                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                            




How tough is it to learn MEL? I am coming from Max Plug-In SDK.
What kind of Maya export mangling should I be careful of?

My artists are moving more to Maya, and the data we need for engine is
increasingly those from Maya than Max.

How do you think is the fastest way for me to ramp up to MEL from Max
plug-in?

Thanks for the heads up.



_______________________________________________________________

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the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: ban...@so...
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Archives:
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RE: [GD-General] MEL

[Corrinne Y. <cor...@sp...>]

-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...] On Behalf Of
Tom Spilman
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 12:35 PM
To: Gamedev General List
Subject: Re: [GD-General] MEL

> How tough is it to learn MEL? I am coming from Max Plug-In SDK.

    Well they're two different things...

    MEL is Maya's scripting language and is more akin to MaxScript than
Max's plug-in API.  Unfortunately the best source of information on MEL
i've

-- Thanks.

-- I was going to "learn" MEL by working from the D3D MEL X exporter, as
my (very few) artists are increasingly using the MEL exporter and
ignoring the MAX exporter that was the engine's real standard tool. :)

-- OTOH the MS exporter is painfully slow, mangles quite a bit of the
polygons (added vertices and polygons, even tessellations) and I really
need to go into the code to see what's going on there.

-- It looks like part of while MEL exporter is so slow is probably
because I should probably write a new one in Maya API instead of MEL
script.

-- I do need to learn it quickly as I can't spend too much time on the
mesh and animation exporter too.

-- Again, thanks for the heads up.

Re: [GD-General] MEL

[Jeff L. <je...@da...>]

Not a guru on either one really, but I don't find the Maya SDK any more
difficult than Max.  Some things are a little tricky since it is very object
oriented.  For example, getting the weights from an object envelope is
needlessly complicated, but that is true for Max as well.  Otherwise I would
say they pretty much do the same things and work about the same.  If you are
going to be writing rendering modules, I would much rather use the Maya SDK
but most game developers don't care about that.  I wrote a cartoon shader
for Maya a year or so ago and it was very easy.  Tried to get the thing
working in the Max SDK and it was a huge hassle.  But I am not as
experienced in the Max SDK.

In some ways I like working in the Maya SDK better.  You can dynamically
load and unload plugins in Maya which makes debugging easier.  Last time I
worked on Max that wasn't the case.  Also I really don't care for the Max
interface system but that is really just a personal preference.

No books on the Maya SDK that I am aware of but I do have a book "Mastering
Maya" or something that covers Mel pretty well.  But I think you will find
Mel is really easy to work with.  For the SDK, the online docs and sample
code is pretty much all I found I needed.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Spilman" <tsp...@mo...>
To: "Gamedev General List" <Gam...@li...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: [GD-General] MEL


> > How tough is it to learn MEL? I am coming from Max Plug-In SDK.
>
>     Well they're two different things...
>
>     MEL is Maya's scripting language and is more akin to MaxScript than
> Max's plug-in API.  Unfortunately the best source of information on MEL
i've
> found is the command documentation ( goto the 'Help' menu then 'MEL
Command
> Reference...' ) and reading other MEL scripts.  MEL is great for quick and
> dirty tasks, but it's very hard to debug so don't write anything too big
> with it.
>
>     Now Maya also has a C++ plug-in API and from what i've been told it
can
> be a bitch to work with.  You can find info on the API in the
> \Maya4.0\docs\en_us\html\DevKit folder of your Maya install.
>
> > How do you think is the fastest way for me to ramp up to MEL from Max
> > plug-in?
>
>     There is far more info available on Max plug-in and script writing
than
> for Maya, so you'll have to settle for the 'just do it' approach to learn
> how it works.  Tom
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Corrinne Yu" <cor...@sp...>
> To: <gam...@li...>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 11:47 AM
> Subject: [GD-General] MEL
>
>
> > How tough is it to learn MEL? I am coming from Max Plug-In SDK.
> > What kind of Maya export mangling should I be careful of?
> >
> > My artists are moving more to Maya, and the data we need for engine is
> > increasingly those from Maya than Max.
> >
> > How do you think is the fastest way for me to ramp up to MEL from Max
> > plug-in?
> >
> > Thanks for the heads up.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
> >
> > Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We
supply
> > the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us:
ban...@so...
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> > Gam...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> > Archives:
> > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
>
> Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We supply
> the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: ban...@so...
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
>
>

Re: [GD-General] MEL

[Tom S. <tsp...@mo...>]

> How tough is it to learn MEL? I am coming from Max Plug-In SDK.

    Well they're two different things...

    MEL is Maya's scripting language and is more akin to MaxScript than
Max's plug-in API.  Unfortunately the best source of information on MEL i've
found is the command documentation ( goto the 'Help' menu then 'MEL Command
Reference...' ) and reading other MEL scripts.  MEL is great for quick and
dirty tasks, but it's very hard to debug so don't write anything too big
with it.

    Now Maya also has a C++ plug-in API and from what i've been told it can
be a bitch to work with.  You can find info on the API in the
\Maya4.0\docs\en_us\html\DevKit folder of your Maya install.

> How do you think is the fastest way for me to ramp up to MEL from Max
> plug-in?

    There is far more info available on Max plug-in and script writing than
for Maya, so you'll have to settle for the 'just do it' approach to learn
how it works.  Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Corrinne Yu" <cor...@sp...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 11:47 AM
Subject: [GD-General] MEL


> How tough is it to learn MEL? I am coming from Max Plug-In SDK.
> What kind of Maya export mangling should I be careful of?
>
> My artists are moving more to Maya, and the data we need for engine is
> increasingly those from Maya than Max.
>
> How do you think is the fastest way for me to ramp up to MEL from Max
> plug-in?
>
> Thanks for the heads up.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
>
> Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We supply
> the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: ban...@so...
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557

[GD-General] MEL

[Corrinne Y. <cor...@sp...>]

How tough is it to learn MEL? I am coming from Max Plug-In SDK.
What kind of Maya export mangling should I be careful of?

My artists are moving more to Maya, and the data we need for engine is
increasingly those from Maya than Max.

How do you think is the fastest way for me to ramp up to MEL from Max
plug-in?

Thanks for the heads up.

RE: [GD-General] compresson

[Brian S. <bs...@mi...>]

I think what you're really talking about is zlib.  I think of gzip as an
executable that just wraps up zlib compression.

Have a look on the zlib pages for the minizip library, which provides
zip file reading & writing. =20

http://www.gzip.org/zlib/
http://www.winimage.com/zLibDll/unzip.html

--brian

-----Original Message-----
From: Idahosa I. O. Edokpayi [mailto:ida...@sw...]=20
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 6:47 AM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: [GD-General] compresson


I am trying to compress and decompress files for a small game project (I
need to stay under 5 mb) using the crypto library. Crypto, or rather the
gzip library in crypto, doesn't handle multiple files in one zip file in
an obvious way. You specify a source and a target and that's it
apparently. Does anyone know enough about gzip to suggest a better way?
=20
Idahosa Edokpayi
O2Cool Games Software
=20
=20
=20
Idahosa Edokpayi
O2Cool Games Software
=20

Re: [GD-General] compresson

[J C L. <cl...@ka...>]

On Mon, 06 May 2002 08:47:07 -0500 
Idahosa I O Edokpayi <ida...@sw...> wrote:

> I am trying to compress and decompress files for a small game project
> (I need to stay under 5 mb) using the crypto library. Crypto, or
> rather the gzip library in crypto, doesn't handle multiple files in
> one zip file in an obvious way. You specify a source and a target and
> that's it apparently. Does anyone know enough about gzip to suggest a
> better way?

You're used to things like zip files which individually compress each
file and then pack the resultant compressed files together in a single
larger file.  gzip doesn't work that way, basically due to the fact that
it is a stream compressor and not a file compressor (which also means
that it doesn't support the meta-data overhead that file compressors
require).  Instead the metaphor is that all the files are first
collected into a single archive file, and then the entire thing is
compressed.

Or, more simply, you hand it a stream and it hands you a compressed
stream in reply.  Any relevance to files is an abstraction outside of
gzip.

-- 
J C Lawrence                
---------(*)                Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. 
cl...@ka...               He lived as a devil, eh?		  
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/  Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.

[GD-General] compresson

[Idahosa I. O. E. <ida...@sw...>]

I am trying to compress and decompress files for a small game project (I
need to stay under 5 mb) using the crypto library. Crypto, or rather the
gzip library in crypto, doesn't handle multiple files in one zip file in
an obvious way. You specify a source and a target and that's it
apparently. Does anyone know enough about gzip to suggest a better way?
 
Idahosa Edokpayi
O2Cool Games Software
 
 
 
Idahosa Edokpayi
O2Cool Games Software
 

RE: [GD-General] 8-Bit Image Editors

[Tom H. <to...@3d...>]

At 12:44 PM 5/2/2002, Brian Hook wrote:
>However, I have to go with TomF on this one, all I hear are nothing but
>raves about that "spiritual successor" to DPaint he posted.

I downloaded the demo ... it's exactly what I was looking for :)

Tom

RE: [GD-General] 8-Bit Image Editors

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

Photoshop isn't as bad as a lot of people think it is for paletted work,
but it does have its, um, issues.

PS7 has completely broken TGA support.  You can't write out a 32-bit TGA
with your alpha channel.  Won't happen.  Loads as white.  PNG support
has effectively been broken/useless since PS6.

Experiment with different dithering types -- dithering can blow any
additional compression you might get after going to 8-bit, so avoid it
if you can assuming you're worried about space.  And make sure that you
tell it to use your palette (Custom Palette option).

However, I have to go with TomF on this one, all I hear are nothing but
raves about that "spiritual successor" to DPaint he posted.

> My best recommendation is to draw what you want in PhotoShop 
> with 32-bit depth and then convert it to use your custom 
> palette when you're done. It can do a "best-fit" of the 
> 32-bit colors into your limited palette and can identify 
> colors that are beyond some "threshold of pain" that you can 
> then reassign. It can also dither between two close colors 
> across an area to give a gradual fill that would be near 
> impossible to do manually.

re: [GD-General] 8-Bit Image Editors

[George W. <ge...@ap...>]

On Thu, 02 May 2002 03:33:40 -0700, Tom Hubina <to...@3d...> wrote:

> I'm looking for a good Windows or even Mac program for drawing 8-bit images.
>
> Specifically, I want to make up a palette, select entries from that
> palette, and then paint pixel by pixel with the entries from that palette.
>
> Photoshop is nice for 32-bit stuff, but working with a fixed palette on a
> pixel by pixel basis seems to be a real pain in the ass.

My best recommendation is to draw what you want in PhotoShop with 32-bit
depth and then convert it to use your custom palette when you're done. It
can do a "best-fit" of the 32-bit colors into your limited palette and can
identify colors that are beyond some "threshold of pain" that you can then
reassign. It can also dither between two close colors across an area to give
a gradual fill that would be near impossible to do manually.

--
Enjoy,
George Warner,
Mixed Mode Magic Fragment Scientist
Apple Developer Technical Support (DTS)

RE: [GD-General] 8-Bit Image Editors

[Philip H. <ph...@me...>]

Apparently the editor from the old Video for Windows SDK is good for
palette fiddling. I *think* it's called VidEdit. In the past we've used
that and PaintShop Pro.

Philip Harris
Batfish Studios Ltd
http://www.batfishstudios.com

-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...] On Behalf Of
Tom Hubina
Sent: 02 May 2002 11:34
To: gam...@li...
Subject: [GD-General] 8-Bit Image Editors


I'm looking for a good Windows or even Mac program for drawing 8-bit
images.

Specifically, I want to make up a palette, select entries from that 
palette, and then paint pixel by pixel with the entries from that
palette.

Photoshop is nice for 32-bit stuff, but working with a fixed palette on
a 
pixel by pixel basis seems to be a real pain in the ass.

Thanks,
Tom


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RE: [GD-General] 8-Bit Image Editors

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

Deluxe Paint? :-)

Pro Motion is the spiritual sucessor to DP -
http://www.cosmigo.com/promotion/index.html


Tom Forsyth - purely hypothetical Muckyfoot bloke.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Hubina [mailto:to...@3d...]
> Sent: 02 May 2002 11:34
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-General] 8-Bit Image Editors
> 
> 
> I'm looking for a good Windows or even Mac program for 
> drawing 8-bit images.
> 
> Specifically, I want to make up a palette, select entries from that 
> palette, and then paint pixel by pixel with the entries from 
> that palette.
> 
> Photoshop is nice for 32-bit stuff, but working with a fixed 
> palette on a 
> pixel by pixel basis seems to be a real pain in the ass.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> 
> Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download 
> mirrors. We supply
> the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: 
> ban...@so...
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
> 

[GD-General] 8-Bit Image Editors

[Tom H. <to...@3d...>]

I'm looking for a good Windows or even Mac program for drawing 8-bit images.

Specifically, I want to make up a palette, select entries from that 
palette, and then paint pixel by pixel with the entries from that palette.

Photoshop is nice for 32-bit stuff, but working with a fixed palette on a 
pixel by pixel basis seems to be a real pain in the ass.

Thanks,
Tom

Re: [GD-General] spatial representation

[<phi...@pl...>]

Kent Quirk <ken...@co...>:
> I think their model is toroidal rather than spherical,

...or indeed, Asteroidal ;)

Ahem. The major problem with that model is that you have to explicitly
handle the wrapping-round feature in any system that performs more than a
single point spatial query (by either performing two queries, and merging
the results, or splitting the query into two halves).

 Note that the (original arcade) Asteroids has a dead zone off screen
before you actually wrap round.

Cheers,
Phil




                                                                                                                           
                    Kent Quirk <ken...@co...>                                                                   
                    Sent by:                                      To:     <ida...@sw...>, Game Dev                  
                    gam...@li...urc        <gam...@li...>, Algorithms 
                    eforge.net                                    List <gda...@li...>           
                                                                  cc:                                                      
                                                                  Subject:     Re: [GD-General] spatial representation     
                    04/07/2002 08:22 AM                                                                                    
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                           




TreadMarks (the tank battle game from Longbow Digital Arts) has an
interesting solution to this -- an infinite terrain. As I recall, it
wraps after you get to one edge of the world. So you could, I
believe, keep driving in one direction and eventually wrap around
again to the battle. I think their model is toroidal rather than
spherical, but you might consider that instead of just falling off
the edge of the earth ("Here be dragons!").

Another possible solution in a flight game (where, I presume,
standing still isn't possible) is to have a force (wind) that pushes
you away from the world edges. It would be negligible near the middle
of the world, but get more and more powerful at the edges. If they're
always moving anyway, most people won't ever fly straight enough or
far enough towards an edge to ever notice.

     Kent

--
Kent Quirk, ken...@co... on 04/07/2002


On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 04:32:11 -0600, Idahosa Edokpayi scribbled:
>I want to do a smallish flight combat game. Even though I only want
>a small game, I want big spaces, or at least the biggest space I can
>get using floating point variables. My reason is that I can't think
>of any good way to force players to not wander without breaking
>immersion; so I plan to give them the largest possible space I can
>and then just do something ugly when they reach the limit. I tried
>to search the archives unsuccessfully (how does that work again?
>GeoCrawler was unhelpful)
>
>Idahosa Edokpayi
>
>
>_______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-general
>mailing list Gam...@li...
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
>Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557




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Re: [GD-General] spatial representation

[Kent Q. <ken...@co...>]

TreadMarks (the tank battle game from Longbow Digital Arts) has=
 an 
interesting solution to this -- an infinite terrain. As I recall,=
 it 
wraps after you get to one edge of the world. So you could, I 
believe, keep driving in one direction and eventually wrap around=
 
again to the battle. I think their model is toroidal rather than=
 
spherical, but you might consider that instead of just falling=
 off 
the edge of the earth ("Here be dragons!").

Another possible solution in a flight game (where, I presume, 
standing still isn't possible) is to have a force (wind) that=
 pushes 
you away from the world edges. It would be negligible near the=
 middle 
of the world, but get more and more powerful at the edges. If=
 they're 
always moving anyway, most people won't ever fly straight enough=
 or 
far enough towards an edge to ever notice.

=09Kent

-- 
Kent Quirk, ken...@co... on 04/07/2002


On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 04:32:11 -0600, Idahosa Edokpayi scribbled:
>I want to do a smallish flight combat game. Even though I only=
 want
>a small game, I want big spaces, or at least the biggest space I=
 can
>get using floating point variables. My reason is that I can't=
 think
>of any good way to force players to not wander without breaking
>immersion; so I plan to give them the largest possible space I=
 can
>and then just do something ugly when they reach the limit. I=
 tried
>to search the archives unsuccessfully (how does that work=
 again?
>GeoCrawler was unhelpful)
>
>Idahosa Edokpayi
>
>
>_______________________________________________=
 Gamedevlists-general
>mailing list Gam...@li...
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-genera=
l
>Archives:=
 http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557

[GD-General] spatial representation

[Idahosa E. <ida...@sw...>]

I want to do a smallish flight combat game. Even though I only want a small
game, I want big spaces, or at least the biggest space I can get using
floating point variables. My reason is that I can't think of any good way to
force players to not wander without breaking immersion; so I plan to give
them the largest possible space I can and then just do something ugly when
they reach the limit. I tried to search the archives unsuccessfully (how
does that work again? GeoCrawler was unhelpful)

Idahosa Edokpayi

RE: [GD-General] Writing an audio mixer

[Tom H. <to...@3d...>]

At 04:41 PM 3/18/2002, Brian Hook wrote:
>Steady state frame rate situations are easy to support, it's when you
>have things like loading screens and long idle periods that you get
>hosed.  For example, say you have background music playing and you now
>load a map file that's 3MB.  You probably can't pull that up in < 50ms.

Yup ... Long file I/O kills that kind of sound system. It's often ok to 
shut off background music during long IO though.

>To combat that you end up sprinkling "updateMixer()" calls everywhere
>you _think_ you might have a long delay.  This becomes error prone and
>tedious.

Yes .. I'd do everything I could to avoid such a thing.

>The problem is that the mixer code can get very, very slow, depending on
>how much optimization work you want to put into it.  Panning, volume,
>handling repeating sounds, etc. add up to a lot of overhead, especially
>on lower end systems.

Unless you're doing the mixing on another CPU or are running into 
situations where you're taking up double interrupt hits (something that can 
happen on the Mac and make things slower than they should be .. not 100% 
clear on this one myself), it doesn't really matter when/where you do the 
work. It's still going to take the same amount of time. Unless I'm missing 
something, I don't really see how this is relevant.

>Actually, you'd need to write that function differently depending on
>whether it was interrupt driven or not, since thread sync works
>differently than interrupt sync.  In all likelihood the right way to do
>it would be write a portable function that had a system specific
>synchronization wrapper around it.

Yeah ... somethin like that ;)

Tom

RE: [GD-General] Writing an audio mixer

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

> Lets assume that my frame rate should never drop below 20fps. 

Steady state frame rate situations are easy to support, it's when you
have things like loading screens and long idle periods that you get
hosed.  For example, say you have background music playing and you now
load a map file that's 3MB.  You probably can't pull that up in < 50ms.

To combat that you end up sprinkling "updateMixer()" calls everywhere
you _think_ you might have a long delay.  This becomes error prone and
tedious.

> The other option is to go with a threaded system.

This is conceptually much cleaner, but if supporting a console or MacOS
is important, then you may be out of luck with this direction.
 
> I think if I was to set up a mixer, I would push the issue of how to 
> service the hardware down to the system level. I would stack up play 
> commands from the game side and generate the mixed results in 
> response to a function call:

Yep.  That's pretty much the standard way of doing it.

The problem is that the mixer code can get very, very slow, depending on
how much optimization work you want to put into it.  Panning, volume,
handling repeating sounds, etc. add up to a lot of overhead, especially
on lower end systems.

> This function would need to be interrupt and thread safe.

Actually, you'd need to write that function differently depending on
whether it was interrupt driven or not, since thread sync works
differently than interrupt sync.  In all likelihood the right way to do
it would be write a portable function that had a system specific
synchronization wrapper around it.

Brian

RE: [GD-General] Writing an audio mixer

[Tom H. <to...@3d...>]

At 04:00 PM 3/18/2002, Brian Hook wrote:
>One other thing that hasn't been mentioned is latency.  With a threaded
>audio mixer you can get pretty low latencies since you know you'll be
>serviced at fairly regular intervals.  With a synchronous mixer, you
>have to trade off robustness (underflows) for response time.  For a
>puzzle game this probably isn't that big a deal, but it's something to
>be aware of.  Setting up a one second buffer gives you a lot of lee way
>on servicing the stream, but you've now established a pretty big ass
>delay in your audio stream.

Lets assume that my frame rate should never drop below 20fps. This means my 
sound buffer must be at least 50ms if I'm going to service it once per 
frame (two 50ms buffers for double buffering). This also means that I have 
a 50ms latency for kicking off new sound effects. If the frame rate drops 
below 20fps then I'm going to have ugly problems (skipping on MacOS, 
repeating on Win32). I think you can stretch this out to 70, 80, etc ms ... 
though I'm not sure where exactly it starts to feel disconnected from the 
action.

The other option is to go with a threaded system. However, for systems 
without threads, or systems like MacOS where you only have cooperative 
threads (icky kaka) you end up right back at the once per frame thing or 
dealing with doing your buffer filling in response to interrupts.

Basically, if you can get away with saying the frame rate will never drop 
below some number (which is strictly a sound effect latency problem), then 
you can deal with updating the sound buffers once per frame. If you can't, 
then you either need to sprinkle multiple sound updates through the code or 
go to a threaded / interrupt based system.

------

I think if I was to set up a mixer, I would push the issue of how to 
service the hardware down to the system level. I would stack up play 
commands from the game side and generate the mixed results in response to a 
function call:

GetMixedData(int iBytes, void* pBuffer);

which would give you the next iBytes worth of mixed sound data into 
pBuffer. This function would need to be interrupt and thread safe. Then you 
just call this function from where ever you update the sound hardware for 
that system. The mixing code is all cross-plat and you only have to write 
up a page or two of code for stuffing a system buffer with audio (just like 
Ogg Vorbis). The buffer sizes are all system dependant, and can even be 
varied at run time if you like.

Tom

RE: [GD-General] Writing an audio mixer

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

Doh, sorry, latency was mentioned by Mickael Pointier.  Sorry for any
confusion.
 
> One other thing that hasn't been mentioned is latency.

RE: [GD-General] Writing an audio mixer

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

One other thing that hasn't been mentioned is latency.  With a threaded
audio mixer you can get pretty low latencies since you know you'll be
serviced at fairly regular intervals.  With a synchronous mixer, you
have to trade off robustness (underflows) for response time.  For a
puzzle game this probably isn't that big a deal, but it's something to
be aware of.  Setting up a one second buffer gives you a lot of lee way
on servicing the stream, but you've now established a pretty big ass
delay in your audio stream.

Brian