gamedevlists-general — List for discussing general game development issues

RE: [mlist] RE: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

Python has "pickling" to do this. Or you can do it the way you do everything
else - assign all objects a unique ID, and save the stuff out manually,
replacing pointers with IDs. Which is essentially what pickling does.

You don't need to use stackless Python to get latent functions (if they're
what I think they are) - check out "generators" in standard Python - they
have most of the same capabilities. We didn't opt for stackless because it
was pretty ropey at the time. It's getting rapidly better though - it may be
worth a look these days (EVE Online are using it).

Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ivan-Assen Ivanov [mailto:as...@ha...]
> Sent: 22 April 2003 22:37
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [mlist] RE: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting 
> languages
> 
> 
> > Python works well for us on all the consoles (NGC, PS2, XBox).
> 
> How do you store the state of the interpreters, or does
> the "no arbitrary moment savegames" nature of most console
> games save you from this?
> 
> Resolving the pointers embedded within interpreter stacks
> was one of the two major issues we had to resolve for our
> custom scripting system - and that we don't want to have to
> resolve yet again. On the other hand, our custom scripting
> language sucks in more ways than one, and I would be happy
> to scrap it and integrate a "real language" instead.
> 
> (Latent functions a la UnrealScript being the other
> major issue, but Stackless Python seems to be able 
> to support that.)
> 
> regards,
> Assen
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [mlist] RE: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Thatcher U. <tu...@tu...>]

On Apr 23, 2003 at 12:37 +0300, Ivan-Assen Ivanov wrote:
> > Python works well for us on all the consoles (NGC, PS2, XBox).
> 
> How do you store the state of the interpreters, or does
> the "no arbitrary moment savegames" nature of most console
> games save you from this?
> 
> Resolving the pointers embedded within interpreter stacks
> was one of the two major issues we had to resolve for our
> custom scripting system - and that we don't want to have to
> resolve yet again. On the other hand, our custom scripting
> language sucks in more ways than one, and I would be happy
> to scrap it and integrate a "real language" instead.
> 
> (Latent functions a la UnrealScript being the other
> major issue, but Stackless Python seems to be able 
> to support that.)

The latest version of Lua (5.0) is mostly "stackless", so latent
functions are supported, and so you don't have troubles with
interpreter state embedded in the C stack (if that's the problem
you're referring to).  You would still have to write some code to
serialize the VM and heap state.

-- 
Thatcher Ulrich
http://tulrich.com

Re: [mlist] RE: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Ivan-Assen I. <as...@ha...>]

> Python works well for us on all the consoles (NGC, PS2, XBox).

How do you store the state of the interpreters, or does
the "no arbitrary moment savegames" nature of most console
games save you from this?

Resolving the pointers embedded within interpreter stacks
was one of the two major issues we had to resolve for our
custom scripting system - and that we don't want to have to
resolve yet again. On the other hand, our custom scripting
language sucks in more ways than one, and I would be happy
to scrap it and integrate a "real language" instead.

(Latent functions a la UnrealScript being the other
major issue, but Stackless Python seems to be able 
to support that.)

regards,
Assen

RE: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Andrew P. <aj...@eu...>]

I agree with Tom here. I fail to see the great advantage of boost over swig
in this case. After trying both under VC++ (and therein lies boosts
problem - speed) swig wins hands down. It really isn't any more effort than
using boost and is certainly easier to debug if things go wrong.

Andrew Perella


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Tom Forsyth
Sent: 22 April 2003 13:59
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages


Python works well for us on all the consoles (NGC, PS2, XBox). We're using
SWIG as a C++ interface rather than Boost, simply because Boost depends on
fancy stuff that compilers don't necessarily deal with properly. Whereas
SWIG is relatively simple code, but seems equivalently powerful - mix and
match between C and Python classes, call either from the other, stuff like
that.

You need some custom allocators on consoles, otherwise fragmentation is a
problem, but I'm sure that's true of all scripting languages, and indeed
true of most problems. Python's garbage collector is actually pretty smart,
and we've not had any problems with "free cascades" or anything scary like
that. Don't believe the hype.

Python may be overkill if you just want a level-simple scripting language.
We're using it for the majority of high-level gameplay as well as level
scripting - basically everything but rendering, sound, world management and
all the fairly low-level stuff like that. For that, it's very good.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: brian sharon [mailto:pud...@po...]
> Sent: 17 April 2003 19:09
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages
>
>
> JavaScript: x-platform if you grab the Mozilla
> implementation; not sure
> what the footprint would be on a console, and of course you have the
> garbage collection issue.  Language is very nice though and of course
> there's plenty of reference material out there.
>
> Tcl: Not my cup of tea but may be someone else's?
>
> Simkin: Language features are nice, but I don't want to write
> script in
> XML.  And the other file format looks even less clear, if that's
> possible: look at http://www.simkin.co.uk/Docs/Simkin/Example.s.txt.
> What goes in the brackets?  Well, brackets seem to group method
> arguments with the method body.  Except when they're  used to
> block out
> comments.  But comments can also follow double slashes.
> Hmmmm.  Well,
> I'm sure I can count on my designers to sort it all out...I
> mean, they
> already *almost* understand what a source control system
> does, so this
> should be cake.
>
> Python: if it proves to be viable on consoles (I'm watching
> others and
> hoping for the best) I would be very happy.  I haven't seen other
> languages with anything close to Boost.Python for
> ease-of-integration;
> it is seriously impressive: http://www.boost.org/libs/python/doc/.
> Other positives are same as JavaScript: lots of reference
> material, very
> readable, etc.
>
> --brian
>
>
> Gareth Lewin wrote:
>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Marc Fascia [mailto:ma...@ma...]
> >>It seems that Python, Lua and Ruby are
> >>popular choices in that topic.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Other good choises are tcl, and javascript/vbscript if this
> is a win32 only
> >product.
> >_______________________
> >Regards, Gareth Lewin
> >Programmer, Climax Solent.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
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> Archives:
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>


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RE: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

Python works well for us on all the consoles (NGC, PS2, XBox). We're using
SWIG as a C++ interface rather than Boost, simply because Boost depends on
fancy stuff that compilers don't necessarily deal with properly. Whereas
SWIG is relatively simple code, but seems equivalently powerful - mix and
match between C and Python classes, call either from the other, stuff like
that.

You need some custom allocators on consoles, otherwise fragmentation is a
problem, but I'm sure that's true of all scripting languages, and indeed
true of most problems. Python's garbage collector is actually pretty smart,
and we've not had any problems with "free cascades" or anything scary like
that. Don't believe the hype.

Python may be overkill if you just want a level-simple scripting language.
We're using it for the majority of high-level gameplay as well as level
scripting - basically everything but rendering, sound, world management and
all the fairly low-level stuff like that. For that, it's very good.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: brian sharon [mailto:pud...@po...]
> Sent: 17 April 2003 19:09
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages
> 
> 
> JavaScript: x-platform if you grab the Mozilla 
> implementation; not sure 
> what the footprint would be on a console, and of course you have the 
> garbage collection issue.  Language is very nice though and of course 
> there's plenty of reference material out there.
> 
> Tcl: Not my cup of tea but may be someone else's?
> 
> Simkin: Language features are nice, but I don't want to write 
> script in 
> XML.  And the other file format looks even less clear, if that's 
> possible: look at http://www.simkin.co.uk/Docs/Simkin/Example.s.txt.  
> What goes in the brackets?  Well, brackets seem to group method 
> arguments with the method body.  Except when they're  used to 
> block out 
> comments.  But comments can also follow double slashes.  
> Hmmmm.  Well, 
> I'm sure I can count on my designers to sort it all out...I 
> mean, they 
> already *almost* understand what a source control system 
> does, so this 
> should be cake.
> 
> Python: if it proves to be viable on consoles (I'm watching 
> others and 
> hoping for the best) I would be very happy.  I haven't seen other 
> languages with anything close to Boost.Python for 
> ease-of-integration; 
> it is seriously impressive: http://www.boost.org/libs/python/doc/.  
> Other positives are same as JavaScript: lots of reference 
> material, very 
> readable, etc.
> 
> --brian
> 
> 
> Gareth Lewin wrote:
> 
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Marc Fascia [mailto:ma...@ma...]
> >>It seems that Python, Lua and Ruby are 
> >>popular choices in that topic.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >Other good choises are tcl, and javascript/vbscript if this 
> is a win32 only
> >product.
> >_______________________
> >Regards, Gareth Lewin
> >Programmer, Climax Solent.
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
> 

[GD-General] Introduction to Neural Networks

[Colin F. <cp...@ea...>]

2003 April 20th
Sunday

Clear your schedule, because you are one click away from
your new addiction:  Neural Networks!

http://www.colinfahey.com/2003apr20_neuron/2003apr20_neuron.htm

This article describes the fundamentals of neural networks,
such as simulation and back-propagation, and features 
interesting training scenarios, such as Exclusive-OR (XOR)
and Tic-Tac-Toe.  Download the complete C++ source code
and start performing your own experiments immediately.
The source code is public domain, and can be used for any
purpose without consideration.

There are many books and articles written about neural
networks, but I offer my own article in the hope that
it will stimulate new thinking and experimentation, and
will make the subject more accessible to novices.

--- Colin

cp...@ea...
http://www.colinfahey.com

Re: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[<cas...@ya...>]

Brian Hook wrote:
> Now, for something with an extended life you're going to have to find
> a decent real-time GC implementation.

Lua 5.1 will have an incremental garbage collector, that will probably solve
most, if not all, of those problems.


Ignacio Castaño
cas...@ya...

Re: [GD-General] OpenGL, video-capture, A.I. to play Tetris

[Nalin S. <ns...@vs...>]

Cool scene... WAY TO GO Colin; WAY TO GO!

I'm definitely gonna download this.
I write coz I run a company that's into producing games and I read and found
your tutorial on J2ME programming as well as your criticisms of BREW
insightful and meaningful at a time when this was what we needed most (and
which we found thru google) and I'd like to say thanks for those and
recommend atleast those to everyone else on this list.

Regards,
Nalin Savara

----- Original Message -----
From: "Colin Fahey" <cp...@ea...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:37 PM
Subject: [GD-General] OpenGL, video-capture, A.I. to play Tetris


> 2003 January 28th
> Tuesday
>
> I have created an OpenGL-based application with video capture,
> image processing, and Artificial Intelligence, to play a variant
> of the video game Tetris running on another computer.
>
> http://www.colinfahey.com/2003jan_tetris/2003jan_tetris.htm
>
> All source code and a compiled executable can be downloaded.
>
> Finally I am getting around to finishing those wacky projects
> I envisioned in college!
>
> --- Colin
>
> cp...@ea...
> http://www.colinfahey.com
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.NET email is sponsored by:
> SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See!
> http://www.vasoftware.com
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> Archives:
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>

Re: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Nalin S. <ns...@vs...>]

Incase you're programming on Win32 platform; one way to quickly solve your
problem is to expose all the scriptable objects as com objects that expose
the IDispatch interface (easily done through Wizards in VC++ or VS.NET); and
then use either JavaScript or VBScript as the scripting language each of
whose interpreters come build into Windows; or get installed with MSIE onto
Win98/95.

This way you can have a scriptable game-engine up and running in a matter of
2-3 max 6-7 days with an industry strength scripting language.

Also, in the past I've written things that allow Microsoft Java VM to
interpret java byte-code that manipulates COM objects or even calls
functions from DLLs; and this is much simpler than it sounds on first glance
and you can in essence do the same for C# also incase you want to use C# as
the scripting language. By simple I mean one can write an ISAPI Java servlet
container that invokes java servlets in the Microsoft JVM in less than 800
lines of code; which would allow you to run java servlets using IIS or PWS
on WinNT 4.

Alternatively; if you're open to exposing your scriptable objects as COM
objects; you can even write a VB DLL that uses those objects that'd get
loaded by your game engine at run-time; with the speed, flexibility and
processing power of VB.

Regards,
Nalin Savara


----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Fascia" <ma...@ma...>
To: "GD General List" <gam...@li...>
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 4:29 AM
Subject: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages


> Hi,
>
> I'm currently having a look at a scripting language to integrate in my
game
> engine. Building a complete home-made solution is not very realistic due
to
> the time I can spend on this point, so I'm looking for an existing and
well
> established one. It seems that Python, Lua and Ruby are popular choices in
> that topic.
>
> Does anybody have some pointers that could help me in comparing them and
> choosing one, knowing that the criterions are :
> - Easiness in binding with C++ classes/integration in the current engine
> - Simplicity of its syntax (to have quick up-and-running users/coders)
> - Lightweight
> - Portable (for console games mainly)
> - Extra tools available (debugger, editors, win32 syntax highlighting
> controls ...)
>
> thanks.
>
> -Marc Fascia
>
> PS: please excuse me if this message was sent multiple times. I had
> apparently some troubles in getting subscribed !
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
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> Archives:
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RE: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> From: gekido [mailto:ge...@ub...]

> the syntax IS a bit wierd, but here's a few samples from the Reality 
> Factory implementation - it's definitely not XML ;}
> 
> http://rfactory.uber-geek.ca/docs/Con_Scripting.htm
> 
> http://rfactory.uber-geek.ca/docs/PawnScript.htm
> 
> {
> 	Start[ ()
> 	{
> 		SetTerrain("flat.bmp", "desert256.bmp");
> 		SetSkyDome(400, 64);
> 		SetSkyTexture("clouds_256.bmp");
> 		SetSkyColor(164, 200, 255, 255);
> 		SetTimeScale(700);
> 		DisableSun(false);
> 		DisableCloud(false);
> 		UseSkyFog(false);
> 	} ]
> 
> 	Run[ ()
> 	{
> 		SetWindDirection("north");
> 	} ]
> }


Impressive, I've now added Simkin to my list of things to look at :)


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RE: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jones, Chris [mailto:CJ...@bl...]
>
> Small is relatively lightweight and about as trivial to 
> integrate as Lua.  I
> think Lua is a more flexible language in a lot of ways, but 
> is sometimes
> more difficult for people to grasp.  Small is really just a 
> lightweight,
> typeless version of C, so anyone familiar with C will be 
> comfortable with
> it.
>

That sounds very much like GEL (Our internal scripting language being used
on Sudeki). The problem we have is that our goal is for designers to use the
scripting language, and they are, but the C like syntax is a bit of a curve
that shouldn't be needed.


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or vary any contractual relationship between you and Climax Development Ltd.
The contents of this e-mail may be confidential and if you have received it
in error, please delete it from your system, destroy any hard copies and
contact the originator of the email. In accordance with the
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RE: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Jones, C. <CJ...@bl...>]

We are currently using Small on a large-scale PC RPG and a PS2/Xbox action
RPG.  It was also used on Baldurs Gate: Dark Alliance for the PS2 and Xbox.


Small is relatively lightweight and about as trivial to integrate as Lua.  I
think Lua is a more flexible language in a lot of ways, but is sometimes
more difficult for people to grasp.  Small is really just a lightweight,
typeless version of C, so anyone familiar with C will be comfortable with
it.

-Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hook [mailto:ho...@py...] 
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 3:59 PM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Re: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

>on every platform. Lua is write in clear ANSI C++ and is light. Port

Small correction -- Lua is written in clear ANSI C, and it compiles 
cleanly with a C++ compiler as well.  It's also been used by many 
commercial games and it's incredibly lightweight.  Its syntax isn't 
too bad either.

Lua's biggest "problem" is that it lacks a comprehensive set of 
"blessed" external libraries, something Python is very good with, 
however if you just need a scripting language, it's great.

Another, less popular, alternative is Small, which has nice clean 
documentation, a familiar syntax and seems to be reasonably popular 
as well.

-Hook




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Re: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Brian H. <ho...@py...>]

>Unfortunately Lua on consoles doesn't seem viable because of the=
 GC.

It's viable, just a pain in the ass.  Someone else posted that=
 the 
only way to really use it in that environment is to preload 
everything and avoid all allocations and frees during a 
mission/level, then clean everything out between levels.

Python suffers from a similar problem even with refcounting, e.g.=
 
release cascades.

I would imagine patching Lua to avoid any GC at all would be 
relatively easy and might even be a good compromise.  

Now, for something with an extended life you're going to have to=
 find 
a decent real-time GC implementation.

Brian

Re: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[<Lag...@wa...>]

>>on every platform. Lua is write in clear ANSI C++ and is light. Port
>Small correction -- Lua is written in clear ANSI C, and it compiles
oops thank to correct me
----------------------
Lagarde Sébastien
Neko entertainment
Junior programmer

Re: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[brian s. <pud...@po...>]

Sweet, I hadn't seen that before.  The only alternative I knew of was toLua.

Unfortunately Lua on consoles doesn't seem viable because of the GC.  
We're using it as a configuration language, but we're not trying to 
execute scripts at runtime because we can't maintain 60 fps if the GC 
goes off and thinks about things for a few milliseconds.  Hence the 
search for alternatives.

Python is pretty portable in its own right; you can find the needed 
patches by googling "python ps2" or "python gamecube".  And the amount 
of time you'll spend porting is much less than the time you'll spend 
supporting your end users, so I'd argue that it's a factor in the 
decision, but not *the* factor.

But all this discussion is irrelevant.  I've found the ultimate 
scripting language: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/.  No garbage 
collector, dead-simple VM, and even smaller footprint than Lua!

:)

--brian

Lagarde Sébastien wrote:

>>Python: if it proves to be viable on consoles (I'm watching others and
>>hoping for the best) I would be very happy.  I haven't seen other
>>languages with anything close to Boost.Python for ease-of-integration;
>>it is seriously impressive: http://www.boost.org/libs/python/doc/.
>>    
>>
>
>luabind (http://luabind.sf.net/) for lua (www.lua.org) allow the same
>ease-of-integration
>It is based on the same work.
>
>IMHO for a scripting language you need to be aware of porting the VM on
>every platform.
>Lua is write in clear ANSI C++ and is light. Port on PS2, GC, XBOX is very
>easy.
>------------------------
>Lagarde Sébastien
>Neko entertainment
>Junior programmer
>  
>

Re: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Brian H. <ho...@py...>]

>on every platform. Lua is write in clear ANSI C++ and is light.=
 Port

Small correction -- Lua is written in clear ANSI C, and it=
 compiles 
cleanly with a C++ compiler as well.  It's also been used by many=
 
commercial games and it's incredibly lightweight.  Its syntax=
 isn't 
too bad either.

Lua's biggest "problem" is that it lacks a comprehensive set of 
"blessed" external libraries, something Python is very good with,=
 
however if you just need a scripting language, it's great.

Another, less popular, alternative is Small, which has nice clean=
 
documentation, a familiar syntax and seems to be reasonably=
 popular 
as well.

-Hook

Re: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[<Lag...@wa...>]

> Python: if it proves to be viable on consoles (I'm watching others and
> hoping for the best) I would be very happy.  I haven't seen other
> languages with anything close to Boost.Python for ease-of-integration;
> it is seriously impressive: http://www.boost.org/libs/python/doc/.

luabind (http://luabind.sf.net/) for lua (www.lua.org) allow the same
ease-of-integration
It is based on the same work.

IMHO for a scripting language you need to be aware of porting the VM on
every platform.
Lua is write in clear ANSI C++ and is light. Port on PS2, GC, XBOX is very
easy.
------------------------
Lagarde Sébastien
Neko entertainment
Junior programmer

Re: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[gekido <ge...@ub...>]

> Simkin: Language features are nice, but I don't want to write script in 
> XML.  And the other file format looks even less clear, if that's 
> possible: look at http://www.simkin.co.uk/Docs/Simkin/Example.s.txt.  
> What goes in the brackets?  Well, brackets seem to group method 
> arguments with the method body.  Except when they're  used to block out 
> comments.  But comments can also follow double slashes.  Hmmmm.  Well, 
> I'm sure I can count on my designers to sort it all out...I mean, they 
> already *almost* understand what a source control system does, so this 
> should be cake.

the syntax IS a bit wierd, but here's a few samples from the Reality 
Factory implementation - it's definitely not XML ;}

http://rfactory.uber-geek.ca/docs/Con_Scripting.htm

http://rfactory.uber-geek.ca/docs/PawnScript.htm

we have implemented High and Low level scripts, which give the designers 
the freedom to have 'instant one-frame' script actions (low-level) or 
longer-actions that may take more than a single frame to process 
(high-level ai stuff for example)...

i can put you in touch with the lead programmer if you wish to discuss 
the implementation of simkin in more details...

We use scripts for a wide range of things - here's the simplest type to 
initialize a Terrain and skydome for rendering... not THAT 
incomprehensible...the 'Start' command initializes everything on level 
load, the Run command allows you to have sun locations that change, 
moving clouds, wind changing directions etc in realtime...

works very well and doesn't require any kind of recompiling or 
programmers to modify - the designers can go nuts all they want.

{
	Start[ ()
	{
		SetTerrain("flat.bmp", "desert256.bmp");
		SetSkyDome(400, 64);
		SetSkyTexture("clouds_256.bmp");
		SetSkyColor(164, 200, 255, 255);
		SetTimeScale(700);
		DisableSun(false);
		DisableCloud(false);
		UseSkyFog(false);
	} ]

	Run[ ()
	{
		SetWindDirection("north");
	} ]
}

cheers

mike w
www.uber-geek.ca

RE: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

Hi.

> JavaScript: x-platform if you grab the Mozilla 
> implementation; not sure 
> what the footprint would be on a console, and of course you have the 
> garbage collection issue.  Language is very nice though and of course 
> there's plenty of reference material out there.

I mainly refered to the COM scripting host, which is incredably powerful. I
forgot about Javascript as a standa along language.

> Tcl: Not my cup of tea but may be someone else's?

Lets not get into a issue of preferances. But the big 3 scripting languages
( Perl,Tcl and Python ) are all very powerful scripting languages are will
all pretty much work very well for every game. They each have their
strengths and weaknesses. Tcl is probably the "lightest" of the 3 and the
most suitable as a "glue" language (That's what it was designed for). Python
is "fatter", but also has more features, and would be more suitable for a
game that is very heavy in script. Perl is somewhere in the middle, but to
me it's more of a standalone language and less of a "glue". Also Perl is
very good at a lot of things that are very irrelevant for games ( regex,
string handling etc ).

> Simkin: Language features are nice, but I don't want to write 
No opinions, never used.

> Python: if it proves to be viable on consoles (I'm watching 
> others and 
> hoping for the best) I would be very happy.  I haven't seen other 
> languages with anything close to Boost.Python for 
> ease-of-integration; 
> it is seriously impressive: http://www.boost.org/libs/python/doc/.  
> Other positives are same as JavaScript: lots of reference 
> material, very 
> readable, etc.

See above. I would be interested to see what the overhead of python is. It's
faster than tcl, but it's VM is "big".

On a side note, FUBI is FAR more easy to integrate than Boost.Python, and we
use it for our propriety scripting language and it's a huge boon.

The subject of "off the shelf" vs "self made" in not in the scope of the
original question though.


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Re: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[brian s. <pud...@po...>]

JavaScript: x-platform if you grab the Mozilla implementation; not sure 
what the footprint would be on a console, and of course you have the 
garbage collection issue.  Language is very nice though and of course 
there's plenty of reference material out there.

Tcl: Not my cup of tea but may be someone else's?

Simkin: Language features are nice, but I don't want to write script in 
XML.  And the other file format looks even less clear, if that's 
possible: look at http://www.simkin.co.uk/Docs/Simkin/Example.s.txt.  
What goes in the brackets?  Well, brackets seem to group method 
arguments with the method body.  Except when they're  used to block out 
comments.  But comments can also follow double slashes.  Hmmmm.  Well, 
I'm sure I can count on my designers to sort it all out...I mean, they 
already *almost* understand what a source control system does, so this 
should be cake.

Python: if it proves to be viable on consoles (I'm watching others and 
hoping for the best) I would be very happy.  I haven't seen other 
languages with anything close to Boost.Python for ease-of-integration; 
it is seriously impressive: http://www.boost.org/libs/python/doc/.  
Other positives are same as JavaScript: lots of reference material, very 
readable, etc.

--brian


Gareth Lewin wrote:

>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Marc Fascia [mailto:ma...@ma...]
>>It seems that Python, Lua and Ruby are 
>>popular choices in that topic.
>>    
>>
>
>Other good choises are tcl, and javascript/vbscript if this is a win32 only
>product.
>_______________________
>Regards, Gareth Lewin
>Programmer, Climax Solent.
>  
>

RE: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marc Fascia [mailto:ma...@ma...]
> It seems that Python, Lua and Ruby are 
> popular choices in that topic.

Other good choises are tcl, and javascript/vbscript if this is a win32 only
product.
_______________________
Regards, Gareth Lewin
Programmer, Climax Solent.

(To anyone outside Climax, sorry for the disclaimer below)



DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise expressly stated, this message does not create
or vary any contractual relationship between you and Climax Development Ltd.
The contents of this e-mail may be confidential and if you have received it
in error, please delete it from your system, destroy any hard copies and
contact the originator of the email. In accordance with the
Telecommunications (Lawful Business Regulations) (Interception of
Communications) Regulations 2000 the Company reserves the right and, may at
any time, monitor and intercept (but not record) e-mails to establish if
they are relevant to its business.

Re: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[gekido <ge...@ub...>]

simkin is pretty slick, from a scripting perspective, and simple enough 
that you don't need a CS degree to figure it out...

we continue to find all kinds of interesting uses for it with Reality 
Factory.

cheers

mike w
www.pureanarchygames.com

Parveen Kaler wrote:
> On Wed, 2003-04-16 at 15:59, Marc Fascia wrote:
> 
> 
>>Does anybody have some pointers that could help me in comparing them and
>>choosing one, knowing that the criterions are :
>>- Easiness in binding with C++ classes/integration in the current engine
>>- Simplicity of its syntax (to have quick up-and-running users/coders)
>>- Lightweight
>>- Portable (for console games mainly)
>>- Extra tools available (debugger, editors, win32 syntax highlighting
>>controls ...)
> 
> 
> Some info on Lua.
> http://gamestudies.cdis.org/%7Eamatheson/LUA-Part01/Part01-section01.html
> http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=14433&group_id=65456
> 
> Some like Simkin.
> http://www.simkin.co.uk/
> 
> Both seem to fit your needs on the PC end.  Couldn't tell you about consoles though.
> 

Re: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Parveen K. <pk...@al...>]

On Wed, 2003-04-16 at 15:59, Marc Fascia wrote:

> Does anybody have some pointers that could help me in comparing them and
> choosing one, knowing that the criterions are :
> - Easiness in binding with C++ classes/integration in the current engine
> - Simplicity of its syntax (to have quick up-and-running users/coders)
> - Lightweight
> - Portable (for console games mainly)
> - Extra tools available (debugger, editors, win32 syntax highlighting
> controls ...)

Some info on Lua.
http://gamestudies.cdis.org/%7Eamatheson/LUA-Part01/Part01-section01.html
http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=3D14433&group_id=3D6545=
6

Some like Simkin.
http://www.simkin.co.uk/

Both seem to fit your needs on the PC end.  Couldn't tell you about console=
s though.

--=20
Parveen Kaler <pk...@al...>
http://www.sfu.ca/~pkaler

RE: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Marc F. <ma...@ma...>]

wow cool, I was not even aware this mailing list existed ! Many thanks.
I'm going to subscribe right now !

-Marc

-----Message d'origine-----
De : gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]De la part de
Mick West
Envoye : jeudi 17 avril 2003 01:14
A : gam...@li...
Objet : RE: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages


There was a thread on this subject in GC-Consoles, Starting Feb-17-2003,
you might be able to get to it with:

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553&max_rows=25&st
yle=flat&viewmonth=200302&viewday=17

The usual mixed advice....

Mick.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li... 
> [mailto:gam...@li...] On 
> Behalf Of Marc Fascia
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 4:00 PM
> To: GD General List
> Subject: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm currently having a look at a scripting language to 
> integrate in my game engine. Building a complete home-made 
> solution is not very realistic due to the time I can spend on 
> this point, so I'm looking for an existing and well 
> established one. It seems that Python, Lua and Ruby are 
> popular choices in that topic.
> 
> Does anybody have some pointers that could help me in 
> comparing them and choosing one, knowing that the criterions are :
> - Easiness in binding with C++ classes/integration in the 
> current engine
> - Simplicity of its syntax (to have quick up-and-running users/coders)
> - Lightweight
> - Portable (for console games mainly)
> - Extra tools available (debugger, editors, win32 syntax 
> highlighting controls ...)
> 
> thanks.
> 
> -Marc Fascia
> 
> PS: please excuse me if this message was sent multiple times. 
> I had apparently some troubles in getting subscribed !
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf 
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list 
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
> 



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RE: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages

[Mick W. <mi...@ne...>]

There was a thread on this subject in GC-Consoles, Starting Feb-17-2003,
you might be able to get to it with:

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553&max_rows=25&st
yle=flat&viewmonth=200302&viewday=17

The usual mixed advice....

Mick.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li... 
> [mailto:gam...@li...] On 
> Behalf Of Marc Fascia
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 4:00 PM
> To: GD General List
> Subject: [GD-General] Off the shelf scripting languages
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm currently having a look at a scripting language to 
> integrate in my game engine. Building a complete home-made 
> solution is not very realistic due to the time I can spend on 
> this point, so I'm looking for an existing and well 
> established one. It seems that Python, Lua and Ruby are 
> popular choices in that topic.
> 
> Does anybody have some pointers that could help me in 
> comparing them and choosing one, knowing that the criterions are :
> - Easiness in binding with C++ classes/integration in the 
> current engine
> - Simplicity of its syntax (to have quick up-and-running users/coders)
> - Lightweight
> - Portable (for console games mainly)
> - Extra tools available (debugger, editors, win32 syntax 
> highlighting controls ...)
> 
> thanks.
> 
> -Marc Fascia
> 
> PS: please excuse me if this message was sent multiple times. 
> I had apparently some troubles in getting subscribed !
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf 
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list 
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
>