gamedevlists-design — List for discussing game development design

RE: [GD-Design] Indie games?

[Ivan-Assen I. <as...@ha...>]

> >Actually, I think there is one genre where one person could 
> do a great game: strategy games.

One advice from the trenches: if you start out doing a strategy game,
make sure it doesn't hit the market right between the then-current
iterations of BlizzardCraft and Age Of Ensembles. :-)

RE: [GD-Design] Indie games?

[Ivan-Assen I. <as...@ha...>]

> >Ummm, do you want a digest of the "graphics" sections of 
> Celtic Kings 
> >reviews (by the way, published by the aforementioned StrategyFirst)?
> 
> Out of curiousity, did your company independently develop this title 
> and then shop it around?  
> 
> It sounds like you're not happy with the reviews, but when I read 
> them they seem fairly positive.  In fact, I'd say "congratulations!" 
> to your whole team given that it has sold well in Europe (your Spain 
> blurb caught my eye).
> 
> www.gamerankings.com shows that you got 4.5/5 from GamesDomain, 
> 87/100 from Gamespy, 8.4/10 from GameSpot, etc.  Not too shabby I 
> say.

Thanks!

We shopped it to publishers on several rounds, but found a sensible
deal when it was almost done.

The reviews are mostly positive, yes, with avg of 80% according to
GameRankings,
but the sales outside Spain are nothing to write home about.
So I know first-hand the correlation between sales and review scores is
very weak.

But in almost all reviews there was a mention of how dated the graphics
technology was. If the reviewer had an overall favorable impression
of the game, it was along the lines of "dated but OK", otherwise it was
"too dated to compete".

RE: [GD-Design] Indie games?

[Ivan-Assen I. <as...@ha...>]

> >Not having a whizbang teratexel engine costs you 
> automatically on the 
> >order of 10 (on a 100 scale) in review score.
> 
> Yes, it does, but there's a massive -- and I mean MASSIVE -- 
> disparity between reviews and sales.
> 
> There is a very strong perception that whiz bang technology is what 
> sells a game, or that huge reviews correlate to massive sales, when 
> in fact this just isn't the case.  There are many games that had been 
> ignored by the gaming media which sold very well -- Zoo Tycoon, RC 
> Tycoon, The Sims, Harry Potter -- and there are many well reviewed 
> games that simply didn't sell nearly as much as you would have 
> expected (Homeworld, NOLF).

Yes, of course, but the bad-reviews/good-sales game you mention
have huge marketing behind them, which would not the case with indie
games.

RE: [GD-Design] Indie games?

[Brian H. <ho...@py...>]

>Ummm, do you want a digest of the "graphics" sections of Celtic
>Kings reviews (by the way, published by the aforementioned
>StrategyFirst)?

Out of curiousity, did your company independently develop this=
 title 
and then shop it around?  

It sounds like you're not happy with the reviews, but when I read=
 
them they seem fairly positive.  In fact, I'd say=
 "congratulations!" 
to your whole team given that it has sold well in Europe (your=
 Spain 
blurb caught my eye).

www.gamerankings.com shows that you got 4.5/5 from GamesDomain, 
87/100 from Gamespy, 8.4/10 from GameSpot, etc.  Not too shabby I=
 
say.

Brian

RE: [GD-Design] Indie games?

[Brian H. <ho...@py...>]

>Not having a whizbang teratexel engine costs you automatically=
 on
>the order of 10 (on a 100 scale) in review score.

Yes, it does, but there's a massive -- and I mean MASSIVE -- 
disparity between reviews and sales.

There is a very strong perception that whiz bang technology is=
 what 
sells a game, or that huge reviews correlate to massive sales,=
 when 
in fact this just isn't the case.  There are many games that had=
 been 
ignored by the gaming media which sold very well -- Zoo Tycoon,=
 RC 
Tycoon, The Sims, Harry Potter -- and there are many well=
 reviewed 
games that simply didn't sell nearly as much as you would have 
expected (Homeworld, NOLF).

I'm not doubting that reviews are important, but solid gameplay,=
 word 
of mouth, and a niche genre really can compensate for a perceived=
 
lack of cutting edge content and technology.

If you look at the top 10 selling games, almost none of them=
 would be 
considered technologically advanced.  Everquest is the most=
 popular 
3D on-line game in the world, and it uses vertex lighting, 
single-pass technology ca. 1997.  BF1942 and MOH:AA both have=
 sold 
very well using fairly average engines by today's standards.

Computers are getting faster, but many consumers simply aren't=
 opting 
to upgrade.  My home system is a P3/1000, and will probably stay=
 that 
way for some time because I just don't see a compelling reason to=
 
upgrade.  Many consumers feel this way.

There are strong markets for:

- niche genres
- targeting lower end hardware
- games with lower cost and lower barrier to entry/complexity

We sell _puzzle games_ for $20 and we're surviving quite well.  
Hardcore gameers laugh at us because, hey, Candy Cruncher isn't 
1/10th as cool as Serious Sam, and yet it's the same price.  But=
 our 
consumers DON'T CARE, because they're not buying our games=
 thinking 
"Man, this puzzle game is a rip off because Serious Sam is the=
 same 
price!", they're thinking "Hey, this is fun, I finally found a=
 game I 
can relate to!"

As much as grizzled old game developers really hate to admit, the=
 
fact remains that gameplay, in the end, is what sells.  Maybe not=
 
gameplay _we_ find compelling, but gameplay that the average=
 computer 
user finds compelling will sell copies.

I'd bet almost anything that if RC Tycoon 2 had vertex-shaders,=
 it 
would have sold 1/10th the amount.

Brian

RE: [GD-Design] Indie games?

[Ivan-Assen I. <as...@ha...>]

> Of course, but that genre is a bit more realistic. Players 
> don't demand state-of-the-art multithreaded texturewhizbangs 
> with Cg and THX 6.3 sound in a teratexel DVD engine. Only 
> games with no real playable content need that. :)

Ummm, do you want a digest of the "graphics" sections of Celtic Kings
reviews (by the way, published by the aforementioned StrategyFirst)?
"outdated", "AOE clone", "not up to modern standards", "plain", etc...

Not having a whizbang teratexel engine costs you automatically on the
order of 10 (on a 100 scale) in review score.

Re: [GD-Design] Indie games?

[Jan E. <ch...@in...>]

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Brian Hook wrote:

>>Actually, I think there is one genre where one person could do a
>>great game: strategy games.
>
>Absolutely, and there are indie developers that are doing pretty well 
>in that area.  BattleFront, StarDock and Strategy First all come to 
>mind.  However, titles of this type -- turn-based strategy, 4-X 
>games, etc. -- do not tend to sell particularly well, but maybe 
>enough to sustain a very small team of developers.  Maybe.

Battlefront sold the first Combat Mission only over the web. You got a CD
and a manual. I think it sold pretty well, and after a while it appeared
as a boxed game in shops over here. But CM managed to really revolutionize
WW2 wargaming with their introduction of realistic 3D modelling. 

>Even so, the cost to develop games of this type are far from trivial. 
> Even accepting that "design > tech/art", you still need a lot of 
>content.

Of course, but that genre is a bit more realistic. Players don't demand
state-of-the-art multithreaded texturewhizbangs with Cg and THX 6.3 sound
in a teratexel DVD engine. Only games with no real playable content need
that. :)

-- 

             Gravity is a habit that is hard to shake off.
                                              -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

Re: [GD-Design] Indie games?

[Brian H. <ho...@py...>]

>Actually, I think there is one genre where one person could do=
 a
>great game: strategy games.

Absolutely, and there are indie developers that are doing pretty=
 well 
in that area.  BattleFront, StarDock and Strategy First all come=
 to 
mind.  However, titles of this type -- turn-based strategy, 4-X 
games, etc. -- do not tend to sell particularly well, but maybe 
enough to sustain a very small team of developers.  Maybe.

Even so, the cost to develop games of this type are far from=
 trivial. 
 Even accepting that "design > tech/art", you still need a lot of=
 
content.

The one area where maybe you don't need nearly as much content is=
 
when you build "toys" instead of "games", i.e. think in terms of=
 The 
Sims, RC Tycoon and what not.  Also, competitive on-line play=
 lets 
players effectively provide their own content.  It takes much,=
 much 
longer to develop a 20 hour single player game than it does to 
develop a decent competitive on-line game, at least in terms of 
content.

Hell, on-line games have a lot of things about them that make it=
 even 
easier -- no need to support save games, pause or even AI (unless=
 you 
support bot play or want NPCs thrown into the mix).

-Hook

Re: [GD-Design] Indie games?

[Jan E. <ch...@in...>]

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Brian Hook wrote:

>
>
>On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:32:01 +0200 (EET), Jan Ekholm wrote:
>>
>>Can single persons still make games that get published more
>>officially than "downsuck from here and pay me 25=A4"?
>
>As a generality - no.  You have the VERY infrequent outlier such as=20
>Chris Sawyer (RC Tycoon), but even then he almost didn't get=20
>published.  But that is so rare that to even call him an exception=20
>would be minimizing the completely rarity of such cases.

Ouch.

>>Is it worth even to try to get something published?
>
>Sure, go ahead and try, but just be prepared for rejection and=20
>heartache.  The fact of the matter is that retail games today require=20
>a ton of money and time to make because of the expectation of the=20
>consumer (and publishers) about the size and scope of such games. =20
>"Value" games have no inertia in the market simply because the cost=20
>of shelf space is high enough that most retailers would rather stock=20
>a $50 title than a $20 title in the same slot.

Heh, I don't aspire to get anythin published, it was more general
intesrest that made me ask. I know I could never do anything that anyone
would want to buy.

Actually, I think there is one genre where one person could do a great
game: strategy games. I don't mean RTS games, those have nothing to do
with "strategy", but real hardcore strategy games. Not much has happened
in that field for ages, except maybe for Combat Mission that introduced
the concept of a fully 3D battlefield. One person with a few good ideas
could very well create something very new within this field, and there
*are* people that buy these games, although not as many as those buying
the mainstream "sequel games".

>>Is the games bussiness as
>>evil as the music bussiness where the developers end up with
>>virtually nothing except bills?
>
>Possibly even more evil, because in the music industry at least a=20
>band can tour and pocket a good chunk of that change.  In the=20
>traditional game industry the typical developer is living advance to=20
>advance, and even with a huge hit they're often screwed in the=20
>process.
>
>For example, many starving developers will gladly:
>
>- grant ownership of IP to the publisher
>- grant right of first refusal on subsequent projects to the=20
>publisher
>- grant minority ownership to the publisher

Ugh, I'm glad I make my living coding boring bussiness apps. :)

>It's a rough industry, and maybe 1/20 developers would be considered=20
>"successful".  Look at the all the recent studios that are closing,=20
>often after shipping successful products (Sunstorm (?) who made Deer=20
>Hunter; Presto who made Myst 3; Rogue who made Alice in Wonderland;=20
>Looking Glass, list too long to enumerate; etc.)

Yes, the dumb mass only buys sequels. All EA games for instance are just
sequels to known concepts.

--=20

             Gravity is a habit that is hard to shake off.
                                              -- Terry Pratchett, Small God=
s

Re: [GD-Design] Indie games?

[Brian H. <ho...@py...>]

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:32:01 +0200 (EET), Jan Ekholm wrote:
>
>Can single persons still make games that get published more
>officially than "downsuck from here and pay me 25=A4"?

As a generality - no.  You have the VERY infrequent outlier such=
 as 
Chris Sawyer (RC Tycoon), but even then he almost didn't get 
published.  But that is so rare that to even call him an=
 exception 
would be minimizing the completely rarity of such cases.

>Is it worth even to try to get something published?

Sure, go ahead and try, but just be prepared for rejection and 
heartache.  The fact of the matter is that retail games today=
 require 
a ton of money and time to make because of the expectation of the=
 
consumer (and publishers) about the size and scope of such games.=
  
"Value" games have no inertia in the market simply because the=
 cost 
of shelf space is high enough that most retailers would rather=
 stock 
a $50 title than a $20 title in the same slot.

If a market is large enough to be financially interesting then=
 it's 
usually already heavily mined by the big publishers, almost 
definitely to the exclusion of the smaller indies.  The few=
 bastions 
of borderline commercial indie gaming -- Palm Pilots, PocketPC --=
 are 
so niche that major publishers have almost no interest in=
 pursuing 
them.  And, as a result, it's tough to make a living as an indie=
 
selling into that space.

>Is the games bussiness as
>evil as the music bussiness where the developers end up with
>virtually nothing except bills?

Possibly even more evil, because in the music industry at least a=
 
band can tour and pocket a good chunk of that change.  In the 
traditional game industry the typical developer is living advance=
 to 
advance, and even with a huge hit they're often screwed in the 
process.

For example, many starving developers will gladly:

- grant ownership of IP to the publisher
- grant right of first refusal on subsequent projects to the 
publisher
- grant minority ownership to the publisher

It's a rough industry, and maybe 1/20 developers would be=
 considered 
"successful".  Look at the all the recent studios that are=
 closing, 
often after shipping successful products (Sunstorm (?) who made=
 Deer 
Hunter; Presto who made Myst 3; Rogue who made Alice in=
 Wonderland; 
Looking Glass, list too long to enumerate; etc.)

This is why if someone is really thinking about being an indie,=
 they 
need to think long and hard if they want to fight on the=
 "system's" 
turf.  It's a losing battle there.

-Hook

[GD-Design] Indie games?

[Jan E. <ch...@in...>]

After the recent discussions about indie games and getting them published
I got a bit curious.=20

Can single persons still make games that get published more officially
than "downsuck from here and pay me 25=A4"? Is it worth even to try to get
something published? Is the games bussiness as evil as the music bussiness
where the developers end up with virtually nothing except bills?

No, I don't have anything I'd like to get published. H*ll, I'd have to be
happy if someone would even download our game for free! :)

--
Voodoo is a very interesting religion for the whole family, even those
    members of it who are dead.
                          -- Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens
=09=09      =20

Re: [GD-Design] Indie - Publishing Services?

[Mike W. <ge...@ub...>]

Brian Hook wrote:

>>another is andre lamothe's www.xgames3d.com - haven't heard much
>>    
>>
>>from him lately however...after that lawsuit, i'm not sure how well
>  
>
>>they are doing.
>>    
>>
>What lawsuit?
>  
>
they got sued for a bunch of games that were very similar to existing 
games, extremely ancient ones like centipede, that type of thing, clones 
if you might say.  that was a few years ago.  i believe it was hasbro 
that was suing them, as they did for many other developers (gt 
interactive, etc)

they used to have a page on their site that had a bunch of info to try 
and help them raise money to fight it, but i didn't hear of any followup...

tried to find the page, doesn't seem to be there...his horrible music on 
the site drove me away before i could look too much further ;}

>>[shameless plug time]
>>my company is currently preparing a publishing site for the game
>>engine we support as well, but the goal is definitely to have games
>>with other engines included as well.
>>    
>>
>
>Actually, can you go ahead and describe some more on-list what this 
>is about?  Hard to say it's "off-topic", although maybe this should 
>migrate to gamedevlists-general as a more appropriate forum.
>
will do - posting a followup for those seeking more info there.

mike w
www.uber-geek.ca

Re: [GD-Design] Indie - Publishing Services?

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

>another is andre lamothe's www.xgames3d.com - haven't heard=
 much
>from him lately however...after that lawsuit, i'm not sure how=
 well
>they are doing.

What lawsuit?

>[shameless plug time]
>my company is currently preparing a publishing site for the=
 game
>engine we support as well, but the goal is definitely to have=
 games
>with other engines included as well.

Actually, can you go ahead and describe some more on-list what=
 this 
is about?  Hard to say it's "off-topic", although maybe this=
 should 
migrate to gamedevlists-general as a more appropriate forum.

Brian

Re: [GD-Design] Indie - Publishing Services?

[Dave M. <dm...@od...>]

Mike Wuetherick wrote:
> >GarageGames.com only publishes torque-based games (CMIIW).
> >
> this is not correct, they will publish games that are not torque-based,
> or so they claim. one of the games they opened their doors with wasn't
> torque-based in fact, however it was developed by one of the owners of
> the company so that might not be a good example.

  Close.  I'm shilling for my friends here, so I'm going to be
ana^H^H^Hprecise. :)  Of the 4 games GG is currently publishing, it
breaks down like this:

Chain Reaction (Torque): Developed w/ Jeff Tunnell's Monster Studios
  Marble Blast (Torque): Developed in-house
   Robot Blast (Custom): Developed by Lunkwill Labs, an indie
          Orbz (Torque): Developed by 21-6, an indie

  Monster Studios is an indie, but obviously pretty closely tied to
GarageGames.  I'm sure they would love to talk to anyone who's
interested in publishing games online, Torque-based or not.

				...dave

Re: [GD-Design] Indie - Publishing Services?

[Mike W. <ge...@ub...>]

>
>
>GarageGames.com only publishes torque-based games (CMIIW).
>
this is not correct, they will publish games that are not torque-based,
or so they claim. one of the games they opened their doors with wasn't
torque-based in fact, however it was developed by one of the owners of
the company so that might not be a good example.

another is andre lamothe's www.xgames3d.com - haven't heard much from
him lately however...after that lawsuit, i'm not sure how well they are
doing.

[shameless plug time]
my company is currently preparing a publishing site for the game engine
we support as well, but the goal is definitely to have games with other
engines included as well.

email me offlist (mi...@ub...) if you would like more information.
  not sure how far into development you are, but we'll have the doors
open in about a month.  it won't be the end-all-be-all publishing
solution, but will give indie developers an easy way to get their games
promoted and available for sale online.

the deal will be similar to the garagegames.com and xgames3d.com
publishing deals.
[/shameless plug]

i agree with brian's comment however, that this is a market that is just
waiting to explode - this is the primary reason we've decided to make
the move.

cheers

mike w
www.uber-geek.ca

Re: [GD-Design] Indie - Publishing Services?

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

I feel bad that this has come up on numerous occasions and I=
 haven't 
said anything since I'm an ardent indie, so I'll pipe up now.

First thing first -- I'm trying to work with the IGDA to=
 establish a 
strong indie forum and presence at igda.org where indies can get=
 
together and discuss stuff just like this.  We've held off on=
 doing a 
gam...@li... since having a Web site=
 
with other resources would be really nice.

Secondly, there are no really strong places that specialize in=
 third 
party publication of indie titles.  If you want to go the puzzle=
 
game/downloadable market, your best bet is RealArcade.  If you=
 want 
to go for a more mainstream retail presence, you're going to have=
 to 
target value and/or second/third-tier publishers, and you'll=
 likely 
have to have a nearly finished product.

Brian

[GD-Design] Indie - Publishing Services?

[y o g i w p <yo...@gm...>]

Strange, google doesn't give useful results on this one :(

Anyone know good publishing services? Specifically, we need ones
that specialize in small 2D puzzle/arcade games.
Dexterity.com doesn't do it anymore, and GarageGames.com only
publishes torque-based games (CMIIW).

At this point (small team just starting indie) we don't want to worry
about publishing.

Re: [GD-Design] Indie Getting Started

[y o g i w p <yo...@gm...>]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marin Kovacic" <m.k...@in...>

> Check my reply to yogiwp. Are you guys on the indie-gamedev-l?
> Let's move there, it's as good as dead and some traffic would do
> it good. ;-)
> 
> http://www.onelist.com/community/indie-gamedev-l

My membership is still pending since last week :(

Re: [GD-Design] Indie Getting Started

[Jan E. <ch...@in...>]

On Fri, 14 Feb 2003, Marin Kovacic wrote:

>> > I've been reading their indie forums for a past few months and it
>> > seems that at least few people feel extremely positive about
>> > working with them. Unfortunately, they don't take outside
>> > submissions any more.
>> What do you mean by outside submissions? Outside USA? I hope not... :(
>
>Check my reply to yogiwp. Are you guys on the indie-gamedev-l?
>Let's move there, it's as good as dead and some traffic would do
>it good. ;-)

Heh, and this list then isn't dead? This is the first discussion I've seen
here for months. :)

-- 
        Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind.
                                              -- Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

Re: [GD-Design] Indie Getting Started

[Dave M. <dm...@od...>]

> Specific recommendations (e.g. good electronic distribution services)
> are welcomed. Any thoughts, experience sharing, or pointer to relevant

  You might try GarageGames (http://www.garagegames.com/).  They're
entirely focused on online-only publishing of indie games, and are
currently publishing a few in-house and out-of-house titles.  By way of
full disclosure, I used to work with these guys before they started GG.

  Their standard publishing deal (terms outlined at
http://www.garagegames.com/pg/publishing.php) is at a 65% developer
royalty rate.  Since all the guys that work there used to be involved in
the Tribes franchise, they get decent exposure on places like
www.bluesnews.com, which can't hurt...:)

				...dave

Re: [GD-Design] Indie Getting Started

[Marin K. <m.k...@in...>]

> > I've been reading their indie forums for a past few months and it
> > seems that at least few people feel extremely positive about
> > working with them. Unfortunately, they don't take outside
> > submissions any more.
> What do you mean by outside submissions? Outside USA? I hope not... :(

Check my reply to yogiwp. Are you guys on the indie-gamedev-l?
Let's move there, it's as good as dead and some traffic would do
it good. ;-)

http://www.onelist.com/community/indie-gamedev-l

Re: [GD-Design] Indie Getting Started

[Marin K. <m.k...@in...>]

> > Unfortunately, they don't take outside
> > submissions any more.
> What do you mean by "outside submissions"?

From Steve Pavlina's post:

"As a result we won't need to rely as much on outside submissions
and will probably stop accepting them soon (at least for a while).
Internal projects and upcoming games from developers who've already
worked with us should supply most (if not all) of the new games we'll
need for the rest of the year. Plus we continue to look for publishable
games on our own, which is a lot less time consuming and costly than
evaluating potentially hundreds of submissions looking for that one gem."

Check here

http://www.dexterity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=1502b65d59fd40f29d557d5dabf
ce50f&threadid=435&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

for the whole thread (watch for URL wrap).

They have already removed the online submission form from the
site, and Steve has confirmed me that they have decided to stop
accepting outside submissions completely for now.

Re: [GD-Design] Indie Getting Started

[Ivan G. <dea...@ga...>]

> I've been reading their indie forums for a past few months and it
> seems that at least few people feel extremely positive about
> working with them. Unfortunately, they don't take outside
> submissions any more.
Hi!

What do you mean by outside submissions? Outside USA? I hope not... :(

-Ivan

Re: [GD-Design] Indie Getting Started

[y o g i w p <yo...@gm...>]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marin Kovacic" <m.k...@in...>

> Unfortunately, they don't take outside
> submissions any more.

What do you mean by "outside submissions"?

Re: [GD-Design] Indie Getting Started

[Marin K. <m.k...@in...>]

> Thanks for the input.
> I'm wondering if anyone have good experiences with Dexterity Software?

I've been reading their indie forums for a past few months and it
seems that at least few people feel extremely positive about
working with them. Unfortunately, they don't take outside
submissions any more.

> Btw, anyone know a better place to discuss this topic?

http://www.onelist.com/community/indie-gamedev-l  ?