gamedevlists-design — List for discussing game development design

RE: [GD-Design] Design Documents

[Matthew N. <Ma...@re...>]

I don't really have an answer to your questions but I have one to add :-)

How long and how detailed are people's design docs generally? I personally
feel that our design docs could do with being a little longer and more in
depth but I don't know how they compare to those used elsewhere in the
industry. I read in the Deus Ex post mortem that their design doc ran to
hundreds of pages, which is rather more detail than we have in ours...

Matt.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Philip Harris [mailto:ph...@me...]
> Sent: 06 November 2001 14:04
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Design] Design Documents
> 
> 
> Two questions about design docs.
> 
> Firstly, given that for a reasonable size project the design 
> doc is going to
> exceed several hundred pages, how do people organise them. 
> Single word doc,
> multiple word docs, HTML?
> 
> Secondly, are these documents kept up to date and if so how?
> 
> Or...does nobody bother with them in the first place.
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-design mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-design
> 

RE: [GD-Design] Design Documents

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

We bother. Split into components: design, technical, art, etc. Assign owners
to different components (generally the leads). It's their responsibility to
keep it up to date (and to decide how up to date is appropriate under the
circumstances).

Sorry about being terse; finishing demo :)

Jamie


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Philip Harris
Sent: 06 November 2001 14:04
To: gam...@li...
Subject: [GD-Design] Design Documents


Two questions about design docs.

Firstly, given that for a reasonable size project the design doc is going to
exceed several hundred pages, how do people organise them. Single word doc,
multiple word docs, HTML?

Secondly, are these documents kept up to date and if so how?

Or...does nobody bother with them in the first place.

Phil


_______________________________________________
Gamedevlists-design mailing list
Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-design

[GD-Design] Design Documents

[Philip H. <ph...@me...>]

Two questions about design docs.

Firstly, given that for a reasonable size project the design doc is going to
exceed several hundred pages, how do people organise them. Single word doc,
multiple word docs, HTML?

Secondly, are these documents kept up to date and if so how?

Or...does nobody bother with them in the first place.

Phil

[GD-Design] List Reply Issues

[Tom H. <to...@3d...>]

OK, I've gotten some information back from SourceForge. The change was part 
of a recent global policy change. We were not consulted before it happened, 
it was just made for us because they feel this is the way lists should be 
run. Needless to say I don't agree with them.

I've gotten the email address of the person we'll need to talk to in order 
to get this changed (all I want it the ability to specify it on a per-list 
basis .. which is what we used to have) but he is on vacation for the rest 
of the week. Unfortunately, I'll be gone on my honeymoon next week so I 
won't be able to talk to him until around the 16th. I'm gonna drop the guy 
an email now and leave him contact information for Brian. We'll take this 
one step at a time, but hopefully we'll get things changed back to normal soon.

Tom

RE: [GD-Design] A few questions

[Tom H. <to...@3d...>]

At 02:23 PM 9/16/2001, you wrote:
>
> > It depends entirely on the game itself.
>
>Actually, it really depends on what your product's strength is.  If you
>have a great design and need the right technology, then base your
>technology on the design.  But, if you have a great technology, try to
>derive a design that leverages that technology.

(It strikes me that almost every single post on the list is going to be 
someone's opinion .. heh)

If your intent is to make a game, then the game should be the most 
important thing and the engine, art, sound, and everything else are the 
tools and materials to make it happen. You design the tools and materials 
to meet the goals of the game. You don't design the game to meet the 
abilities of the engine. However, there are certainly limitations in the 
engine / platform that will most definitely affect the game design and 
those need to be understood, evaluated, and resolved during the design 
process as best as you can.

What Brian says has a lot of merit as well. If you have some technology, 
not enough time to build new technology, and content creators that are used 
to be working with the tools then it makes a lot of sense to try to come up 
with game concepts that will work within the existing engine. However, the 
original poster doesn't seem to have any existing tech, so I go back to, 
"What kind of game are ya making?" :)

Tom

RE: [GD-Design] Topics for this list?

[Brian H. <pu...@py...>]

> Anyway, what are the topics for this list? What is "allowed" 
> and what is not? Everyone and his aunt nowadays does FPS or 
> RTS games, but are those the only games that will be discussed here?

Any type of game _design_ issues are encouraged for discussion.  This
can mean FPS, strategy, puzzle, adventure, whatever floats your boat.
The introduction message has been slightly updated to reflect this.  The
only really major rule is that things stay on-topic, which means talking
about pure technology or platform issues should be redirected to the
appropriate mailing lists.

Regards,

Brian

RE: [GD-Design] A few questions

[Brian H. <pu...@py...>]

 
> It depends entirely on the game itself.

Actually, it really depends on what your product's strength is.  If you
have a great design and need the right technology, then base your
technology on the design.  But, if you have a great technology, try to
derive a design that leverages that technology.

Brian

Re: [GD-Design] A few questions

[Death H. <dea...@ga...>]

> >2. I am currently trying many different techniques, and I always need
some
> >sampla level data. Can you recommend some (preferably free) level editors
> >with ability to export to a custom format, or at least with a good
> >documentation about the available format?
>
> For interior and character modelling stuff, I'd look into the Quake
> editors. There's tons of free ones, and a lot of people that know how to
> use them.

As for modelling tools, I use Milkshape3D. It's not that expensive, and I
need a model editor anyway. Besides, it supports quake, hl, unreal... models
and animations, so I have lots of test data at the bare beginning. But I
still can't decide about the level editor. It seems Worldcraft is the
best... but people also like Quoole, Q3radiant... does any of you have any
experiences with some of them? And a question for Tom: what's the current
number of subscribers to this list?
Thanks, and I hope I'm not bothering too much.
DHunter.

Re: [GD-Design] Topics for this list?

[Death H. <dea...@ga...>]

> Anyway, what are the topics for this list? What is "allowed" and what is
> not? Everyone and his aunt nowadays does FPS or RTS games, but are those
> the only games that will be discussed here?

I am not the one who founded this list, however, it should be used for
discussions about game development, the type of the game was not specified.

> I'd like to see some discussion on programming hardcore strategic games.
> I've so far found no forum on the 'net for discussing development of these
> kinds of games, so I'm hoping a few developers would find their way
> here...
>
As long as it is related to *design* of a *game*, I believe it's welcome.
And if it's not related directly to design, maybe you should try the
'general' list...
My appologize to Tom if I have stated anything wrong... please correct me.
Otherwise, hope this helps.
DHunter

[GD-Design] Technology in 4X games

[Jasper M. <ja...@st...>]

Okay.  Jan, wanted some talk of strategy games, and I agree that there's
plenty of good discussion to be had surrounding them.  My personal
interests mostly lie in strategy and role playing games, though 1st
person games have a lot going on behind them too--at least potentially.

At any rate, I'd like to talk about the technology mechanics used in
4X strategy titles.  I know this is often a "hot topic" on message
boards for such games, but that doesn't mean there's nothing left
to say.  Some of the older ideas are, I agree, pretty tired, but I'd
like to see ideas for entirely new technology systems--just as a
matter of interest, even if they're not totally practical.

Now, I tend to be more interested in designing 4X space "empire" games
myself, but there are many incarnations of the 4X, including more
historical games.  There are many differences here.  Take Moo2 and Civ2
for instance.

In Civilization 2, each technology was its own discrete entity, and
you empire either had it or it didn't.  Each technology allowed the
research of new technologies and itself relied on other, earlier
techs.  This is the first part of a technology system I find important:
the relationships between techs.  Moo2 had a slightly different system,
where techs were grouped into major branches of science.  Instead of
moving up through the techs, one by one, as in Civ, the Moo2 player
had to select which of six or so techs he wanted most within a given
field, and there was no way to get the rest aside from trade.  

The second important aspect of a technology system, I'd say, is how
technology affects the game.  I.E. in Civ2, each discrete tech gave
you new units, new buildings, etc.  Meaning that in general, you got
access to specific new options.  In Moo2, many of the techs instead
gave you some kind of benefit which couldn't directly be observed as
a new unit, like better radar tracking.

Lastly, there's how research is accomplished.  Can the player choose
what it is he wants or is it random?  Can he theoretically research
everything or are his selections limited?  Is the rate of research
fixed or can he built institutions and/or enact decrees that affect it?


This post is getting pretty long as it is, so maybe I'll go into my
own new system in another post, but what does everyone think?  What
games have had significantly different tech systems?  What about
some ideas for new ones?

--
Jasper "Asmaul" McChesney 
ja...@st... / ja...@ja...
"You told me, Regin, that this dragon was no larger than
a serpent, but his tracks seem excessively large to me."
 - Sigurd, Saga of the Volsungs

Re: [GD-Design] A few questions

[Tom H. <to...@3d...>]

At 05:03 AM 9/16/2001, Death Hunter wrote:
>Hello all!
>
>     I have been waiting for such a game list for a long time now. I hope 
> the following questions belong here.
>
>1. When designing games, engine design is very important. So I was 
>wondering what is your method of choice for culling? BSP? Portals? 
>Octrees? Something else?

It depends entirely on the game itself. You need to decide what kind of 
worlds you need to represent, then chose a level description and engine 
style that gives you performance needed to make the game concept work. As a 
(very) general rule of thumb is that BSP and portal engines are good for 
interiors, and octrees / quadtrees (and their derivatives) are good for 
exteriors. You do a lot of culling in interiors, but exteriors are much 
more difficult do things like occlusion or PVS style culling. Since octrees 
are more flexible, I think we're seeing a lot of them used for both 
interiors and exteriors these days. Also, there's a lot of hybrid solutions 
(like octrees at a high level, with leaves containing BSP trees).

Design the game first, then figure out how much you can support with 
different engine types and at what performance. There's always a trade-off 
but until you know what the requirements are, designing the engine it 
really a waste of time.

>2. I am currently trying many different techniques, and I always need some 
>sampla level data. Can you recommend some (preferably free) level editors 
>with ability to export to a custom format, or at least with a good 
>documentation about the available format?

For interior and character modelling stuff, I'd look into the Quake 
editors. There's tons of free ones, and a lot of people that know how to 
use them.

Tom

[GD-Design] A few questions

[Death H. <dea...@ga...>]

Hello all!

    I have been waiting for such a game list for a long time now. I hope =
the following questions belong here.

1. When designing games, engine design is very important. So I was =
wondering what is your method of choice for culling? BSP? Portals? =
Octrees? Something else?=20

2. I am currently trying many different techniques, and I always need =
some sampla level data. Can you recommend some (preferably free) level =
editors with ability to export to a custom format, or at least with a =
good documentation about the available format?

Thank you.
DHunter