gamedevlists-design — List for discussing game development design

RE: [GD-Design] demo vs complete game

[Tom H. <to...@ve...>]

At 07:56 AM 8/20/2003, you wrote:
>Oh yeah, and don't give up the day job just yet - the uptake rate on even
>the best games is horribly low. :-(

This is true for most games, and not quitting your day job is good advice. 
However, there are pure shareware companies (Popcap for example) pulling 
down enough revenue each year to be running ~20 person companies on it.

Obviously this isn't easy, and the majority of shareware games out there 
make hundreds per month, a decent number make thousands, and very few makes 
tens of thousands ;)

As for the original post, you should look at what the games from Popcap and 
GameHouse do to promote upsell as they're probably the most successful in 
this area and they're often working on this stuff to tweak it to get better 
results.

Tom

RE: [GD-Design] demo vs complete game

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

IMHO, let the user have one complete play through the demo before =
giving
them nag screens. If you nag them too early, they just get annoyed. If =
they
only play the demo once, they weren't going to buy the full game =
anyway. But
if they play the game a _second_ time... then it's worth telling them =
about
the cool things in the full version.

Oh yeah, and don't give up the day job just yet - the uptake rate on =
even
the best games is horribly low. :-(

*cough* need any beta-testers? *cough* :-)

Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ignacio Casta=F1o [mailto:cas...@ya...]
> Sent: 20 August 2003 15:10
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Design] demo vs complete game
>=20
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I'm finishing a small game that I've been working on, that=20
> I'm planing to
> sell online, and I'm wondering which should be the=20
> differences between the
> demo and the registered game. For example here a few ideas:
>=20
> - Offering new features: new levels, and new options (fullscreen,
> highscores, etc).
> - Displaying nag screens, and reminders.
> - Limiting the play count.
>=20
> I would like to hear other ideas and to know which of those=20
> techniques are
> more effective in order to sell a game.
>=20
> Thanks in advance,
>=20
> --
> Ignacio Casta=F1o
> cas...@ya...

RE: [GD-Design] demo vs complete game

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

The best (In my opinion ofcource) is not to cripple, and not to time, =
and
not too many "buy me" screens.

You want to give them an enjoyable time, long enough to want more, but =
not
too long to feel they have gotten it all. Duke Nukem and Doom got the
balance right, they each had (IIRC) 3 sections and the first was free.

So if your game is level based, just limit the number of free levels =
IMO

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ignacio Casta=F1o [mailto:cas...@ya...]
> Sent: 20 August 2003 15:10
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Design] demo vs complete game
>=20
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I'm finishing a small game that I've been working on, that=20
> I'm planing to
> sell online, and I'm wondering which should be the=20
> differences between the
> demo and the registered game. For example here a few ideas:
>=20
> - Offering new features: new levels, and new options (fullscreen,
> highscores, etc).
> - Displaying nag screens, and reminders.
> - Limiting the play count.
>=20
> I would like to hear other ideas and to know which of those=20
> techniques are
> more effective in order to sell a game.
>=20
> Thanks in advance,
>=20
> --
> Ignacio Casta=F1o
> cas...@ya...
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by Dice.com.
> Did you know that Dice has over 25,000 tech jobs available today? =
From
> careers in IT to Engineering to Tech Sales, Dice has tech=20
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> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-design
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D556
>=20

Re: [GD-Design] demo vs complete game

[Brian H. <ho...@py...>]

> - Offering new features: new levels, and new options (fullscreen,
> highscores, etc)

Additional content is always a good thing.  I would be leery of making 
fullscreen a registered-only version, since it affects satisfaction of 
the demo version.  Highscores are similar in that respect.

> Displaying nag screens, and reminders

Yes, but not to the degree such that the game is no longer enjoyable.  
Nag them when they're anxious but not actively trying to play the 
game, e.g. during startup, exit, highscores, in between levels, etc.

> Limiting the play count.

Yes.  There is an art to this however -- set the count too low, and 
they may not get addicted to it enough.  Set the count too high, and 
they may play it out and get bored before it kicks in.  The general #s 
I've used are 10-20 sessions.  Also, limit the number of games they 
can play during a session, e.g. 4 games and then it quits (with a nag 
screen).  Many players will bypass the play count limit by never 
shutting down the game.

> I would like to hear other ideas and to know which of those
> techniques are more effective in order to sell a game.

It depends on the type of game.

Brian

[GD-Design] demo vs complete game

[<cas...@ya...>]

Hi,

I'm finishing a small game that I've been working on, that I'm planing to
sell online, and I'm wondering which should be the differences between the
demo and the registered game. For example here a few ideas:

- Offering new features: new levels, and new options (fullscreen,
highscores, etc).
- Displaying nag screens, and reminders.
- Limiting the play count.

I would like to hear other ideas and to know which of those techniques are
more effective in order to sell a game.

Thanks in advance,

--
Ignacio Castaño
cas...@ya...

RE: [GD-Design] About Face 2.0

[mitea <mi...@bb...>]

Sure, shoot away!

----------------------------------
Peace and love,
Tweety
mi...@bb... - twe...@us...
YahooID: tweety_04_01


> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li... 
> [mailto:gam...@li...] On 
> Behalf Of Brian Hook
> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 7:10 PM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Design] About Face 2.0
> 
> 
> I've been playing a lot of games recently, and by and large most of 
> them have atrocious user interfaces -- Zelda: Legend of the 
> Wind Waker 
> has come the closest to having a very well done interface + 
> transparent tutorial.  
> 
> I finally got around to reading About Face 2.0, which is a highly 
> recommended book on user interaction design, and I just thought I'd 
> put in my recommendation to those of you interested in doing 
> intuitive 
> interfaces.
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 

[GD-Design] About Face 2.0

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

I've been playing a lot of games recently, and by and large most of 
them have atrocious user interfaces -- Zelda: Legend of the Wind Waker 
has come the closest to having a very well done interface + 
transparent tutorial.  

I finally got around to reading About Face 2.0, which is a highly 
recommended book on user interaction design, and I just thought I'd 
put in my recommendation to those of you interested in doing intuitive 
interfaces.

Brian

Re: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[Mark W. <mw...@cs...>]

As for book suggestions, I really recommend "Game Coding Complete", by Mike 
McShaffry, which was very recently (within the last month or so) 
released.  The ISBN is 1-932111-75-1.

Despite the name, it doesn't attempt the impossible feat of living up to 
its title.  It does however cover many of the "big picture" design and 
organization issues in games (eg, what to put in the main loop), logistical 
code (eg, resource caching/management), and software engineering "best 
practices", which is stuff that most "general" game dev books focusing on 
implementation of graphics, algorithms, etc. don't cover much, if at 
all.  While it's Windows/DirectX-specific in terms of the exposition and 
example code, pretty much every concept discussed is relevant across 
multiple platforms, too.

And, there's a lot of funny anecdotes in it as well. =)

-- Mark

At 03:38 AM 7/2/2003, di...@di... wrote:

>Thanx for answers.  Maybe you can give me also some suggestions for the
>first part of my questions.
>
>Also thanx for the book tip. Are there any other books on software
>design that you can recommend? Especially concerning games :-)
>
>Best regards
>
>Dirk
>
>
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--
Mark Wang                     | "There are two things to come out of
mailto:mw...@cs...  | Berkeley, LSD and BSD.  We don't
http://www.markwang.com/      | believe this to be a coincidence."
AIM:markwang99 YIM:mwang_1999 | -- Jeremy S. Anderson

RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> Thanx for your honest words. To clear things up let me tell 
> you what I do:

Sure, like I said, I assumed you were a hobbist, but wasn't sure.

> I work at a university and we research about emotions in 
> motion and my task
> is to write some kind of API that could be used in a game 
> environment. 

What you really want to do is write it totally renderer neutral. Assuming
you are talking about emotions in the skeleton animation sense, then make
your API use hooks into the 'game' allowing your matrices to be set and
queried.

One thing you might want to look into is Granny by
http://www.radgametools.com/ (I haven't actually seen the sdk though)

> The
> reason I asked was to get an idea how games are implemented 
> by professionals
> and not hobbist.

Okie.

> So maybe we forget the question and maybe you allow me to ask 
> again but in a
> different way.
> What is a renderer? 

Well, to me (personally) a renderer is the low level part of the graphics
engine that handles the actual submission of the graphics
(faces/verts/materials etc) to the graphics card. A renderer might (but
doesn't always) include culling, animation etc. It's lower level than what I
assume you want to be working on.

What you want are hooks into your system to allow the glue code between your
API and the renderer to query the matrices.

> And how is it implemented in a common 
> way? 

I don't think there is a 'common' way.

> What classes
> and functions contains the render module normally? E.g: Is a 
> class that
> represents a TriMesh part of the renderer module?

Yes, typically mesh/vertex array/vertex buffer/shader/material are bits of
the renderer, sometimes animation/animation set/pvs are also, but often they
are written in a layer above the renderer.

> 
> Best regards
> 
> Dirk

________________________
Regards, Gareth Lewin
Programmer, Sudeki
http://www.xbox.com/Sudeki

Re: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[Dirk G. <di...@di...>]

Thanx for your honest words. To clear things up let me tell you what I do:

I work at a university and we research about emotions in motion and my task
is to write some kind of API that could be used in a game environment. The
reason I asked was to get an idea how games are implemented by professionals
and not hobbist.

So maybe we forget the question and maybe you allow me to ask again but in a
different way.
What is a renderer? And how is it implemented in a common way? What classes
and functions contains the render module normally? E.g: Is a class that
represents a TriMesh part of the renderer module?

Best regards

Dirk


----- Original Message -----
From: "Garett Bass" <gt...@st...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer


> Dirk wrote:
>
> > E.g: Let's say we have a base class IRenderer which is
> > implemented by two derived class COGLRendererImpl and
> > CDXRendererImpl. Both derived classes implement a virtual
> > function IRenderer::Init(...). The arguments vary with
> > the OS. On a Windows platform you have to pass the HWND
> > for the window, on a Linux system that could be totally
> > different.
>
> I don't know how others handle this, but I have a windowing system
> abstraction layer that hides all the platform specifics such as window
> handles and such, and just lets me create, size, move windows.  One
subclass
> of the window class is a 3D context window, which can be sized and moved,
> and can be initialized with a specific pixel format.  This should be Linux
> friendly since the platform implementation details are hidden.
>
> I don't expose any private variables in the class header, instead I handle
> all of the platform specifics within the .cpp files using maps to
associate
> data with the interface classes as needed.  In Win32 there is very little
> that must be stored aside from the hwnd and hdc, just about everything
else
> can be queried from the Win32 API.
>
> I don't know enough about Direct3D to design for it, but OpenGL makes this
> easy because my 3D context window can handle all wgl* specifics like
> MakeCurrent and SwapBuffers, and otherwise I can just call OpenGL
functions
> anywhere in my code and the current context receives them automagically.
>
> YMMV,
> Garett Bass
> gt...@st...
>
>
>
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RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

couldn't agree more :)

J

-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Gareth Lewin
Sent: 02 July 2003 14:13
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer


(And with little effort, Jamie and myself bring us back to game design, sort
of)

Yes, one of the problems hobby projects have is the lack of proffesionalism.
Normally there is no game design, there is no goal, and thus no completion.
The other type of hobby projects that fail (Like a lot of my own) are
because they are too grand in scope, so even if they have a very well
written design (game design I mean) they never get done.

Thus the IOTDs on flipcode which are "I finished my first game, it's a
bomberman/tetris/quake clone" impress me way more than "I implemented an
engine with the following list of buzzwords". Ofcourse each case is
differant.

So when asked how to get into the industry, I tell them to design(see:)) a
simple game and make it, from start to end, make sure it's finished, that
will impress your potential employers more :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jamie Fowlston [mailto:ja...@qu...]
> Sent: 02 July 2003 13:47
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
>
>
> True. I tend to think the main problem with hobby projects is
> that you set
> out to write an engine with no idea of what you want it to
> actually _do_,
> and so it all becomes a fairly meaningless exercise in what
> flavour of code
> you fancy that month....
>
> Yeah, i thought it was about game design too :)
>
> J
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li...
> [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
> Gareth Lewin
> Sent: 02 July 2003 12:17
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
>
>
> Yes, but your requirements are differant to the standard. The
> original email
> talked about linux/windows and not about consoles.
>
> Also, I made the (maybe incorrect) assumption that he is a
> hobbyist, and
> spending time R&Ding an OGL and DX renderer is (in my
> opinion) silly and a
> waste of time. The reality is that a lot of hobbyists spend a
> lot of type
> working on cross platform stuff when in reality their work
> will only ever be
> run on a single platform, instead of utilising that same time
> in a more
> constructive (in my subjective opinion) way.
>
> As you well know, the real differant between
> ps/2,xbox/dx/ogl/cube etc is
> the high and the low ends (the syntax is differant, and low level
> optimizations are differant) but the basics are the same, and
> stuff you
> learn with just a single platform are applicable everywhere.
> ________________________
> Regards, Gareth Lewin
> Programmer, Sudeki
> http://www.xbox.com/Sudeki
>
> P.S. Isn't this list about game design, not software design ? :)
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jamie Fowlston [mailto:ja...@qu...]
> > Sent: 02 July 2003 12:08
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
> >
> >
> > Hmm, we support multiple platforms, and haven't found OGL solves our
> > problems on PS2 & Xbox :)
> >
> > Doing both on Windows is a good exercise for your
> > architecture, to test you
> > can really have different drivers.
> >
> > Jamie
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gam...@li...
> > [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
> > Gareth Lewin
> > Sent: 02 July 2003 10:12
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
> >
> >
> > Sorry to ask a stupid question, but why implement both an
> OGL and a DX
> > renderer ? Either your product is windows only, in which case
> > DirectX or
> > OpenGL are good, or you want to support multiple platforms,
> > and in that case
> > OGL solves all your problems.
> >
> > Spending time on keeping two distint rendering engines up to
> > date is a waste
> > of time, and now days there is no clear advantage to that
> > that I can see.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Dirk Gregorius [mailto:di...@di...]
> > > Sent: 01 July 2003 10:19
> > > To: gam...@li...
> > > Subject: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I am wondering how you implement your render interfaces? On
> > > what abstraction
> > > level is a renderer normally implemented - what are the
> > > typical functions
> > > and classes? Do you pass a renderer reference to all
> > > renderable entities?
> > > And how is platform independence achieved - do you use
> > > polymorphism or for
> > > example the "Bridge" pattern - that by its definition
> > > seperates abstraction
> > > and implementation? Maybe you can give me some tips.
> > >
> > > One thing that I really don't understand is how to implement the
> > > initialisation such that it works platform independent? E.g:
> > > Let's say we
> > > have a base class IRenderer which is implemented by two
> > derived class
> > > COGLRendererImpl and CDXRendererImpl. Both derived classes
> > implement a
> > > virtual function IRenderer::Init(...). The arguments vary
> > > with the OS. On a
> > > Windows platform you have to pass the HWND for the window, on
> > > a Linux system
> > > that could be totally different. What is the best to handle this?
> > >
> > > Hopefully I could make myself clear.  Every help is appreciated!!
> > >
> > > Best regards
> > >
> > >
> > > Dirk
> > >
> > >
> > >
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RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

(And with little effort, Jamie and myself bring us back to game design, sort
of)

Yes, one of the problems hobby projects have is the lack of proffesionalism.
Normally there is no game design, there is no goal, and thus no completion.
The other type of hobby projects that fail (Like a lot of my own) are
because they are too grand in scope, so even if they have a very well
written design (game design I mean) they never get done.

Thus the IOTDs on flipcode which are "I finished my first game, it's a
bomberman/tetris/quake clone" impress me way more than "I implemented an
engine with the following list of buzzwords". Ofcourse each case is
differant.

So when asked how to get into the industry, I tell them to design(see:)) a
simple game and make it, from start to end, make sure it's finished, that
will impress your potential employers more :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jamie Fowlston [mailto:ja...@qu...]
> Sent: 02 July 2003 13:47
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
> 
> 
> True. I tend to think the main problem with hobby projects is 
> that you set
> out to write an engine with no idea of what you want it to 
> actually _do_,
> and so it all becomes a fairly meaningless exercise in what 
> flavour of code
> you fancy that month....
> 
> Yeah, i thought it was about game design too :)
> 
> J
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li...
> [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
> Gareth Lewin
> Sent: 02 July 2003 12:17
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
> 
> 
> Yes, but your requirements are differant to the standard. The 
> original email
> talked about linux/windows and not about consoles.
> 
> Also, I made the (maybe incorrect) assumption that he is a 
> hobbyist, and
> spending time R&Ding an OGL and DX renderer is (in my 
> opinion) silly and a
> waste of time. The reality is that a lot of hobbyists spend a 
> lot of type
> working on cross platform stuff when in reality their work 
> will only ever be
> run on a single platform, instead of utilising that same time 
> in a more
> constructive (in my subjective opinion) way.
> 
> As you well know, the real differant between 
> ps/2,xbox/dx/ogl/cube etc is
> the high and the low ends (the syntax is differant, and low level
> optimizations are differant) but the basics are the same, and 
> stuff you
> learn with just a single platform are applicable everywhere.
> ________________________
> Regards, Gareth Lewin
> Programmer, Sudeki
> http://www.xbox.com/Sudeki
> 
> P.S. Isn't this list about game design, not software design ? :)
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jamie Fowlston [mailto:ja...@qu...]
> > Sent: 02 July 2003 12:08
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
> >
> >
> > Hmm, we support multiple platforms, and haven't found OGL solves our
> > problems on PS2 & Xbox :)
> >
> > Doing both on Windows is a good exercise for your
> > architecture, to test you
> > can really have different drivers.
> >
> > Jamie
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gam...@li...
> > [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
> > Gareth Lewin
> > Sent: 02 July 2003 10:12
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
> >
> >
> > Sorry to ask a stupid question, but why implement both an 
> OGL and a DX
> > renderer ? Either your product is windows only, in which case
> > DirectX or
> > OpenGL are good, or you want to support multiple platforms,
> > and in that case
> > OGL solves all your problems.
> >
> > Spending time on keeping two distint rendering engines up to
> > date is a waste
> > of time, and now days there is no clear advantage to that
> > that I can see.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Dirk Gregorius [mailto:di...@di...]
> > > Sent: 01 July 2003 10:19
> > > To: gam...@li...
> > > Subject: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I am wondering how you implement your render interfaces? On
> > > what abstraction
> > > level is a renderer normally implemented - what are the
> > > typical functions
> > > and classes? Do you pass a renderer reference to all
> > > renderable entities?
> > > And how is platform independence achieved - do you use
> > > polymorphism or for
> > > example the "Bridge" pattern - that by its definition
> > > seperates abstraction
> > > and implementation? Maybe you can give me some tips.
> > >
> > > One thing that I really don't understand is how to implement the
> > > initialisation such that it works platform independent? E.g:
> > > Let's say we
> > > have a base class IRenderer which is implemented by two
> > derived class
> > > COGLRendererImpl and CDXRendererImpl. Both derived classes
> > implement a
> > > virtual function IRenderer::Init(...). The arguments vary
> > > with the OS. On a
> > > Windows platform you have to pass the HWND for the window, on
> > > a Linux system
> > > that could be totally different. What is the best to handle this?
> > >
> > > Hopefully I could make myself clear.  Every help is appreciated!!
> > >
> > > Best regards
> > >
> > >
> > > Dirk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET
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> > 1203_01/01
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-design
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> >
> >
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> 
> 
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RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

True. I tend to think the main problem with hobby projects is that you set
out to write an engine with no idea of what you want it to actually _do_,
and so it all becomes a fairly meaningless exercise in what flavour of code
you fancy that month....

Yeah, i thought it was about game design too :)

J


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Gareth Lewin
Sent: 02 July 2003 12:17
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer


Yes, but your requirements are differant to the standard. The original email
talked about linux/windows and not about consoles.

Also, I made the (maybe incorrect) assumption that he is a hobbyist, and
spending time R&Ding an OGL and DX renderer is (in my opinion) silly and a
waste of time. The reality is that a lot of hobbyists spend a lot of type
working on cross platform stuff when in reality their work will only ever be
run on a single platform, instead of utilising that same time in a more
constructive (in my subjective opinion) way.

As you well know, the real differant between ps/2,xbox/dx/ogl/cube etc is
the high and the low ends (the syntax is differant, and low level
optimizations are differant) but the basics are the same, and stuff you
learn with just a single platform are applicable everywhere.
________________________
Regards, Gareth Lewin
Programmer, Sudeki
http://www.xbox.com/Sudeki

P.S. Isn't this list about game design, not software design ? :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jamie Fowlston [mailto:ja...@qu...]
> Sent: 02 July 2003 12:08
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
>
>
> Hmm, we support multiple platforms, and haven't found OGL solves our
> problems on PS2 & Xbox :)
>
> Doing both on Windows is a good exercise for your
> architecture, to test you
> can really have different drivers.
>
> Jamie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li...
> [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
> Gareth Lewin
> Sent: 02 July 2003 10:12
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
>
>
> Sorry to ask a stupid question, but why implement both an OGL and a DX
> renderer ? Either your product is windows only, in which case
> DirectX or
> OpenGL are good, or you want to support multiple platforms,
> and in that case
> OGL solves all your problems.
>
> Spending time on keeping two distint rendering engines up to
> date is a waste
> of time, and now days there is no clear advantage to that
> that I can see.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dirk Gregorius [mailto:di...@di...]
> > Sent: 01 July 2003 10:19
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am wondering how you implement your render interfaces? On
> > what abstraction
> > level is a renderer normally implemented - what are the
> > typical functions
> > and classes? Do you pass a renderer reference to all
> > renderable entities?
> > And how is platform independence achieved - do you use
> > polymorphism or for
> > example the "Bridge" pattern - that by its definition
> > seperates abstraction
> > and implementation? Maybe you can give me some tips.
> >
> > One thing that I really don't understand is how to implement the
> > initialisation such that it works platform independent? E.g:
> > Let's say we
> > have a base class IRenderer which is implemented by two
> derived class
> > COGLRendererImpl and CDXRendererImpl. Both derived classes
> implement a
> > virtual function IRenderer::Init(...). The arguments vary
> > with the OS. On a
> > Windows platform you have to pass the HWND for the window, on
> > a Linux system
> > that could be totally different. What is the best to handle this?
> >
> > Hopefully I could make myself clear.  Every help is appreciated!!
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> >
> > Dirk
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET
> sites including
> > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now.
> > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET.
> > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100006ave/direct;at.asp_06
> 1203_01/01
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-design mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-design
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=556
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
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RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

Yes, but your requirements are differant to the standard. The original email
talked about linux/windows and not about consoles.

Also, I made the (maybe incorrect) assumption that he is a hobbyist, and
spending time R&Ding an OGL and DX renderer is (in my opinion) silly and a
waste of time. The reality is that a lot of hobbyists spend a lot of type
working on cross platform stuff when in reality their work will only ever be
run on a single platform, instead of utilising that same time in a more
constructive (in my subjective opinion) way.

As you well know, the real differant between ps/2,xbox/dx/ogl/cube etc is
the high and the low ends (the syntax is differant, and low level
optimizations are differant) but the basics are the same, and stuff you
learn with just a single platform are applicable everywhere.
________________________
Regards, Gareth Lewin
Programmer, Sudeki
http://www.xbox.com/Sudeki

P.S. Isn't this list about game design, not software design ? :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jamie Fowlston [mailto:ja...@qu...]
> Sent: 02 July 2003 12:08
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
> 
> 
> Hmm, we support multiple platforms, and haven't found OGL solves our
> problems on PS2 & Xbox :)
> 
> Doing both on Windows is a good exercise for your 
> architecture, to test you
> can really have different drivers.
> 
> Jamie
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li...
> [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
> Gareth Lewin
> Sent: 02 July 2003 10:12
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
> 
> 
> Sorry to ask a stupid question, but why implement both an OGL and a DX
> renderer ? Either your product is windows only, in which case 
> DirectX or
> OpenGL are good, or you want to support multiple platforms, 
> and in that case
> OGL solves all your problems.
> 
> Spending time on keeping two distint rendering engines up to 
> date is a waste
> of time, and now days there is no clear advantage to that 
> that I can see.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dirk Gregorius [mailto:di...@di...]
> > Sent: 01 July 2003 10:19
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am wondering how you implement your render interfaces? On
> > what abstraction
> > level is a renderer normally implemented - what are the
> > typical functions
> > and classes? Do you pass a renderer reference to all
> > renderable entities?
> > And how is platform independence achieved - do you use
> > polymorphism or for
> > example the "Bridge" pattern - that by its definition
> > seperates abstraction
> > and implementation? Maybe you can give me some tips.
> >
> > One thing that I really don't understand is how to implement the
> > initialisation such that it works platform independent? E.g:
> > Let's say we
> > have a base class IRenderer which is implemented by two 
> derived class
> > COGLRendererImpl and CDXRendererImpl. Both derived classes 
> implement a
> > virtual function IRenderer::Init(...). The arguments vary
> > with the OS. On a
> > Windows platform you have to pass the HWND for the window, on
> > a Linux system
> > that could be totally different. What is the best to handle this?
> >
> > Hopefully I could make myself clear.  Every help is appreciated!!
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> >
> > Dirk
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET 
> sites including
> > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now.
> > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET.
> > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100006ave/direct;at.asp_06
> 1203_01/01
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-design mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-design
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=556
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

Hmm, we support multiple platforms, and haven't found OGL solves our
problems on PS2 & Xbox :)

Doing both on Windows is a good exercise for your architecture, to test you
can really have different drivers.

Jamie


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Gareth Lewin
Sent: 02 July 2003 10:12
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer


Sorry to ask a stupid question, but why implement both an OGL and a DX
renderer ? Either your product is windows only, in which case DirectX or
OpenGL are good, or you want to support multiple platforms, and in that case
OGL solves all your problems.

Spending time on keeping two distint rendering engines up to date is a waste
of time, and now days there is no clear advantage to that that I can see.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dirk Gregorius [mailto:di...@di...]
> Sent: 01 July 2003 10:19
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I am wondering how you implement your render interfaces? On
> what abstraction
> level is a renderer normally implemented - what are the
> typical functions
> and classes? Do you pass a renderer reference to all
> renderable entities?
> And how is platform independence achieved - do you use
> polymorphism or for
> example the "Bridge" pattern - that by its definition
> seperates abstraction
> and implementation? Maybe you can give me some tips.
>
> One thing that I really don't understand is how to implement the
> initialisation such that it works platform independent? E.g:
> Let's say we
> have a base class IRenderer which is implemented by two derived class
> COGLRendererImpl and CDXRendererImpl. Both derived classes implement a
> virtual function IRenderer::Init(...). The arguments vary
> with the OS. On a
> Windows platform you have to pass the HWND for the window, on
> a Linux system
> that could be totally different. What is the best to handle this?
>
> Hopefully I could make myself clear.  Every help is appreciated!!
>
> Best regards
>
>
> Dirk
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including
> Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now.
> Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET.
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1203_01/01
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Re: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[<di...@di...>]

Thanx for answers.  Maybe you can give me also some suggestions for the
first part of my questions. 

Also thanx for the book tip. Are there any other books on software
design that you can recommend? Especially concerning games :-)

Best regards

Dirk

RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

Sorry to ask a stupid question, but why implement both an OGL and a DX
renderer ? Either your product is windows only, in which case DirectX or
OpenGL are good, or you want to support multiple platforms, and in that case
OGL solves all your problems.

Spending time on keeping two distint rendering engines up to date is a waste
of time, and now days there is no clear advantage to that that I can see.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dirk Gregorius [mailto:di...@di...]
> Sent: 01 July 2003 10:19
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am wondering how you implement your render interfaces? On 
> what abstraction
> level is a renderer normally implemented - what are the 
> typical functions
> and classes? Do you pass a renderer reference to all 
> renderable entities?
> And how is platform independence achieved - do you use 
> polymorphism or for
> example the "Bridge" pattern - that by its definition 
> seperates abstraction
> and implementation? Maybe you can give me some tips.
> 
> One thing that I really don't understand is how to implement the
> initialisation such that it works platform independent? E.g: 
> Let's say we
> have a base class IRenderer which is implemented by two derived class
> COGLRendererImpl and CDXRendererImpl. Both derived classes implement a
> virtual function IRenderer::Init(...). The arguments vary 
> with the OS. On a
> Windows platform you have to pass the HWND for the window, on 
> a Linux system
> that could be totally different. What is the best to handle this?
> 
> Hopefully I could make myself clear.  Every help is appreciated!!
> 
> Best regards
> 
> 
> Dirk
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including
> Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now.
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RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[<Ja...@Co...>]

We don't pass in the HWND to our renderer but rather let it use Win32 API
calls to get the HWND.
We pass in the title string of the window from our main app to the renderer
init function.  This is ignored for those renderers that don't need it.
Another option is to pass in argc, argv like variables to the Init of the
renderer.

Jake

-----Original Message-----
From: Timur Davidenko [mailto:ti...@cr...]
Sent: 02 July 2003 08:35
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer


Actually HWND is a simple handle and can be passed just as a void*,
Sure you can make more general abstraction and create OS independed Window
class, but OSes can differ greatly and its hard to get it right at start.
If i would want to make stuff simple, some common initialzation structure
like
struct RendererInitParams
{
  void *hwnd;
  .. some other stuff. 
}
then DX renderer can be only on windows platform
so it is compiled with windows headers, simple cast void *hwnd into HWND
internally.
in OGL renderer you can used defines to see OS and use either windows code
and use void *hwnd, or if its Linux ignore this value.

Not a most generic solution in the world, but its fast to get running and
actually quite flexible, considering that you dont have 300 different OSes
arround.
and getting universal portable window class other all OSes and Consoles are
a task by itelf and you should consider do you really want to spent time on
this.

_________________________________
Timur Davidenko.
Crytek Studios (http://www.crytek.com)


-----Original Message-----
From: Dirk Gregorius [mailto:di...@di...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 11:19 AM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer


Hi,

I am wondering how you implement your render interfaces? On what abstraction
level is a renderer normally implemented - what are the typical functions
and classes? Do you pass a renderer reference to all renderable entities?
And how is platform independence achieved - do you use polymorphism or for
example the "Bridge" pattern - that by its definition seperates abstraction
and implementation? Maybe you can give me some tips.

One thing that I really don't understand is how to implement the
initialisation such that it works platform independent? E.g: Let's say we
have a base class IRenderer which is implemented by two derived class
COGLRendererImpl and CDXRendererImpl. Both derived classes implement a
virtual function IRenderer::Init(...). The arguments vary with the OS. On a
Windows platform you have to pass the HWND for the window, on a Linux system
that could be totally different. What is the best to handle this?

Hopefully I could make myself clear.  Every help is appreciated!!

Best regards


Dirk



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RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[Timur D. <ti...@cr...>]

Actually HWND is a simple handle and can be passed just as a void*,
Sure you can make more general abstraction and create OS independed =
Window class, but OSes can differ greatly and its hard to get it right =
at start.
If i would want to make stuff simple, some common initialzation =
structure like
struct RendererInitParams
{
  void *hwnd;
  .. some other stuff.=20
}
then DX renderer can be only on windows platform
so it is compiled with windows headers, simple cast void *hwnd into HWND =
internally.
in OGL renderer you can used defines to see OS and use either windows =
code and use void *hwnd, or if its Linux ignore this value.

Not a most generic solution in the world, but its fast to get running =
and actually quite flexible, considering that you dont have 300 =
different OSes arround.
and getting universal portable window class other all OSes and Consoles =
are a task by itelf and you should consider do you really want to spent =
time on this.

_________________________________
Timur Davidenko.
Crytek Studios (http://www.crytek.com)


-----Original Message-----
From: Dirk Gregorius [mailto:di...@di...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 11:19 AM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer


Hi,

I am wondering how you implement your render interfaces? On what =
abstraction
level is a renderer normally implemented - what are the typical =
functions
and classes? Do you pass a renderer reference to all renderable =
entities?
And how is platform independence achieved - do you use polymorphism or =
for
example the "Bridge" pattern - that by its definition seperates =
abstraction
and implementation? Maybe you can give me some tips.

One thing that I really don't understand is how to implement the
initialisation such that it works platform independent? E.g: Let's say =
we
have a base class IRenderer which is implemented by two derived class
COGLRendererImpl and CDXRendererImpl. Both derived classes implement a
virtual function IRenderer::Init(...). The arguments vary with the OS. =
On a
Windows platform you have to pass the HWND for the window, on a Linux =
system
that could be totally different. What is the best to handle this?

Hopefully I could make myself clear.  Every help is appreciated!!

Best regards


Dirk



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RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[Garett B. <gt...@st...>]

<rant>

> The book does hit a bunch of my pet-peeves though.
> Such as the prefixing of all classes with ap*.
> Damnit, just throw everything into an ap namespace.
> That's what namespaces are for.

	Here here!  It always irks me to see a prefix used in place of proper
namespacing.  Maybe I'm taking it too far, but I have nested namespaces in
my project and it allows me to use clear, concise, one-word method names.
Nouns, verbs, adjectives... C++ is a language, use it like one.

> I know some compilers don't handle namespaces well,
> but there are easy work-arounds.

	Best work around: Use a better compiler.  If your compiler can't handle
namespaces properly, then maybe it isn't a C++ compiler after all.

</rant>

> So in conclusion, keep iterating and check out Applied C++...

	I will definitely look into it.  Thx for the recommendation.

Regards,
Garett Bass

Re: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[Parveen K. <pk...@al...>]

On Tue, 2003-07-01 at 14:50, Ivan Galic wrote:
> > > function IRenderer::Init(...). The arguments vary with
> > > the OS. On a Windows platform you have to pass the HWND
> > > for the window, on a Linux system that could be totally
> > > different.
>=20
> Yes, so that's why you have to abstract window creation, too. So you'd ha=
ve
> a class for creating a window, and two implementations - one for windows,
> and one for linux. Take a look at OGRE for a good engine design:
>=20
> ogre.sourceforge.net
>=20
> -Ivan


I'm not sure if I'd call OGRE a good engine design.  It does abstract
away a bunch of stuff fairly well.  I'm not sure how algorithms, such as
shadows and different shaders, fit into the whole mix.

My advice would be to:

for (;;)
{
  Design();
  Code();
  Refactor();
}

You're not going to get it right the 1st time.  And you probably won't
get it completely right the 8th time.  Just keep the iterations short
and keep cranking out code.

I'm reading Applied C++ at the moment.
http://www3.addall.com/New/compare.cgi?isbn=3D0321108949

It's a pretty decent read.  They go through designing and coding an
image manipulation program.  So a lot of the issues they cover, you will
run into when designing your renderer.

<rant>
The book does hit a bunch of my pet-peeves though.  Such as the
prefixing of all classes with ap*.  Damnit, just throw everything into
an ap namespace.  That's what namespaces are for.  I know some compilers
don't handle namespaces well, but there are easy work-arounds.
</rant>

My current side-project is designing an STL-like engine.  And using
traits classes to configure the renderer for different APIs and
windowing systems.  Similiar to how std::string is an instantiation of
basic_string<class charT, class traits, class Allocator>.  And have
algorithms for shadows, fog, and shading work like STL algorithms.

I'm not sure how this turned into me pimping the meandering design of my
own engine.  So in conclusion, keep iterating and check out Applied C++
but as per usual, read with a grain of salt.
--=20
Parveen Kaler <pk...@al...>

Re: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[Ivan G. <dea...@ga...>]

> > function IRenderer::Init(...). The arguments vary with
> > the OS. On a Windows platform you have to pass the HWND
> > for the window, on a Linux system that could be totally
> > different.

Yes, so that's why you have to abstract window creation, too. So you'd have
a class for creating a window, and two implementations - one for windows,
and one for linux. Take a look at OGRE for a good engine design:

ogre.sourceforge.net

-Ivan

RE: [GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[Garett B. <gt...@st...>]

Dirk wrote:

> E.g: Let's say we have a base class IRenderer which is
> implemented by two derived class COGLRendererImpl and
> CDXRendererImpl. Both derived classes implement a virtual
> function IRenderer::Init(...). The arguments vary with
> the OS. On a Windows platform you have to pass the HWND
> for the window, on a Linux system that could be totally
> different.

	I don't know how others handle this, but I have a windowing system
abstraction layer that hides all the platform specifics such as window
handles and such, and just lets me create, size, move windows.  One subclass
of the window class is a 3D context window, which can be sized and moved,
and can be initialized with a specific pixel format.  This should be Linux
friendly since the platform implementation details are hidden.

	I don't expose any private variables in the class header, instead I handle
all of the platform specifics within the .cpp files using maps to associate
data with the interface classes as needed.  In Win32 there is very little
that must be stored aside from the hwnd and hdc, just about everything else
can be queried from the Win32 API.

	I don't know enough about Direct3D to design for it, but OpenGL makes this
easy because my 3D context window can handle all wgl* specifics like
MakeCurrent and SwapBuffers, and otherwise I can just call OpenGL functions
anywhere in my code and the current context receives them automagically.

YMMV,
Garett Bass
gt...@st...

[GD-Design] Designing a renderer

[Dirk G. <di...@di...>]

Hi,

I am wondering how you implement your render interfaces? On what abstraction
level is a renderer normally implemented - what are the typical functions
and classes? Do you pass a renderer reference to all renderable entities?
And how is platform independence achieved - do you use polymorphism or for
example the "Bridge" pattern - that by its definition seperates abstraction
and implementation? Maybe you can give me some tips.

One thing that I really don't understand is how to implement the
initialisation such that it works platform independent? E.g: Let's say we
have a base class IRenderer which is implemented by two derived class
COGLRendererImpl and CDXRendererImpl. Both derived classes implement a
virtual function IRenderer::Init(...). The arguments vary with the OS. On a
Windows platform you have to pass the HWND for the window, on a Linux system
that could be totally different. What is the best to handle this?

Hopefully I could make myself clear.  Every help is appreciated!!

Best regards


Dirk

Serious Sam SDK (was:Re: [GD-Design] OT - Game Development Professionals Network)

[Nalin S. <ns...@vs...>]

-
Hi...
Is there anyone here whose tried usingthe Serious Sam SDK to program their
own opponent AIs ?
Would appreciate pointers to code/discussions on the same; especially with
regard to opponents that chase the player from the beginning to the end of
the level appearing intermittently to attack the player and decrease his
health.

Regards,
Nalin

PS: Ryze.com is not a site I own or have any association with; it's a
networking site where I am a member and where one can register oneself and
search for people, send them messages and network with them.
There is no gain construing to me from this except that I'd get to meet more
people and exchange/share views/ideas/experiences with them. Do Check it
out.
PPS: You too Jan... with your passion for checking things out and warning
the community in general against things you think they should avoid... maybe
you'll like it too... and maybe you'll be able to find more people in the
community you can connect with.

---- Original Message -----
From: "Jan Ekholm" <ch...@in...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Cc: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [GD-Design] OT - Game Development Professionals Network


> On Thu, 5 Jun 2003, Nalin Savara wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >This is Nalin Savara here.
> >
> >I"ve just created a network on Ryze.com (see: http://www.ryze.com ) which
is
> >a premier business network site that's called "GameDevPros" or the "Game
> >Development Professionals Network" to serve as an online meeting place
for
> >game development professionals of all backgrounds to network, meet and
> >discuss and exchange ideas and opportunities and support each other in
> >meeting challenges.
>
> Pointing my browser to http://www.ryze.com/ I saw nothing that had
> anything to do with games, not even a single mention of the word "game".
> Seems to just be some kind of blog. Seems you also *must* register to get
> anything. Avoid.
>
> --
>    Crowley was in Hell's bad books. Not that Hell has any other kind.
>                            -- Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
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