freedos-devel — FreeDOS debugging questions and other developer topics

Re: [Freedos-devel] SQLite 3.46.1 compiled for DOS

[Jim H. <jh...@fr...>]

I'll add that this one got my attention because we include an older
version of SQLite in the FreeDOS distribution. The monthly test
release has version 3.5.6a:

https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/test/report.html

.. then scroll down and click on 'sqlite' ..

https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/unstable/pkg-html/sqlite.html



On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 12:03 PM Jim Hall <jh...@fr...> wrote:
[..]
> Ben Collver has compiled version 3.46.1 for DOS. Sounds like it is
> working well, at least according to Superllu, the developer behind
> DoJS.
>
> Here's the announcement:
>
>
> > Here's SQLite 3.46.1 compiled for DOS using DJGPP. Thanks to Superllu's
> > DoJS for clues about changes and compile-time options needed. The DJGPP
> > diff and Makefile are in the src/ directory.
> >
> > gopher://tilde.pink/1/~bencollver/files/dos386/database/sqlite/
> >
> > https://gopher.tildeverse.org/tilde.pink/1/~bencollver/files/dos386/database/sqlite/
> >

[Freedos-devel] SQLite 3.46.1 compiled for DOS

[Jim H. <jh...@fr...>]

I put out a call on my Fosstodon not long ago to encourage anyone who
might be working on open source DOS stuff to join our email list and
share the news on freedos-devel.

And someone pointed me to this item on DOS Ain't Dead:

> SQLite 3.46.1 compiled for DOS
https://www.bttr-software.de/forum/forum_entry.php?id=22112


Ben Collver has compiled version 3.46.1 for DOS. Sounds like it is
working well, at least according to Superllu, the developer behind
DoJS.

Here's the announcement:


> Here's SQLite 3.46.1 compiled for DOS using DJGPP. Thanks to Superllu's
> DoJS for clues about changes and compile-time options needed. The DJGPP
> diff and Makefile are in the src/ directory.
>
> gopher://tilde.pink/1/~bencollver/files/dos386/database/sqlite/
>
> https://gopher.tildeverse.org/tilde.pink/1/~bencollver/files/dos386/database/sqlite/
>

Re: [Freedos-devel] Package changes [was: 'Re: Get-together']

[<je...@sh...>]

> On Oct 23, 2024, at 1:18 PM, Jim Hall <jh...@fr...> wrote:
> 
> I think I represented the list discussions accurately in my video
> about T2410. [1] I realized later that I didn't name the 2 packages we
> were dropping-- but I guess that's what I get when I record a video
> very quickly.
> 
> The Utilities group is quite long so it would make sense to split it
> up. I'd recommend more human-readable names, because real people will
> need to find the packages and will use the group names to find their
> way. So rather than names like 'sysutil' and 'diskutil' and
> 'miscutil,' I recommend names like 'system' and 'disk' and 'util'
> (that is, keep the 'util' group name, and create new groups for system
> tools and disk tools.

I don’t think “system” is a good name for the “system related utilities”. It could easily be confused with BASE. 

There are two different names to consider. There is the package directory and the name displayed in FDIMPLES. This is similar to when a visitor is browsing the online repository in HTML format. 

For example, (apps) is “Applications”.

If we are moving most of the stuff in the current Utilities group to the BonusCD, we need to move a couple packages out of that group and into a group that will remain on the LiveCD. Those few utilities are critical to making the installed operating system function correctly. 

Since times change and who knows if they will be needed in future versions (like FreeDOS 2.0), I do not think they should be moved into BASE. They should probably be moved into their own group which could be named to indicate that they are very important. 

> 
> Let's keep talking about it on the list. We can iterate through things
> in-person, during the get-together, and bring the discussion back to
> the list to continue the conversation here.
> 
> [1] YouTube channel is here:
> https://www.youtube.com/@freedosproject
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 6:48 AM <je...@sh...> wrote:
> [..]
>> I did watch the video you made on the changes in T2410. Overall,
>> I think the thoughts you mentioned would be okay.
>> 
>> However, there will be a few minor complications involved. Namely some
>> of the Utilities required by BASE cannot be moved to the BonusCD. Those
>> will need placed in a new (as of yet undetermined) package group to be
>> kept on the LiveCD. Not hard to do. We just need to make some decisions.
>> 
>> It would be good to discuss such things during the get-together
>> before T2411.
>> 
>> Possibly for T2411 or more likely T2412, I think we should break-up
>> the Utilities group. Over the years, it has become a dumping ground for
>> anything that did not belong in one of the other groups. At present on
>> GitLab, the “Boot Tools” group has 3 packages and “Utilities”
>> has 75.
>> 
>> While both the Base and Development groups are over 50 packages,
>> their contents are all fairly well related. On the other hand, a lot
>> of the things in the Utilities group are not related to most of the
>> other packages. It may be good to break it up a little.
>> 
>> Possible drop “Utilities” (utils) in favor of 3 groups… (utilsys)
>> Utilities System, (utildisk) Utilities Disk and (utilmisc) Utilities
>> Other. That would keep them sorted alphabetically in FDIMPLES. However,
>> it would probably be fine as (sysutil) System Utilities, (diskutil)
>> Disk Utilities and (miscutil) Other Utilities / General Utilities.

Re: [Freedos-devel] Get-together

[Jim H. <jh...@fr...>]

"Before" sounds good to me too.

I know it's super short notice, but this weekend is the last weekend of the
month, so let's meet.

Our usual time to meet is on Sundays, so let's meet *Sunday at 11am until
noon, US/Central*. Use your favorite timezone converter for your local
time, but that's the same time we've always met.

We alternate between "technical" and "social" and this month is *technical*
.

*This isn't a replacement for discussion on the list, we always need to
bring items back to the list for follow-up. *



On Wed, Oct 23, 2024, 6:48 AM <je...@sh...> wrote:

>
>
> > On Oct 22, 2024, at 10:20 PM, Jim Hall <jh...@fr...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 22, 2024, 8:48 PM Jerome Shidel via Freedos-devel <
> fre...@li...> wrote:
> > Don’t recall if the next online get-together was discussed during the
> most recent video conference call.
> >
> > When is the next one?
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the reminder! No, we didn't set a date for the next one.
> >
> > When is a good time? I think it really comes down to: would it be better
> to meet before the next monthly test release, or after?
>
> I think before the next monthly build would be better.
>
> That way we can discuss: What or which additional packages should be
> moved.
>
> I did watch the video you made on the changes in T2410. Overall, I think
> the thoughts you mentioned would be okay.
>
> However, there will be a few minor complications involved. Namely some of
> the Utilities required by BASE cannot be moved to the BonusCD. Those will
> need placed in a new (as of yet undetermined) package group to be kept on
> the LiveCD. Not hard to do. We just need to make some decisions.
>
> It would be good to discuss such things during the get-together before
> T2411.
>
> Possibly for T2411 or more likely T2412, I think we should break-up the
> Utilities group. Over the years, it has become a dumping ground for
> anything that did not belong in one of the other groups. At present on
> GitLab, the “Boot Tools” group has 3 packages and “Utilities” has 75.
>
> While both the Base and Development groups are over 50 packages, their
> contents are all fairly well related. On the other hand, a lot of the
> things in the Utilities group are not related to most of the other
> packages. It may be good to break it up a little.
>
> Possible drop “Utilities” (utils) in favor of 3 groups… (utilsys)
> Utilities System, (utildisk) Utilities Disk and (utilmisc) Utilities Other.
> That would keep them sorted alphabetically in FDIMPLES. However, it would
> probably be fine as (sysutil) System Utilities, (diskutil) Disk Utilities
> and (miscutil) Other Utilities / General Utilities.
>
> :-)
>
>
>

Re: [Freedos-devel] Source code distribution

[Louis S. <lps...@gm...>]

On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 1:17 PM Wolf Bergenheim <wol...@be...>
wrote:

> Yeah one does not simply write a book like that, however, I think it could
> be a worthy effort and interesting. I don't think FreeDOS needs to be a
> from scratch distro, but I think there certainly would be space for a DOS
> from scratch distro :)
> You're just going to have to find the people who want to do it, or write
> it yourself. I would be interested in using it, for instance, as one of my
> projects I plan to install freeDOS/svarDOS on my HP Mini 210 which I have
> lying around... I'd like to try optimizing for as high of a CPU as possible
> and see how fast I could make DOS code 🤔
>

Let me be the one to burst your bubble.  FreeDOS and other DOSes in general
don’t really take a huge advantage of 386, 486 or later processors.  The
compilers and assemblers they rely on also don’t really optimize code for
later processors.  Things like FPU, MMX, super scalar instruction
scheduling, 32-bit registers or API calls and even basic clock frequency
management was largely out of reach for the compilers & assemblers.  There
was bigger concern for backwards compatibility.

>

Re: [Freedos-devel] Get-together

[Jim H. <jh...@fr...>]

On Tue, Oct 22, 2024, 8:48 PM Jerome Shidel via Freedos-devel <
fre...@li...> wrote:

> Don’t recall if the next online get-together was discussed during the most
> recent video conference call.
>
> When is the next one?
>


Thanks for the reminder! No, we didn't set a date for the next one.

When is a good time? I think it really comes down to: *would it be better
to meet before the next monthly test release, or after?*

>

[Freedos-devel] Get-together

[Jerome S. <je...@sh...>]

Don’t recall if the next online get-together was discussed during the most recent video conference call. 

When is the next one?

Re: [Freedos-devel] Source code distribution

[Wolf B. <wol...@be...>]

On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 7:50 AM Louis Santillan via Freedos-devel <
fre...@li...> wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 28, 2024 at 12:13 PM Michael Brutman via Freedos-devel <
> fre...@li...> wrote:
>
>> [SNIP]
>> You are responsible for making that source code available, not for
>> shipping it by default ...
>>
>> Like I've said, it's fine for FreeDOS to mirror/archive/host source code
>> for inactive projects.  But FreeDOS often takes years to update, so for
>> active projects it is actively shipping out of date source code.  A
>> referral to the current source with the mirror/archive as a backup makes
>> more sense.
>>
>> Then again, it's not a big issue - the number of people using the source
>> code for anything is very limited.  Which is why this conversation started
>> ...
>>
> [SNIP]
>
> I'm going to vocalize an opinion that will likely be unpopular because it
> requires great effort....
>
> While shipping source isn't required, there ought to be some concern that
> there isn't something like FreeDOS From Scratch (like
> https://www.linuxfromscratch.org/).   RBE does a good job of putting ISOs
> and floppy images together, it doesn't show you how to start from scratch
> however.
>

Yeah one does not simply write a book like that, however, I think it could
be a worthy effort and interesting. I don't think FreeDOS needs to be a
from scratch distro, but I think there certainly would be space for a DOS
from scratch distro :)
You're just going to have to find the people who want to do it, or write it
yourself. I would be interested in using it, for instance, as one of my
projects I plan to install freeDOS/svarDOS on my HP Mini 210 which I have
lying around... I'd like to try optimizing for as high of a CPU as possible
and see how fast I could make DOS code 🤔

--Wolf

-- 

  |\_
  | .\---.
 /   ,__/
/   /Wolf <wol...@be...>_




> _______________________________________________
> Freedos-devel mailing list
> Fre...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
>

Re: [Freedos-devel] share

[Wilhelm S. <wil...@ma...>]

<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>Dear Mrs. Masloch,</div>

<div>I want to apologize that this mail came into the mailing list. Sorry for that.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>But as it is here now, can anybody tell me if the command &quot;share&quot; will be updated and added</div>

<div>in FDT24xx in the near future?</div>

<div>Reason for this question: It may be that I will have to change / update the help file for this command.</div>

<div>And: I found no FD documentation about this command, only at other DOSes.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>Regards</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>Willi</div>

<div>&nbsp;
<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>&nbsp;
<div>&nbsp;
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px; padding: 10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Sent:</b>&nbsp;Tuesday, October 22, 2024 at 4:31 PM<br/>
<b>From:</b>&nbsp;&quot;E. C. Masloch via Freedos-devel&quot; &lt;fre...@li...&gt;<br/>
<b>To:</b>&nbsp;fre...@li...<br/>
<b>Cc:</b>&nbsp;&quot;E. C. Masloch&quot; &lt;pu...@ul...&gt;<br/>
<b>Subject:</b>&nbsp;Re: [Freedos-devel] share</div>

<div name="quoted-content">(I got a separate mail privately that this accidentally went to the<br/>
list, explaining why it is in german as well. I decided I&#39;ll answer it<br/>
to the list for the benefit of others however.)<br/>
<br/>
On at 2024-10-22 14:19 +0200, Wilhelm Spiegl via Freedos-devel wrote:<br/>
&gt; Sehr geehrte Frau Masloch,<br/>
&gt; ich wollte mich nur mal erkundigen, was eigentlich aus dem Update von<br/>
&gt; &quot;share&quot; geworden ist, das u.a. NLS unterst&uuml;tzen sollte.<br/>
&gt; Das Einzige, was ich gefunden habe, war:<br/>
&gt; <a href="https://gitlab.com/FreeDOS/base/share/-/releases" target="_blank">https://gitlab.com/FreeDOS/base/share/-/releases</a> - aber das stammt aus<br/>
&gt; dem Jahr 2006.<br/>
<br/>
The share repo that I have been contributing to is at the FDOS github<br/>
[1]. I added TSR-related changes (when built with ia16 gcc) to improve<br/>
the TSR loading, add an AMIS multiplexer, and introduce a completely new<br/>
TSR uninstall feature. The uninstallation works better with a new kernel<br/>
as otherwise the uninstaller has to patch the kernel&#39;s &quot;share_installed&quot;<br/>
variable by itself. It seems that this does contain NLS features as<br/>
well, but I did not work on those.<br/>
<br/>
Regards,<br/>
ecm<br/>
<br/>
[1]: <a href="https://github.com/FDOS/share" target="_blank">https://github.com/FDOS/share</a><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
_______________________________________________<br/>
Freedos-devel mailing list<br/>
Fre...@li...<br/>
<a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel" target="_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></body></html>

Re: [Freedos-devel] share

[E. C. M. <pu...@ul...>]

(I got a separate mail privately that this accidentally went to the 
list, explaining why it is in german as well. I decided I'll answer it 
to the list for the benefit of others however.)

On at 2024-10-22 14:19 +0200, Wilhelm Spiegl via Freedos-devel wrote:
> Sehr geehrte Frau Masloch,
> ich wollte mich nur mal erkundigen, was eigentlich aus dem Update von 
> "share" geworden ist, das u.a. NLS unterstützen sollte.
> Das Einzige, was ich gefunden habe, war: 
> https://gitlab.com/FreeDOS/base/share/-/releases - aber das stammt aus 
> dem Jahr 2006.

The share repo that I have been contributing to is at the FDOS github 
[1]. I added TSR-related changes (when built with ia16 gcc) to improve 
the TSR loading, add an AMIS multiplexer, and introduce a completely new 
TSR uninstall feature. The uninstallation works better with a new kernel 
as otherwise the uninstaller has to patch the kernel's "share_installed" 
variable by itself. It seems that this does contain NLS features as 
well, but I did not work on those.

Regards,
ecm

[1]: https://github.com/FDOS/share

[Freedos-devel] share

[Wilhelm S. <wil...@ma...>]

<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>Sehr geehrte Frau Masloch,</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>ich wollte mich nur mal erkundigen, was eigentlich aus dem Update von &quot;share&quot; geworden ist, das u.a. NLS unterst&uuml;tzen sollte.</div>

<div>Das Einzige, was ich gefunden habe, war: https://gitlab.com/FreeDOS/base/share/-/releases - aber das stammt aus dem Jahr 2006.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>Ihr</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>W. Spiegl</div></div></body></html>

Re: [Freedos-devel] Source code distribution

[Louis S. <lps...@gm...>]

On Sat, Sep 28, 2024 at 12:13 PM Michael Brutman via Freedos-devel <
fre...@li...> wrote:

> [SNIP]
> You are responsible for making that source code available, not for
> shipping it by default ...
>
> Like I've said, it's fine for FreeDOS to mirror/archive/host source code
> for inactive projects.  But FreeDOS often takes years to update, so for
> active projects it is actively shipping out of date source code.  A
> referral to the current source with the mirror/archive as a backup makes
> more sense.
>
> Then again, it's not a big issue - the number of people using the source
> code for anything is very limited.  Which is why this conversation started
> ...
>
[SNIP]

I'm going to vocalize an opinion that will likely be unpopular because it
requires great effort....

While shipping source isn't required, there ought to be some concern that
there isn't something like FreeDOS From Scratch (like
https://www.linuxfromscratch.org/).   RBE does a good job of putting ISOs
and floppy images together, it doesn't show you how to start from scratch
however.

Re: [Freedos-devel] Hi!

[Ronald H. <hud...@li...>]

On 10/18/24 15:27, Ronald Hudson wrote:
>
> On 10/18/24 14:23, Mark Aitchison via Freedos-devel wrote:
>> I'm interested in a useful scientific calculator emulator, and always 
>> liked those HP calculators you mentioned (and especially have fond 
>> memories for the HP-45, for which several emulators exist at the 
>> moment, e.g. https://sarahkmarr.com/retrohp1973.html, but not any for 
>> any DOS AFAIK).
>
> HP1973 is interesting, my favorite play calculation is sin(1/55555) in 
> degrees mode - that answer has a familiar ring to it.  HP1973 drops 
> the ball at the reciprocal, but the stack display (not the 'LED' 
> display) still shows the correct answer. Calcula is for CLI, and is 
> written in FreePascal.
>
> Did I say that calcula displays all it's storage while you work? All 
> 26 stack registers, All the A-Z storage registers and the statistical 
> registers, even the LastX register is on screen.
>
>
>>
>> Three features from other calculators, though, might be worth 
>> including that make it more suited to use on computers...
>>
>>  1. The HP10C etc has a "landscape" format that makes it more suited
>>     to PC screens; although I often prefer the usual "portrait"
>>     arrangement, may this could be a user-settable option? (the
>>     arrangement of keys and so on on the screen probably isn't
>>     difficult to adjust compared with the workings on the underlying
>>     calculator features?)
>>  2. I liked one thing about the Sinclair Scientific (as one example),
>>     whereby two different shift keys gave keys 3 different functions.
>>     This can match keyboards with "Shift", "Control" and "Alt" or
>>     whatever keys. I like to avoid mouse use because of RSI risks, so
>>     if it can use those keys it would be good... ideally: as soon as
>>     you press down a shift key it should change or highlight the
>>     appropriate caption/legend associated with the keys. For example:
>>     "alt" might change "cos" to "arccos".
>>  3. The ability to make it programmable is tempting, but as a "maybe
>>     add later" thought to avoid weighing down the project so it cannot
>>     get off the ground. At this stage perhaps: reserve the PC keyboard
>>     function keys for later use for this?
>>
> #3  I am actually thinking of a programmable calculator interpreter 
> where, like assembly language, lines can have labels and variables can 
> have names. You'd use your favorite editor to build source then 
> interpret it.
>>
>> 1.
>>
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> How far along are you with CALCULA?

>> All original design goals have been met, I may add other functions 
>> before it's out. I have to work on documentation now. What is 
>> FreeDOS's favorite documentation format?

>> Mark Aitchison,
>> Christchurch New Zealand.
>>
>> On 19/10/24 06:39, Ronald Hudson via Freedos-devel wrote:
>>> Hi Everyone -
>>>
>>> I am working on a version of CALCULA, an RPN calculator for DOS. It 
>>> is roughly equivalent in power to an HP35 or HP25 or HP11 - It is 
>>> not programmable. Unlike HP my calculator has a 26 level stack, and 
>>> 26 storage registers. It has continuous memory (via saving a status 
>>> file on exit and loading it again on launch)
>>>
>>> Is there any interest?
>>>
>>>
>>> Ron Hudson
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Freedos-devel mailing list
>> Fre...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel

Re: [Freedos-devel] Hi!

[Mark A. <Mar...@ch...>]

I'm interested in a useful scientific calculator emulator, and always liked those HP 
calculators you mentioned (and especially have fond memories for the HP-45, for which 
several emulators exist at the moment, e.g. https://sarahkmarr.com/retrohp1973.html, but 
not any for any DOS AFAIK).

Three features from other calculators, though, might be worth including that make it more 
suited to use on computers...

 1. The HP10C etc has a "landscape" format that makes it more suited to PC screens;
    although I often prefer the usual "portrait" arrangement, may this could be a
    user-settable option? (the arrangement of keys and so on on the screen probably isn't
    difficult to adjust compared with the workings on the underlying calculator features?)
 2. I liked one thing about the Sinclair Scientific (as one example), whereby two
    different shift keys gave keys 3 different functions. This can match keyboards with
    "Shift", "Control" and "Alt" or whatever keys. I like to avoid mouse use because of
    RSI risks, so if it can use those keys it would be good... ideally: as soon as you
    press down a shift key it should change or highlight the appropriate caption/legend
    associated with the keys. For example: "alt" might change "cos" to "arccos".
 3. The ability to make it programmable is tempting, but as a "maybe add later" thought
    to avoid weighing down the project so it cannot get off the ground. At this stage
    perhaps: reserve the PC keyboard function keys for later use for this?

What do you think?

How far along are you with CALCULA?

Mark Aitchison,
Christchurch New Zealand.

On 19/10/24 06:39, Ronald Hudson via Freedos-devel wrote:
> Hi Everyone -
>
> I am working on a version of CALCULA, an RPN calculator for DOS. It is roughly 
> equivalent in power to an HP35 or HP25 or HP11 - It is not programmable. Unlike HP my 
> calculator has a 26 level stack, and 26 storage registers. It has continuous memory 
> (via saving a status file on exit and loading it again on launch)
>
> Is there any interest?
>
>
> Ron Hudson

[Freedos-devel] Hi!

[Ronald H. <hud...@li...>]

Hi Everyone -

I am working on a version of CALCULA, an RPN calculator for DOS. It is 
roughly equivalent in power to an HP35 or HP25 or HP11 - It is not 
programmable. Unlike HP my calculator has a 26 level stack, and 26 
storage registers. It has continuous memory (via saving a status file on 
exit and loading it again on launch)

Is there any interest?


Ron Hudson

Re: [Freedos-devel] Accessibility question.

[Mike C. <kb...@ao...>]

Thanks for your help Willi. This just might work. I'll give it a try.

On 10/15/2024 3:41 PM, Wilhelm Spiegl via Freedos-devel wrote:
> Hi,
> I just noticed that
> www.svardos.org <http://www.svardos.org>
>  published something that may interest you:
> https://emubns.sourceforge.net/
> A svardos dos cd, maybe you remember drdos or novell dos. I did not 
> test it, but I know two blind people  and learned that blind people 
> can find it out. it is on the actual svardos site for download. could 
> be english.
>
> I also know a german blind programmer that writes programms for blind 
> people in windows, Wolfram Flossdorf.
> https://www.softcologne.de/winprogs/index.htm.
> He has several tools for blind people on his site, but all in german, 
> but I am sure you know a translation tool.
>
> His programms work fine but are in german only, and he has no wish to 
> translate them. For not blind people they look a little bit strange as 
> he has the problem not to see the position of the program windows and 
> the buttons, so they are sometimes arranged a little strange, but 
> anyhow it works. So do not listen to seeing people, that say what a 
> bullshit this is. A lot of things are inside, a scanner that reads you 
> the text of documents, a mail program, a writing program, a substitute 
> for explorer, you can listen to webradios, music cds etc. etc. he has 
> a test version, the price for full version should be below 100 Euro.
>
> for linux there is a boot cd called adriane, created from Mr. Knopper, 
> the inventor of Knoppix, a Linux boot Cd, made for his blind wife, a 
> little outdated, but I think it could work in english.
> start here:
> https://www.knopper.net/knoppix/knoppix741.html
>
> If you have any question, inform me.
>
> Willi
>
> --
> Gesendet mit der mail.com <http://mail.com> Mail App
>
>
> Am 15.10.24, 20:01 schrieb Ralf Quint via Freedos-devel 
> <fre...@li...>:
>
>     On 10/14/2024 9:11 AM, Mike Coulombe via Freedos-devel wrote:
>     >    Hi. I'm visually impaired and would like to use free dos. Are
>     there
>     > any developers willing to look in to creating a talking boot disk?
>     > Free dos would be very useful to blind people world wide if it had
>     > speech accessibility. I would think the free e-speak synthesizer
>     could
>     > be ported to dos and made to work with one of the free dos screen
>     > readers out there. I'm not a developer, but would be willing to
>     work
>     > with someone on this and do beta testing. I still have my dos
>     screen
>     > readers. If software speech could be added to free dos there are at
>     > least two dos screen readers I know of that have been released as
>     > freeware. What would be ideal is a distro we could put on a flash
>     > drive that would detect sound cards and come up talking like the
>     Slint
>     > Linux distro does. If any developers are willing to look into
>     this it
>     > would be greatly appreciated and useful to people world wide.
>     Honestly, this is probably outside of the possibility for FreeDOS.
>     DOS
>     in general does not have a concept of drivers, and by itself, doesn't
>     use any sound, beside a rudimentary "beep".
>     To make this possible, this would require an almost impossible
>     task of
>     detecting sound cards/chips, installing/load appropriate drivers,
>     installing a "speaking" application, all before DOS could actually do
>     what it is supposed to do.
>
>     As bad as I might feel for you and your impairment, I simply don't
>     think
>     that is something feasible..
>
>
>     Ralf
>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Freedos-devel mailing list
>     Fre...@li... <http://lists.sourceforge.net>
>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Freedos-devel mailing list
> Fre...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel

Re: [Freedos-devel] Re: Accessibility question.

[Wilhelm S. <wil...@ma...>]

<html><body>Hi,<br>I just noticed that <br><a href="http://www.svardos.org">www.svardos.org</a><br>&nbsp;published something that may interest you:&nbsp;<br><a href="https://emubns.sourceforge.net/">https://emubns.sourceforge.net/</a><br>A svardos dos cd, maybe you remember drdos or novell dos. I&nbsp;did not test it, but I know two blind people&nbsp; and learned that blind people can find it out. it is on the actual svardos site for download. could be english.<br><br>I also know a german blind programmer that writes programms for blind people in windows, Wolfram Flossdorf.<br><a href="https://www.softcologne.de/winprogs/index.htm">https://www.softcologne.de/winprogs/index.htm</a>. <br>He has several tools for blind people on his site, but all in german, but I am sure you know a translation tool.<br><br>His programms work fine but are in german only, and he has no wish to translate them. For not blind people they look a little bit strange as he has the problem not to see the position of the program windows and the buttons, so they are sometimes arranged a little strange, but anyhow it works. So do not listen to seeing people, that say what a bullshit this is. A lot of things are inside, a scanner that reads you the text of documents, a mail program, a writing program, a substitute for explorer, you can listen to webradios, music cds etc. etc. he has a test version, the price for full version should be below 100 Euro.<br><br>for linux there is a boot cd called adriane, created from Mr. Knopper, the inventor of Knoppix, a Linux boot Cd, made for his blind wife, a little outdated, but I think it could work in english.<br>start here:&nbsp;<br><a href="https://www.knopper.net/knoppix/knoppix741.html">https://www.knopper.net/knoppix/knoppix741.html</a><br><br>If you have any question, inform me.<br><br>Willi<br><br><div class="signature">--<br>Gesendet mit der <a href="http://mail.com">mail.com</a> Mail App</div><div class="mail_android_quote" style="line-height: 1"><br><meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/vnd.ui.insecure+html;charset=utf-8"><div class="mail_android_quote" style="line-height: 1"><br>Am 15.10.24, 20:01 schrieb Ralf Quint via Freedos-devel &lt;fre...@li...&gt;:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.8ex 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
On 10/14/2024 9:11 AM, Mike Coulombe via Freedos-devel wrote:<br>
&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hi. I'm visually impaired and would like to use free dos. Are there <br>
&gt; any developers willing to look in to creating a talking boot disk? <br>
&gt; Free dos would be very useful to blind people world wide if it had <br>
&gt; speech accessibility. I would think the free e-speak synthesizer could <br>
&gt; be ported to dos and made to work with one of the free dos screen <br>
&gt; readers out there. I'm not a developer, but would be willing to work <br>
&gt; with someone on this and do beta testing. I still have my dos screen <br>
&gt; readers. If software speech could be added to free dos there are at <br>
&gt; least two dos screen readers I know of that have been released as <br>
&gt; freeware. What would be ideal is a distro we could put on a flash <br>
&gt; drive that would detect sound cards and come up talking like the Slint <br>
&gt; Linux distro does. If any developers are willing to look into this it <br>
&gt; would be greatly appreciated and useful to people world wide. <br>
Honestly, this is probably outside of the possibility for FreeDOS. DOS <br>
in general does not have a concept of drivers, and by itself, doesn&#39;t <br>
use any sound, beside a rudimentary &quot;beep&quot;.<br>
To make this possible, this would require an almost impossible task of <br>
detecting sound cards/chips, installing/load appropriate drivers, <br>
installing a &quot;speaking&quot; application, all before DOS could actually do <br>
what it is supposed to do.<br>
<br>
As bad as I might feel for you and your impairment, I simply don&#39;t think <br>
that is something feasible..<br>
<br>
<br>
Ralf<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Freedos-devel mailing list<br>
Freedos-devel@<a href="http://lists.sourceforge.net">lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></body></html>

Re: [Freedos-devel] Accessibility question.

[Ralf Q. <fre...@gm...>]

On 10/14/2024 9:11 AM, Mike Coulombe via Freedos-devel wrote:
>    Hi. I'm visually impaired and would like to use free dos. Are there 
> any developers willing to look in to creating a talking boot disk? 
> Free dos would be very useful to blind people world wide if it had 
> speech accessibility. I would think the free e-speak synthesizer could 
> be ported to dos and made to work with one of the free dos screen 
> readers out there. I'm not a developer, but would be willing to work 
> with someone on this and do beta testing. I still have my dos screen 
> readers. If software speech could be added to free dos there are at 
> least two dos screen readers I know of that have been released as 
> freeware. What would be ideal is a distro we could put on a flash 
> drive that would detect sound cards and come up talking like the Slint 
> Linux distro does. If any developers are willing to look into this it 
> would be greatly appreciated and useful to people world wide. 
Honestly, this is probably outside of the possibility for FreeDOS. DOS 
in general does not have a concept of drivers, and by itself, doesn't 
use any sound, beside a rudimentary "beep".
To make this possible, this would require an almost impossible task of 
detecting sound cards/chips, installing/load appropriate drivers, 
installing a "speaking" application, all before DOS could actually do 
what it is supposed to do.

As bad as I might feel for you and your impairment, I simply don't think 
that is something feasible..


Ralf

Re: [Freedos-devel] Re: Wayback

[Wilhelm S. <wil...@ma...>]

<html><body>Just a more important question: How good is FD an related programs secured?<br>Are there offline backups?<br><br>Willi<br><br><div class="signature">--<br>Gesendet mit der <a href="http://mail.com">mail.com</a> Mail App</div><div class="mail_android_quote" style="line-height: 1"><br><meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/vnd.ui.insecure+html;charset=utf-8"><div class="mail_android_quote" style="line-height: 1"><br>Am 14.10.24, 23:05 schrieb Chelson a via Freedos-devel &lt;fre...@li...&gt;:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.8ex 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
&lt;div dir="auto">Terrible thing to say. Who will play dos games and on retro machines if you&#39;re not around?<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Hacks are a part of the computing world and always will be.&nbsp;</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, 7:03 am Danilo Pecher via Freedos-devel, &lt;<a href="mailto:fre...@li...">fre...@li...</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I just don&#39;t get it. What are those wastes of skin and organs who get<br>
a kick out of making other people&#39;s lives miserable, The wayback<br>
machine is a brilliant idea, archiving web pages that their authors<br>
have long since given up upon. How sad must your life be if it gives<br>
you a kick to just fuck up other people? I don&#39;t want to live on this<br>
planet anymore.<br>
&lt;br>
On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 at 19:46, Mercury Thirteen via Freedos-devel<br>
&lt;<a href="mailto:fre...@li...">fre...@li...</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; They may be back up and running for now, but I can't help but wonder for how long due to their pending legal troubles.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It's a shame that the DOS abandonware they host will be lost to time if they get shut down, which seems like less of an "if" and more of a "when" question.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent with Proton Mail secure email.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Monday, October 14th, 2024 at 11:49 AM, Jerome Shidel via Freedos-devel &lt;<a href="mailto:fre...@li...">fre...@li...</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; On Oct 14, 2024, at 10:34 AM, Rugxulo via Freedos-devel <a href="mailto:fre...@li...">fre...@li...</a&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 7:16 AM Jerome Shidel via Freedos-devel<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href="mailto:fre...@li...">fre...@li...</a&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Since this happened Thursday and is still ongoing, I guess it is old news.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; But, I only found out today when I needed to (hopefully) go find some on the Wayback Machine.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Apparently, the Internet Archive was hacked and gave up about 31 million user names and password.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sheesh! This is why we can't have nice things.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; It also has been undergoing a (D)DOS attack.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Seems like a strangely neutral site to attack.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Weird and annoying.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Their services are still offline.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; It's back up now, apparently (from a quick check).<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I just went to <a href="http://archive.org">archive.org</a>, says Wayback is up as “provisional and read-only”<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; So, they are getting there.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Freedos-devel mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href="mailto:Fre...@li...">Fre...@li...</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; Freedos-devel mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href="mailto:Fre...@li...">Fre...@li...</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Freedos-devel mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:Fre...@li...">Fre...@li...</a><br>
&gt; <a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel</a><br>
&lt;br>
&lt;br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Freedos-devel mailing list<br>
&lt;a href="mailto:Fre...@li...">Fre...@li...</a><br>
&lt;a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel</a><br>
&lt;/blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________
Freedos-devel mailing list
Freedos-devel@<a href="http://lists.sourceforge.net">lists.sourceforge.net</a>
<a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel</a>
&lt;/blockquote></div></div></body></html>

Re: [Freedos-devel] Wayback

[Chelson a <che...@gm...>]

Terrible thing to say. Who will play dos games and on retro machines if
you're not around?

Hacks are a part of the computing world and always will be.



On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, 7:03 am Danilo Pecher via Freedos-devel, <
fre...@li...> wrote:

> I just don't get it. What are those wastes of skin and organs who get
> a kick out of making other people's lives miserable, The wayback
> machine is a brilliant idea, archiving web pages that their authors
> have long since given up upon. How sad must your life be if it gives
> you a kick to just fuck up other people? I don't want to live on this
> planet anymore.
>
> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 at 19:46, Mercury Thirteen via Freedos-devel
> <fre...@li...> wrote:
> >
> > They may be back up and running for now, but I can't help but wonder for
> how long due to their pending legal troubles.
> >
> > It's a shame that the DOS abandonware they host will be lost to time if
> they get shut down, which seems like less of an "if" and more of a "when"
> question.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
> >
> > On Monday, October 14th, 2024 at 11:49 AM, Jerome Shidel via
> Freedos-devel <fre...@li...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > > On Oct 14, 2024, at 10:34 AM, Rugxulo via Freedos-devel
> fre...@li... wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 7:16 AM Jerome Shidel via Freedos-devel
> > > > > fre...@li... wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Since this happened Thursday and is still ongoing, I guess it is
> old news.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, I only found out today when I needed to (hopefully) go find
> some on the Wayback Machine.
> > > > >
> > > > > Apparently, the Internet Archive was hacked and gave up about 31
> million user names and password.
> > > >
> > > > Sheesh! This is why we can't have nice things.
> > > >
> > > > > It also has been undergoing a (D)DOS attack.
> > > >
> > > > Seems like a strangely neutral site to attack.
> > >
> > >
> > > Weird and annoying.
> > >
> > > > > Their services are still offline.
> > > >
> > > > It's back up now, apparently (from a quick check).
> > >
> > >
> > > I just went to archive.org, says Wayback is up as “provisional and
> read-only”
> > >
> > > So, they are getting there.
> > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Freedos-devel mailing list
> > > > Fre...@li...
> > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Freedos-devel mailing list
> > > Fre...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Freedos-devel mailing list
> > Fre...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Freedos-devel mailing list
> Fre...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
>

Re: [Freedos-devel] Wayback

[Danilo P. <dan...@da...>]

I just don't get it. What are those wastes of skin and organs who get
a kick out of making other people's lives miserable, The wayback
machine is a brilliant idea, archiving web pages that their authors
have long since given up upon. How sad must your life be if it gives
you a kick to just fuck up other people? I don't want to live on this
planet anymore.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 at 19:46, Mercury Thirteen via Freedos-devel
<fre...@li...> wrote:
>
> They may be back up and running for now, but I can't help but wonder for how long due to their pending legal troubles.
>
> It's a shame that the DOS abandonware they host will be lost to time if they get shut down, which seems like less of an "if" and more of a "when" question.
>
>
>
>
> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
>
> On Monday, October 14th, 2024 at 11:49 AM, Jerome Shidel via Freedos-devel <fre...@li...> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > > On Oct 14, 2024, at 10:34 AM, Rugxulo via Freedos-devel fre...@li... wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 7:16 AM Jerome Shidel via Freedos-devel
> > > > fre...@li... wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Since this happened Thursday and is still ongoing, I guess it is old news.
> > > >
> > > > But, I only found out today when I needed to (hopefully) go find some on the Wayback Machine.
> > > >
> > > > Apparently, the Internet Archive was hacked and gave up about 31 million user names and password.
> > >
> > > Sheesh! This is why we can't have nice things.
> > >
> > > > It also has been undergoing a (D)DOS attack.
> > >
> > > Seems like a strangely neutral site to attack.
> >
> >
> > Weird and annoying.
> >
> > > > Their services are still offline.
> > >
> > > It's back up now, apparently (from a quick check).
> >
> >
> > I just went to archive.org, says Wayback is up as “provisional and read-only”
> >
> > So, they are getting there.
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Freedos-devel mailing list
> > > Fre...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Freedos-devel mailing list
> > Fre...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Freedos-devel mailing list
> Fre...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel

Re: [Freedos-devel] Wayback

[Mercury T. <mer...@pr...>]

They may be back up and running for now, but I can't help but wonder for how long due to their pending legal troubles.

It's a shame that the DOS abandonware they host will be lost to time if they get shut down, which seems like less of an "if" and more of a "when" question.




Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

On Monday, October 14th, 2024 at 11:49 AM, Jerome Shidel via Freedos-devel <fre...@li...> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> > On Oct 14, 2024, at 10:34 AM, Rugxulo via Freedos-devel fre...@li... wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 7:16 AM Jerome Shidel via Freedos-devel
> > > fre...@li... wrote:
> > > 
> > > Since this happened Thursday and is still ongoing, I guess it is old news.
> > > 
> > > But, I only found out today when I needed to (hopefully) go find some on the Wayback Machine.
> > > 
> > > Apparently, the Internet Archive was hacked and gave up about 31 million user names and password.
> > 
> > Sheesh! This is why we can't have nice things.
> > 
> > > It also has been undergoing a (D)DOS attack.
> > 
> > Seems like a strangely neutral site to attack.
> 
> 
> Weird and annoying.
> 
> > > Their services are still offline.
> > 
> > It's back up now, apparently (from a quick check).
> 
> 
> I just went to archive.org, says Wayback is up as “provisional and read-only”
> 
> So, they are getting there.
> 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Freedos-devel mailing list
> > Fre...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Freedos-devel mailing list
> Fre...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel

[Freedos-devel] Accessibility question.

[Mike C. <kb...@ao...>]

    Hi. I'm visually impaired and would like to use free dos. Are there 
any developers willing to look in to creating a talking boot disk? Free 
dos would be very useful to blind people world wide if it had speech 
accessibility. I would think the free e-speak synthesizer could be 
ported to dos and made to work with one of the free dos screen readers 
out there. I'm not a developer, but would be willing to work with 
someone on this and do beta testing. I still have my dos screen readers. 
If software speech could be added to free dos there are at least two dos 
screen readers I know of that have been released as freeware. What would 
be ideal is a distro we could put on a flash drive that would detect 
sound cards and come up talking like the Slint Linux distro does. If any 
developers are willing to look into this it would be greatly appreciated 
and useful to people world wide.

Re: [Freedos-devel] Wayback

[Jerome S. <je...@sh...>]

Hi,

> On Oct 14, 2024, at 10:34 AM, Rugxulo via Freedos-devel <fre...@li...> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 7:16 AM Jerome Shidel via Freedos-devel
>> <fre...@li...> wrote:
>> 
>> Since this happened Thursday and is still ongoing, I guess it is old news.
>> 
>> But, I only found out today when I needed to (hopefully) go find some on the Wayback Machine.
>> 
>> Apparently, the Internet Archive was hacked and gave up about 31 million user names and password.
> 
> Sheesh! This is why we can't have nice things.
> 
>> It also has been undergoing a (D)DOS attack.
> 
> Seems like a strangely neutral site to attack.

Weird and annoying. 

> 
>> Their services are still offline.
> 
> It's back up now, apparently (from a quick check).

I just went to archive.org, says Wayback is up as “provisional and read-only”

So, they are getting there.

> 
> _______________________________________________
> Freedos-devel mailing list
> Fre...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel

Re: [Freedos-devel] Wayback

[Rugxulo <ru...@gm...>]

Hi,

On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 7:16 AM Jerome Shidel via Freedos-devel
<fre...@li...> wrote:
>
> Since this happened Thursday and is still ongoing, I guess it is old news.
>
> But, I only found out today when I needed to (hopefully) go find some on the Wayback Machine.
>
> Apparently, the Internet Archive was hacked and gave up about 31 million user names and password.

Sheesh! This is why we can't have nice things.

> It also has been undergoing a (D)DOS attack.

Seems like a strangely neutral site to attack.

> Their services are still offline.

It's back up now, apparently (from a quick check).