eof-dev — Only join this if you want to code.

[Eof-dev] I must be useless.

[Kirk R. <ki...@br...>]

Hi again folks:  Well, I looked through the archives for January and
February but didn't find any discussion of the mail or smtp specs.  I
saw references to the smtp modules in cvs which I haven't looked for
yet.  I couldn't manage to find a December archive though.  I don't
find the geocrawler linking convention intuitive either.  I found the
2001 arives available at lists/3/SourceForge/8627/2001 but there
didn't seem to be an entry for 2000 at least under the
lists/3/SourceForge/8627/2000 structure.  I tried to do a couple of
searches with the search feature but it seems useless.  It couldn't
even find anything with mail.

I have take a preliminary look through the cvs mail module though.  It
appears that all of the freenet specific stuff is in download.java, is
that correct?  Also reading through the other messages seemed to
indicate that SVKs are actually not updatable yet.  Is that true?

I have seen a number of references to freenetlib and libfreenet.  Are
these separate packages?  I looked through the freenetlib directory in
cvs and it appears to be python.  Yet Mark and Brandon made reference
to a c library interface.  Where might I find this library?  

  Kirk

Re: [Eof-dev] mail archives

[Kirk R. <ki...@br...>]

Okay, I'll check that out.  Now I know this is going to sound really
silly but I went to
http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/eof-dev/.  I mean the
mailing list is on sourceforge right?  This is getting to be something
like "the plans are on display at the bottom of a filing cabinet,
behind a locked door, in the basement of the public planning committee
building, guarded by a tiger."

  Kirk

-- 

Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: ki...@br...		University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061

Re: [Eof-dev] mail archives

[Brandon <bl...@ut...>]

> Well, the mail archive has one month listed, December with a total of
> one article only mentioning that you put freenetmail in cvs.  It would
> appear that it won't post January's archive until the end of the
> month.  No wait a minute, this is almost the end of February, okay
> I'll play, where have the archives gone?

I don't know what where you went, but here's a link to archives including
the message you just posted asking where the archives are:
http://www.geocrawler.com/lists/3/SourceForge/8627/0

[Eof-dev] mail archives

[Kirk R. <ki...@br...>]

Well, the mail archive has one month listed, December with a total of
one article only mentioning that you put freenetmail in cvs.  It would
appear that it won't post January's archive until the end of the
month.  No wait a minute, this is almost the end of February, okay
I'll play, where have the archives gone?

  Kirk

Re: [Eof-dev] current mail specs

[Kirk R. <ki...@br...>]

I will read the archives.  I thought the new specs were going to give
us a nice clean English interface to the server?  After looking them
over it seems very straight forward.

  Kirk

-- 

Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: ki...@br...		University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061

Re: [Eof-dev] current mail specs

[Brandon <bl...@ut...>]

> Hi Folks:  Well I was told that this is the place to be to discuss
> mail specifications for the freenet.  I have downloaded the current
> cvs but there appears to be no documentation of how the current code
> works.  Would someone mind giving a description of the protocal for
> the current implementation?

The documentation is in the mailing list archives. The mailing list
archives are short, so I don't feel bad telling you to go read them. Then
come back and I'l answer any questions because I may not have been
clear. I'll take any clarifications I need to make and put them in an
f-mail FAQ.

> I will attempt to look through the code but have to admit I don't
> really know java.  I was hoping for something which was written in c.

It's imperative to write everything in Java so that the library we use can
keep up with the rapidly changing Freenet protocol. If you want to
implement it in C that would be cool. You can use libfreenet, the Freenet
C client library. It should be pretty easy to write in C and libfreenet is
expected to not lag *too* far behind the reference implementation.

Re: [Eof-dev] current mail specs

[Kirk R. <ki...@br...>]

"Mark J. Roberts" <mj...@st...> writes:

> Hey! The CVS WORKS! Yay for EOF!
Haven't I seen you someplace before?  I think things is gettin' a bit
incestuous around here.

> Dunno.

Now I get myself all juiced up and excited about getting some answers
and yu don't know!

> We could certainly implement the protocols in C.

Well, I will volunteer to do just that should I ever get an
understanding about what we're supposed to be doing.

Let me throw out a few of my ideas and you may all laugh at me.

I was tinkin' see, that a person could decide on a KSK which would be
their mail address.  This KSK would point to a public pgp key.  They
would also have a second KSK which pointed to a sequence number.  I
think the KSK, let's call him "Joe Sixpack" would actually point to an
svk containing the public pgp key.  "Joe Sixpack-Seq" points to
another svk containing an eight hex digit sequence number. So I want
to send a note to Joe, I might insert it to "Joe
Sixpack-0000000000000001".  Joe's mail daemon is the keeper of the
"Joe Sixpack-Seq" key so it updates that each time a message is
retrieved with a higher number like 0000000000000002.

Okay, so I'm going to send Joe this not which my mailer hands off to
my mail daemon.  It looks to see if it has a "Joe Sixpack" key on its
keyring.  No? Put a request to the freenet for "Joe Sixpack"  We
receive the key and add to our keyring and encrypt our pending
outgoing message with the public key held there in.  We also request
"Joe Sixpack-Seq" to get the current sequence number at the time of
sending.  If we insert and get a key collision we increment the
sequence number and re-insert.  if we don't then it is merrily upon
its way.

Meanwhile back at Joe's daemon, it gets a periodicly requested "Joe
Sixpack-0000000000000000002".  It increments "Joe Sixpack-Seq" and
re-inserts it, decrypts the message and dumps it in Joes mailbox or
whatever.

So when you all get done laughing, please have pitty and realize I've
been having a hell of a time figuring these fucking Keys out and set
me straight.

  Kirk

-- 

Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: ki...@br...		University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061

Re: [Eof-dev] current mail specs

[Mark J. R. <mj...@st...>]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Kirk Reiser wrote:

> Hi Folks:  Well I was told that this is the place to be to discuss
> mail specifications for the freenet.  I have downloaded the current
> cvs but there appears to be no documentation of how the current code

Hey! The CVS WORKS! Yay for EOF!

> works.  Would someone mind giving a description of the protocal for
> the current implementation?

Dunno.

> I will attempt to look through the code but have to admit I don't
> really know java.  I was hoping for something which was written in c.

We could certainly implement the protocols in C.


-- 
Mark Roberts
mj...@st...

[Eof-dev] current mail specs

[Kirk R. <ki...@br...>]

Hi Folks:  Well I was told that this is the place to be to discuss
mail specifications for the freenet.  I have downloaded the current
cvs but there appears to be no documentation of how the current code
works.  Would someone mind giving a description of the protocal for
the current implementation?

I will attempt to look through the code but have to admit I don't
really know java.  I was hoping for something which was written in c.

  Kirk

Re: [Eof-dev] New web site

[Brandon <bl...@ut...>]

> I have made some preliminary improvements to the website.  A basic layout of
> the new design is at eof.sourceforge.net/test, and a template file for it is
> at eof.sourceforge.net/test/tmpl.shtml.
> 
> Please tell me what you think.

Neat.  I like it.

[Eof-dev] New web site

[Timm M. <ad...@ma...>]

I have made some preliminary improvements to the website.  A basic layout of
the new design is at eof.sourceforge.net/test, and a template file for it is
at eof.sourceforge.net/test/tmpl.shtml.

Please tell me what you think.

Re: [Eof-dev] Someone needs to add a Reply-To line

[Brandon <bl...@ut...>]

I found the passwords. It should all be fixed now.

Re: [Eof-dev] Someone needs to add a Reply-To line

[Brandon <bl...@ut...>]

> Mark J. Roberts told me that I should go and fix the EOF mailing lists
> so that it includes a reply-to line in every post so that replies
> automatically go to the mailing list instead of the person being
> replied to.  This was shown by how two of Brandon's posts went to me
> directly rather than to the mailing list.  Could someone with admin
> for EOF fix this?  I've tried to do it through ssh, but it isn't
> obvious how to change mailing list configuration.

Um...I don't seem to have the mailing lists passwords, actually. They're
randomly generated upon mailing list creation. Luckily, they should be
sent to me at the beginning of the month. As the ex-administrator of the
Freenet mailing lists, I should know better. So I'll fix this when I get
the passwords.

[Eof-dev] Someone needs to add a Reply-To line

[Travis B. <be...@ex...>]

Mark J. Roberts told me that I should go and fix the EOF mailing lists
so that it includes a reply-to line in every post so that replies
automatically go to the mailing list instead of the person being
replied to.  This was shown by how two of Brandon's posts went to me
directly rather than to the mailing list.  Could someone with admin
for EOF fix this?  I've tried to do it through ssh, but it isn't
obvious how to change mailing list configuration.

--=20
Yes, I know my enemies.
They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
All of which are American dreams.

              - Rage Against The Machine

Re: [Eof-dev] How to do formatting in Java

[Brandon <bl...@ut...>]

> I've been looking through the documentation for Java 1.1.8, and I can
> find no obvious way to do string formatting.  What I need this for is
> converting date data into the date format used by the newest version
> of fnnews, which requires padding numbers with zeros.  This would be
> very nontrivial only if Java had a good string formatting facility
> like the standard C libraries or Python.  So how do I do this without
> having to code the whole thing by hand?!

Java doesn't have a standard string formatting facility, but there are
many freely available libraries that provide C printf-like functions. You
can find them on freshmeat. Here's a link for one I stumbled upon earlier
today: http://www.acme.com/java/software/Acme.Fmt.html

Java has a lot of deficiencies, mainly in its standard libraries lacking
obvious functions. String handling is the part which I've found most
lacking. Luckily, there are freely available libraries. If you find some
good functions, add them to eof.util.StringUtils.

Re: [Eof-dev] How to do formatting in Java

[Travis B. <be...@ex...>]

On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 04:38:00PM -0500, Travis Bemann wrote:
> I've been looking through the documentation for Java 1.1.8, and I can
> find no obvious way to do string formatting.  What I need this for is
> converting date data into the date format used by the newest version
> of fnnews, which requires padding numbers with zeros.  This would be
> very nontrivial only if Java had a good string formatting facility
> like the standard C libraries or Python.  So how do I do this without
> having to code the whole thing by hand?!

Yes, I know that the answer is easy for simple stuff like this.
However, I still want to know whether there is a real general purpose
string formatting facility in Java.  Padding integer strings is easy,
but things are far more complicated with other formatting stuff.

--=20
Yes, I know my enemies.
They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
All of which are American dreams.

              - Rage Against The Machine

[Eof-dev] How to do formatting in Java

[Travis B. <be...@ex...>]

I've been looking through the documentation for Java 1.1.8, and I can
find no obvious way to do string formatting.  What I need this for is
converting date data into the date format used by the newest version
of fnnews, which requires padding numbers with zeros.  This would be
very nontrivial only if Java had a good string formatting facility
like the standard C libraries or Python.  So how do I do this without
having to code the whole thing by hand?!

--=20
Yes, I know my enemies.
They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
All of which are American dreams.

              - Rage Against The Machine

Re: [Eof-dev] Removed funky hex numbers from fnnews

[Mark J. R. <mj...@st...>]

On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Travis Bemann wrote:

> > Nevertheless, users don't want to sit there for a minutes waiting for the
> > archive(s) and still-unarchived posts to come in. That's why IMHO you
> > should cache recent posts, so the user can instantly access them.
>
> The archives are only created when up to or beyond a particular block
> of posts exists.  And note that you can still download all the new
> posts after an archive.
>
> As for caching, that would not be a problem at all.  This would make
> it so that fnnews posts are downloaded automatically as one does
> anything, and therefore make fnnews psychologically *appear* to be
> faster.  By using multithreading, fnnews can be made faster in
> reality.  By combining both of these things into a gateway, fnnews can
> actually appear to not be sluggish.

Well it wouldn't just be a psychological trick--caching posts in advance
is simply a better approach, if you don't mind the little disk space and
bandwidth it'd need.

> > You should set the Reply-To field on this list IMHO.
>
> You mean that I should set my Reply-To field to the eof-dev list?

No, you should configure the Eof-dev mailing list to set

	Reply-To: eo...@li...

like the Freenet lists do. Basically the argument is that if you do, then
people will accidentally post to the list when they want to send a private
email, and if you don't, people will accidentally send private email when
they want to post to the list. If you do, people will have to manually
override the Reply-To field (most mailers support this with one
keystroke), and if you don't, people will have to manually type in
eo...@li... every time they send mail to the list.


-- 
Mark Roberts
mj...@st...

Re: [Eof-dev] Removed funky hex numbers from fnnews

[Travis B. <be...@ex...>]

On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 03:07:39PM -0500, Mark J. Roberts wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Travis Bemann wrote:
>=20
> > On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 02:23:43PM -0500, Mark J. Roberts wrote:
> > > On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Travis Bemann wrote:
> > >
> > > > Here's my new hex-less version of fnnews, which is what I'm going to
> > > > change the current implementation of freenet-news into (with
> > > > archiving).
> >
> > By version of fnnews, I mean version of the standard of fnnews, not a
> > version of software.
> >
> > > Are you planning to have the server cache new articles for configured
> > > groups in advance?
> >
> > What server?!  By server do you mean fnnews-NNTP gateway?!
>=20
> Yes. NNTP client <-> fnnews server. Semantics.
>=20
> > There is something similar to caching used by fnnews called archiving,
> > which is essentially clients bundling fnnews ID blocks of size 64 into
> > single files for quick downloading.
>=20
> Nevertheless, users don't want to sit there for a minutes waiting for the
> archive(s) and still-unarchived posts to come in. That's why IMHO you
> should cache recent posts, so the user can instantly access them.

The archives are only created when up to or beyond a particular block
of posts exists.  And note that you can still download all the new
posts after an archive.

As for caching, that would not be a problem at all.  This would make
it so that fnnews posts are downloaded automatically as one does
anything, and therefore make fnnews psychologically *appear* to be
faster.  By using multithreading, fnnews can be made faster in
reality.  By combining both of these things into a gateway, fnnews can
actually appear to not be sluggish.

> > > On a completely unrelated note, debugging multithreaded applications =
is
> > > really hard. The backtraces are often meaningless and searches on Goo=
gle
> > > give me nothing useful... nevertheless, I have concurrent requests
> > > semi-stable now, and inserts might have a bug or two in libfreenet.
> >
> > Depends.  I've done some stuff with multithreading back in my Mac days
> > and actually got everything to work fine.  I've also done
> > multithreading stuff with the ancient freenetlib in Python, but I had
> > to cut that stuff out because it didn't work right.
> >
> > > I also have a really weird bug. My insert and request functions are
> > > recursive--if a non-fatal error is encountered, they call themselves =
and
> > > decrement the retries argument (when it hits 0 it aborts). Anyway, the
> > > request will always segfault when the recursion happens, even though =
the
> > > arguments are identical! WTF could this be?
> >
> > This is sort of the wrong context for this!  Did you accidentally
> > respond to the wrong post!
>=20
> Nah, I'm tired and I'm hoping someone knows something somewhere. I've been
> hacking pthreads for ages...
>=20
> You should set the Reply-To field on this list IMHO.

You mean that I should set my Reply-To field to the eof-dev list?

--=20
Yes, I know my enemies.
They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
All of which are American dreams.

              - Rage Against The Machine

Re: [Eof-dev] Removed funky hex numbers from fnnews

[Mark J. R. <mj...@st...>]

On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Travis Bemann wrote:

> Here's my new hex-less version of fnnews, which is what I'm going to
> change the current implementation of freenet-news into (with
> archiving).

Are you planning to have the server cache new articles for configured
groups in advance?

On a completely unrelated note, debugging multithreaded applications is
really hard. The backtraces are often meaningless and searches on Google
give me nothing useful... nevertheless, I have concurrent requests
semi-stable now, and inserts might have a bug or two in libfreenet.

I also have a really weird bug. My insert and request functions are
recursive--if a non-fatal error is encountered, they call themselves and
decrement the retries argument (when it hits 0 it aborts). Anyway, the
request will always segfault when the recursion happens, even though the
arguments are identical! WTF could this be?


-- 
Mark Roberts
mj...@st...

[Eof-dev] Removed funky hex numbers from fnnews

[Travis B. <be...@ex...>]

Here's my new hex-less version of fnnews, which is what I'm going to
change the current implementation of freenet-news into (with
archiving).

-- 
Yes, I know my enemies.
They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
All of which are American dreams.

              - Rage Against The Machine

Re: [Eof-dev] Big changes to fnnews

[Brandon <bl...@ut...>]

> How fnnews is implemented in the EOF CVS appears to be email/MIME
> based.  The thing is that fnnews isn't based on email and doesn't use
> MIME.  The reason why is that fnnews is quite different from email,
> and fnnews doesn't use MIME because there is no reason to have images
> and files in fnnews posts (they can just be stored in Freenet).  I'm
> thinking of completely reengineering the implementation of fnnews so
> it isn't tied to email and MIME.  Any comments?

Tne news implementation doesn't rely on e-mail, it relies on the JavaMail
library, which is a generic API for dealing with messages, folders, and
the like. It certainly doesn't rely on MIME. I might have used MimeMessage
instead of Message because it had a convenient utlity method that I found
useful. However, it's not necessary.

I think that switched from using a standard API like JavaMail to an
completely non-standard API requires an explanation of why it is necessary
and beneficial to do so.

In other words, what do you gain by not using JavaMail?

[Eof-dev] Big changes to fnnews

[Travis B. <be...@ex...>]

How fnnews is implemented in the EOF CVS appears to be email/MIME
based.  The thing is that fnnews isn't based on email and doesn't use
MIME.  The reason why is that fnnews is quite different from email,
and fnnews doesn't use MIME because there is no reason to have images
and files in fnnews posts (they can just be stored in Freenet).  I'm
thinking of completely reengineering the implementation of fnnews so
it isn't tied to email and MIME.  Any comments?

--=20
Yes, I know my enemies.
They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
All of which are American dreams.

              - Rage Against The Machine

Re: [Eof-dev] Is anybody out there?

[Brandon <bl...@ut...>]

> Anyway, I'd like to get it in the EOF CVS ASAP, so I want access. And
> maybe if we're really really lucky those lazy GCJ guys will fix
> BigInteger:divide so we can release real executables linked against
> libfred.so, too!

Cool. You now have access. A quick note on the CVS layout: the general
plan is to stick your abstract/API stuff in one module and your
protocol-specific stuff in another.

So in your case you'd have something like a "versionControl" module and
later a "cvs" module. The clients which you develop to use the abstract
stuff separate from a specific protocol go in the first directory.

So for instance for IRC I have a chat module which includes the little
chat client I wrote and then an irc module.

> Oh, and is anyone working on a bad-ass website layout? Do we want a
> bad-ass website layout? I can write one, if you're interested.

I'm fairly surely no one is working on the website. A bad-ass website
layout would be very cool. There are intermittent permission problems with
the website, so just make sure that you make any new files you create
group read/writable.

Re: [Eof-dev] Is anybody out there?

[Mark J. R. <mj...@st...>]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Brandon wrote:

> > Excellent. I'm going to start soon on my CVS-like (but not really) system
> > for mapping a Freenet-published directory hierarchy into your filesystem
> > so that you can download parts of it whenever you want.
>
> I think it would be way cool if you made actual CVS. :-)

I'll probably be able to release this in a couple days. The only remaining
issues are that metadata insertion is broken in libfreenet and I haven't
written the parallel insert and request support. But otherwise:

mjr::test$ chunga insert freenet:CHK@ somefiles/
I somefiles/anotherdir/onemore/xaa
I somefiles/anotherdir/onemore/xab
I somefiles/anotherdir/onemore/xac
I somefiles/anotherdir/onemore/xad
I somefiles/anotherdir/onemore/xae
I somefiles/anotherdir/xaa
I somefiles/anotherdir/xab
I somefiles/anotherdir/xac
I somefiles/anotherdir/xad
I somefiles/anotherdir/xae
I somefiles/anotherdir/xag
I somefiles/xaf
I somefiles/xag
I somefiles/xah
I somefiles/xai
I somefiles/xaj
I /tmp/chungatemp
freenet:CHK@w5xOyzhw9-G0aPGSBMwWMYELbpgLAwE,V6jEKFzJ1eet9xXuiCbg0Q inserted.

and then

mjr::test$ rm -rf somefiles/
mjr::test$ chunga checkout freenet:CHK@w5xOyzhw9-G0aPGSBMwWMYELbpgLAwE,V6jEKFzJ1eet9xXuiCbg0Q
G somefiles/anotherdir/onemore/xaa
G somefiles/anotherdir/onemore/xab
G somefiles/anotherdir/onemore/xac
G somefiles/anotherdir/onemore/xad
G somefiles/anotherdir/onemore/xae
G somefiles/anotherdir/xaa
G somefiles/anotherdir/xab
G somefiles/anotherdir/xac
G somefiles/anotherdir/xad
G somefiles/anotherdir/xae
G somefiles/anotherdir/xag
G somefiles/xaf
G somefiles/xag
G somefiles/xah
G somefiles/xai
G somefiles/xaj

and finally you download what you want (I'll request it all):

mjr::test$ chunga get somefiles/
D somefiles/anotherdir/onemore/xaa
D somefiles/anotherdir/onemore/xab
D somefiles/anotherdir/onemore/xac
D somefiles/anotherdir/onemore/xad
D somefiles/anotherdir/onemore/xae
D somefiles/anotherdir/xaa
D somefiles/anotherdir/xab
D somefiles/anotherdir/xac
D somefiles/anotherdir/xad
D somefiles/anotherdir/xae
D somefiles/anotherdir/xag
D somefiles/xaf
D somefiles/xag
D somefiles/xah
D somefiles/xai
D somefiles/xaj

and they're there. I haven't started thinking about updating yet, but I
don't think it'll be too hard. And of course once I have that done then we
can start thinking about CVS.

Anyway, I'd like to get it in the EOF CVS ASAP, so I want access. And
maybe if we're really really lucky those lazy GCJ guys will fix
BigInteger:divide so we can release real executables linked against
libfred.so, too!

Oh, and is anyone working on a bad-ass website layout? Do we want a
bad-ass website layout? I can write one, if you're interested.


--
Mark Roberts
mj...@st...