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From: Brandon <bl...@ut...> - 2001-04-29 22:54:26
|
> > I think it's time we all got f-mail addresses and started chatting. > Even on an f-mail-list...? Well, mailing lists can come later. Just sending private message between people is the first step. Then next is to make sure that it's interoperable with the feedback mechanisms of the freesites. Once we get all the freesite users using f-mail to communicate with each other and with site maintainers, then we can start setting up f-mail lists. |
|
From: toad <ma...@to...> - 2001-04-29 22:47:36
|
On Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 05:42:38PM -0500, Brandon wrote:
>
> I've fixed all the known bugs with Freenet Mail. It was doing funny stuff
> when you restarted your node like redelivering messages.
>
> It now seems to be working just peachy and KMail even works for both
> sending and receiving.
>
> Local delivery doesn't work yet, but POP does. Remember to set htl in your
> .eof-smtprc to 100 or so to make sure your mail propagates.
>
> I think it's time we all got f-mail addresses and started chatting.
Even on an f-mail-list...?
--
Always hardwire the explosives
-- Fiona Dexter quoting Monkey, J. Gregory Keyes, Dark Genesis
|
|
From: Brandon <bl...@ut...> - 2001-04-29 22:46:40
|
> A sendmail wrapper would make mutt, and most other things, work under unix. > I might do something in shell script if I had freenet-mail working locally, but > have difficulties compiling java code... are there snapshot JARs? Yeah, mutt uses sendmail so you have to somehow configure sendmail to work with EOF to make it work with mutt. I don't know anything about that. I tried reading up on sendmail and it was quite complicated. There are no snapshots, but I think we're not too far from an actual release. We need to do some testing first, of course. A snapshot wouldn't help you at the moment unless sendmail and be configured to send mail to a particular SMTP host and port. I'm not sure if it can or not. Mutt could also be configured to use a different mail sending program instead of sendmail, but there isn't a command line interface at the moment. I'm going to modify Mr. Bad's noble freenetmail program to use the eof.mail classes, but I haven't gotten to that yet. |
|
From: Brandon <bl...@ut...> - 2001-04-29 22:42:26
|
I've fixed all the known bugs with Freenet Mail. It was doing funny stuff when you restarted your node like redelivering messages. It now seems to be working just peachy and KMail even works for both sending and receiving. Local delivery doesn't work yet, but POP does. Remember to set htl in your .eof-smtprc to 100 or so to make sure your mail propagates. I think it's time we all got f-mail addresses and started chatting. |
|
From: toad <ma...@to...> - 2001-04-29 22:38:58
|
On Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 03:29:29PM -0500, Brandon wrote:
>
> I've debugged freenet mail using IndexClient to the point that I can send
> and receive in pine and receive in Balsa. Balsa is one of those stupid
> mail readers that can't use SMTP servers on non-standard ports. So you
> can't send freenet mail using balsa unless you run the EOF SMTP daemon on
> the standard port, replacing your normal SMTP server. And you have to run
> it as root.
>
> There are a couple of ways around this, but they all suck. You can install
> a port forwarder on the standard port. It has to be run as root, but is a
> very simple program with less associated security risks.
>
> I'm eventually going to make EOF SMTP pass through non-freenet mail to a
> secondary SMTP server. So you could run your SMTP server on a non-standard
> port and run EOF SMTP on the standard one, but you still have to run it as
> root.
>
> Or you could just bug the Balsa developers to add support for non-standard
> SMTP ports.
>
> Pine is also buggy in that it has trouble reading POP accounts on
> non-standard ports. It thinks them to be IMAP accounts.
>
> So currently the only fully functional reading and sending capable client
> is Netscape Mail. I'm going to check out KMail, though.
A sendmail wrapper would make mutt, and most other things, work under unix.
I might do something in shell script if I had freenet-mail working locally, but
have difficulties compiling java code... are there snapshot JARs?
--
Always hardwire the explosives
-- Fiona Dexter quoting Monkey, J. Gregory Keyes, Dark Genesis
|
|
From: Brandon <bl...@ut...> - 2001-04-29 20:29:18
|
I've debugged freenet mail using IndexClient to the point that I can send and receive in pine and receive in Balsa. Balsa is one of those stupid mail readers that can't use SMTP servers on non-standard ports. So you can't send freenet mail using balsa unless you run the EOF SMTP daemon on the standard port, replacing your normal SMTP server. And you have to run it as root. There are a couple of ways around this, but they all suck. You can install a port forwarder on the standard port. It has to be run as root, but is a very simple program with less associated security risks. I'm eventually going to make EOF SMTP pass through non-freenet mail to a secondary SMTP server. So you could run your SMTP server on a non-standard port and run EOF SMTP on the standard one, but you still have to run it as root. Or you could just bug the Balsa developers to add support for non-standard SMTP ports. Pine is also buggy in that it has trouble reading POP accounts on non-standard ports. It thinks them to be IMAP accounts. So currently the only fully functional reading and sending capable client is Netscape Mail. I'm going to check out KMail, though. |
|
From: Brandon <bl...@ut...> - 2001-04-29 07:14:46
|
I've switched Freenet Mail to using IndexClient and debugged the SMTP interface. Using SMTP to send messages should work now. I need to test on something other than Pine, of course. It's really cool that Freenet Mail is based on IndexClient because you can now send mail to sn...@fr...eenet and it should insert your mail into Snarfoo's feedback index. Be careful, though, because your mail reader might be putting headers into your mail that give away your identity. I need to test this on several mail readers and strip these out. I guess I should actually just strip out all but known mail headers. |
|
From: Brandon <bl...@ut...> - 2001-04-29 05:25:29
|
> I've decided that I might as well now go ahead with making EOF News > use IndexClient. Yes, I know that Brandon has to fix some stuff with > IndexClient (such as IndexClient counting misses instead of > consecutive misses). Is there any problems with me doing this? Is > IndexClient really functional at the present? I highly recommend it. I just convereted all of mail to IndexClient and it seems to be working beautifully. There are still a few bugs, but that's in the mail header formatting. IndexClient is pretty stable as it's also the base for the much-used KeyIndexClient library. |
|
From: Travis B. <be...@ex...> - 2001-04-28 22:43:16
|
I've decided that I might as well now go ahead with making EOF News
use IndexClient. Yes, I know that Brandon has to fix some stuff with
IndexClient (such as IndexClient counting misses instead of
consecutive misses). Is there any problems with me doing this? Is
IndexClient really functional at the present?
--=20
Yes, I know my enemies.
They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
All of which are American dreams.
- Rage Against The Machine |
|
From: Travis B. <be...@ex...> - 2001-04-27 12:20:49
|
On Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 10:04:54AM +1000, David Findlay wrote:
> On Friday 27 April 2001 10:01, you wrote:
> > Your scheme requires an administrator, and seems to require changes to
> > the architecture of Freenet itself.
>=20
> No it don't. Each node running freenet news acts as it's own administrato=
r=20
> and decides whether this group has been democratically created or not.
You show it will right here. This is what requires changes to the
Freenet node. Nodes don't run Freenet News as some sort of service on
them, David. For your scheme, Freenet News has to be part of the
Freenet nodes themselves.
--=20
Yes, I know my enemies.
They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
All of which are American dreams.
- Rage Against The Machine |
|
From: David F. <dav...@ya...> - 2001-04-27 00:04:54
|
On Friday 27 April 2001 10:01, you wrote: > Your scheme requires an administrator, and seems to require changes to > the architecture of Freenet itself. No it don't. Each node running freenet news acts as it's own administrator and decides whether this group has been democratically created or not. David |
|
From: Brandon <bl...@ut...> - 2001-04-27 00:01:16
|
> Your scheme requires an administrator, and seems to require changes to > the architecture of Freenet itself. Actually, it can be implemented just fine over the current news architecture. You just tell the client to read its group list from SSK@blah and the owner of that SSK will get to control the groups. I just think that you should have the option of administrated or non-administrated groups. Administrated groups *do* have advantages. They can be kept free of hoards of mindless script kiddie spam. But they have to be just one option because otherwise the administrator can be subverted by The Forces Of Evil. |
|
From: Brandon <bl...@ut...> - 2001-04-26 23:55:39
|
> > This is way too centralized and such, and it just isn't necessary. > > Centralized? I thought it was totatly decentralized. The groups are created > on each node only when the votes are seen by that node. They are decentralized in that sense, but they are centralized in the sense that a single person or group of people would have control. True decentralization means that no one has total control. The best way to do this and still have some sense of order is to let the client be configured as to which newsgroup lists it wants to download and have some of these lists be privately moderated by indivuals or groups and some of them be free-for-all anarchy. > How do you find other groups then? You just download a group list. A group list is just an index. So a public group looks like this: public-group-0 public-group-1 public-group-2 and a private group looks like this: SSK@asdfsakljasdjkla/group-0 SSK@asdfsakljasdjkla/group-1 SSK@asdfsakljasdjkla/group-2 |
|
From: Brandon <bl...@ut...> - 2001-04-26 23:51:25
|
> > I worked on this somewhat today by reworking IndexClient so that it > > supports starting at an arbitrary place in an index. > > Why not immediately reengineer both mail and news to use IndexClient > than wait until later to reengineer them? I'm in the process. I'm very busy, but I am putting some time in every day this week to do this. IndexClient is at the point that it can now be used as the basis for things. I just need to switch the code over to use it. I'm simultaneously doing some redesign of the Uploader/Downloader classes because they seem to be somewhat buggy. |
|
From: Travis B. <be...@ex...> - 2001-04-26 23:45:34
|
On Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 08:37:06AM +1000, David Findlay wrote:
> > This is way too centralized and such, and it just isn't necessary.
>=20
> Centralized? I thought it was totatly decentralized. The groups are creat=
ed=20
> on each node only when the votes are seen by that node.
Your scheme requires an administrator, and seems to require changes to
the architecture of Freenet itself. Brandon's and my scheme does not
use/require either of these. Your requiring an administrator is
inherently centralized and is rather authoritarian (while our scheme
is libertarian (not Libertarian, mind you) and egalitarian, for anyone
can create a newsgroup and anyone can post to any newsgroup they know
of and no one can censor a newsgroup).
> > Look - in Freenet news all a newsgroup is a bunch of messages grouped
> > by date and index (each different date has a different enumeration).
> > Messages which are not looked at by anyone eventually disappear on
> > their own. We don't need big voting systems and such. Your system is
> > way too elaborate, and all this elaboration isn't necessary.
>=20
> How do you find other groups then?
Thru newsgroup lists (anyone can at any time create a newsgroup with
Freenet news by simply posting to it, and no one can destroy a
newsgroup at all (posts are automatically garbage collected, and when
no posts are left in a newsgroup, the newsgroup is either empty or
gone, which are effectively equivalent with Freenet news)). One
advantage of this is that people can create secret newsgroups and
such, and there is no way for someone to find them unless they just
happen to accidentally stumble on them (which is very unlikely if the
name is something like a moderate size random printable ASCII string)
or someone betrays their existance.
--=20
Yes, I know my enemies.
They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
All of which are American dreams.
- Rage Against The Machine |
|
From: Travis B. <be...@ex...> - 2001-04-26 23:08:03
|
On Thu, Apr 26, 2001 at 03:20:35PM -0500, Brandon wrote:
>=20
> > You should change that to DateIndexClient, for various reasons. News
> > uses a date and an index now, and mail should also do so (so it
> > doesn't have the "find the last message" problem that results from
> > some of the messages imbetween the first and last message
> > disappearing).
>=20
> IndexClient has date-based and non-date-based modes, date-based is the
> default.
Very good. There are some things such as in-Freenet indices which
require non-date-based modes, so it is still useful to have them
around (despite the fact that they have the disadvantages that I
illustrated above).
--=20
Yes, I know my enemies.
They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
All of which are American dreams.
- Rage Against The Machine |
|
From: David F. <dav...@ya...> - 2001-04-26 22:40:10
|
> This is way too centralized and such, and it just isn't necessary. Centralized? I thought it was totatly decentralized. The groups are created on each node only when the votes are seen by that node. > Look - in Freenet news all a newsgroup is a bunch of messages grouped > by date and index (each different date has a different enumeration). > Messages which are not looked at by anyone eventually disappear on > their own. We don't need big voting systems and such. Your system is > way too elaborate, and all this elaboration isn't necessary. How do you find other groups then? David |
|
From: Travis B. <be...@ex...> - 2001-04-26 22:11:11
|
On Thu, Apr 26, 2001 at 04:23:04AM -0500, Brandon wrote:
>=20
> > P.S. Attn Blanu: I tried compiling news got 11 errors - see you next ti=
me in
> > IRC.
>=20
> News is currently in flux because Travis is working on it. I'm going to
> rip the guts out of both mail and news in a little bit and replace the
> redundant code with calls to the IndexClient library. That will leave just
> the mail and news specific code in them, which should make things a lot
> easier to read and understand.
>=20
> I worked on this somewhat today by reworking IndexClient so that it
> supports starting at an arbitrary place in an index.
Why not immediately reengineer both mail and news to use IndexClient
than wait until later to reengineer them?
--=20
Yes, I know my enemies.
They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
All of which are American dreams.
- Rage Against The Machine |
|
From: Brandon <bl...@ut...> - 2001-04-26 20:28:35
|
> The best arguement I can think of for hierarchy control of groups on Freenet > news is look at Usenet. We have fifteen thousand groups in alt.* some of them > as useful as alt.foo.bar, alt.my.foot.hurts, etc, etc, etc. By controlling > the creation of new groups using an automated vote based system would > eliminate the useless groups that clog up the newsgroup lists. You would know > that the newsgroup you go to is a actively used group. First of all, we can't have a system in which a single person or group of persons control group creation. This is technically impossible. We could hardcode our software to ignore all but the groups that we create. It would only be slightly more work to allow the user to configure which group list they want to read rather than being forced to use ours. That way if someone disagrees with the way that we're running things, they can split off their own newsgroup hierarchy and people can choose which one to read. If you're going to allow for multiple privately control group lists then it's no extra work to allow for publically controlled group lists as well. Sure, they might suck. People might be constantly creating stupid groups. If that is the case then people will get annoyed and use one of the privately controlled group lists in order to avoid the spam. Probably ours since it will be the first one. The rest of your suggestions are orthogonal to the news system design. The news system just needs to have a list of groups and should be able to be configured to use any public or private list. How we maintain our private list is an entirely separate issue. I'm fine with a voting system. If someone doesn't like this system, they can start their own private list. All of this group list maintenance and submission and such can be done via the key index API, BTW, so should be pretty easy to code. |
|
From: Brandon <bl...@ut...> - 2001-04-26 20:22:47
|
> You should change that to DateIndexClient, for various reasons. News > uses a date and an index now, and mail should also do so (so it > doesn't have the "find the last message" problem that results from > some of the messages imbetween the first and last message > disappearing). IndexClient has date-based and non-date-based modes, date-based is the default. |
|
From: Travis B. <be...@ex...> - 2001-04-26 12:24:16
|
On Thu, Apr 26, 2001 at 08:13:43PM +1000, David Findlay wrote:
> The best arguement I can think of for hierarchy control of groups on Free=
net=20
> news is look at Usenet. We have fifteen thousand groups in alt.* some of =
them=20
> as useful as alt.foo.bar, alt.my.foot.hurts, etc, etc, etc. By controllin=
g=20
> the creation of new groups using an automated vote based system would=20
> eliminate the useless groups that clog up the newsgroup lists. You would =
know=20
> that the newsgroup you go to is a actively used group.
>=20
> The procedure to create a new group is thus:
>=20
> 1. Request for discussion. This is a properly formatted request for=20
> discussion of the merits of a new group's creation. This message would be=
=20
> posted to both the closest group to what is wanted(the group that wants t=
he=20
> new group) and a group admin.requests.
>=20
> 2. Call for Votes. This would be posted to the group that wants the new g=
roup=20
> and admin.requests. After this votes would be replied to this. A vote wou=
ld=20
> be a message in response with the body "Yes" or "No". Each node would mon=
itor=20
> the tally for 1 week. After the week if the node has 2/3 majority yes, th=
e=20
> group is created on that node. Each node does this and thus ensures that =
the=20
> proper process has been followed. The group would be added to a newsgroup=
s=20
> file - local only(not in freenet node).
>=20
> When a new machine wants to start using news, it connects to freenet and=
=20
> requests the news admin SSK. This file will be a daily DBR containing the=
=20
> latest list of newsgroups. It then writes this to the local newsgroups fi=
le.
>=20
> This system allows it to be uncontrolled and uncensored, but still stops =
the=20
> glut of rubbish groups that are form in alt.*.
This is way too centralized and such, and it just isn't necessary.
Look - in Freenet news all a newsgroup is a bunch of messages grouped
by date and index (each different date has a different enumeration).
Messages which are not looked at by anyone eventually disappear on
their own. We don't need big voting systems and such. Your system is
way too elaborate, and all this elaboration isn't necessary.
--=20
Yes, I know my enemies.
They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
All of which are American dreams.
- Rage Against The Machine |
|
From: Travis B. <be...@ex...> - 2001-04-26 12:14:36
|
On Thu, Apr 26, 2001 at 04:23:04AM -0500, Brandon wrote:
>=20
> > P.S. Attn Blanu: I tried compiling news got 11 errors - see you next ti=
me in
> > IRC.
>=20
> News is currently in flux because Travis is working on it. I'm going to
> rip the guts out of both mail and news in a little bit and replace the
> redundant code with calls to the IndexClient library. That will leave just
> the mail and news specific code in them, which should make things a lot
> easier to read and understand.
>=20
> I worked on this somewhat today by reworking IndexClient so that it
> supports starting at an arbitrary place in an index.
You should change that to DateIndexClient, for various reasons. News
uses a date and an index now, and mail should also do so (so it
doesn't have the "find the last message" problem that results from
some of the messages imbetween the first and last message
disappearing).
--=20
Yes, I know my enemies.
They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
All of which are American dreams.
- Rage Against The Machine |
|
From: David F. <dav...@ya...> - 2001-04-26 10:13:41
|
The best arguement I can think of for hierarchy control of groups on Freenet news is look at Usenet. We have fifteen thousand groups in alt.* some of them as useful as alt.foo.bar, alt.my.foot.hurts, etc, etc, etc. By controlling the creation of new groups using an automated vote based system would eliminate the useless groups that clog up the newsgroup lists. You would know that the newsgroup you go to is a actively used group. The procedure to create a new group is thus: 1. Request for discussion. This is a properly formatted request for discussion of the merits of a new group's creation. This message would be posted to both the closest group to what is wanted(the group that wants the new group) and a group admin.requests. 2. Call for Votes. This would be posted to the group that wants the new group and admin.requests. After this votes would be replied to this. A vote would be a message in response with the body "Yes" or "No". Each node would monitor the tally for 1 week. After the week if the node has 2/3 majority yes, the group is created on that node. Each node does this and thus ensures that the proper process has been followed. The group would be added to a newsgroups file - local only(not in freenet node). When a new machine wants to start using news, it connects to freenet and requests the news admin SSK. This file will be a daily DBR containing the latest list of newsgroups. It then writes this to the local newsgroups file. This system allows it to be uncontrolled and uncensored, but still stops the glut of rubbish groups that are form in alt.*. David |
|
From: Brandon <bl...@ut...> - 2001-04-26 09:22:57
|
> P.S. Attn Blanu: I tried compiling news got 11 errors - see you next time in > IRC. News is currently in flux because Travis is working on it. I'm going to rip the guts out of both mail and news in a little bit and replace the redundant code with calls to the IndexClient library. That will leave just the mail and news specific code in them, which should make things a lot easier to read and understand. I worked on this somewhat today by reworking IndexClient so that it supports starting at an arbitrary place in an index. |
|
From: David F. <dav...@ya...> - 2001-04-26 09:07:14
|
List of clients that seem to work with Freenet Mail: Pine Netscape Mail List of clients that don't work with Freenet Mail: KMail - Just sits there staring into space when trying to send message Balsa - Doesn't work with it at all I was also thinking about writing a specific client in QT2.2 for Freenet Mail. It will be specific to Freenet Mail and allow the use of a Freenet based keyindex as a Yellow pages of addresses of people. Any ideas? David P.S. Attn Blanu: I tried compiling news got 11 errors - see you next time in IRC. |
