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From: Bruce S. <bw...@re...> - 2008-10-24 16:59:09
|
> If I decide to also use a token with the functionality of storing a > cert on it, I would of course choose one which is not a plain USB > flash drive. There are devices out there with all kinds of security. > Example: http://www.aladdin.com/etoken/devices/ng-otp.aspx That one is cool, and I like the fact they list Linux as a supported OS! - BS |
|
From: Heiko Z. <he...@zu...> - 2008-10-24 16:00:50
|
Quoting Bruce Smith <bw...@re...>: > The link you send looks like a hardware device (hard to copy). > It sounds similar to RSA devices I've seen and understand. > Those make password sharing difficult (my requirement). > > There was some other talk about USB sticks. > Since they are easy to copy, I don't think those will prevent password > sharing, and don't fulfill my requirement. > > Are we on close to being on the same page yet? :-) Slowly. If I decide to also use a token with the functionality of storing a cert on it, I would of course choose one which is not a plain USB flash drive. There are devices out there with all kinds of security. Example: http://www.aladdin.com/etoken/devices/ng-otp.aspx -- Regards Heiko Zuerker http://www.devil-linux.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. |
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From: Heiko Z. <he...@zu...> - 2008-10-24 15:44:10
|
Quoting Bruce Smith <bw...@re...>: > That sounds good ... except you can't login places without cell phone > coverage (like my house). :-) I would use a device which doesn't need anything installed on the phone. It's a separate security token. Unfortunately my company locked down installing software on the blackberry, otherwise this exercise would be a lot easier for me... -- Regards Heiko Zuerker http://www.devil-linux.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. |
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From: Bruce S. <bw...@re...> - 2008-10-24 15:41:35
|
The link you send looks like a hardware device (hard to copy). It sounds similar to RSA devices I've seen and understand. Those make password sharing difficult (my requirement). There was some other talk about USB sticks. Since they are easy to copy, I don't think those will prevent password sharing, and don't fulfill my requirement. Are we on close to being on the same page yet? :-) - BS >> I must be missing something. :-) > > Yes. ;-) > > You're confusing the OTP (One Time Password) I'm looking at with > storing a certificate on a USB key. > The password generator I'm looking at doesn't connect to a PC. You > register the device with your software and initialize it with a unique > key. From then on whenever you press the button on the device it will > show you a 6 digit code. This and your secret PIN are the 2 things you > need to login. > The code of course changes based upon date/time. > > -- > > Regards > Heiko Zuerker > http://www.devil-linux.org > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge > Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes > Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > Devil-linux-discuss mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss > -- - BS |
|
From: Fred F. <ffr...@lo...> - 2008-10-24 15:39:47
|
Or you change the phone and stop receiving the messages (particularly when the system is not under your control). Fred Frigerio Locust USA This electronic message transmission contains information from Locust USA which may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us by telephone (305-889-5410) or by reply via electronic mail immediately. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:bw...@re...] Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:35 AM To: dev...@li... Subject: Re: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens That sounds good ... except you can't login places without cell phone coverage (like my house). :-) - BS > I think the system sends you an sms message with a one time key Sent > via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Moray McConnachie" <mmc...@ox...> > > Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:33:26 > To: <dev...@li...> > Subject: Re: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens > > > That's true, but the user would have to give someone access to their > key and their password. So you are making theft pretty tricky. I don't > know if it was truly a goal of this system to prevent a user at all > costs giving someone else access. I mean even with a traditional RSA > device a user could give someone their passcode and lend them the RSA device. > > At least one of Heiko's exemplars has the "physical" factor be > software running on a mobile phone. I don't know if it is possible in > a Java environment to lock this to a particular phone. It would be > possible in a Windows Mobile environment. > > M. > ------------------------------------- > Moray McConnachie > Head of IS +44 1865 261 600 > Oxford Analytica http://www.oxan.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Smith [mailto:bw...@re...] > Sent: 24 October 2008 15:22 > To: dev...@li... > Subject: Re: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens > > I must be missing something. :-) > > I understand the advantages of hardware keys. > > But the USB stick approach still sounds a lot like putting an > encrypted private key on a USB stick. > > Something I have (usb stick), and something I know (password to > decrypt key). > > Maybe it's because I'm not thinking how I could use this personally. > I'm thinking in terms of a corporate wide solution. > > If I was to implement this at work, I believe I would still need a > hardware key to prevent password sharing. The hardware RSA keys > cannot be duplicated, and the number on the display is constantly changing. > That require employees to have the key in hand when logging in. It > also prevents them from making extra copies of the key and giving it > out to other people. And hence puts a stop to those people who have > the bad habit of sharing their password. > > I can't see how to accomplish the same thing with software only, on > media that can be copied. > > - BS > > >> There are two things. The USB key is part of a two factor login. >> Something you know (username and password) and something you have >> (the > >> usb key). You could duplicate the key but you need physical access, >> and you can in theory guess the value of that key but that can be as >> long as you want. Username and passwords we all know how fragile they >> are. The only other factor one can add is something you are >> (fingerprint for example). >> >> Another version of something you have which makes it harder to >> duplicate is a single key generator. If you somehow intercept the key >> on one login (Tempest? Key Logger?) it will not help you on the next >> loggin. You need to have access to the key generator. There are >> weaknesses but still stronger than password protected keychain for >> SSH > for example. >> >> There are variations and some weaken the system to avoid data loss >> through loosing the key. >> >> >> Fred Frigerio >> Locust USA >> >> This electronic message transmission contains information from Locust >> USA which may be confidential or privileged. The information is >> intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. >> If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, >> copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is >> prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in >> error, please notify us by telephone (305-889-5410) or by reply via >> electronic mail immediately. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bruce Smith [mailto:bw...@re...] >> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 7:33 AM >> To: dev...@li... >> Subject: Re: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens >> >> I admit that I've never researched this subject, but ... >> >> Can't software tokens and USB keys easily be copied? >> Doesn't that defeat the purpose? >> >> What's the difference between a USB/software key and just putting >> your > >> private key on a USB stick? >> >> - BS >> >> >>> I found some infos, in case someone else is interested too. >>> It's all free and seems to work with software tokens, so a hardware >>> token should hopefully work too. >>> >>> http://www.oiepoie.nl/2008/05/02/free-strong-two-factor-authenticati >>> o n -using-one-time-passwords-on-your-mobile-phone/ >>> http://www.tri-dsystems.com/documentation/quickstart.html >>> http://fbq.hamal.nl/index.php/archives/8#more-8 >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Regards >>> Heiko Zuerker >>> http://www.devil-linux.org >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -- >> - >> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's >> challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK >> & > >> win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source >> event > >> anywhere in the world >> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Devil-linux-discuss mailing list >> Dev...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move >> Developer's > >> challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK >> & > >> win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source >> event > >> anywhere in the world >> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Devil-linux-discuss mailing list >> Dev...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss >> > > > > -- > - BS > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > - > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & > win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event > anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > Devil-linux-discuss mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & > win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event > anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > Devil-linux-discuss mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & > win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event > anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > Devil-linux-discuss mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss > -- - BS ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ _______________________________________________ Devil-linux-discuss mailing list Dev...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss |
|
From: Bruce S. <bw...@re...> - 2008-10-24 15:34:50
|
That sounds good ... except you can't login places without cell phone coverage (like my house). :-) - BS > I think the system sends you an sms message with a one time key > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Moray McConnachie" <mmc...@ox...> > > Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:33:26 > To: <dev...@li...> > Subject: Re: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens > > > That's true, but the user would have to give someone access to their key > and their password. So you are making theft pretty tricky. I don't know > if it was truly a goal of this system to prevent a user at all costs > giving someone else access. I mean even with a traditional RSA device a > user could give someone their passcode and lend them the RSA device. > > At least one of Heiko's exemplars has the "physical" factor be software > running on a mobile phone. I don't know if it is possible in a Java > environment to lock this to a particular phone. It would be possible in > a Windows Mobile environment. > > M. > ------------------------------------- > Moray McConnachie > Head of IS +44 1865 261 600 > Oxford Analytica http://www.oxan.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Smith [mailto:bw...@re...] > Sent: 24 October 2008 15:22 > To: dev...@li... > Subject: Re: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens > > I must be missing something. :-) > > I understand the advantages of hardware keys. > > But the USB stick approach still sounds a lot like putting an encrypted > private key on a USB stick. > > Something I have (usb stick), and something I know (password to decrypt > key). > > Maybe it's because I'm not thinking how I could use this personally. > I'm thinking in terms of a corporate wide solution. > > If I was to implement this at work, I believe I would still need a > hardware key to prevent password sharing. The hardware RSA keys cannot > be duplicated, and the number on the display is constantly changing. > That require employees to have the key in hand when logging in. It also > prevents them from making extra copies of the key and giving it out to > other people. And hence puts a stop to those people who have the bad > habit of sharing their password. > > I can't see how to accomplish the same thing with software only, on > media that can be copied. > > - BS > > >> There are two things. The USB key is part of a two factor login. >> Something you know (username and password) and something you have (the > >> usb key). You could duplicate the key but you need physical access, >> and you can in theory guess the value of that key but that can be as >> long as you want. Username and passwords we all know how fragile they >> are. The only other factor one can add is something you are >> (fingerprint for example). >> >> Another version of something you have which makes it harder to >> duplicate is a single key generator. If you somehow intercept the key >> on one login (Tempest? Key Logger?) it will not help you on the next >> loggin. You need to have access to the key generator. There are >> weaknesses but still stronger than password protected keychain for SSH > for example. >> >> There are variations and some weaken the system to avoid data loss >> through loosing the key. >> >> >> Fred Frigerio >> Locust USA >> >> This electronic message transmission contains information from Locust >> USA which may be confidential or privileged. The information is >> intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. >> If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, >> copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is >> prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in >> error, please notify us by telephone (305-889-5410) or by reply via >> electronic mail immediately. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bruce Smith [mailto:bw...@re...] >> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 7:33 AM >> To: dev...@li... >> Subject: Re: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens >> >> I admit that I've never researched this subject, but ... >> >> Can't software tokens and USB keys easily be copied? >> Doesn't that defeat the purpose? >> >> What's the difference between a USB/software key and just putting your > >> private key on a USB stick? >> >> - BS >> >> >>> I found some infos, in case someone else is interested too. >>> It's all free and seems to work with software tokens, so a hardware >>> token should hopefully work too. >>> >>> http://www.oiepoie.nl/2008/05/02/free-strong-two-factor-authenticatio >>> n -using-one-time-passwords-on-your-mobile-phone/ >>> http://www.tri-dsystems.com/documentation/quickstart.html >>> http://fbq.hamal.nl/index.php/archives/8#more-8 >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Regards >>> Heiko Zuerker >>> http://www.devil-linux.org >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> - >> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's >> challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & > >> win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event > >> anywhere in the world >> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Devil-linux-discuss mailing list >> Dev...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > >> challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & > >> win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event > >> anywhere in the world >> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Devil-linux-discuss mailing list >> Dev...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss >> > > > > -- > - BS > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & > win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event > anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > Devil-linux-discuss mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge > Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes > Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > Devil-linux-discuss mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge > Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes > Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > Devil-linux-discuss mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss > -- - BS |
|
From: Heiko Z. <he...@zu...> - 2008-10-24 14:47:11
|
Quoting Bruce Smith <bw...@re...>: > I must be missing something. :-) Yes. ;-) You're confusing the OTP (One Time Password) I'm looking at with storing a certificate on a USB key. The password generator I'm looking at doesn't connect to a PC. You register the device with your software and initialize it with a unique key. From then on whenever you press the button on the device it will show you a 6 digit code. This and your secret PIN are the 2 things you need to login. The code of course changes based upon date/time. -- Regards Heiko Zuerker http://www.devil-linux.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. |
|
From: Fred F. <ffr...@lo...> - 2008-10-24 14:35:32
|
I think the system sends you an sms message with a one time key Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: "Moray McConnachie" <mmc...@ox...> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:33:26 To: <dev...@li...> Subject: Re: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens That's true, but the user would have to give someone access to their key and their password. So you are making theft pretty tricky. I don't know if it was truly a goal of this system to prevent a user at all costs giving someone else access. I mean even with a traditional RSA device a user could give someone their passcode and lend them the RSA device. At least one of Heiko's exemplars has the "physical" factor be software running on a mobile phone. I don't know if it is possible in a Java environment to lock this to a particular phone. It would be possible in a Windows Mobile environment. M. ------------------------------------- Moray McConnachie Head of IS +44 1865 261 600 Oxford Analytica http://www.oxan.com -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:bw...@re...] Sent: 24 October 2008 15:22 To: dev...@li... Subject: Re: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens I must be missing something. :-) I understand the advantages of hardware keys. But the USB stick approach still sounds a lot like putting an encrypted private key on a USB stick. Something I have (usb stick), and something I know (password to decrypt key). Maybe it's because I'm not thinking how I could use this personally. I'm thinking in terms of a corporate wide solution. If I was to implement this at work, I believe I would still need a hardware key to prevent password sharing. The hardware RSA keys cannot be duplicated, and the number on the display is constantly changing. That require employees to have the key in hand when logging in. It also prevents them from making extra copies of the key and giving it out to other people. And hence puts a stop to those people who have the bad habit of sharing their password. I can't see how to accomplish the same thing with software only, on media that can be copied. - BS > There are two things. The USB key is part of a two factor login. > Something you know (username and password) and something you have (the > usb key). You could duplicate the key but you need physical access, > and you can in theory guess the value of that key but that can be as > long as you want. Username and passwords we all know how fragile they > are. The only other factor one can add is something you are > (fingerprint for example). > > Another version of something you have which makes it harder to > duplicate is a single key generator. If you somehow intercept the key > on one login (Tempest? Key Logger?) it will not help you on the next > loggin. You need to have access to the key generator. There are > weaknesses but still stronger than password protected keychain for SSH for example. > > There are variations and some weaken the system to avoid data loss > through loosing the key. > > > Fred Frigerio > Locust USA > > This electronic message transmission contains information from Locust > USA which may be confidential or privileged. The information is > intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. > If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is > prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in > error, please notify us by telephone (305-889-5410) or by reply via > electronic mail immediately. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Smith [mailto:bw...@re...] > Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 7:33 AM > To: dev...@li... > Subject: Re: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens > > I admit that I've never researched this subject, but ... > > Can't software tokens and USB keys easily be copied? > Doesn't that defeat the purpose? > > What's the difference between a USB/software key and just putting your > private key on a USB stick? > > - BS > > >> I found some infos, in case someone else is interested too. >> It's all free and seems to work with software tokens, so a hardware >> token should hopefully work too. >> >> http://www.oiepoie.nl/2008/05/02/free-strong-two-factor-authenticatio >> n -using-one-time-passwords-on-your-mobile-phone/ >> http://www.tri-dsystems.com/documentation/quickstart.html >> http://fbq.hamal.nl/index.php/archives/8#more-8 >> >> -- >> >> Regards >> Heiko Zuerker >> http://www.devil-linux.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > - > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & > win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event > anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > Devil-linux-discuss mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & > win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event > anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > Devil-linux-discuss mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss > -- - BS ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ _______________________________________________ Devil-linux-discuss mailing list Dev...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ _______________________________________________ Devil-linux-discuss mailing list Dev...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss |
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From: Moray M. <mmc...@ox...> - 2008-10-24 14:33:50
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That's true, but the user would have to give someone access to their key and their password. So you are making theft pretty tricky. I don't know if it was truly a goal of this system to prevent a user at all costs giving someone else access. I mean even with a traditional RSA device a user could give someone their passcode and lend them the RSA device. At least one of Heiko's exemplars has the "physical" factor be software running on a mobile phone. I don't know if it is possible in a Java environment to lock this to a particular phone. It would be possible in a Windows Mobile environment. M. ------------------------------------- Moray McConnachie Head of IS +44 1865 261 600 Oxford Analytica http://www.oxan.com -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:bw...@re...] Sent: 24 October 2008 15:22 To: dev...@li... Subject: Re: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens I must be missing something. :-) I understand the advantages of hardware keys. But the USB stick approach still sounds a lot like putting an encrypted private key on a USB stick. Something I have (usb stick), and something I know (password to decrypt key). Maybe it's because I'm not thinking how I could use this personally. I'm thinking in terms of a corporate wide solution. If I was to implement this at work, I believe I would still need a hardware key to prevent password sharing. The hardware RSA keys cannot be duplicated, and the number on the display is constantly changing. That require employees to have the key in hand when logging in. It also prevents them from making extra copies of the key and giving it out to other people. And hence puts a stop to those people who have the bad habit of sharing their password. I can't see how to accomplish the same thing with software only, on media that can be copied. - BS > There are two things. The USB key is part of a two factor login. > Something you know (username and password) and something you have (the > usb key). You could duplicate the key but you need physical access, > and you can in theory guess the value of that key but that can be as > long as you want. Username and passwords we all know how fragile they > are. The only other factor one can add is something you are > (fingerprint for example). > > Another version of something you have which makes it harder to > duplicate is a single key generator. If you somehow intercept the key > on one login (Tempest? Key Logger?) it will not help you on the next > loggin. You need to have access to the key generator. There are > weaknesses but still stronger than password protected keychain for SSH for example. > > There are variations and some weaken the system to avoid data loss > through loosing the key. > > > Fred Frigerio > Locust USA > > This electronic message transmission contains information from Locust > USA which may be confidential or privileged. The information is > intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. > If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is > prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in > error, please notify us by telephone (305-889-5410) or by reply via > electronic mail immediately. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Smith [mailto:bw...@re...] > Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 7:33 AM > To: dev...@li... > Subject: Re: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens > > I admit that I've never researched this subject, but ... > > Can't software tokens and USB keys easily be copied? > Doesn't that defeat the purpose? > > What's the difference between a USB/software key and just putting your > private key on a USB stick? > > - BS > > >> I found some infos, in case someone else is interested too. >> It's all free and seems to work with software tokens, so a hardware >> token should hopefully work too. >> >> http://www.oiepoie.nl/2008/05/02/free-strong-two-factor-authenticatio >> n -using-one-time-passwords-on-your-mobile-phone/ >> http://www.tri-dsystems.com/documentation/quickstart.html >> http://fbq.hamal.nl/index.php/archives/8#more-8 >> >> -- >> >> Regards >> Heiko Zuerker >> http://www.devil-linux.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > - > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & > win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event > anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > Devil-linux-discuss mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & > win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event > anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > Devil-linux-discuss mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss > -- - BS ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ _______________________________________________ Devil-linux-discuss mailing list Dev...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss |
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From: Bruce S. <bw...@re...> - 2008-10-24 14:22:33
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I must be missing something. :-) I understand the advantages of hardware keys. But the USB stick approach still sounds a lot like putting an encrypted private key on a USB stick. Something I have (usb stick), and something I know (password to decrypt key). Maybe it's because I'm not thinking how I could use this personally. I'm thinking in terms of a corporate wide solution. If I was to implement this at work, I believe I would still need a hardware key to prevent password sharing. The hardware RSA keys cannot be duplicated, and the number on the display is constantly changing. That require employees to have the key in hand when logging in. It also prevents them from making extra copies of the key and giving it out to other people. And hence puts a stop to those people who have the bad habit of sharing their password. I can't see how to accomplish the same thing with software only, on media that can be copied. - BS > There are two things. The USB key is part of a two factor login. > Something you know (username and password) and something you have (the > usb key). You could duplicate the key but you need physical access, and > you can in theory guess the value of that key but that can be as long as > you want. Username and passwords we all know how fragile they are. The > only other factor one can add is something you are (fingerprint for > example). > > Another version of something you have which makes it harder to duplicate > is a single key generator. If you somehow intercept the key on one login > (Tempest? Key Logger?) it will not help you on the next loggin. You need > to have access to the key generator. There are weaknesses but still > stronger than password protected keychain for SSH for example. > > There are variations and some weaken the system to avoid data loss > through loosing the key. > > > Fred Frigerio > Locust USA > > This electronic message transmission contains information from Locust > USA which may be confidential or privileged. The information is > intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. If > you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is > prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, > please notify us by telephone (305-889-5410) or by reply via electronic > mail immediately. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Smith [mailto:bw...@re...] > Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 7:33 AM > To: dev...@li... > Subject: Re: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens > > I admit that I've never researched this subject, but ... > > Can't software tokens and USB keys easily be copied? > Doesn't that defeat the purpose? > > What's the difference between a USB/software key and just putting your > private key on a USB stick? > > - BS > > >> I found some infos, in case someone else is interested too. >> It's all free and seems to work with software tokens, so a hardware >> token should hopefully work too. >> >> http://www.oiepoie.nl/2008/05/02/free-strong-two-factor-authentication >> -using-one-time-passwords-on-your-mobile-phone/ >> http://www.tri-dsystems.com/documentation/quickstart.html >> http://fbq.hamal.nl/index.php/archives/8#more-8 >> >> -- >> >> Regards >> Heiko Zuerker >> http://www.devil-linux.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & > win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event > anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > Devil-linux-discuss mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge > Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes > Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > Devil-linux-discuss mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss > -- - BS |
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From: Fred F. <ffr...@lo...> - 2008-10-24 13:54:14
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There are two things. The USB key is part of a two factor login. Something you know (username and password) and something you have (the usb key). You could duplicate the key but you need physical access, and you can in theory guess the value of that key but that can be as long as you want. Username and passwords we all know how fragile they are. The only other factor one can add is something you are (fingerprint for example). Another version of something you have which makes it harder to duplicate is a single key generator. If you somehow intercept the key on one login (Tempest? Key Logger?) it will not help you on the next loggin. You need to have access to the key generator. There are weaknesses but still stronger than password protected keychain for SSH for example. There are variations and some weaken the system to avoid data loss through loosing the key. Fred Frigerio Locust USA This electronic message transmission contains information from Locust USA which may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us by telephone (305-889-5410) or by reply via electronic mail immediately. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:bw...@re...] Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 7:33 AM To: dev...@li... Subject: Re: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens I admit that I've never researched this subject, but ... Can't software tokens and USB keys easily be copied? Doesn't that defeat the purpose? What's the difference between a USB/software key and just putting your private key on a USB stick? - BS > I found some infos, in case someone else is interested too. > It's all free and seems to work with software tokens, so a hardware > token should hopefully work too. > > http://www.oiepoie.nl/2008/05/02/free-strong-two-factor-authentication > -using-one-time-passwords-on-your-mobile-phone/ > http://www.tri-dsystems.com/documentation/quickstart.html > http://fbq.hamal.nl/index.php/archives/8#more-8 > > -- > > Regards > Heiko Zuerker > http://www.devil-linux.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ _______________________________________________ Devil-linux-discuss mailing list Dev...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss |
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From: Moray M. <mmc...@ox...> - 2008-10-24 13:50:59
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>What's the difference between a USB/software key and just putting your private key on a USB stick? Two-factor: "something you have and something you know". Sure you can steal the USB key, but how these things often work is that you enter a passcode which you know into the software or hardware, and it gives you back a one-time key. You can only get a valid one-time key if you know the passcode and if you have the device which matches that passcode. So to steal it you need to steal the password and the device from the user. One of the funniest things I've ever seen in my working life is when a user brought out his credit-card-sized OTP generator and it turned out he had written his passcode in indelible ink on the back :-> DUHH! m. ------------------------------------- Moray McConnachie Head of IS +44 1865 261 600 Oxford Analytica http://www.oxan.com -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:bw...@re...] Sent: 24 October 2008 12:33 To: dev...@li... Subject: Re: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens I admit that I've never researched this subject, but ... Can't software tokens and USB keys easily be copied? Doesn't that defeat the purpose? - BS > I found some infos, in case someone else is interested too. > It's all free and seems to work with software tokens, so a hardware > token should hopefully work too. > > http://www.oiepoie.nl/2008/05/02/free-strong-two-factor-authentication > -using-one-time-passwords-on-your-mobile-phone/ > http://www.tri-dsystems.com/documentation/quickstart.html > http://fbq.hamal.nl/index.php/archives/8#more-8 > > -- > > Regards > Heiko Zuerker > http://www.devil-linux.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ _______________________________________________ Devil-linux-discuss mailing list Dev...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss |
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From: Heiko Z. <he...@zu...> - 2008-10-24 13:36:39
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Quoting Bruce Smith <bw...@re...>: > I admit that I've never researched this subject, but ... > > Can't software tokens and USB keys easily be copied? > Doesn't that defeat the purpose? > > What's the difference between a USB/software key and just putting your > private key on a USB stick? Take a look at this device: http://www.aladdin.com/etoken/devices/pass.aspx It doesn't have a key you have to load anywhere. It calculates a number based on some encryption algorithm and the date/time. You then have to enter this number as your password. As a 2nd factor you can add a PIN number. In order to login somebody would have to have your token (the hardware device) and your PIN. Of course you have to ensure that accounts get locked out after x invalid tries, because these devices only display a 6 digit numerical code. -- Regards Heiko Zuerker http://www.devil-linux.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. |
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From: Bruce S. <bw...@re...> - 2008-10-24 12:40:19
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I admit that I've never researched this subject, but ... Can't software tokens and USB keys easily be copied? Doesn't that defeat the purpose? What's the difference between a USB/software key and just putting your private key on a USB stick? - BS > I found some infos, in case someone else is interested too. > It's all free and seems to work with software tokens, so a hardware > token should hopefully work too. > > http://www.oiepoie.nl/2008/05/02/free-strong-two-factor-authentication-using-one-time-passwords-on-your-mobile-phone/ > http://www.tri-dsystems.com/documentation/quickstart.html > http://fbq.hamal.nl/index.php/archives/8#more-8 > > -- > > Regards > Heiko Zuerker > http://www.devil-linux.org |
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From: Heiko Z. <he...@zu...> - 2008-10-24 02:03:52
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I found some infos, in case someone else is interested too. It's all free and seems to work with software tokens, so a hardware token should hopefully work too. http://www.oiepoie.nl/2008/05/02/free-strong-two-factor-authentication-using-one-time-passwords-on-your-mobile-phone/ http://www.tri-dsystems.com/documentation/quickstart.html http://fbq.hamal.nl/index.php/archives/8#more-8 -- Regards Heiko Zuerker http://www.devil-linux.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. |
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From: Heiko Z. <he...@zu...> - 2008-10-24 00:35:19
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Quoting Serge Leschinsky <fi...@in...>: > Hi, > > Heiko Zuerker wrote: >> Hey, >> >> I want to start using hard tokens (OTP, keyfob) for certain tasks >> (i.e. login to firewall, secured web portal, etc.). >> >> Does anyone know a free (maybe as in GPL?) or cheap solution? Since >> it's for personal use I don't see myself spending $1000... >> >> Depending how it's implemented we could even add it to DL. >> > > http://www.opensc-project.org/ > > I worked with Alladin e-tokens (http://www.ealaddin.com/). > It works :-) Not sure about the price, it was not personal project. I was hoping not to have a cert on a USB key. Worst case scenario I'll go for that. I was hoping to use a device like this: http://www.aladdin.com/etoken/devices/pass.aspx -- Regards Heiko Zuerker http://www.devil-linux.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. |
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From: Heiko Z. <he...@zu...> - 2008-10-24 00:23:31
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Quoting Fred Frigerio <ffr...@lo...>: > I thought you could do that with a token on a USB key and some PAM > module. I really remember something like that. > http://usbauth.delta-xi.net/doku.php is probably a good start. I never > used it but almost did in my Gentoo box. I want to avoid having to plug in a USB device. My hope is to have a solution which allows me to connect from any computer to my HTTP or SSH servers, not having to worry about keyboard loggers or any crap like that. -- Regards Heiko Zuerker http://www.devil-linux.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. |
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From: Fred F. <ffr...@lo...> - 2008-10-23 22:26:46
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I thought you could do that with a token on a USB key and some PAM module. I really remember something like that. http://usbauth.delta-xi.net/doku.php is probably a good start. I never used it but almost did in my Gentoo box. Fred Frigerio Locust USA This electronic message transmission contains information from Locust USA which may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us by telephone (305-889-5410) or by reply via electronic mail immediately. -----Original Message----- From: Heiko Zuerker [mailto:he...@zu...] Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 11:46 AM To: Devil-Linux Discuss Mailinglist Subject: [Devil-Linux-discuss] hard tokens Hey, I want to start using hard tokens (OTP, keyfob) for certain tasks (i.e. login to firewall, secured web portal, etc.). Does anyone know a free (maybe as in GPL?) or cheap solution? Since it's for personal use I don't see myself spending $1000... Depending how it's implemented we could even add it to DL. -- Regards Heiko Zuerker http://www.devil-linux.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ _______________________________________________ Devil-linux-discuss mailing list Dev...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss |
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From: Serge L. <fi...@in...> - 2008-10-23 22:09:58
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Hi, Heiko Zuerker wrote: > Hey, > > I want to start using hard tokens (OTP, keyfob) for certain tasks > (i.e. login to firewall, secured web portal, etc.). > > Does anyone know a free (maybe as in GPL?) or cheap solution? Since > it's for personal use I don't see myself spending $1000... > > Depending how it's implemented we could even add it to DL. > http://www.opensc-project.org/ I worked with Alladin e-tokens (http://www.ealaddin.com/). It works :-) Not sure about the price, it was not personal project. -- Serge |
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From: Heiko Z. <he...@zu...> - 2008-10-23 20:46:07
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Hey, I want to start using hard tokens (OTP, keyfob) for certain tasks (i.e. login to firewall, secured web portal, etc.). Does anyone know a free (maybe as in GPL?) or cheap solution? Since it's for personal use I don't see myself spending $1000... Depending how it's implemented we could even add it to DL. -- Regards Heiko Zuerker http://www.devil-linux.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. |
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From: Heiko Z. <he...@zu...> - 2008-10-23 20:11:12
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Quoting DL mail <mai...@gm...>: > Hello, > > Because of a new hardware with S-ATA Cdrom, yesterday I tried for the first time the devil-linux-1.3.6-2008-09-10 with one of my syslog server. > > The only thing I miss for the moment is the pam library for radius: pam_radius_auth.so. > > Could you add it in the next release? > > Thanks for your great job. I took a quick look at the build system and the library should be on the CD, but it's missing for some reason. No idea why. Not sure when I'll have time to look at it. -- Regards Heiko Zuerker http://www.devil-linux.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. |
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From: Heiko Z. <he...@zu...> - 2008-10-23 16:15:51
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It's on CVS now and on the FTP Server (thanks Serge). You can download and compile it. A pre-compiled version is not yet available. Heiko Quoting warptrosse <war...@gm...>: > Hi, this new version is on some kind of svn?... can i have access to it... for test it? > > thx > > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 5:16 PM, Serge Leschinsky <fi...@in...> wrote: > Hello, > > > warptrosse wrote: > > > I'm trying to put *devil-linux* in a virtual hard-disk... using > > *install-on-usb*.... but It gives me folllowing error: > > > > ============================== > > ======================================================= > > mke2fs 1.40.8 (13-Mar-2008) > > Warning: 256-byte inodes not usable on older systems > > tune2fs 1.40.8 (13-Mar-2008) > > Setting maximal mount count to -1 > > copying files > > copying image of CD in /dev/ide/host0/bus1/target0/lun0/cd to device > > mounted on ./tmp-install2usb/disk-mnt/bootcd.iso > > /sbin/install-on-usb: line 28: 804 Bus error nice dd bd=$bs > > count=$nsectors if=$1 of=$2 > > Install failed! > > syncing and unmounting (this could take a while) > > ================================================================ > > For me it looks like you have a problem with hardware paravirtualization... "Bus > error"... > > > I'll try to change the *inodes* size to *128*... in *mke2fs* line of > > *install-on-usb* script (mke2fs -I 128 <disk>).... > > > It's already done. See lines 511-513 of install-on-usb: > > if echo $FORMAT | grep ext > /dev/null; then > local OPTION="-I 128" > fi > > > > I'm using a VM with a *4gb* virtual *hard-disk* (/dev/hda) and an ide > > *cd-rom* (/dev/hdc).... maybe the *hard-disk* must be *sata*.... > > The new version of DL (with kernel 2.6.26.6) will be availible soon. Probably it > will be better with KVM than 2.6.25.x > > -- > Serge > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge > Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes > Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > Devil-linux-discuss mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss -- WARPTROSSE {The knowledge of a man belongs to all the humanity} -- Regards Heiko Zuerker http://www.devil-linux.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. |
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From: warptrosse <war...@gm...> - 2008-10-23 13:46:14
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Hi, this new version is on some kind of svn?... can i have access to it... for test it? thx On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 5:16 PM, Serge Leschinsky <fi...@in...>wrote: > Hello, > > warptrosse wrote: > > > I'm trying to put *devil-linux* in a virtual hard-disk... using > > *install-on-usb*.... but It gives me folllowing error: > > > > ============================== > > ======================================================= > > mke2fs 1.40.8 (13-Mar-2008) > > Warning: 256-byte inodes not usable on older systems > > tune2fs 1.40.8 (13-Mar-2008) > > Setting maximal mount count to -1 > > copying files > > copying image of CD in /dev/ide/host0/bus1/target0/lun0/cd to device > > mounted on ./tmp-install2usb/disk-mnt/bootcd.iso > > /sbin/install-on-usb: line 28: 804 Bus error nice dd bd=$bs > > count=$nsectors if=$1 of=$2 > > Install failed! > > syncing and unmounting (this could take a while) > > ================================================================ > > For me it looks like you have a problem with hardware paravirtualization... > "Bus > error"... > > > > > I'll try to change the *inodes* size to *128*... in *mke2fs* line of > > *install-on-usb* script (mke2fs -I 128 <disk>).... > > > It's already done. See lines 511-513 of install-on-usb: > > if echo $FORMAT | grep ext > /dev/null; then > local OPTION="-I 128" > fi > > > I'm using a VM with a *4gb* virtual *hard-disk* (/dev/hda) and an ide > > *cd-rom* (/dev/hdc).... maybe the *hard-disk* must be *sata*.... > > The new version of DL (with kernel 2.6.26.6) will be availible soon. > Probably it > will be better with KVM than 2.6.25.x > > -- > Serge > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's > challenge > Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great > prizes > Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world > http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > Devil-linux-discuss mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss > -- WARPTROSSE {The knowledge of a man belongs to all the humanity} |
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From: DL m. <mai...@gm...> - 2008-10-23 11:12:03
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Hello, Because of a new hardware with S-ATA Cdrom, yesterday I tried for the first time the devil-linux-1.3.6-2008-09-10 with one of my syslog server. The only thing I miss for the moment is the pam library for radius: pam_radius_auth.so. Could you add it in the next release? Thanks for your great job. |
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From: Heiko Z. <he...@zu...> - 2008-10-22 15:52:43
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Quoting Peter Jannesen <P.J...@vi...>: >> > I have the bad luck that the other side of one of my >> ipsec-tunnels is >> > using keep a live which result in 4 statistics log messages >> every 30 >> > seconds per tunnel.These message are generated because of the >> > '--enable-stats' option in the build script. >> > Is it posible to remove this option from then build proces? >> >> I personally don't use IPSec, so I'm not sure how useful this >> parameter is. >> Does anybody know if we need it in general or not? Any opinions? > > The stats message are switch on by adding then '--enable-stats' to the > ./configure for ipsec-tools. There is no runtime option to switch the > message off. Since nobody complained about it, I'm leaning towards turning it off as Peter requested. -- Regards Heiko Zuerker http://www.devil-linux.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. |
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