Problem found, when new game 'Dragon's Lair' asks for next REU file
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#164 Problem found, when new game 'Dragon's Lair' asks for next REU file
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nobody
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C64
1 hour ago
7 days ago
Anonymous
No
I found a problem in a new software. Yesterday this interesting new 'Dragon's Lair' game was released:
http://csdb.dk/release/?id=263962
It's based on a Laser-Disc Arcade game from 1983 and is technically very interesting, especially in this new C64 version. Since this version plays a movie, utilizing the C64's REU technology and requires the user, to react to specific situations in this movie, by using a game-controller (or the keyboard). By pressing certain buttons or directions, the course of the game can be influenced by the user, just like it was in the original Arcade game back then. The C64 version consists of a total of 17 REU files, each 16 MB in size, all of which are used during gameplay and there are three versions of the game available. One for 6581 SID users, one for 8580 SID users and one for FGPA users.
Initially, the game starts normally in Denise at first, using the file 'DrL-00-8580.reu' (assuming the 8580 SID version is used) and the user must complete the first two game sequences. After the second sequence, the game requests the next REU file, named 'DrL-01-8580.reu' and once inserted, pressing a joystick-button should allow the user, to continue playing.
This works in VICE (tested with GTK-VICE V3.7) and the game then proceeds to the next game-sequence, when a button on the controller is pressed. In Denise however, the game hangs at that point, remaining stuck on the screen, that requests the new REU-file. I found out, that the exact same problem occurs in the HOXS emulator too, by the way. So far, it only seems to works in VICE, to continue the game at this point.
Since this is the first C64 software to date, that requires multiple REU files, I suspect, the issue could be, that Denise fails to detect the next inserted REU-file, unless a new prg starter-program is used for it. But the game should continue from this point on, by only inserting a new REU-file and there is not new starter prg, while in gameplay. For this game, the emulator ought to recognize a new inserted REU-file, without needing a new starter prg, by only inserting it. This should be fixable, I am sure.
And Denise would fit very good for this game, because Denise, unlike the other mentioned emulators, allows four REU-files to be inserted in different slots at the same time and if there would be a "switch REU-slot" hotkey, then it would be perfect for this game, because REU-files could be switched very quickly in the gameplay, by only pressing a hotkey then. Also therefore, I hope that this problem could be fixed.
Regards,
Andy
Discussion
Anonymous
Something else just occurred to me, that could make sense here. Denise can handle compressed (zipped) files, when it comes to d64, prg, adf, etc. Would that be technically feasible for REU-files as well? At the moment, the emulator can not handle a zipped REU-file. But if so, such files would take up far less storage space on the PC, because a compression makes them alot smaller. This, of course, wouldn't just apply to this game, but also to alot of REU movies, which are out there. But for this specific game here, it would make a really huge difference in size, given that it consists of 17 REU and each has 16MB files. When compressed, each file would have around 4MB only , in this case.
Regards,
Andy
nightly:
REU and GeoRam files can now be switched without a reset.
file related suggestions require time-consuming changes. Perhaps later, when there is more software that supports multiple REU files.
Thanks for the fast fix, will try it out on this weekend. Was a hotkey for switching REU slots also already integrated?
Because of the support for zip REU files. Okay, better later than never. It makes sense, because it really saves a lot of space, especially with REU files, much more than with any other C64 file-type.
Okay, I couldn't wait and tested it today, with the newest nightly and switching the REU files in the gameplay works now, but only, if you insert the new REU file into the same slot. Great for the handling here would be, if it also work, to populate all four slots with the first four REU files at the beginning and then simply click on the next slot, when the game requests the next file and that doesn't work yet and the REU file isn't recognized in that case.
The reason, why this would be beneficial is, that it allows for faster file switching in the gameplay, once the user had inserted the first four files in the four slots at the beginning. Especially, if a new hotkey for this would be integrated. That would be perfect for gameplay in games like this and I suspect, that more new games might come along, that work with multiple REU-files and could benefit from such functionality. You should take advantage of the benefit, Denise offers the users, by allowing multiple REU files to be inserted into multiple slots. It's ideally suited for a hotkey.
Regards,
Andy
If I interpret the game's readme correctly, the Ultimate seems to automatically detect the individual REU images. That would certainly be a better approach than modifying Denise's slot system to allow a single program to use multiple slots. Such a modification would be very time-consuming and confusing for the user, given that in other cases, each slot corresponds to a separate program.
I prefer to rely on the option of quickly selecting a different image from the "recent" list here. Incidentally, Dragons Lair ZIP file can now be opened in Denise. Unfortunately, using ZIP contents directly from the "recent" list is impractical. I will be reworking that soon.
Nice, that Denise can open the zip-file of the game now.
To the other point, with the recent list. One could do that, but the user would have to have loaded all those files at least once beforehand, for them to even appear in the "recently used files" list and from a usability standpoint, that wouldn't be good handling either, because you can not switch through this files with a hotkey.
However, I have another idea, if you don't like that "switch slot" suggestion (something I would have considered a good idea, though, because then the large number of slots in Denise would have actually made sense, because otherwise, you hardly ever use them). But here's another suggestion, maybe this could be realized technically?
Denise can recognize a specific program (a game in this case) by its checksum, so "Dragon's Lair" could be identified, when inserted. Denise could then do the following (but only for this specific game). The disk-changer buttons (next disk/previous disk) would cycle through the REU files (based on their filenames) then, instead of switching between d64 disk-sides. Naturally, this would apply only to that specific game, once identified. That would be the ideal way, to handle the multiple REU files in this game, because it would be like in a normal multi-disk game, only with the difference, that here the next REU file is loaded, when the user had pressed the hotkey. This would be perfect handling and if another multi REU game would be released sometime, then also this one could be identified. There certainly won't ever be many games like this released (let's say a handful in the end) and Denise can easily be made to recognize these few.
What you think? In my eyes, that would be a good solution. A helptext, for example in the disk-changer can give a hint to the users, that the game "Dragon's Lair" constitutes an exception here, where the REU files can be passed through by pressing the "next disk" and "previous disk" hotkeys.
Regards,
Andy
Or, here are two alternative suggestions more.
(1)
The "C64/software/REU" menu would be expanded, to include a few more slots than four (e.g. eight, like in the EasyFlash menu) and a new click-option would be added in this menu, labeled for example: "Use all slots for multi-REU software."
When this click-option is enabled, the functionality from my original proposal (loading multiple REU files for the game from multiple slots) would work. And if this click-option is deactivaed, the slots would behave as they currently do. And a help-text would be added, to this new click-option that explains: "For multi-REU games like "Dragon's Lair", allowing to cycle through all the REU files in the slots, using a hotkeys".
To support this, two new hotkeys then would be added, named "Next REU file" and "Previous REU file."
And I actually have a third, much easier alternative too.
(2)
This one is the simplest of all, requiring the fewest changes. Simply these two mentioned new Hotkeys would be implemented ("Next REU File" and "Previous REU File") and Denise must be able, to identify the game "Dragons Lair". Once the game is identified, these two new REU hotkeys would activate, allowing the user, to cycle through the REU files located in the same folder as the "Dragon's Lair" prg file. This way, no changes to the Denise menus would be needed, aside from adding the two new hotkeys, and that would be sufficient and also guarantee perfect control of the REU files in this game.
Every of this solutions would allow better handling for this game, than the suggestion with the recent file list.
Regards,
Andreas
Regardless of the REU or this game, specific files from an archive are now (latest nightly) also saved in the "recent" list. This is particularly helpful for zipped Amiga games and, of course, for multiple REU images.
I'll take a look at how the Ultimate automatically switches the REU files.
Last edit: PiCiJi 3 days ago
Ah okay, all files from a zip-archiv will automatically listed in the "recent files" list. This could possibly be an alternativ. Normally, having a possibility, to switch through multiple REU-files of a game in the same way, that Denise can switch between multiple disk-images of a multi-disk game, would habe been a very nice handling, while playing. But I will test the new version and see, how good it works, in next days. I'll be in touch again then.
When I first suggested, that Denise could support zipped REU-files, I hadn't actually envisioned a single ZIP-archive containing multiple files. I was thinking more along the lines of having each single REU-file zipped individually and located in the same folder. But the way it’s implemented now, could work just as well.
In any case, supporting zipped REU fiels, saves a huge amount of space. I have over a hundred C64 REU-movies, here on my PC harddrive, taking up more than 1,7 GigaByte. Compressed, they take up around 400 MB, I guess (already packed a few of them). Compression makes a massive difference, especially with this REU files. I wonder, why HOXS and VICE don't support zipped REU-files, but only unpacked ones.
Regards,
Andy
Okay, I’ve just given the newest nightly a try, in the last 30 minutes. But the workflow for this game isn't quite clear to me here now, when the archive is packed.
Where exactly do I need to load the zipped "Dragon's Lair" folder now, so that all the REU files inside it, appear in the "recent files" list? I tried it by inserting the zip-file in the REU-menu, but the REU files were not listed in "recent files". Then I tried it with "Load Software," but also then, the 17 REU files didn't show up in the recent list.
And a second question. Even if they would appear there, isn't it the case, that selecting a file from this "recent files" list, triggers an emulator reset, since those files were always autostarted? But, while in the gameplay of the game, a reset would be bad. Somehow, it’s unclear how to proceed here, because now there’s just a single folder containing all the files.
That actually just unnecessarily complicates the matter, isn't it. Wouldn't it be much easier, to implement the third suggestion I made, the one I marked as (2) above? That would be far simpler to manage for the users and would also offer a better handling in the gameplay, when switching the REU files in the end, because a simple hotkey can be used for this, as users of Denise are accustomed to, with multidisk games . For this to work, the user simply must pack every single REU file to a single zip-file and all the files, just it was before when the game is unpacked, must be in the same folder.
Regards,
Andy
By the way, because I forgot to mention. It’s very good, that zipped REU files are working now, by the way. I tested it with some of my REU movies and it works perfectly. That way, the users save a lot of harddrive space now. Everything's fine there.
It’s just that the handling for this one specific new game, which consists of multiple REU files, is still too complicated and not really clear, hence my suggestion (2). Only two new hotkeys would visibly be needed in the menu for that, nothing else and Denise must identify the "Dragon's Lair" game, which should not be a problem.
Regards,
Andreas
Certain files should not appear in the general "Recent" list—precisely because of the auto-start feature. I am changing this for REU or GeoRAM images.
To switch REU images, the "Recent" list in the software menu should be used; auto-start is not triggered there.
But where is the advantage in terms of usability then? Going into the REU menu and selecting a different file from the "recent" list there, takes about the same amount of time, as simply loading a new file from the same folder (the old-fashioned way) there, in this menu. It doesn't really offer a significant handling advantage (unlike a hotkey would).
Honestly, I don't know what technical arguments there are, against my proposal (2). It would require almost no changes to the Denise menu, just two new hotkeys for switching the REU files and anyone who doesn't want to use these keys, simply doesn't have to assign them. Those who do assign them, would enjoy great handling in the gameplay, when switching REU files in "Dragon's Lair". And I imagine future multi-REU games.
But to be true, I don't care anymore, because in another thread here, some minutes ago, I read a post, in which was mentioned, that the older icons in the Denise menu have been removed. To be honest, I hadn't even noticed that myself so far, because I had only briefly loaded a single game (Dragons Lair) in the latest nightly build, before closing it again after that. But reading about it made me notice, and I was quite shocked, because those icons are missing for me too, since I use Windows 7 in XP view too.
This makes the newer Denise nightlies practically totally unattractive for me, because it just looks awful now, so I’m going to stick permanently with the last nightly before this, in the future. Consequently, there’s no point in me anymore, for submitting bugreports, suggestions, uploading the emu to the CSDB, sharing emulator tips, or engaging online anymore, for Denise (like it did alot of years now). But if things are being handled in such a way, that longtime users are being driven away now, without any need for it, then consequences have to be drawn. (schade für die hunderten Stunden, die auch ich, in Denise investiert habe, in verschiedenster Form, über die letzten Jahre).
For AGA Amiga games, I’ll just stick with WinUAE, and that’s it. Don't care anymore, how "Dragon's Lair" is handled.
Regards
Andreas
Well, I wrote that the change generally makes it possible to remember archive contents in the "Recent" list. If you don't want to unpack the archive, this allows you to mount the next REU image much faster than constantly opening the file dialog for the same file.
I’m not adding a hotkey for this game. The controls are unusual, and the emulator is already becoming cluttered with unintuitive functions.
As I said, I’m trying to replicate the behavior of the Ultimate. That way, manual mounting shouldn't be necessary anymore.
That's a shame; I thought you had a new computer. As long as you stick with XP, you won't get any more enjoyment out of Denise.
The reason developers eventually abandon old operating systems is simply that the workload becomes too great. After all, development moves forward, and this constant evolution must be taken into account. This often means that improvements offer advantages on newer architectures while creating disadvantages on older ones. To avoid losing track of things, it is necessary to discard legacy elements from time to time. XP, in particular, requires handling certain things completely differently compared to Windows 7, 10, or 11; for instance, XP only supports old ICO files for menu icons. Consequently, creating a new icon for XP entails extra work.
It is surely only a matter of time before something major breaks in XP. Then we won't need to talk about icons anymore.
It is very helpful when you find bugs in Denise; it improves the software's quality and saves me from having to test everything myself. However, if that implies I should tailor Denise to your old XP machine just to keep you happy, then that is a price I am not willing to pay.
If you care about Denise, upgrade your computer. Otherwise, you should be consistent and look for alternatives. It is not too much to ask to replace XP in 2026.
I won't be engaging in discussions like this in the future; I simply don't have the energy for it.