Re: [Audacity-quality] How to cut / delete one label without moving others

[Peter S. <pet...@gm...>]

Actually now I am very much in favour of reverting the nomenclature
of the 2.2.0 menu item from Remove > Audio back to Remove > Special.

With a project that has an audio track, a MIDI Note track and a label track
the current Edit > Remove Audio can opreate on any any mixture of selections
from among those three tracks - and clearly label tracks are not audio and
we
know that MIDI is not audio.

So having tested this more today I no longer think that we should restrict
it
to work only on audio - it is far too useful as it is (once we get the
nomenclature
riight) - so I formally withdraw that part of my earlier suggestions.

Reverting to Remove > Special would have the advantage of being famiiar to
users of 2.1.3 and earlier.


This has been an excellent last-minute catch by Steve, one that was hard to
spot
without a bit of digging and "testing around".

I strongly feel that we really must address this (this nomenclature
reversion and
Bug1673 that I just logged) as part of our menu changes for  2.2.0.
http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1673
<http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1673>

We will be letting ourselves down if we let this pass through like this.

Further replies in-line ...

Peter

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 12:40 PM, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
wrote:

> On 1 July 2017 at 11:36, Peter Sampson <pet...@gm...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 8:56 PM, Steve the Fiddle <
> ste...@gm...>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On 30 June 2017 at 19:19, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote:
> >> > Steve wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> In Audacity 2.1.3, "Edit > Remove Audio" was called "Edit > Remove
> >> >> Special".
> >> >> Unless someone has a better idea, I suggest that we go back to the
> >> >> 2.1.3 nomenclature for this sub-menu, because "Remove Audio" is
> >> >> misleading / wrong, and we remove the wavetrack flag for "Split
> >> >> Delete".
> >>
> >> This will have some impact on the manual.
> >> Any objections to me doing this, or any better ideas?
> >
> >
> > I have no fundamental objection - but I don't really think it helps the
> > use case you posited at the start of this thread of a user trying to
> figure
> > out how to delete labels or part of a label track (with and without
> moving
> > subsequent labels.
>
> I think it helps "a bit" because they want to delete a label without
> other labels moving, so they want  some 'special' kind of delete that
> is a bit different from the normal delete function.
>

I now think it helps more tha a "bit"

Nor do I think it should be restricted to work only on audio.

See my top-posting.


>
> It's a bit like if you're looking for tea bags in an unfamiliar
> kitchen. You are less likely to look in the tin that is labelled
> "coffee" than in the tin that has no label.
>

And as you know I'm a great believer in "does what it says on the tin" as
part of GUI design



>
> >
> >
> > So I think it would be much better to:
> >
> > a) Leave Edit > Remove Audio  with its current nomenclature
> >
> > b) Restrict it to work only on audio (and maybe MIDI Note tracks?)
>
> MIDI is not audio. We need to be always very clear about that as we
> know that users frequently confuse the two.
>
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the "restriction". Some use
> cases require cutting from all track types.
>

I now formally withdraw that part of my previous suggestion - it should
operate just the way it does now - but with clearer nomenclature.

It is very useful that it can operate on label tracks (and MIDI Note tracks)
in addition and combined with audio tracks.


>
> >
> > c) Spil the the current Edit > Labels into two with
> > Edit > Labels
> > Edit > Labelled Audio
>
> I think we must do that. Editing labelled audio is clearly not editing
> labels. I agree that it is very confusing to have these completely
> different types of commands in the same sub-menu.
>

+1

glad you agree


>
> Steve
>
>
> > to remove the confusion
> >
> > d) Extend Edit >Labels to allow for Delete/Cut/Split Cut/Split Delete
> > editing
> >
> > That way with d) the user has a clearer idea of where to go to
> edit/delete
> > selected labels.
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > +1. Fixes the problem and saves arguing for now about some other
> >> > rearrangement of Edit Menu.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Gale
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 30 June 2017 at 17:42, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> On 30 June 2017 at 17:30, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...>
> wrote:
> >> >>> On 30 June 2017 at 15:26, Steve the Fiddle <
> ste...@gm...>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>> This fule nose that I can delete the selected LABEL without moving
> >> >>>> others with:
> >> >>>> "Edit menu > Remove AUDIO > Split Cut"
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> A couple of things here:
> >> >>>> 1) Unexpected that to remove a "label" you have to go into the
> remove
> >> >>>> "audio" sub-menu.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I guess it's a consequence of the grouping decision that was made.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> The problem is where to put the command for deletion or cut that
> >> >>> does not affect the following labels. The user was "expecting this
> to
> >> >>> be in the context menu of any marker within the selection". I think
> >> >>> I would say it should be in the context menu of the region drawn in
> >> >>> the label track.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> 2) Why is "Split Delete" greyed out and "Split Cut" not greyed out?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> No-one answered that on feedback@. It is easily fixed, I still see
> no
> >> >>> reason not to fix it.
> >> >>
> >> >> I have an answer, but it's not a good one, hence this thread.
> >> >>
> >> >> By rights, the "Split Cut" command should also be greyed out because
> >> >> it is a sub-menu item of "Edit > Remove Audio". If not audio is
> >> >> selected (including no "auto select") then no audio can be deleted,
> so
> >> >> the command should be greyed out.
> >> >>
> >> >> However, the "Split Cut / Delete" commands should not be sub-menu
> >> >> items of "Remove Audio" because the commands are not specific to
> audio
> >> >> tracks. They also operate on Label and Note tracks.
> >> >>
> >> >> In Audacity 2.1.3, "Edit > Remove Audio" was called "Edit > Remove
> >> >> Special".
> >> >> Unless someone has a better idea, I suggest that we go back to the
> >> >> 2.1.3 nomenclature for this sub-menu, because "Remove Audio" is
> >> >> misleading / wrong, and we remove the wavetrack flag for "Split
> >> >> Delete".
> >> >>
> >> >> Steve
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Gale
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On 30 June 2017 at 15:17, Peter Sampson
> >> >>>> <pet...@gm...> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Peter Sampson
> >> >>>>> <pet...@gm...> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> The basic question here implies that you want to delete or cut a
> >> >>>>>> selected
> >> >>>>>> refgion of a label track without moving the rest of the labels.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> The shortcut Ctl+Alt+K (Split Delete) use to do that when you
> had a
> >> >>>>>> single
> >> >>>>>> or mutiple labels selected in a time range in a label track
> (only).
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> This shortcut has not worked in many a long time now - I used to
> >> >>>>>> use it a
> >> >>>>>> lot
> >> >>>>>> but just kinda forgot about it ...
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> "As any fule kno" the "correct" way to delete a label is to
> >> >>>>>> right-click on
> >> >>>>>> the label
> >> >>>>>> and use the dropdown menu delete command that Leland introduced
> >> >>>>>> overnight
> >> >>>>>> for us at AU14.   Though how "discoverable" this is, is somewhat
> >> >>>>>> debatable.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> The previous way to delete a label was to use the backspace or
> >> >>>>>> delete key
> >> >>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>> delete all  the characters in the label one by one (Backspace or
> >> >>>>>> Delete
> >> >>>>>> keys) or
> >> >>>>>> all at once (Delete key only) and then use one final backspace
> >> >>>>>> todelete
> >> >>>>>> the label.
> >> >>>>>> This method does still work though I'm not sure why, now that we
> >> >>>>>> have
> >> >>>>>> Leland's
> >> >>>>>> (much quicker and easier) dropdown delete.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Obviously text deletion in the label should be allowed but Iwould
> >> >>>>>> now not
> >> >>>>>> expect
> >> >>>>>> Delete or Backspace in an empty label to delete the label (for a
> >> >>>>>> start it
> >> >>>>>> is too easy
> >> >>>>>> to think that all you are doing is using Backspace to remove all
> >> >>>>>> the text
> >> >>>>>> and then
> >> >>>>>> the label has disappeared into thin air.  You may not have liked
> >> >>>>>> the text
> >> >>>>>> - BUT you
> >> >>>>>> may have verey carefully marked that point in the audio with the
> >> >>>>>> label and
> >> >>>>>> really
> >> >>>>>> do not want to lose that position.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> There is a *very* important difference between the to methods:
> >> >>>>>> a) dropdown>Delete:  this can be reverse with the Undo
> >> >>>>>> b) backspace delete of label charaters or label does not respond
> to
> >> >>>>>> Undo
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> The Undo here in b) seems to work fine on Mac
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> I'm now getting odd results on W10 with b) when a single Undo
> >> >>>>> restores the
> >> >>>>> labe
> >> >>>>> and all its text AND makes a duplicate copy of the label.  :-//
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Peter
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> More later I'm off to do some testing (and reading of the Manual)
> >> >>>>>> on the
> >> >>>>>> Edit>Labels submenu
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >> >>>>>> Peter.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Steve the Fiddle
> >> >>>>>> <ste...@gm...> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On 30 June 2017 at 10:39, James Crook <cr...@in...> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> > On 6/30/2017 9:26 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> >>
> >> >>>>>>> >> Prompted by a post to feedback@
> >> >>>>>>> >>
> >> >>>>>>> >> 1) Create a project with multiple labels in a label track.
> >> >>>>>>> >> 2) Select the first label
> >> >>>>>>> >> 3) Open the "Edit" menu and locate the menu command that will
> >> >>>>>>> >> cut /
> >> >>>>>>> >> delete the label without moving other labels.
> >> >>>>>>> >>
> >> >>>>>>> >> Try to look at this as if a new user. There are multiple
> >> >>>>>>> >> problems.
> >> >>>>>>> >
> >> >>>>>>> > Not getting it.
> >> >>>>>>> > Remove worked fine for me.  What is the problem?
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> In the above, I want to remove a label.
> >> >>>>>>> Obvious place to look is in the Edit menu, so let's search the
> >> >>>>>>> Edit menu:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Undo
> >> >>>>>>> Redo
> >> >>>>>>> Cut -> No. This moves labels that occur later in the track.
> >> >>>>>>> Delete -> No. This moves labels that occur later in the track.
> >> >>>>>>> Copy
> >> >>>>>>> Paste
> >> >>>>>>> Duplicate
> >> >>>>>>> Remove Audio
> >> >>>>>>> Clip Boundaries ? -> No, nothing here.
> >> >>>>>>> Labels ->
> >> >>>>>>>  -> Edit Labels -> Yes, this can do it, but not what I was
> looking
> >> >>>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>>  -> Add Label at Selection
> >> >>>>>>>  -> Add Label at Playback Position
> >> >>>>>>>  -> Paste Text to New Label
> >> >>>>>>>  -> Cut -> No. This cuts audio.
> >> >>>>>>>  -> Delete -> No. This deletes audio.
> >> >>>>>>>  -> Split Cut -> No. This deletes audio.
> >> >>>>>>>  -> Split Delete -> No. This deletes audio.
> >> >>>>>>>  -> Silence Audio
> >> >>>>>>>  -> Copy
> >> >>>>>>>  -> Split -> No.
> >> >>>>>>>  -> Join
> >> >>>>>>>  -> Detach at Silences
> >> >>>>>>>  -> Type to Create Labels (On/Off)
> >> >>>>>>> Metadata
> >> >>>>>>> Preferences
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Search failed, command not found :-(
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Also note:
> >> >>>>>>> "Edit > Labels > Cut"
> >> >>>>>>> Who would guess that this will cut audio and not the label?
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Steve
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> >
> >> >>>>>>> > --James.
> >> >>>>>>> >
> >> >>>>>>> >
> >> >>>>>>> >>
> >> >>>>>>> >> Steve
> >> >>>>>>> >
> >> >>>>>>> >
> >> >>>>>>> >
> >> >>>>>>> >
> >> >>>>>>> >
> >> >>>>>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
>