Re: [Audacity-quality] WDM/KS low latency

[Gale A. <ga...@au...>]

Thanks for testing, Peter. 

I'm fairly sure the "Exclusive" Mode settings in Windows won't
have any effect on WDM/KS - Windows already regards it as 
"exclusive".

Recording or playback has greyed out Device Toolbar since 1.3.13.

One of the problems with WASAPI is that the Audacity input slider 
is disabled. For me that's the case also with WDM/KS when selecting
built-in stereo mix (but not the other built-in inputs) and when 
selecting any input from my Trust USB Sound Card. For MME and WDS 
I can always use the Audacity input slider.  

So is the Audacity input slider greyed out for you when selecting all 
or any inputs under WDM/KS, even if you are not recording?  

The Dublin stream seems to have very different volume levels when
connecting at different times. The stream opens in VLC for me but if
I save the playlist file I can open it in Windows Media Player. 

When the stream is at a low level I can record it at an acceptable 
level by turning up the output level and turning up the input level
of stereo mix. But I agree the input level seems to be set lower than
that achievable under MME and WDS, whatever source is selected.  

WASAPI loopback recording has the same problem of insufficient
level, but this seems less of a problem with other WASAPI inputs. 

I don't get error opening when recording with software playthrough
(built-in device or USB sound card). Does using Edirol's own drivers
improve that problem for you? 
 


Gale 


| From Peter Sampson <pet...@ya...> 
| Mon, 19 Aug 2013 07:42:32 -0700 (PDT)
| Subject: [Audacity-quality] WDM/KS low latency
> Use Case #2
>  
> Recording from TT=>ART DJ-Pre11=>Edirol UA-1EX=>USB
> Host: WDM/KS
> Output: Speakers (Realtek HD Audio output)
> Input: IN(IN(UA-1EX))
> Channels: 2 (Stereo) Input Channels
> both the input and output devices with the "exclusive" settings
> as prescribed in the Audacity Manual.
> Software Playthrough checked "on"
>  
> This yields the "error opening sound device ..." message
>  
> If I uncheck Software Playthrough it records ok but  I can't hear
> what I am recording.  
>  
> And I have to crank up the gain control on the DJ-Pre11 
> (cf. the level needed with WDS or MME hosts) to get a sensible 
> recording level.
>  
> UC#2and UC#1.1 would make WDM/KS *not* my host of choice.
>  
> ________________________________
>  From: Peter Sampson <pet...@ya...>
> To: audacity-quality <aud...@li...> 
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] WDM/KS low latency
>   
> 
> 
> UC1.1 update
> 
> Post processing showed that indeed the signal to noise
> ratio was amplified to unacceptable levels.
> 
> And I forgot to point out that on this m/c selecting the
> LIVE listen on Dublincityfm.ie activates and utilises 
> Windows Media Player.
>  
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: Peter Sampson <pet...@ya...>
> To: audacity-quality <aud...@li...> 
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 2:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] WDM/KS low latency
> 
> Use Case 1.1
>  
> As UC#1 except this time recording live from
> Dublincityfm.ie 
>  
> This time the signal runs at -15 to -12 dB
> this with WCP/Sound devices set to max
> This is a barely adequate signal level likely to 
> create increased signal-to-noise ratio when 
> subsequently Amplified/Normalized.
> 
> In contrast using MME or WDS enables a careful
> juggling between the input and output sliders to get a 
> signal that peaks nicely at around -6dB
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: Peter Sampson <pet...@ya...>
> To: audacity-quality <aud...@li...> 
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] WDM/KS low latency
>   
> 
> 
> Gale wrote:
> >Perhaps do what you normally use Audacity for each day, but 
> >use WDM/KS host instead of your usual host. 
>  
> Use Case #1
>  
> Recording from t'interweb (YouTube) with Realtek
> Edirol UA-1EX not plugged in
> Host: WDM/KS
> Output: Speakers (Realtek HD Audio output)
> Input: Stereo Mix (Realtek HD Audio Stereo input)
> Channels: 2 (Stereo) Input Channels
> both the input and output devices with the "exclusive" settings
> as prescribed in the Audacity Manual.
>  
> Recording worked fine for either:
> 1) Start Audacity recording then start YouTube
> 2) Start YouTube then start Audacity recording
>  
> Trying to use Audacity Play immediately after recording
> yielded the "Error opening sound device..." message, but trying 
> a few seconds later it plays ok (presumably after YT has decided
> to relinquish the device.
>  
> While recording there was no control available in Audacity over the 
> signal level.  The entire Device Toolbar was grayed out and inoperable.
> Control was still available via the WCP/Sound - but at max. level there
> the signal level in Audacity was almost perfect peaking at just 
> around -6dB
>  
> Peter
> UC#2 to follow later
>  
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: Gale Andrews <ga...@au...>
> To: audacity-quality <aud...@li...> 
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 12:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] WDM/KS low latency
>   
> 
> 
> | From Peter Sampson <pet...@ya...> 
> | Sun, 18 Aug 2013 09:31:32 -0700 (PDT)
> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] WDM/KS low latency
> > Gale wrote:>Thanks, Peter. Can you play Audacity to Realtek or UA-1EX under 
> > >WDM/KS if only Audacity is playing? 
> >  
> > Oh yes that seems to work fine
> [...]
> > Do you need me to test recording on either or both the
>  Realtek
> > or the Edirol
>  with WDM/KS as the host?
> 
> Well if you can it would be appreciated. 
> 
> Perhaps do what you normally use Audacity for each day, but 
> use WDM/KS host instead of your usual host. 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Gale 
>   
>  
> > Gale wrote:
> > >Assuming UA-1EX was already visible to Windows when you launched 
> > >Audacity, did you change to WDM/KS immediately before selecting 
> > >UA-IEX in Device Toolbar and trying to record? 
> > AFAIR no - I seem to remember that at that stage I just looked to see
> > what devices were available.
> >  
> > Peter
> >  
> > 
> > Peter Sampson
> > Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780
> > Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299
> >  
> > 
> > ________________________________
> >  From: Gale Andrews <ga...@au...>
> > To:
>  audacity-quality <aud...@li...> 
> > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 5:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] WDM/KS low latency
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > | From Peter Sampson <pet...@ya...> 
> > | Sun, 18 Aug 2013 06:42:17 -0700 (PDT)
> > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] WDM/KS low latency
> > > But WDM/KS seems to collaborate fine with YT when I set my 
> > > UA-1EX as the output device (this is not my normal setting).
> > 
> > Thanks, Peter. Can you play Audacity to Realtek or UA-1EX under 
> > WDM/KS if only Audacity is playing? 
> > 
> > As James suggests, I'm now inclined to
>  think it is not a worry for 
> > us that playing YouTube
>  and Audacity together errors on your 
> > Realtek device. 
> > 
> > WDM/KS bypasses the Kernel Mixer which is normally used to mix
> > the outputs from multiple audio applications. Under XP I would 
> > definitely expect Audacity under WDM/KS to fail if YouTube is 
> > already using the device. 
> > 
> > Perhaps this is a greyer area under Windows 7, or is a flaky/grey
> > area given we may need PortAudio updates.
> > 
> > As an aside I understand that WDM/KS does allow aggregating 
> > inputs from multiple devices (as long as nothing else is using those
> > devices and if the application supports multiple input devices, which 
> > Audacity doesn't).
> > 
> > 
> > > It was a bit of a struggle though to get Audacity-WDM/KS to
> > > see the UA-1EX even though it was plugged in and clearly
> > > visible to Windows O/S - in Audacity I found I still needed a
> > >
>  rescan audio devices for Audacity to see the UA-1EX.
> > 
> > Assuming UA-1EX was already visible to Windows when you launched 
> > Audacity, did you change to WDM/KS immediately before selecting 
> > UA-IEX in Device Toolbar and trying to record? 
> > 
> > 
> > Gale 
> > 
> > 
> > >   From: Peter Sampson <pet...@ya...>
> > >  To: audacity-quality <aud...@li...> 
> > >  Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 2:25 PM
> > >  Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] WDM/KS low latency
> > >  
> > > 
> > > On my Tosh W7 laptop Realtek soundard I get
>  problems on playback 
> > > with WDM/KS as the
>  host.
> > > 
> > > With MME or WDS playback is fine with Youtube playing before starting
> > > playback in Audacity - or by having Audacity playing and then firing up
> > > audio on YT.
> > > 
> > > However with WDM/KS if YouTube is already playing and I then try
> > > to play in Audacity the I get "error opening sound device..."
> > > 
> > > Similarly if Audacity is already playing and I then try to start playing
> > > on YouTube - then I get an (unspecified - generic) error message
> > > on YT.
> > > 
> > > Behaviour seems to be consistent and not intermittent.
> > > 
> > > Peter
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Peter Sampson
> > > Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780
> > > Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299
> > > 
> > >   From: Gale Andrews <ga...@au...>
> > >  To: audacity-quality <aud...@li...> 
> > >  Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 1:25 PM
> > >  Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] WDM/KS low latency
> > >  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > | From Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> 
> > > | Sat, 17 Aug 2013 15:50:20 -0700
> > > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] WDM/KS low latency
> > > > I think it's probably in one of the threads about WDM/KS low latency, 
> > > > but is there a summary recipe of how to achieve it, on the wiki? Given 
> >
>  > > that we're going to release 2.0.4 with WDM/KS
>  implemented, lots of users 
> > > > will want that info.
> > > 
> > > Thanks. I was envisaging this would be important enough to have 
> > > a sentence in the Manual. Just reduce audio to buffer until the 
> > > audio breaks up. 
> > > 
> > > Peter, James, anyone else, how is playback with WDK/KS? Do you 
> > > get "error opening" with any of your sound devices? I do with 
> > > the speakers device, but only with a very recent driver update
> > > which could be suspect. It's intermittent though, which suggests
> > > there is some flakiness somewhere.
> > > 
> > > Try playing in Audacity under WDM/KS when YouTube is playing in 
> > > the browser. That's fine for me and Vaughan (I believe) but is a 
> > > problem for Martyn. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Gale