Thread: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead
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From: Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...> - 2014-05-12 17:55:59
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The Link to http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm has died. This affects the Help button in the Contrast tool, and the documentation in the manual: http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html I don't know what the license terms for that document were (Martyn?). Would we be able to copy that page from: https://web.archive.org/web/20140210043329/http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm and host it in the manual? Steve |
From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2014-05-13 08:43:33
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> From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> > Mon, 12 May 2014 18:55:52 +0100 > Subject: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead > > The Link to http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm has died. > > This affects the Help button in the Contrast tool, and the > documentation in the manual: > http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html > > I don't know what the license terms for that document were (Martyn?). > Would we be able to copy that page from: > https://web.archive.org/web/20140210043329/http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm > and host it in the manual? Thanks for that, Steve. I'm rather unhappy about linking to that document at all as it stands. * Most of the examples on the page are unsplit stereo tracks which will now fail with an error. * "Directions for non-mouse, keyboard users" are incorrect because modifying the timetext controls in Contrast Tool does not modify the selection. I vaguely recall this was not easily fixed. I have already e-mailed David (@ eramp) separately about both issues, but never heard back. I found http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines but I don't think there is anything in there that would enlighten users. Assuming we can't contact David @ eramp, could we just redirect the button in Contrast Analysis to a revamped http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html i.e. cull whatever extra useful material we can get from the eramp page? Gale |
From: Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...> - 2014-05-13 12:35:32
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I see your (Gale) reservations about the eramp help page. I'd not actually read it, just noticed that the link no longer worked. +1 for linking to the manual page (revamped). It could open the local version if the manual is installed, and the on-line version if not installed. On 13 May 2014 09:43, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote: > >> From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> >> Mon, 12 May 2014 18:55:52 +0100 >> Subject: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead >> > The Link to http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm has died. >> >> This affects the Help button in the Contrast tool, and the >> documentation in the manual: >> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html >> >> I don't know what the license terms for that document were (Martyn?). >> Would we be able to copy that page from: >> https://web.archive.org/web/20140210043329/http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm >> and host it in the manual? > > Thanks for that, Steve. > > I'm rather unhappy about linking to that document at all > as it stands. > > * Most of the examples on the page are unsplit stereo > tracks which will now fail with an error. Ah yes, http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=511 > > * "Directions for non-mouse, keyboard users" are incorrect > because modifying the timetext controls in Contrast Tool > does not modify the selection. I vaguely recall this was > not easily fixed. I don't see that on bugzilla. Should I add it, or have I just missed it? Steve > > I have already e-mailed David (@ eramp) separately about > both issues, but never heard back. > > I found http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ and > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines > > but I don't think there is anything in there that would enlighten > users. > > Assuming we can't contact David @ eramp, could we just redirect > the button in Contrast Analysis to a revamped > http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html > > i.e. cull whatever extra useful material we can get from the eramp > page? > > > > Gale |
From: Martyn S. <mar...@gm...> - 2014-05-14 00:15:10
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Hi Sorry, I've no idea what the agreements were on web pages to support this functionality, everything was very open back then, and my memory fails. I'm happy if it links to the manual, since eramp seems to have gone off-line. I remember that I did actually get paid to implement the 'Contrast tool', and I know it isn't perfect. TTFN Martyn On 13/05/2014 13:35, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > I see your (Gale) reservations about the eramp help page. I'd not > actually read it, just noticed that the link no longer worked. > > +1 for linking to the manual page (revamped). > It could open the local version if the manual is installed, and the > on-line version if not installed. > > > On 13 May 2014 09:43, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote: >> >>> From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> >>> Mon, 12 May 2014 18:55:52 +0100 >>> Subject: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead >>> > The Link to http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm has died. >>> >>> This affects the Help button in the Contrast tool, and the >>> documentation in the manual: >>> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html >>> >>> I don't know what the license terms for that document were (Martyn?). >>> Would we be able to copy that page from: >>> https://web.archive.org/web/20140210043329/http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm >>> and host it in the manual? >> >> Thanks for that, Steve. >> >> I'm rather unhappy about linking to that document at all >> as it stands. >> >> * Most of the examples on the page are unsplit stereo >> tracks which will now fail with an error. > > Ah yes, http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=511 > > >> >> * "Directions for non-mouse, keyboard users" are incorrect >> because modifying the timetext controls in Contrast Tool >> does not modify the selection. I vaguely recall this was >> not easily fixed. > > I don't see that on bugzilla. Should I add it, or have I just missed it? > > Steve > >> >> I have already e-mailed David (@ eramp) separately about >> both issues, but never heard back. >> >> I found http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ and >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines >> >> but I don't think there is anything in there that would enlighten >> users. >> >> Assuming we can't contact David @ eramp, could we just redirect >> the button in Contrast Analysis to a revamped >> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html >> >> i.e. cull whatever extra useful material we can get from the eramp >> page? >> >> >> >> Gale |
From: Gale (A. Team) <ga...@au...> - 2014-05-17 03:47:19
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> Steve wrote: >>On 13 May 2014 09:43, Gale Andrews <gale@> wrote: >>> From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@> >>> Mon, 12 May 2014 18:55:52 +0100 >>> Subject: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead >>> The Link to http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm has >>> died. >>> >>> This affects the Help button in the Contrast tool, and the >>> documentation in the manual: >> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html >>> >>> I don't know what the license terms for that document were (Martyn?). >>> Would we be able to copy that page from: >>> https://web.archive.org/web/20140210043329/http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm >>> and host it in the manual? >> >> I'm rather unhappy about linking to that document at all >> as it stands. >> >> * Most of the examples on the page are unsplit stereo >> tracks which will now fail with an error. > >Ah yes, http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=511 > >> * "Directions for non-mouse, keyboard users" are incorrect >> because modifying the timetext controls in Contrast Tool >> does not modify the selection. I vaguely recall this was >> not easily fixed. > >I don't see that on bugzilla. Should I add it, or have I just missed it? I don't think it's there. I understood Martyn saw no easy way to do that. If you or Martyn want to add it, I think it's an enhancement rather than a bug. I have not seen anyone complaining about it. Your patch http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=724 to redirect the "WCAG2 Help" button to the Manual seems fine, thanks. The only comment I have about the patch is that since this seems likely to be a permanent redirection of the button, should the button be renamed to "Help" and be exactly like whatever procedure we aim to have for adding Help buttons to dialogues? Even when the eramp page existed, it seemed little to with WCAG2 and more like expanded help with using the tool. Gale > I have already e-mailed David (@ eramp) separately about > both issues, but never heard back. > > I found http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ and > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines > > but I don't think there is anything in there that would enlighten > users. > > Assuming we can't contact David @ eramp, could we just redirect > the button in Contrast Analysis to a revamped > http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html > > i.e. cull whatever extra useful material we can get from the eramp > page? > > > > Gale -- View this message in context: http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Contrast-tool-WCAG2-link-dead-tp7561827p7561849.html Sent from the audacity-quality mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
From: Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...> - 2014-05-17 10:17:56
|
On 17 May 2014 04:47, Gale (Audacity Team) <ga...@au...> wrote: >> Steve wrote: >>>On 13 May 2014 09:43, Gale Andrews <gale@> wrote: >>>> From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@> >>>> Mon, 12 May 2014 18:55:52 +0100 >>>> Subject: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead >>>> The Link to http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm has >>>> died. >>>> >>>> This affects the Help button in the Contrast tool, and the >>>> documentation in the manual: >>> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html >>>> >>>> I don't know what the license terms for that document were (Martyn?). >>>> Would we be able to copy that page from: >>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20140210043329/http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm >>>> and host it in the manual? >>> >>> I'm rather unhappy about linking to that document at all >>> as it stands. >>> >>> * Most of the examples on the page are unsplit stereo >>> tracks which will now fail with an error. >> >>Ah yes, http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=511 >> >>> * "Directions for non-mouse, keyboard users" are incorrect >>> because modifying the timetext controls in Contrast Tool >>> does not modify the selection. I vaguely recall this was >>> not easily fixed. >> >>I don't see that on bugzilla. Should I add it, or have I just missed it? > > I don't think it's there. I understood Martyn saw no easy way to do that. I think that it certainly "looks" like you should be able to set the analysis region with the time controls. > > If you or Martyn want to add it, I think it's an enhancement rather than > a bug. I have not seen anyone complaining about it. I presume that the intention was as described on the old help page, in which case I think it would be preferable (if possible) to fix it so that it works like that. If it's not possible to make that work, then perhaps it would be better to make the time selection non-editable? (perhaps just as a text message?) I'd welcome Martyn's comment on this. > > Your patch http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=724 to > redirect the "WCAG2 Help" button to the Manual seems fine, thanks. > > The only comment I have about the patch is that since this seems > likely to be a permanent redirection of the button, should the button > be renamed to "Help" and be exactly like whatever procedure we aim > to have for adding Help buttons to dialogues? Even when the eramp > page existed, it seemed little to with WCAG2 and more like expanded > help with using the tool. > > > Gale > > >> I have already e-mailed David (@ eramp) separately about >> both issues, but never heard back. >> >> I found http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ and >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines >> >> but I don't think there is anything in there that would enlighten >> users. >> >> Assuming we can't contact David @ eramp, could we just redirect >> the button in Contrast Analysis to a revamped >> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html >> >> i.e. cull whatever extra useful material we can get from the eramp >> page? >> >> >> >> Gale > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Contrast-tool-WCAG2-link-dead-tp7561827p7561849.html > Sent from the audacity-quality mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > |
From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2014-05-19 09:25:57
|
> From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> > Sat, 17 May 2014 11:17:48 +0100 > Subject: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead > > On 17 May 2014 04:47, Gale (Audacity Team) <ga...@au...> wrote: > >> Steve wrote: > >>>On 13 May 2014 09:43, Gale Andrews <gale@> wrote: > >>>> From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@> > >>>> Mon, 12 May 2014 18:55:52 +0100 > >>>> Subject: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead > >>>> The Link to http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm has > >>>> died. > >>>> > >>>> This affects the Help button in the Contrast tool, and the > >>>> documentation in the manual: > >>> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html > >>>> > >>>> I don't know what the license terms for that document were (Martyn?). > >>>> Would we be able to copy that page from: > >>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20140210043329/http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm > >>>> and host it in the manual? > >>> > >>> I'm rather unhappy about linking to that document at all > >>> as it stands. > >>> > >>> * Most of the examples on the page are unsplit stereo > >>> tracks which will now fail with an error. > >> > >>Ah yes, http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=511 > >> > >>> * "Directions for non-mouse, keyboard users" are incorrect > >>> because modifying the timetext controls in Contrast Tool > >>> does not modify the selection. I vaguely recall this was > >>> not easily fixed. > >> > >>I don't see that on bugzilla. Should I add it, or have I just missed it? > > > > I don't think it's there. I understood Martyn saw no easy way to do that. > > I think that it certainly "looks" like you should be able to set the > analysis region with the time controls. > > > If you or Martyn want to add it, I think it's an enhancement rather than > > a bug. I have not seen anyone complaining about it. > > I presume that the intention was as described on the old help page, in > which case I think it would be preferable (if possible) to fix it so > that it works like that. > > If it's not possible to make that work, then perhaps it would be > better to make the time selection non-editable? (perhaps just as a > text message?) > > I'd welcome Martyn's comment on this. AFAICT the last discussion about it was here: http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Audio-contrast-tool-td3149834.html and Martyn's preference then was to remove the timetext controls and have the selection made on the waveform. I can see the advantage of an uneditable text display of the background and foreground selection in the tool though. As the "accessibility" part of the tool is concerned with hearing audio contrast rather than with visually impaired usage, I think it slightly preferable that audio is selected normally in the waveform. Gale > > Your patch http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=724 to > > redirect the "WCAG2 Help" button to the Manual seems fine, thanks. > > > > The only comment I have about the patch is that since this seems > > likely to be a permanent redirection of the button, should the button > > be renamed to "Help" and be exactly like whatever procedure we aim > > to have for adding Help buttons to dialogues? Even when the eramp > > page existed, it seemed little to with WCAG2 and more like expanded > > help with using the tool. > > > > > > Gale > > > > > >> I have already e-mailed David (@ eramp) separately about > >> both issues, but never heard back. > >> > >> I found http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ and > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines > >> > >> but I don't think there is anything in there that would enlighten > >> users. > >> > >> Assuming we can't contact David @ eramp, could we just redirect > >> the button in Contrast Analysis to a revamped > >> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html > >> > >> i.e. cull whatever extra useful material we can get from the eramp > >> page? > >> > >> > >> > >> Gale > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > View this message in context: http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Contrast-tool-WCAG2-link-dead-tp7561827p7561849.html > > Sent from the audacity-quality mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE > Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. > Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available > Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > _______________________________________________ > Audacity-quality mailing list > Aud...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality |
From: Martyn S. <mar...@gm...> - 2014-05-19 23:15:43
|
Hi I'm sorry but I am very busy at the moment and have very little time for this. If any devels have a better way to implement the basic principles then I am happy for them to do it. TTFN Martyn On 19/05/2014 10:25, Gale Andrews wrote: > >> From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> >> Sat, 17 May 2014 11:17:48 +0100 >> Subject: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead >> > On 17 May 2014 04:47, Gale (Audacity Team) <ga...@au...> wrote: >>>> Steve wrote: >>>>> On 13 May 2014 09:43, Gale Andrews <gale@> wrote: >>>>>> From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@> >>>>>> Mon, 12 May 2014 18:55:52 +0100 >>>>>> Subject: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead >>>>>> The Link to http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm has >>>>>> died. >>>>>> >>>>>> This affects the Help button in the Contrast tool, and the >>>>>> documentation in the manual: >>>>> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know what the license terms for that document were (Martyn?). >>>>>> Would we be able to copy that page from: >>>>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20140210043329/http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm >>>>>> and host it in the manual? >>>>> >>>>> I'm rather unhappy about linking to that document at all >>>>> as it stands. >>>>> >>>>> * Most of the examples on the page are unsplit stereo >>>>> tracks which will now fail with an error. >>>> >>>> Ah yes, http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=511 >>>> >>>>> * "Directions for non-mouse, keyboard users" are incorrect >>>>> because modifying the timetext controls in Contrast Tool >>>>> does not modify the selection. I vaguely recall this was >>>>> not easily fixed. >>>> >>>> I don't see that on bugzilla. Should I add it, or have I just missed it? >>> >>> I don't think it's there. I understood Martyn saw no easy way to do that. >> >> I think that it certainly "looks" like you should be able to set the >> analysis region with the time controls. >> >>> If you or Martyn want to add it, I think it's an enhancement rather than >>> a bug. I have not seen anyone complaining about it. >> >> I presume that the intention was as described on the old help page, in >> which case I think it would be preferable (if possible) to fix it so >> that it works like that. >> >> If it's not possible to make that work, then perhaps it would be >> better to make the time selection non-editable? (perhaps just as a >> text message?) >> >> I'd welcome Martyn's comment on this. > > AFAICT the last discussion about it was here: > http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Audio-contrast-tool-td3149834.html > > and Martyn's preference then was to remove the timetext > controls and have the selection made on the waveform. > I can see the advantage of an uneditable text display of the > background and foreground selection in the tool though. > > As the "accessibility" part of the tool is concerned with hearing > audio contrast rather than with visually impaired usage, I think > it slightly preferable that audio is selected normally in the > waveform. > > > > Gale > > >>> Your patch http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=724 to >>> redirect the "WCAG2 Help" button to the Manual seems fine, thanks. >>> >>> The only comment I have about the patch is that since this seems >>> likely to be a permanent redirection of the button, should the button >>> be renamed to "Help" and be exactly like whatever procedure we aim >>> to have for adding Help buttons to dialogues? Even when the eramp >>> page existed, it seemed little to with WCAG2 and more like expanded >>> help with using the tool. >>> >>> >>> Gale >>> >>> >>>> I have already e-mailed David (@ eramp) separately about >>>> both issues, but never heard back. >>>> >>>> I found http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ and >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines >>>> >>>> but I don't think there is anything in there that would enlighten >>>> users. >>>> >>>> Assuming we can't contact David @ eramp, could we just redirect >>>> the button in Contrast Analysis to a revamped >>>> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html >>>> >>>> i.e. cull whatever extra useful material we can get from the eramp >>>> page? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Gale >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> View this message in context: http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Contrast-tool-WCAG2-link-dead-tp7561827p7561849.html >>> Sent from the audacity-quality mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE >> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. >> Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available >> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs >> _______________________________________________ >> Audacity-quality mailing list >> Aud...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality > > |
From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2014-05-24 18:58:36
|
http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm seems to be live again. I don't think it changes anything given that page is inaccurate for the current Contrast Tool. Perhaps if/when we update Contrast Tool we should ask David @ eramp if he wants to do a rewrite of his page? Gale > > From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> > > Sat, 17 May 2014 11:17:48 +0100 > > Subject: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead > > > On 17 May 2014 04:47, Gale (Audacity Team) <ga...@au...> wrote: > > >> Steve wrote: > > >>>On 13 May 2014 09:43, Gale Andrews <gale@> wrote: > > >>>> From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@> > > >>>> Mon, 12 May 2014 18:55:52 +0100 > > >>>> Subject: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead > > >>>> The Link to http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm has > > >>>> died. > > >>>> > > >>>> This affects the Help button in the Contrast tool, and the > > >>>> documentation in the manual: > > >>> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html > > >>>> > > >>>> I don't know what the license terms for that document were (Martyn?). > > >>>> Would we be able to copy that page from: > > >>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20140210043329/http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm > > >>>> and host it in the manual? > > >>> > > >>> I'm rather unhappy about linking to that document at all > > >>> as it stands. > > >>> > > >>> * Most of the examples on the page are unsplit stereo > > >>> tracks which will now fail with an error. > > >> > > >>Ah yes, http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=511 > > >> > > >>> * "Directions for non-mouse, keyboard users" are incorrect > > >>> because modifying the timetext controls in Contrast Tool > > >>> does not modify the selection. I vaguely recall this was > > >>> not easily fixed. > > >> > > >>I don't see that on bugzilla. Should I add it, or have I just missed it? > > > > > > I don't think it's there. I understood Martyn saw no easy way to do that. |
From: Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...> - 2014-05-17 11:22:43
|
On 17 May 2014 04:47, Gale (Audacity Team) <ga...@au...> wrote: >> Steve wrote: >>>On 13 May 2014 09:43, Gale Andrews <gale@> wrote: >>>> From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@> >>>> Mon, 12 May 2014 18:55:52 +0100 >>>> Subject: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead >>>> The Link to http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm has >>>> died. >>>> >>>> This affects the Help button in the Contrast tool, and the >>>> documentation in the manual: >>> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html >>>> >>>> I don't know what the license terms for that document were (Martyn?). >>>> Would we be able to copy that page from: >>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20140210043329/http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm >>>> and host it in the manual? >>> >>> I'm rather unhappy about linking to that document at all >>> as it stands. >>> >>> * Most of the examples on the page are unsplit stereo >>> tracks which will now fail with an error. >> >>Ah yes, http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=511 >> >>> * "Directions for non-mouse, keyboard users" are incorrect >>> because modifying the timetext controls in Contrast Tool >>> does not modify the selection. I vaguely recall this was >>> not easily fixed. >> >>I don't see that on bugzilla. Should I add it, or have I just missed it? > > I don't think it's there. I understood Martyn saw no easy way to do that. > > If you or Martyn want to add it, I think it's an enhancement rather than > a bug. I have not seen anyone complaining about it. > > Your patch http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=724 to > redirect the "WCAG2 Help" button to the Manual seems fine, thanks. > > The only comment I have about the patch is that since this seems > likely to be a permanent redirection of the button, should the button > be renamed to "Help" and be exactly like whatever procedure we aim > to have for adding Help buttons to dialogues? Even when the eramp > page existed, it seemed little to with WCAG2 and more like expanded > help with using the tool. Possibly two issues here: 1) Change the text on the "WCAG 2 Help" button to "Help". Easy change: +1 2) "be exactly like whatever procedure we aim to have for adding Help buttons to dialogs" This is a bit more problematic because the Help menu button code has been bolted on to the Error handling code (ErrorDialog.cpp), though it really has nothing to do with "errors". Iirc when this was raised previously (Vaughan?) said that the Help buttons should be handled properly before being widely adopted. Personally I'm in favour of wider adoption of Help buttons which I think will be particularly useful for some of the more "difficult" effects. There was previously some discussion about help buttons on the forum and mailing lists. http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=72470 http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Re-Help-buttons-in-dialogues-WAS-Re-Nyquist-Generate-Prompt-tt7558203.html#a7558212 Perhaps what we need is a wiki proposal so that we can decide exactly what procedure we are aiming for? Steve > > > Gale > > >> I have already e-mailed David (@ eramp) separately about >> both issues, but never heard back. >> >> I found http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ and >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines >> >> but I don't think there is anything in there that would enlighten >> users. >> >> Assuming we can't contact David @ eramp, could we just redirect >> the button in Contrast Analysis to a revamped >> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html >> >> i.e. cull whatever extra useful material we can get from the eramp >> page? >> >> >> >> Gale > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Contrast-tool-WCAG2-link-dead-tp7561827p7561849.html > Sent from the audacity-quality mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE > Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. > Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available > Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > _______________________________________________ > Audacity-quality mailing list > Aud...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality |
From: Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...> - 2014-05-18 20:21:19
|
Do we have agreement about changing the label on the "WCAG 2 Help" button to "Help"? Although it's not directly part of bug 724 as currently described, it is a tiny change in the same file so I might as well add that change at the same time if it has agreement. Steve On 17 May 2014 12:22, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: > On 17 May 2014 04:47, Gale (Audacity Team) <ga...@au...> wrote: >>> Steve wrote: >>>>On 13 May 2014 09:43, Gale Andrews <gale@> wrote: >>>>> From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@> >>>>> Mon, 12 May 2014 18:55:52 +0100 >>>>> Subject: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead >>>>> The Link to http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm has >>>>> died. >>>>> >>>>> This affects the Help button in the Contrast tool, and the >>>>> documentation in the manual: >>>> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html >>>>> >>>>> I don't know what the license terms for that document were (Martyn?). >>>>> Would we be able to copy that page from: >>>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20140210043329/http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm >>>>> and host it in the manual? >>>> >>>> I'm rather unhappy about linking to that document at all >>>> as it stands. >>>> >>>> * Most of the examples on the page are unsplit stereo >>>> tracks which will now fail with an error. >>> >>>Ah yes, http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=511 >>> >>>> * "Directions for non-mouse, keyboard users" are incorrect >>>> because modifying the timetext controls in Contrast Tool >>>> does not modify the selection. I vaguely recall this was >>>> not easily fixed. >>> >>>I don't see that on bugzilla. Should I add it, or have I just missed it? >> >> I don't think it's there. I understood Martyn saw no easy way to do that. >> >> If you or Martyn want to add it, I think it's an enhancement rather than >> a bug. I have not seen anyone complaining about it. >> >> Your patch http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=724 to >> redirect the "WCAG2 Help" button to the Manual seems fine, thanks. >> >> The only comment I have about the patch is that since this seems >> likely to be a permanent redirection of the button, should the button >> be renamed to "Help" and be exactly like whatever procedure we aim >> to have for adding Help buttons to dialogues? Even when the eramp >> page existed, it seemed little to with WCAG2 and more like expanded >> help with using the tool. > > Possibly two issues here: > > 1) Change the text on the "WCAG 2 Help" button to "Help". > Easy change: +1 > > 2) "be exactly like whatever procedure we aim to have for adding Help > buttons to dialogs" > This is a bit more problematic because the Help menu button code has > been bolted on to the Error handling code (ErrorDialog.cpp), though it > really has nothing to do with "errors". Iirc when this was raised > previously (Vaughan?) said that the Help buttons should be handled > properly before being widely adopted. > > Personally I'm in favour of wider adoption of Help buttons which I > think will be particularly useful for some of the more "difficult" > effects. > > There was previously some discussion about help buttons on the forum > and mailing lists. > http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=72470 > http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Re-Help-buttons-in-dialogues-WAS-Re-Nyquist-Generate-Prompt-tt7558203.html#a7558212 > Perhaps what we need is a wiki proposal so that we can decide exactly > what procedure we are aiming for? > > Steve > > > >> >> >> Gale >> >> >>> I have already e-mailed David (@ eramp) separately about >>> both issues, but never heard back. >>> >>> I found http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ and >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines >>> >>> but I don't think there is anything in there that would enlighten >>> users. >>> >>> Assuming we can't contact David @ eramp, could we just redirect >>> the button in Contrast Analysis to a revamped >>> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html >>> >>> i.e. cull whatever extra useful material we can get from the eramp >>> page? >>> >>> >>> >>> Gale >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Contrast-tool-WCAG2-link-dead-tp7561827p7561849.html >> Sent from the audacity-quality mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE >> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. >> Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available >> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs >> _______________________________________________ >> Audacity-quality mailing list >> Aud...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality |
From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2014-05-19 10:17:02
|
> From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> > Sun, 18 May 2014 21:21:11 +0100 > Subject: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead > Do we have agreement about changing the label on the "WCAG 2 Help" > button to "Help"? > > Although it's not directly part of bug 724 as currently described, it > is a tiny change in the same file so I might as well add that change > at the same time if it has agreement. I see you did so - I prefer it saying "Help" than "WCAG2 Help". > On 17 May 2014 12:22, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: > > On 17 May 2014 04:47, Gale (Audacity Team) <ga...@au...> wrote: > >>> Steve wrote: > >>>>On 13 May 2014 09:43, Gale Andrews <gale@> wrote: > >>>>> From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@> > >>>>> Mon, 12 May 2014 18:55:52 +0100 > >>>>> Subject: [Audacity-quality] Contrast tool: WCAG2 link dead > >>>>> The Link to http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm has > >>>>> died. > >>>>> > >>>>> This affects the Help button in the Contrast tool, and the > >>>>> documentation in the manual: > >>>> http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't know what the license terms for that document were (Martyn?). > >>>>> Would we be able to copy that page from: > >>>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20140210043329/http://www.eramp.com/WCAG_2_audio_contrast_tool_help.htm > >>>>> and host it in the manual? > >>>> > >>>> I'm rather unhappy about linking to that document at all > >>>> as it stands. > >>>> > >>>> * Most of the examples on the page are unsplit stereo > >>>> tracks which will now fail with an error. > >>> > >>>Ah yes, http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=511 > >>> > >>>> * "Directions for non-mouse, keyboard users" are incorrect > >>>> because modifying the timetext controls in Contrast Tool > >>>> does not modify the selection. I vaguely recall this was > >>>> not easily fixed. > >>> > >>>I don't see that on bugzilla. Should I add it, or have I just missed it? > >> > >> I don't think it's there. I understood Martyn saw no easy way to do that. > >> > >> If you or Martyn want to add it, I think it's an enhancement rather than > >> a bug. I have not seen anyone complaining about it. > >> > >> Your patch http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=724 to > >> redirect the "WCAG2 Help" button to the Manual seems fine, thanks. > >> > >> The only comment I have about the patch is that since this seems > >> likely to be a permanent redirection of the button, should the button > >> be renamed to "Help" and be exactly like whatever procedure we aim > >> to have for adding Help buttons to dialogues? Even when the eramp > >> page existed, it seemed little to with WCAG2 and more like expanded > >> help with using the tool. > > > > Possibly two issues here: > > > > 1) Change the text on the "WCAG 2 Help" button to "Help". > > Easy change: +1 > > > > 2) "be exactly like whatever procedure we aim to have for adding Help > > buttons to dialogs" > > This is a bit more problematic because the Help menu button code has > > been bolted on to the Error handling code (ErrorDialog.cpp), though it > > really has nothing to do with "errors". Iirc when this was raised > > previously (Vaughan?) said that the Help buttons should be handled > > properly before being widely adopted. > > > > Personally I'm in favour of wider adoption of Help buttons which I > > think will be particularly useful for some of the more "difficult" > > effects. Agreed. > > There was previously some discussion about help buttons on the forum > > and mailing lists. > > http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=72470 > > http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Re-Help-buttons-in-dialogues-WAS-Re-Nyquist-Generate-Prompt-tt7558203.html#a7558212 Vaughan's detailed comments (just after Martyn's) can be found here: http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Nyquist-Generate-Prompt-td7558169.html#a7558202 > > Perhaps what we need is a wiki proposal so that we can decide exactly > > what procedure we are aiming for? You said you were happy with Vaughan's idea on the code where he said: > I suggest an OnHelp() method on EffectDialog, with the common code, > and a new wxString member vars, that specify the links to use. Then each > descendant sets that link value for its manual page, and the code in the > base class doesn't have to be duplicated in all the descendants, it just > refers to that member var. I think the main issues are QA ones so probably good for a Wiki Proposal: * where the help buttons go if there is no local manual (convenience of going to the online Manual versus making the local manual discoverable) * Whether the "Location of Manual" Preference is a good idea anyway. * (partly code consideration) what about Help features in other dialogues such as Preferences, Edit Metadata, Check Dependencies? For example are tooltips preferred there instead of or in addition to Help buttons? The Contrast Tool help button was always a one-off so I guess these questions don't affect bug 724 right now. Gale |
From: Richard A. <ri...@au...> - 2014-05-19 19:19:15
|
On Sat, 17 May 2014 12:22:36 +0100 Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: > Possibly two issues here: > > 1) Change the text on the "WCAG 2 Help" button to "Help". > Easy change: +1 > > 2) "be exactly like whatever procedure we aim to have for adding Help > buttons to dialogs" > This is a bit more problematic because the Help menu button code has > been bolted on to the Error handling code (ErrorDialog.cpp), though it > really has nothing to do with "errors". Iirc when this was raised > previously (Vaughan?) said that the Help buttons should be handled > properly before being widely adopted. > > Personally I'm in favour of wider adoption of Help buttons which I > think will be particularly useful for some of the more "difficult" > effects. Thank you for the patch. It works nicely for the web manual, I don't have the local copy installed but I assume that also works. The thing I think we need to fix most importantly before committing is the quantity of hard-coded strings which are being added. These include the name of the page (twice) and the URL of the online copy of the manual. All of these should be "add once" not "add many" as they are at the moment. Ultimately I think fixing this will make it much easier to fix the error handling code issue, or at least encapsulate it, because we want an object which does what you have done in-line, but encapsulates all the tedious string manipulation to create the file name and internet URL. I am quite happy for this encapsulating class to be built on top of the error handler code, because changing that will be transparent to users of the code. I'm hoping we can just have a void ShowHelpPage(wxString PageName); global method which can be called with the (unique) name of the page to be shown, e.g. ShowHelpPage(wxT("contrast")); (the function is responsible for translating this into wxFileName(FileNames::HtmlHelpDir()+wxT("/man"),PageName + wxT(".html")).GetFullPath() and wxT("http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/")+PageName+wxT(".html") and passing them to ShowHelpDialog(). This may not seem a big deal now, but will be if we end up with a lot of them all over the code base. Think about what to do if the server hosting the on-line manual changes it's name ... Richard |
From: Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...> - 2014-05-19 22:21:15
|
On 19 May 2014 20:19, Richard Ash <ri...@au...> wrote: > On Sat, 17 May 2014 12:22:36 +0100 > Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: >> Possibly two issues here: >> >> 1) Change the text on the "WCAG 2 Help" button to "Help". >> Easy change: +1 >> >> 2) "be exactly like whatever procedure we aim to have for adding Help >> buttons to dialogs" >> This is a bit more problematic because the Help menu button code has >> been bolted on to the Error handling code (ErrorDialog.cpp), though it >> really has nothing to do with "errors". Iirc when this was raised >> previously (Vaughan?) said that the Help buttons should be handled >> properly before being widely adopted. >> >> Personally I'm in favour of wider adoption of Help buttons which I >> think will be particularly useful for some of the more "difficult" >> effects. > Thank you for the patch. > > It works nicely for the web manual, I don't have the local copy > installed but I assume that also works. Works fine here (Linux) with either local or web manual. Gale has confirmed that it works as expected on Windows and Mac. > > The thing I think we need to fix most importantly before committing is > the quantity of hard-coded strings which are being added. These include > the name of the page (twice) and the URL of the online copy of the > manual. All of these should be "add once" not "add many" as they are at > the moment. > > Ultimately I think fixing this will make it much easier to fix the > error handling code issue, or at least encapsulate it, because we want > an object which does what you have done in-line, but encapsulates all > the tedious string manipulation to create the file name and internet > URL. I am quite happy for this encapsulating class to be built on top > of the error handler code, because changing that will be transparent to > users of the code. > > I'm hoping we can just have a > void ShowHelpPage(wxString PageName); > global method which can be called with the (unique) name of the page to > be shown, e.g. > ShowHelpPage(wxT("contrast")); > (the function is responsible for translating this into > wxFileName(FileNames::HtmlHelpDir()+wxT("/man"),PageName > + wxT(".html")).GetFullPath() > and > wxT("http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/")+PageName+wxT(".html") > and passing them to ShowHelpDialog(). > > This may not seem a big deal now, but will be if we end up with a lot > of them all over the code base. Think about what to do if the server > hosting the on-line manual changes it's name ... Thanks Richard, I absolutely agree. In fact didn't we have such a change just a couple of years ago with the manual moving to the "/o/" subdirectory? There are however a couple of QA issues to be considered, in particular concerning whether Help buttons should ask whether to download the manual, and if not, how to alert users to the availability of downloading the manual if they don't have it installed. Also, when discussed previously Vaughan was strongly in favour of having an OnHelp() method on EffectFialog. http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Nyquist-Generate-Prompt-td7558169.html#a7558202 I'm happy to have a crack at this, but I'd rather have one working Help button as a starting point than one broken help button. The current patch is only 3 lines of code (+ 1 include) and fixes the problem as stated, so I'd rather commit it as is and then work on the general problem when the preferred behaviour has been decided. (I'd be equally happy if anyone wants to take this over and do the full job in one, but I'm guessing that the developers all have bigger issues on their plates). Steve > > Richard |
From: Richard A. <ri...@au...> - 2014-06-09 20:04:51
|
On Mon, 19 May 2014 23:21:08 +0100 Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: > I'm happy to have a crack at this, but I'd rather have one working > Help button as a starting point than one broken help button. You do now, sorry this has taken so long. Most of the time was spent re-factoring the existing help dialogs (which are not widely used) out of ErrorDialog.cpp into something this could be built on. Note that the sole argument to HelpSystem::ShowHelpDialog() is the wiki name, not the zip file name - because the translation can be done that way (as the scrape script does) but not the other. Richard |
From: Gale (A. Team) <ga...@au...> - 2014-05-20 03:30:33
|
> Steve wrote: >> On 19 May 2014 20:19, Richard Ash <richard@> wrote: >> I'm hoping we can just have a >> void ShowHelpPage(wxString PageName); >> global method which can be called with the (unique) name of the page to >> be shown, e.g. >> ShowHelpPage(wxT("contrast")); >> (the function is responsible for translating this into >> wxFileName(FileNames::HtmlHelpDir()+wxT("/man"),PageName >> + wxT(".html")).GetFullPath() >> and >> wxT("http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/")+PageName+wxT(".html") >> and passing them to ShowHelpDialog(). >> >> This may not seem a big deal now, but will be if we end up with a lot >> of them all over the code base. Think about what to do if the server >> hosting the on-line manual changes it's name ... > > Thanks Richard, I absolutely agree. In fact didn't we have such a > change just a couple of years ago with the manual moving to the "/o/" > subdirectory? > > There are however a couple of QA issues to be considered, in > particular concerning whether Help buttons should ask whether to > download the manual, and if not, how to alert users to the > availability of downloading the manual if they don't have it > installed. If we kept the "Location of Manual" preference, one idea may be to provide a checkbox: [ ] Don't ask again and always use online Manual in the dialog offering to download the Manual. Checking the box would change the Manual's preference to "From Internet". I guess it would be overkill to link the checkbox to a new Warnings Preference, so if necessary some brief text could be given underneath the box to say where the preference can be found. If a checkbox is a problem in that window, then the user could be asked to make the change by having an additional sentence in the HTML: "To always view the Manual online, change "Location of Manual" in Interface Preferences to "From Internet". > Also, when discussed previously Vaughan was strongly in favour of > having an OnHelp() method on EffectFialog. > http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Nyquist-Generate-Prompt-td7558169.html#a7558202 > I'm happy to have a crack at this, but I'd rather have one working > Help button as a starting point than one broken help button. The > current patch is only 3 lines of code (+ 1 include) and fixes the > problem as stated, so I'd rather commit it as is and then work on the > general problem when the preferred behaviour has been decided. I agree the link should not be left broken for the next release and that it may better to fix that now. Gale -- View this message in context: http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Contrast-tool-WCAG2-link-dead-tp7561827p7561886.html Sent from the audacity-quality mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
From: Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...> - 2014-05-20 09:21:27
|
On 20 May 2014 04:30, Gale (Audacity Team) <ga...@au...> wrote: >> Steve wrote: >>> On 19 May 2014 20:19, Richard Ash <richard@> wrote: >>> I'm hoping we can just have a >>> void ShowHelpPage(wxString PageName); >>> global method which can be called with the (unique) name of the page to >>> be shown, e.g. >>> ShowHelpPage(wxT("contrast")); >>> (the function is responsible for translating this into >>> wxFileName(FileNames::HtmlHelpDir()+wxT("/man"),PageName >>> + wxT(".html")).GetFullPath() >>> and >>> wxT("http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/")+PageName+wxT(".html") >>> and passing them to ShowHelpDialog(). >>> >>> This may not seem a big deal now, but will be if we end up with a lot >>> of them all over the code base. Think about what to do if the server >>> hosting the on-line manual changes it's name ... >> >> Thanks Richard, I absolutely agree. In fact didn't we have such a >> change just a couple of years ago with the manual moving to the "/o/" >> subdirectory? >> >> There are however a couple of QA issues to be considered, in >> particular concerning whether Help buttons should ask whether to >> download the manual, and if not, how to alert users to the >> availability of downloading the manual if they don't have it >> installed. > > If we kept the "Location of Manual" preference, one idea may be > to provide a checkbox: > > [ ] Don't ask again and always use online Manual > > in the dialog offering to download the Manual. > > Checking the box would change the Manual's preference to "From Internet". > I guess it would be overkill to link the checkbox to a new Warnings > Preference, so if necessary some brief text could be given underneath > the box to say where the preference can be found. I was thinking along the same lines. +1 > > If a checkbox is a problem in that window, then the user could be asked > to make the change by having an additional sentence in the HTML: > > "To always view the Manual online, change "Location of Manual" in > Interface Preferences to "From Internet". and that looks like a viable alternative imo. Steve > > >> Also, when discussed previously Vaughan was strongly in favour of >> having an OnHelp() method on EffectFialog. >> http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Nyquist-Generate-Prompt-td7558169.html#a7558202 >> I'm happy to have a crack at this, but I'd rather have one working >> Help button as a starting point than one broken help button. The >> current patch is only 3 lines of code (+ 1 include) and fixes the >> problem as stated, so I'd rather commit it as is and then work on the >> general problem when the preferred behaviour has been decided. > > I agree the link should not be left broken for the next release and > that it may better to fix that now. > > > Gale > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/Contrast-tool-WCAG2-link-dead-tp7561827p7561886.html > Sent from the audacity-quality mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE > Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. > Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available > Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > _______________________________________________ > Audacity-quality mailing list > Aud...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality |