audacity-quality

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...>]

On 28 February 2013 01:53, Martyn Shaw <mar...@gm...> wrote:
> Hi George
>
> Thanks for your patch, which I have committed as-is.  Others may well
> like to change that but I think it is progress on what we had, so I
> put it in.  We possibly have too many menu items already, but 'View'
> isn't as long as some.
>
> TTFN
> Martyn

I'd like to suggest a slight modification to this feature.

The current View menu order is a bit bizarre.
Within the first section we have:

Zoom In  (Ctrl+1)
Zoom Normal  (Ctrl+2)
Zoom Out  (Ctrl+3)
Fit in Window  (Ctrl+F)
Fit Vertically  (Shift+Ctrl+F)
Zoom to Selection  (Ctrl+E)
Go to Selection Start  (Ctrl+4)
Go to Selection End  (Ctrl+5)

My suggestion is to put them into order of the default shortcuts:

Zoom In  (Ctrl+1)
Zoom Normal  (Ctrl+2)
Zoom Out  (Ctrl+3)
Go to Selection Start  (Ctrl+4)
Go to Selection End  (Ctrl+5)
Zoom to Selection  (Ctrl+E)
Fit in Window  (Ctrl+F)
Fit Vertically  (Shift+Ctrl+F)

I've attached a patch.

Steve


>
> On 23/02/2013 00:30, George Simon wrote:
>> Hello!
>>
>> I am an avid Audacity user and a curious student developer! I've read
>> some source and messages on the mailing list, and I've noticed your
>> nice manners and professional code! I'd love to be able to contribute
>> to this great project!
>>
>>
>> One thing I have attempted for my use and your consideration:
>>
>>
>> During editing, I come across this situation a lot:
>>
>> Inside one audio track, I'd like to cut out a sound clip that I don't
>> want. However, I want whatever was before and after the part I cut out
>> to be joined together as seamlessly as possible.
>>
>>
>> I start with making a basic selection, previewing the delete using the
>> very handy Play Cut Preview function a lot (keyboard shortcut: C),
>> whittling my selection down to exactly where I like, then making the
>> delete. Because this is a monotonous task, with lots of tweaking to be
>> made on both sides of the to-be-deleted-selection, I decided to create
>> two tools to make my job easier! These tools solve the problem of
>> being in the wrong place in the track (I.E. not at the beginning or
>> end of the selection) while you are all the way zoomed in working on
>> your selection boundaries.
>>
>>
>> Basically, I added a Go to Selection Start command and Go to Selection
>> End command to the view menu.
>>
>> Not only do these commands put you dead center at the start or
>> beginning of your selection to make it easy to tweak, but they also do
>> so without messing with your play position, selection boundaries, or
>> zoom level!
>>
>>
>> I copied and modified the OnZoomSel() function to two new functions:
>> OnGoSelStart(), and OnGoSelEnd(), and added the appropriate supporting
>> code (as far as I can tell!) in Menus.cpp and Menus.h.
>>
>> The patch is attached to the email.
>>
>>
>> Let me know what you think, and any other way I can help!
>>
>>
>> Thanks and God bless!
>>
>> George Simon

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Gale A. <ga...@au...>]

| From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> 
| Tue, 23 Apr 2013 22:07:41 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
> On 28 February 2013 01:53, Martyn Shaw <mar...@gm...> wrote:
> > Hi George
> >
> > Thanks for your patch, which I have committed as-is.  Others may well
> > like to change that but I think it is progress on what we had, so I
> > put it in.  We possibly have too many menu items already, but 'View'
> > isn't as long as some.
> >
> > TTFN
> > Martyn
> 
> I'd like to suggest a slight modification to this feature.
> 
> The current View menu order is a bit bizarre.
> Within the first section we have:
> 
> Zoom In  (Ctrl+1)
> Zoom Normal  (Ctrl+2)
> Zoom Out  (Ctrl+3)
> Fit in Window  (Ctrl+F)
> Fit Vertically  (Shift+Ctrl+F)
> Zoom to Selection  (Ctrl+E)
> Go to Selection Start  (Ctrl+4)
> Go to Selection End  (Ctrl+5)
> 
> My suggestion is to put them into order of the default shortcuts:
> 
> Zoom In  (Ctrl+1)
> Zoom Normal  (Ctrl+2)
> Zoom Out  (Ctrl+3)
> Go to Selection Start  (Ctrl+4)
> Go to Selection End  (Ctrl+5)
> Zoom to Selection  (Ctrl+E)
> Fit in Window  (Ctrl+F)
> Fit Vertically  (Shift+Ctrl+F)
> 
> 
> I've attached a patch.
> 
> Steve

Thanks, Steve.

I think it's a slight improvement, but I still question using 
CTRL + number for shortcuts that are not zoom shortcuts.

For example, CTRL + SHIFT + S would be available for 
Go to Selection Start and CTRL + SHIFT + D for Go to 
Selection End. 

Or less of a fingerfull, CTRL + G or CTRL + H, which takes
the next available letters in the alphabet. 

Then we could keep the current menu order or perhaps:   

Zoom In  (Ctrl+1)
Zoom Normal  (Ctrl+2)
Zoom Out  (Ctrl+3)
Zoom to Selection  (Ctrl+E)
Fit in Window  (Ctrl+F)
Fit Vertically  (Shift+Ctrl+F)
Go to Selection Start  (Ctrl+G)
Go to Selection End  (Ctrl+H)

This keeps all the "Zoom", "Fit" and "Go" together and would 
have my vote.

But CTRL + number is my main concern.  




Gale  


> > On 23/02/2013 00:30, George Simon wrote:
> >> Hello!
> >>
> >> I am an avid Audacity user and a curious student developer! I've read
> >> some source and messages on the mailing list, and I've noticed your
> >> nice manners and professional code! I'd love to be able to contribute
> >> to this great project!
> >>
> >>
> >> One thing I have attempted for my use and your consideration:
> >>
> >>
> >> During editing, I come across this situation a lot:
> >>
> >> Inside one audio track, I'd like to cut out a sound clip that I don't
> >> want. However, I want whatever was before and after the part I cut out
> >> to be joined together as seamlessly as possible.
> >>
> >>
> >> I start with making a basic selection, previewing the delete using the
> >> very handy Play Cut Preview function a lot (keyboard shortcut: C),
> >> whittling my selection down to exactly where I like, then making the
> >> delete. Because this is a monotonous task, with lots of tweaking to be
> >> made on both sides of the to-be-deleted-selection, I decided to create
> >> two tools to make my job easier! These tools solve the problem of
> >> being in the wrong place in the track (I.E. not at the beginning or
> >> end of the selection) while you are all the way zoomed in working on
> >> your selection boundaries.
> >>
> >>
> >> Basically, I added a Go to Selection Start command and Go to Selection
> >> End command to the view menu.
> >>
> >> Not only do these commands put you dead center at the start or
> >> beginning of your selection to make it easy to tweak, but they also do
> >> so without messing with your play position, selection boundaries, or
> >> zoom level!
> >>
> >>
> >> I copied and modified the OnZoomSel() function to two new functions:
> >> OnGoSelStart(), and OnGoSelEnd(), and added the appropriate supporting
> >> code (as far as I can tell!) in Menus.cpp and Menus.h.
> >>
> >> The patch is attached to the email.
> >>
> >>
> >> Let me know what you think, and any other way I can help!
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks and God bless!
> >>
> >> George Simon

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Gale A. <ga...@au...>]

| From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> 
| Tue, 23 Apr 2013 23:48:35 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
> On 23 April 2013 22:43, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote:
> >
> > | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
> > | Tue, 23 Apr 2013 22:07:41 +0100
> > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
> >> On 28 February 2013 01:53, Martyn Shaw <mar...@gm...> wrote:
> >> > Hi George
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for your patch, which I have committed as-is.  Others may well
> >> > like to change that but I think it is progress on what we had, so I
> >> > put it in.  We possibly have too many menu items already, but 'View'
> >> > isn't as long as some.
> >> >
> >> > TTFN
> >> > Martyn
> >>
> >> I'd like to suggest a slight modification to this feature.
> >>
> >> The current View menu order is a bit bizarre.
> >> Within the first section we have:
> >>
> >> Zoom In  (Ctrl+1)
> >> Zoom Normal  (Ctrl+2)
> >> Zoom Out  (Ctrl+3)
> >> Fit in Window  (Ctrl+F)
> >> Fit Vertically  (Shift+Ctrl+F)
> >> Zoom to Selection  (Ctrl+E)
> >> Go to Selection Start  (Ctrl+4)
> >> Go to Selection End  (Ctrl+5)
> >>
> >> My suggestion is to put them into order of the default shortcuts:
> >>
> >> Zoom In  (Ctrl+1)
> >> Zoom Normal  (Ctrl+2)
> >> Zoom Out  (Ctrl+3)
> >> Go to Selection Start  (Ctrl+4)
> >> Go to Selection End  (Ctrl+5)
> >> Zoom to Selection  (Ctrl+E)
> >> Fit in Window  (Ctrl+F)
> >> Fit Vertically  (Shift+Ctrl+F)
> >>
> >>
> >> I've attached a patch.
> >>
> >> Steve
> >
> > Thanks, Steve.
> >
> > I think it's a slight improvement, but I still question using
> > CTRL + number for shortcuts that are not zoom shortcuts.
> >
> > For example, CTRL + SHIFT + S would be available for
> > Go to Selection Start and CTRL + SHIFT + D for Go to
> > Selection End.
> >
> > Or less of a fingerfull, CTRL + G or CTRL + H, which takes
> > the next available letters in the alphabet.
> >
> > Then we could keep the current menu order or perhaps:
> >
> > Zoom In  (Ctrl+1)
> > Zoom Normal  (Ctrl+2)
> > Zoom Out  (Ctrl+3)
> > Zoom to Selection  (Ctrl+E)
> > Fit in Window  (Ctrl+F)
> > Fit Vertically  (Shift+Ctrl+F)
> > Go to Selection Start  (Ctrl+G)
> > Go to Selection End  (Ctrl+H)
> >
> > This keeps all the "Zoom", "Fit" and "Go" together and would
> > have my vote.
> >
> > But CTRL + number is my main concern.
> >
> 
> I'm not keen on "Ctrl + random-letter-just-because-it's-available"

OK, but your previous suggestion was CTRL + next-available-number
:=)

I found that even harder to remember because this is not a zoom
feature.   


> How about Ctrl + [ for the start of the selection and Ctrl + ] for the end?
> Open and close square brackets suggest the start and end of something,
> and have a visual similarity with the start and end of the selection.

+1 that seems a good choice. 

I had suggested CTRL + , and CTRL + . before, but changed my mind 
because it does not suggest a selection.

The only thing I can perhaps see against CTRL + [  and CTRL + ] 
is that someone might argue for those if we implement "Zoom to 
Selection Start" and "Zoom to Selection End" sometime. 

If so we could use  CTRL + SHIFT + [ and CTRL + SHIFT + ]  for 
those. 



Gale 

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Martyn S. <mar...@gm...>]

On 24/04/2013 00:15, Gale Andrews wrote:
<snip>
>> How about Ctrl + [ for the start of the selection and Ctrl + ] for the end?
>> Open and close square brackets suggest the start and end of something,
>> and have a visual similarity with the start and end of the selection.
>
> +1 that seems a good choice.

+1 from me too.

Martyn

> The only thing I can perhaps see against CTRL + [  and CTRL + ]
> is that someone might argue for those if we implement "Zoom to
> Selection Start" and "Zoom to Selection End" sometime.
>
> If so we could use  CTRL + SHIFT + [ and CTRL + SHIFT + ]  for
> those.
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...>]

On 23 April 2013 22:43, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote:
>
> | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
> | Tue, 23 Apr 2013 22:07:41 +0100
> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
>> On 28 February 2013 01:53, Martyn Shaw <mar...@gm...> wrote:
>> > Hi George
>> >
>> > Thanks for your patch, which I have committed as-is.  Others may well
>> > like to change that but I think it is progress on what we had, so I
>> > put it in.  We possibly have too many menu items already, but 'View'
>> > isn't as long as some.
>> >
>> > TTFN
>> > Martyn
>>
>> I'd like to suggest a slight modification to this feature.
>>
>> The current View menu order is a bit bizarre.
>> Within the first section we have:
>>
>> Zoom In  (Ctrl+1)
>> Zoom Normal  (Ctrl+2)
>> Zoom Out  (Ctrl+3)
>> Fit in Window  (Ctrl+F)
>> Fit Vertically  (Shift+Ctrl+F)
>> Zoom to Selection  (Ctrl+E)
>> Go to Selection Start  (Ctrl+4)
>> Go to Selection End  (Ctrl+5)
>>
>> My suggestion is to put them into order of the default shortcuts:
>>
>> Zoom In  (Ctrl+1)
>> Zoom Normal  (Ctrl+2)
>> Zoom Out  (Ctrl+3)
>> Go to Selection Start  (Ctrl+4)
>> Go to Selection End  (Ctrl+5)
>> Zoom to Selection  (Ctrl+E)
>> Fit in Window  (Ctrl+F)
>> Fit Vertically  (Shift+Ctrl+F)
>>
>>
>> I've attached a patch.
>>
>> Steve
>
> Thanks, Steve.
>
> I think it's a slight improvement, but I still question using
> CTRL + number for shortcuts that are not zoom shortcuts.
>
> For example, CTRL + SHIFT + S would be available for
> Go to Selection Start and CTRL + SHIFT + D for Go to
> Selection End.
>
> Or less of a fingerfull, CTRL + G or CTRL + H, which takes
> the next available letters in the alphabet.
>
> Then we could keep the current menu order or perhaps:
>
> Zoom In  (Ctrl+1)
> Zoom Normal  (Ctrl+2)
> Zoom Out  (Ctrl+3)
> Zoom to Selection  (Ctrl+E)
> Fit in Window  (Ctrl+F)
> Fit Vertically  (Shift+Ctrl+F)
> Go to Selection Start  (Ctrl+G)
> Go to Selection End  (Ctrl+H)
>
> This keeps all the "Zoom", "Fit" and "Go" together and would
> have my vote.
>
> But CTRL + number is my main concern.
>

I'm not keen on "Ctrl + random-letter-just-because-it's-available"
Unless you use that shortcut every day you are not likely to remember it.

How about Ctrl + [ for the start of the selection and Ctrl + ] for the end?
Open and close square brackets suggest the start and end of something,
and have a visual similarity with the start and end of the selection.

New patch attached.

Steve



>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>> > On 23/02/2013 00:30, George Simon wrote:
>> >> Hello!
>> >>
>> >> I am an avid Audacity user and a curious student developer! I've read
>> >> some source and messages on the mailing list, and I've noticed your
>> >> nice manners and professional code! I'd love to be able to contribute
>> >> to this great project!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> One thing I have attempted for my use and your consideration:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> During editing, I come across this situation a lot:
>> >>
>> >> Inside one audio track, I'd like to cut out a sound clip that I don't
>> >> want. However, I want whatever was before and after the part I cut out
>> >> to be joined together as seamlessly as possible.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I start with making a basic selection, previewing the delete using the
>> >> very handy Play Cut Preview function a lot (keyboard shortcut: C),
>> >> whittling my selection down to exactly where I like, then making the
>> >> delete. Because this is a monotonous task, with lots of tweaking to be
>> >> made on both sides of the to-be-deleted-selection, I decided to create
>> >> two tools to make my job easier! These tools solve the problem of
>> >> being in the wrong place in the track (I.E. not at the beginning or
>> >> end of the selection) while you are all the way zoomed in working on
>> >> your selection boundaries.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Basically, I added a Go to Selection Start command and Go to Selection
>> >> End command to the view menu.
>> >>
>> >> Not only do these commands put you dead center at the start or
>> >> beginning of your selection to make it easy to tweak, but they also do
>> >> so without messing with your play position, selection boundaries, or
>> >> zoom level!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I copied and modified the OnZoomSel() function to two new functions:
>> >> OnGoSelStart(), and OnGoSelEnd(), and added the appropriate supporting
>> >> code (as far as I can tell!) in Menus.cpp and Menus.h.
>> >>
>> >> The patch is attached to the email.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Let me know what you think, and any other way I can help!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Thanks and God bless!
>> >>
>> >> George Simon

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[David B. <drb...@go...>]

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...
> wrote:

> On 23 April 2013 22:43, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Then we could keep the current menu order or perhaps:
> >
> > Zoom In  (Ctrl+1)
> > Zoom Normal  (Ctrl+2)
> > Zoom Out  (Ctrl+3)
> > Zoom to Selection  (Ctrl+E)
> > Fit in Window  (Ctrl+F)
> > Fit Vertically  (Shift+Ctrl+F)
> > Go to Selection Start  (Ctrl+G)
> > Go to Selection End  (Ctrl+H)
> >
> > This keeps all the "Zoom", "Fit" and "Go" together and would
> > have my vote.
> >
> > But CTRL + number is my main concern.
> >
>
> I'm not keen on "Ctrl + random-letter-just-because-it's-available"
> Unless you use that shortcut every day you are not likely to remember it.
>
> How about Ctrl + [ for the start of the selection and Ctrl + ] for the end?
> Open and close square brackets suggest the start and end of something,
> and have a visual similarity with the start and end of the selection.
>

Hi Steve,
As I've previously mentioned on the quality list, there's a problem with
shortcuts which include the [ and ] keys.
If someone is using a non us/uk/irish keyboard, then using audacity out of
the box, then these keystrokes don't work because the keys are in different
places on these keyboards and produce different key codes. So the user has
to reassign these shortcuts, and will probably use a different key for
convience. (Something like ctrl+[ may be impossible, since ctrl may be part
of the keystroke necessary to type the [ character).

To get round the problem of [ and ] on non us/uk/irish keyboards, I
suggested introducing additional shortcuts so users could either press [
and g or ] or h if the used us/uk/irish keyboards, and use g and h
otherwise. It appears straightforward to introduce a couple of extra
commands in audacity to do this. However, in the select sub menu on the
edit menu, only the shortcuts of one pair of commands would be seen, which
is not ideal.

Currently in my Jaws guide I suggest users of non us/uk/irish keyboards to
reassign the commands which use the  [ and ] keystrokes to use g and h.

So introducing ctrl + [ and ctrl + } would only be adding to existing
problems. But using modifer(s)+g and modifier(s)+h might be a better
option, or indeed something else.

David.

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...>]

On 24 April 2013 13:59, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, den 24.04.2013, 09:22 +0200 schrieb Joost Andrae:
>> Hi,
>>
>> just a side note:
>>
>> Why do you want to reinvent the wheel when most applications use the key
>> combination
>>
>> "Ctrl +" for zoom-in
>> and
>> "Ctrl -" for zoom-out
>
> and "Ctrl+0" for Zoom Normal
>
> --
> Benjamin Drung
> Debian & Ubuntu Developer

I like the idea of using the familiar Ctrl++, Ctrl+-, Ctrl+0 for zoom
in, out, normal (we should probably have done this initially).

For "modifier+letter" key bindings I much prefer there to be some
association between the letter and the function (Crl+A = All, Ctrl+D =
Duplicate) as this makes them much easier to remember. We have so many
key bindings that this is probably not possible (thanks David for
feedback about square brackets). Personally I find "modifier +
letter", where "letter" is unrelated to the function, to be positively
off-putting for my ability to remember it because psychologically I'm
expecting an association.

If we used Ctrl++, Ctrl+-, Ctrl+0 for zoom in, out, normal, then
Ctrl+1 and Ctrl+2 would be free (and no longer associated with "Zoom"
functions), so perhaps they could be used for "Go to Selection Start /
End"?

As "Go to Selection Start/End" will be new in Audacity 2.0.4, it would
be highly preferable to make a decision before release and then stick
with it. I think that the fact that we are adding new features to this
section of the View menu provides our best opportunity (excuse) to
change the default key bindings for Zoom to "standard" key bindings.

Steve

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Bill W. <bi...@go...>]

+1 to "standard" zoom shortcuts: Ctrl++ (zoom in), Ctrl+- (zoom out) and Ctrl+0 (zoom normal).
-- Bill

On 24/04/2013, at 9:32 AM, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote:

> On 24 April 2013 13:59, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote:
>> Am Mittwoch, den 24.04.2013, 09:22 +0200 schrieb Joost Andrae:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> just a side note:
>>> 
>>> Why do you want to reinvent the wheel when most applications use the key
>>> combination
>>> 
>>> "Ctrl +" for zoom-in
>>> and
>>> "Ctrl -" for zoom-out
>> 
>> and "Ctrl+0" for Zoom Normal
>> 
>> --
>> Benjamin Drung
>> Debian & Ubuntu Developer
> 
> I like the idea of using the familiar Ctrl++, Ctrl+-, Ctrl+0 for zoom
> in, out, normal (we should probably have done this initially).
> 
> For "modifier+letter" key bindings I much prefer there to be some
> association between the letter and the function (Crl+A = All, Ctrl+D =
> Duplicate) as this makes them much easier to remember. We have so many
> key bindings that this is probably not possible (thanks David for
> feedback about square brackets). Personally I find "modifier +
> letter", where "letter" is unrelated to the function, to be positively
> off-putting for my ability to remember it because psychologically I'm
> expecting an association.
> 
> If we used Ctrl++, Ctrl+-, Ctrl+0 for zoom in, out, normal, then
> Ctrl+1 and Ctrl+2 would be free (and no longer associated with "Zoom"
> functions), so perhaps they could be used for "Go to Selection Start /
> End"?
> 
> As "Go to Selection Start/End" will be new in Audacity 2.0.4, it would
> be highly preferable to make a decision before release and then stick
> with it. I think that the fact that we are adding new features to this
> section of the View menu provides our best opportunity (excuse) to
> change the default key bindings for Zoom to "standard" key bindings.
> 
> Steve
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Try New Relic Now & We'll Send You this Cool Shirt
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> that delivers powerful full stack analytics. Optimize and monitor your
> browser, app, & servers with just a few lines of code. Try New Relic
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Gale A. <ga...@au...>]

Summary:

I am guessing it's too late to change to "standard" zoom 
shortcuts, and it wouldn't solve the Go to Selection problem 

I'd forgotten the problem with [ and ] (thanks, David) but I 
don't think we should be afraid of using CTRL + [ and  
CTRL + ] if we think those are easiest remembered.  

There are mechanisms for user to change those.  [ and ] are 
"expected" shortcuts in a media program as far as I can 
see.  I am voting for CTRL + [ and CTRL + ]  but if possible
with CTRL + G  and CTRL + H offered as working alternatives.


| From Bill Wharrie <bi...@go...> 
| Wed, 24 Apr 2013 10:55:34 -0400
| Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
> +1 to "standard" zoom shortcuts: Ctrl++ (zoom in), Ctrl+- (zoom out) and Ctrl+0 (zoom normal).

I suspect it's too late to change, because of the impact on 
visually impaired users.  

Even if we changed, CTRL + 0 includes a "number" so I think 
it is confusing to use CTRL + 1 and CTRL + 2 for Go to 
Selection* especially when CTRL + 1 and CTRL + 2 were
previously zoom commands. 

If we want the "Go to Selection Start/End" shortcuts to have 
an "associated" letter, we have CTRL + SHIFT + S for Go to 
Selection Start and CTRL + SHIFT + D for Go to Selection End. 

Personally I think CTRL + G and CTRL + H are much more 
comfortable if you want to use these shortcuts often. I can
remember them if I look at the menu and see that those 
two letters follow on from others in that menu.  

CTRL + , has an issue in that Mac maps CTRL to COMMAND 
and uses COMMAND + , to open Preferences. 

A few other commands already allow multiple bindings but 
only show one in the menu, for example Delete. So I don't think
that should stop us considering CTRL + G/ CTRL + [ and 
CTRL + H/CTRL + ] as dual alternatives. If so I think CTRL + [
and CTRL + ] should be the ones shown in the menu because 
the majority of our users use English. 

This assumes we could not show both bindings in the menu, 
which would be better. 

And as I pointed out before, there should be no reason 
longer term that we could not provide locale-specific keyboard
shortcuts that load preferred alternatives for that locale. 
So again I don't think we should be scared of using CTRL + [ and 
CTRL + ] if we want to.  



Gale 

> 
> On 24/04/2013, at 9:32 AM, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote:
> 
> > On 24 April 2013 13:59, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote:
> >> Am Mittwoch, den 24.04.2013, 09:22 +0200 schrieb Joost Andrae:
> >>> Hi,
> >>> 
> >>> just a side note:
> >>> 
> >>> Why do you want to reinvent the wheel when most applications use the key
> >>> combination
> >>> 
> >>> "Ctrl +" for zoom-in
> >>> and
> >>> "Ctrl -" for zoom-out
> >> 
> >> and "Ctrl+0" for Zoom Normal
> >> 
> >> --
> >> Benjamin Drung
> >> Debian & Ubuntu Developer
> > 
> > I like the idea of using the familiar Ctrl++, Ctrl+-, Ctrl+0 for zoom
> > in, out, normal (we should probably have done this initially).
> > 
> > For "modifier+letter" key bindings I much prefer there to be some
> > association between the letter and the function (Crl+A = All, Ctrl+D =
> > Duplicate) as this makes them much easier to remember. We have so many
> > key bindings that this is probably not possible (thanks David for
> > feedback about square brackets). Personally I find "modifier +
> > letter", where "letter" is unrelated to the function, to be positively
> > off-putting for my ability to remember it because psychologically I'm
> > expecting an association.
> > 
> > If we used Ctrl++, Ctrl+-, Ctrl+0 for zoom in, out, normal, then
> > Ctrl+1 and Ctrl+2 would be free (and no longer associated with "Zoom"
> > functions), so perhaps they could be used for "Go to Selection Start /
> > End"?
> > 
> > As "Go to Selection Start/End" will be new in Audacity 2.0.4, it would
> > be highly preferable to make a decision before release and then stick
> > with it. I think that the fact that we are adding new features to this
> > section of the View menu provides our best opportunity (excuse) to
> > change the default key bindings for Zoom to "standard" key bindings.
> > 
> > Steve

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Vaughan J. <va...@au...>]

On 4/24/2013 6:32 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
> On 24 April 2013 13:59, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote:
>> Am Mittwoch, den 24.04.2013, 09:22 +0200 schrieb Joost Andrae:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> just a side note:
>>>
>>> Why do you want to reinvent the wheel when most applications use the key
>>> combination
>>>
>>> "Ctrl +" for zoom-in
>>> and
>>> "Ctrl -" for zoom-out
>>
>> and "Ctrl+0" for Zoom Normal

Thanks for bringing this up, Joost, and adding to it, Benjamin.


>>
>> ...
> I like the idea of using the familiar Ctrl++, Ctrl+-, Ctrl+0 for zoom
> in, out, normal (we should probably have done this initially).

Well, that was done about 13 years ago, before Ctrl++, Ctrl+-, Ctrl+0 
were so standard as they are now.


> ...
>
> If we used Ctrl++, Ctrl+-, Ctrl+0 for zoom in, out, normal, then
> Ctrl+1 and Ctrl+2 would be free (and no longer associated with "Zoom"
> functions), so perhaps they could be used for "Go to Selection Start /
> End"?

I'm +1 on this.

Probably need a pref to use the old way, for people who are used to that.


>
> As "Go to Selection Start/End" will be new in Audacity 2.0.4, it would
> be highly preferable to make a decision before release and then stick
> with it.

+1

- V


>I think that the fact that we are adding new features to this
> section of the View menu provides our best opportunity (excuse) to
> change the default key bindings for Zoom to "standard" key bindings.
>
> Steve

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Martyn S. <mar...@gm...>]

On 24/04/2013 14:32, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
> On 24 April 2013 13:59, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote:
>> Am Mittwoch, den 24.04.2013, 09:22 +0200 schrieb Joost Andrae:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> just a side note:
>>>
>>> Why do you want to reinvent the wheel when most applications use the key
>>> combination
>>>
>>> "Ctrl +" for zoom-in
>>> and
>>> "Ctrl -" for zoom-out
>>
>> and "Ctrl+0" for Zoom Normal
>>
>> --
>> Benjamin Drung
>> Debian & Ubuntu Developer
>
> I like the idea of using the familiar Ctrl++, Ctrl+-, Ctrl+0 for zoom
> in, out, normal (we should probably have done this initially).

Let's do that, and follow the main-stream.  Much less painful, from a 
user perspective.

> For "modifier+letter" key bindings I much prefer there to be some
> association between the letter and the function (Crl+A = All, Ctrl+D =
> Duplicate) as this makes them much easier to remember.

+1

But changing them is a PITA for users.  (I still have problems 
pressing Ctrl+Alt+Del as a result of using earlier DOS machines.) 
Let's do a load of them at once.

  We have so many
> key bindings that this is probably not possible (thanks David for
> feedback about square brackets). Personally I find "modifier +
> letter", where "letter" is unrelated to the function, to be positively
> off-putting for my ability to remember it because psychologically I'm
> expecting an association.

+1

> If we used Ctrl++, Ctrl+-, Ctrl+0 for zoom in, out, normal, then
> Ctrl+1 and Ctrl+2 would be free (and no longer associated with "Zoom"
> functions), so perhaps they could be used for "Go to Selection Start /
> End"?

I prefer the Ctrl + [ / ], but I'm not passionate.

> As "Go to Selection Start/End" will be new in Audacity 2.0.4, it would
> be highly preferable to make a decision before release and then stick
> with it.

+1

  I think that the fact that we are adding new features to this
> section of the View menu provides our best opportunity (excuse) to
> change the default key bindings for Zoom to "standard" key bindings.

Indeed.  We shouldn't be making this type of changes very often, and 
this would be a good excuse.  Let's make our best efforts at a 
reasonable (and memorable) set of keys.

Martyn

> Steve
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Try New Relic Now & We'll Send You this Cool Shirt
> New Relic is the only SaaS-based application performance monitoring service
> that delivers powerful full stack analytics. Optimize and monitor your
> browser, app, & servers with just a few lines of code. Try New Relic
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> _______________________________________________
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> aud...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...>]

Sorry for the long post but I think context is relevant - skip to
bottom for new message.

On 26 April 2013 01:10, Martyn Shaw <mar...@gm...> wrote:
>
>
> On 24/04/2013 14:32, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>
>> On 24 April 2013 13:59, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Am Mittwoch, den 24.04.2013, 09:22 +0200 schrieb Joost Andrae:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> just a side note:
>>>>
>>>> Why do you want to reinvent the wheel when most applications use the key
>>>> combination
>>>>
>>>> "Ctrl +" for zoom-in
>>>> and
>>>> "Ctrl -" for zoom-out
>>>
>>>
>>> and "Ctrl+0" for Zoom Normal
>>>
>>> --
>>> Benjamin Drung
>>> Debian & Ubuntu Developer
>>
>>
>> I like the idea of using the familiar Ctrl++, Ctrl+-, Ctrl+0 for zoom
>> in, out, normal (we should probably have done this initially).
>
>
> Let's do that, and follow the main-stream.  Much less painful, from a user
> perspective.
>
>
>> For "modifier+letter" key bindings I much prefer there to be some
>> association between the letter and the function (Crl+A = All, Ctrl+D =
>> Duplicate) as this makes them much easier to remember.
>
>
> +1
>
> But changing them is a PITA for users.  (I still have problems pressing
> Ctrl+Alt+Del as a result of using earlier DOS machines.) Let's do a load of
> them at once.
>
>
>  We have so many
>>
>> key bindings that this is probably not possible (thanks David for
>> feedback about square brackets). Personally I find "modifier +
>> letter", where "letter" is unrelated to the function, to be positively
>> off-putting for my ability to remember it because psychologically I'm
>> expecting an association.
>
>
> +1
>
>
>> If we used Ctrl++, Ctrl+-, Ctrl+0 for zoom in, out, normal, then
>> Ctrl+1 and Ctrl+2 would be free (and no longer associated with "Zoom"
>> functions), so perhaps they could be used for "Go to Selection Start /
>> End"?
>
>
> I prefer the Ctrl + [ / ], but I'm not passionate.
>
>
>> As "Go to Selection Start/End" will be new in Audacity 2.0.4, it would
>> be highly preferable to make a decision before release and then stick
>> with it.
>
>
> +1
>
>
>  I think that the fact that we are adding new features to this
>>
>> section of the View menu provides our best opportunity (excuse) to
>> change the default key bindings for Zoom to "standard" key bindings.
>
>
> Indeed.  We shouldn't be making this type of changes very often, and this
> would be a good excuse.  Let's make our best efforts at a reasonable (and
> memorable) set of keys.
>
> Martyn
>
>> Steve

I presume that "mainstream" means Ctrl++ for Zoom In, Ctrl+- for Zoom
Out and Ctrl+0 for Zoom Normal.

Testing in Firefox on Linux, Zoom In can be:

Ctrl+ "Number Pad +"
Ctrl + "=" (lower case "+")
Ctrl+ "Shift+=" (upper case "+")
There is no "+" key on most (any?) keyboards, other than upper case
"=" and "Number Pad +".

However, I expect that we would want the View menu to say (default):
Zoom In                   Ctrl++
Zoom Out                 Ctrl+-
Zoom Normal            Ctrl+0
Zoom to Selection     Ctrl+E
Fit Window                Ctrl+F
Fit Vertically              Shift+Ctrl+F
Go to Selection Start  Ctrl+[
Go to Selection End   Ctrl+]

and have additional key bindings for Zoom In:
Ctrl+=
Ctrl+Shift+=
Ctrl+NumPad Add

and additional key bindings for Go to Selection Start/End
Ctrl+Shift+G
Ctrl+Shift+H

The "Ctrl++" default is a bit weird - because there is no "+" key,
this is in effect a "dummy" binding (does nothing), but to allow for
users changing the defaults it must still bind to the actual Zoom In
function. If a user changes this key binding, then there is no way
they can change it back to Ctrl++ other than by resetting it to its
default (it is not possible to type Ctrl++ due to the absence of a "+"
key).

The "alternative" key bindings are listed in "Preferences > Keyboard >
View" with numbers appended to the command name.
Example:
Zoom In key 2     Ctrl+NUMPAD_ADD
Zoom In key 3     Ctrl+Shift+=

The attached patch implements the above and it works here (Linux),
though I don't know how other OS's will respond to the "dummy"
binding.
Assuming that it works on other OS's, is this the behaviour that we want?

Steve

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[David B. <drb...@go...>]

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Steve the Fiddle
<ste...@gm...>wrote:

>
>
> The "Ctrl++" default is a bit weird - because there is no "+" key,
> this is in effect a "dummy" binding (does nothing), but to allow for
> users changing the defaults it must still bind to the actual Zoom In
> function. If a user changes this key binding, then there is no way
> they can change it back to Ctrl++ other than by resetting it to its
> default (it is not possible to type Ctrl++ due to the absence of a "+"
> key).
>

Hi Steve,
I haven't tried this patch, but using audacity on windows, there isn't a
problem with assigning the shortcut ctrl++ to a command.
The shortcuts in audacity use key codes, See for eg:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/windows/desktop/dd375731(v=vs.85).aspx
These aren't necessarily the same as the label on the key. So on an english
keyboard, if you press the = key you get the key code for plus, and on a
danish keyboard if you press the + key, then you get the same key code.
So on windows, using audacity, I can set up a shortcut for ctrl++ which
works using either an english or danish keyboard.
I presume from you post, that there isn't the same nice behaviour on linux.

David.

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Gale A. <ga...@au...>]

The patch compiles on Windows, and thanks to Steve for his 
efforts to date. 

As I said in my first post, personally I much prefer CTRL++, 
CTRL+- and CTRL+0 because I happen to zoom quite a lot in 
Firefox and I sometimes try to use those shortcuts in Audacity 
in error, or try the Audacity shortcuts in Firefox.  

But surely we don't want to break users' existing default zoom 
shortcuts when they open 2.0.4. Can we not still allow CTRL +1, 
CTRL + 2 and CTRL + 3  as extra zoom keys? 

On Win 7, I cannot set CTRL + = in Audacity Keyboard Prefs; 
it is seen in the text box as CTRL + +.  In all the other 
(non-Widgets) programs I have tried, entering CTRL with =
shows in the entry box and menu as CTRL + =.  I think the 
Audacity behaviour is probably "nicer". Perhaps the fact that
CTRL + = can't be set on Windows should be commented in the 
code, if nothing else. 

Do we know what happens on Mac or do you need me to try the 
patch there? 



Gale 



| From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> 
| Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:59:20 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
|  > On 26 April 2013 15:21, David Bailes <drb...@go...> wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The "Ctrl++" default is a bit weird - because there is no "+" key,
> >> this is in effect a "dummy" binding (does nothing), but to allow for
> >> users changing the defaults it must still bind to the actual Zoom In
> >> function. If a user changes this key binding, then there is no way
> >> they can change it back to Ctrl++ other than by resetting it to its
> >> default (it is not possible to type Ctrl++ due to the absence of a "+"
> >> key).
> >
> >
> > Hi Steve,
> > I haven't tried this patch, but using audacity on windows, there isn't a
> > problem with assigning the shortcut ctrl++ to a command.
> > The shortcuts in audacity use key codes, See for eg:
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/windows/desktop/dd375731(v=vs.85).aspx
> > These aren't necessarily the same as the label on the key. So on an english
> > keyboard, if you press the = key you get the key code for plus, and on a
> > danish keyboard if you press the + key, then you get the same key code.
> > So on windows, using audacity, I can set up a shortcut for ctrl++ which
> > works using either an english or danish keyboard.
> > I presume from you post, that there isn't the same nice behaviour on linux.
> >
> > David.
> 
> To clarify, If you open "Edit > Preferences > Keyboard", are you able
> to set a key binding as "Ctrl + +" so that it is displayed as "Ctrl +
> +"?
> [Update] I've just tried this myself on Windows XP and I see what you
> mean. No that does not happen on Linux.
> On Linux, if I set a key binding to Ctrl+= then it shows as Ctrl+= not
> as Ctrl++.
> 
> I think the patch should still work, but obviously it will need
> testing on all platforms.
> 
> Do we want to make the options OS specific so as to avoid unnecessary
> duplicate key bindings on those platforms that do not support
> different bindings for + and =, or do we want the options to be
> consistent across platforms even though "=" is not available on
> English Windows keyboards?
> 
> Steve

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...>]

On 26 April 2013 21:27, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote:
>
> The patch compiles on Windows, and thanks to Steve for his
> efforts to date.
>
> As I said in my first post, personally I much prefer CTRL++,
> CTRL+- and CTRL+0 because I happen to zoom quite a lot in
> Firefox and I sometimes try to use those shortcuts in Audacity
> in error, or try the Audacity shortcuts in Firefox.
>
> But surely we don't want to break users' existing default zoom
> shortcuts when they open 2.0.4. Can we not still allow CTRL +1,
> CTRL + 2 and CTRL + 3  as extra zoom keys?
>
> On Win 7, I cannot set CTRL + = in Audacity Keyboard Prefs;
> it is seen in the text box as CTRL + +.  In all the other
> (non-Widgets) programs I have tried, entering CTRL with =
> shows in the entry box and menu as CTRL + =.  I think the
> Audacity behaviour is probably "nicer". Perhaps the fact that
> CTRL + = can't be set on Windows should be commented in the
> code, if nothing else.
>
> Do we know what happens on Mac or do you need me to try the
> patch there?
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>
> | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
> | Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:59:20 +0100
> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
> |  > On 26 April 2013 15:21, David Bailes <drb...@go...> wrote:
>> > On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The "Ctrl++" default is a bit weird - because there is no "+" key,
>> >> this is in effect a "dummy" binding (does nothing), but to allow for
>> >> users changing the defaults it must still bind to the actual Zoom In
>> >> function. If a user changes this key binding, then there is no way
>> >> they can change it back to Ctrl++ other than by resetting it to its
>> >> default (it is not possible to type Ctrl++ due to the absence of a "+"
>> >> key).
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Steve,
>> > I haven't tried this patch, but using audacity on windows, there isn't a
>> > problem with assigning the shortcut ctrl++ to a command.
>> > The shortcuts in audacity use key codes, See for eg:
>> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/windows/desktop/dd375731(v=vs.85).aspx
>> > These aren't necessarily the same as the label on the key. So on an english
>> > keyboard, if you press the = key you get the key code for plus, and on a
>> > danish keyboard if you press the + key, then you get the same key code.
>> > So on windows, using audacity, I can set up a shortcut for ctrl++ which
>> > works using either an english or danish keyboard.
>> > I presume from you post, that there isn't the same nice behaviour on linux.
>> >
>> > David.
>>
>> To clarify, If you open "Edit > Preferences > Keyboard", are you able
>> to set a key binding as "Ctrl + +" so that it is displayed as "Ctrl +
>> +"?
>> [Update] I've just tried this myself on Windows XP and I see what you
>> mean. No that does not happen on Linux.
>> On Linux, if I set a key binding to Ctrl+= then it shows as Ctrl+= not
>> as Ctrl++.
>>
>> I think the patch should still work, but obviously it will need
>> testing on all platforms.
>>
>> Do we want to make the options OS specific so as to avoid unnecessary
>> duplicate key bindings on those platforms that do not support
>> different bindings for + and =, or do we want the options to be
>> consistent across platforms even though "=" is not available on
>> English Windows keyboards?
>>
>> Steve
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Try New Relic Now & We'll Send You this Cool Shirt
> New Relic is the only SaaS-based application performance monitoring service
> that delivers powerful full stack analytics. Optimize and monitor your
> browser, app, & servers with just a few lines of code. Try New Relic
> and get this awesome Nerd Life shirt! http://p.sf.net/sfu/newrelic_d2d_apr
> _______________________________________________
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> Aud...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...>]

On 26 April 2013 22:07, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote:
> On 26 April 2013 21:27, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote:
>>
>> The patch compiles on Windows, and thanks to Steve for his
>> efforts to date.
>>
>> As I said in my first post, personally I much prefer CTRL++,
>> CTRL+- and CTRL+0 because I happen to zoom quite a lot in
>> Firefox and I sometimes try to use those shortcuts in Audacity
>> in error, or try the Audacity shortcuts in Firefox.
>>
>> But surely we don't want to break users' existing default zoom
>> shortcuts when they open 2.0.4. Can we not still allow CTRL +1,
>> CTRL + 2 and CTRL + 3  as extra zoom keys?
>>
>> On Win 7, I cannot set CTRL + = in Audacity Keyboard Prefs;
>> it is seen in the text box as CTRL + +.  In all the other
>> (non-Widgets) programs I have tried, entering CTRL with =
>> shows in the entry box and menu as CTRL + =.  I think the
>> Audacity behaviour is probably "nicer". Perhaps the fact that
>> CTRL + = can't be set on Windows should be commented in the
>> code, if nothing else.
>>
>> Do we know what happens on Mac or do you need me to try the
>> patch there?

No idea what happens on Mac, so if you have time, please do.

Steve

>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>
>> | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
>> | Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:59:20 +0100
>> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
>> |  > On 26 April 2013 15:21, David Bailes <drb...@go...> wrote:
>>> > On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> The "Ctrl++" default is a bit weird - because there is no "+" key,
>>> >> this is in effect a "dummy" binding (does nothing), but to allow for
>>> >> users changing the defaults it must still bind to the actual Zoom In
>>> >> function. If a user changes this key binding, then there is no way
>>> >> they can change it back to Ctrl++ other than by resetting it to its
>>> >> default (it is not possible to type Ctrl++ due to the absence of a "+"
>>> >> key).
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hi Steve,
>>> > I haven't tried this patch, but using audacity on windows, there isn't a
>>> > problem with assigning the shortcut ctrl++ to a command.
>>> > The shortcuts in audacity use key codes, See for eg:
>>> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/windows/desktop/dd375731(v=vs.85).aspx
>>> > These aren't necessarily the same as the label on the key. So on an english
>>> > keyboard, if you press the = key you get the key code for plus, and on a
>>> > danish keyboard if you press the + key, then you get the same key code.
>>> > So on windows, using audacity, I can set up a shortcut for ctrl++ which
>>> > works using either an english or danish keyboard.
>>> > I presume from you post, that there isn't the same nice behaviour on linux.
>>> >
>>> > David.
>>>
>>> To clarify, If you open "Edit > Preferences > Keyboard", are you able
>>> to set a key binding as "Ctrl + +" so that it is displayed as "Ctrl +
>>> +"?
>>> [Update] I've just tried this myself on Windows XP and I see what you
>>> mean. No that does not happen on Linux.
>>> On Linux, if I set a key binding to Ctrl+= then it shows as Ctrl+= not
>>> as Ctrl++.
>>>
>>> I think the patch should still work, but obviously it will need
>>> testing on all platforms.
>>>
>>> Do we want to make the options OS specific so as to avoid unnecessary
>>> duplicate key bindings on those platforms that do not support
>>> different bindings for + and =, or do we want the options to be
>>> consistent across platforms even though "=" is not available on
>>> English Windows keyboards?
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Try New Relic Now & We'll Send You this Cool Shirt
>> New Relic is the only SaaS-based application performance monitoring service
>> that delivers powerful full stack analytics. Optimize and monitor your
>> browser, app, & servers with just a few lines of code. Try New Relic
>> and get this awesome Nerd Life shirt! http://p.sf.net/sfu/newrelic_d2d_apr
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> Aud...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Gale A. <ga...@au...>]

| From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> 
| Fri, 26 Apr 2013 22:08:40 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
> On 26 April 2013 22:07, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote:
> > On 26 April 2013 21:27, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote:
> >>
> >> The patch compiles on Windows, and thanks to Steve for his
> >> efforts to date.
> >>
> >> As I said in my first post, personally I much prefer CTRL++,
> >> CTRL+- and CTRL+0 because I happen to zoom quite a lot in
> >> Firefox and I sometimes try to use those shortcuts in Audacity
> >> in error, or try the Audacity shortcuts in Firefox.
> >>
> >> But surely we don't want to break users' existing default zoom
> >> shortcuts when they open 2.0.4. Can we not still allow CTRL +1,
> >> CTRL + 2 and CTRL + 3  as extra zoom keys?
> >>
> >> On Win 7, I cannot set CTRL + = in Audacity Keyboard Prefs;
> >> it is seen in the text box as CTRL + +.  In all the other
> >> (non-Widgets) programs I have tried, entering CTRL with =
> >> shows in the entry box and menu as CTRL + =.  I think the
> >> Audacity behaviour is probably "nicer". Perhaps the fact that
> >> CTRL + = can't be set on Windows should be commented in the
> >> code, if nothing else.
> >>
> >> Do we know what happens on Mac or do you need me to try the
> >> patch there?
> 
> No idea what happens on Mac, so if you have time, please do.

I'd strongly prefer to try a patch that does not break the existing
longstanding shortcuts. 

It's good that we are flexible enough to change but if so the change 
should be implemented flexibly, IMHO. 

There are only four votes on Feature Requests asking for this change to 
the zoom shortcuts (plus ourselves who would find it more convenient,
but we are all quite capable of changing the shortcuts). 



Gale 



> >>
> >> | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
> >> | Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:59:20 +0100
> >> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
> >> |  > On 26 April 2013 15:21, David Bailes <drb...@go...> wrote:
> >>> > On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The "Ctrl++" default is a bit weird - because there is no "+" key,
> >>> >> this is in effect a "dummy" binding (does nothing), but to allow for
> >>> >> users changing the defaults it must still bind to the actual Zoom In
> >>> >> function. If a user changes this key binding, then there is no way
> >>> >> they can change it back to Ctrl++ other than by resetting it to its
> >>> >> default (it is not possible to type Ctrl++ due to the absence of a "+"
> >>> >> key).
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > Hi Steve,
> >>> > I haven't tried this patch, but using audacity on windows, there isn't a
> >>> > problem with assigning the shortcut ctrl++ to a command.
> >>> > The shortcuts in audacity use key codes, See for eg:
> >>> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/windows/desktop/dd375731(v=vs.85).aspx
> >>> > These aren't necessarily the same as the label on the key. So on an english
> >>> > keyboard, if you press the = key you get the key code for plus, and on a
> >>> > danish keyboard if you press the + key, then you get the same key code.
> >>> > So on windows, using audacity, I can set up a shortcut for ctrl++ which
> >>> > works using either an english or danish keyboard.
> >>> > I presume from you post, that there isn't the same nice behaviour on linux.
> >>> >
> >>> > David.
> >>>
> >>> To clarify, If you open "Edit > Preferences > Keyboard", are you able
> >>> to set a key binding as "Ctrl + +" so that it is displayed as "Ctrl +
> >>> +"?
> >>> [Update] I've just tried this myself on Windows XP and I see what you
> >>> mean. No that does not happen on Linux.
> >>> On Linux, if I set a key binding to Ctrl+= then it shows as Ctrl+= not
> >>> as Ctrl++.
> >>>
> >>> I think the patch should still work, but obviously it will need
> >>> testing on all platforms.
> >>>
> >>> Do we want to make the options OS specific so as to avoid unnecessary
> >>> duplicate key bindings on those platforms that do not support
> >>> different bindings for + and =, or do we want the options to be
> >>> consistent across platforms even though "=" is not available on
> >>> English Windows keyboards?
> >>>
> >>> Steve

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...>]

On 26 April 2013 22:29, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote:
>
> | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
> | Fri, 26 Apr 2013 22:08:40 +0100
> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
>> On 26 April 2013 22:07, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote:
>> > On 26 April 2013 21:27, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The patch compiles on Windows, and thanks to Steve for his
>> >> efforts to date.
>> >>
>> >> As I said in my first post, personally I much prefer CTRL++,
>> >> CTRL+- and CTRL+0 because I happen to zoom quite a lot in
>> >> Firefox and I sometimes try to use those shortcuts in Audacity
>> >> in error, or try the Audacity shortcuts in Firefox.
>> >>
>> >> But surely we don't want to break users' existing default zoom
>> >> shortcuts when they open 2.0.4. Can we not still allow CTRL +1,
>> >> CTRL + 2 and CTRL + 3  as extra zoom keys?
>> >>
>> >> On Win 7, I cannot set CTRL + = in Audacity Keyboard Prefs;
>> >> it is seen in the text box as CTRL + +.  In all the other
>> >> (non-Widgets) programs I have tried, entering CTRL with =
>> >> shows in the entry box and menu as CTRL + =.  I think the
>> >> Audacity behaviour is probably "nicer". Perhaps the fact that
>> >> CTRL + = can't be set on Windows should be commented in the
>> >> code, if nothing else.
>> >>
>> >> Do we know what happens on Mac or do you need me to try the
>> >> patch there?
>>
>> No idea what happens on Mac, so if you have time, please do.
>
> I'd strongly prefer to try a patch that does not break the existing
> longstanding shortcuts.
>
> It's good that we are flexible enough to change but if so the change
> should be implemented flexibly, IMHO.
>
> There are only four votes on Feature Requests asking for this change to
> the zoom shortcuts (plus ourselves who would find it more convenient,
> but we are all quite capable of changing the shortcuts).

The patch should not override user custom key bindings, (so that is
one thing that needs to be tested).

It is "flexible" in the sense that if a user prefers the old key
bindings they can set them as custom bindings (and they should stick).

We could perhaps provide Ctrl+1,2,3 as additional alternative key
bindings, so that the old key bindings are preserved even though the
default "primary" (listed in the menu) key bindings have changed. If
the most recent patch works, then it is simple to add additional key
bindings. I'm not convinced that even more alternative keys are a good
idea but we can discuss that in due course. At this stage I am more
interested in whether the mechanism works as intended on all
platforms.

If the patch works as intended, then we can discuss whether we want to
introduce changes to the key bindings incrementally, or make the
change now in one go and stick with it. If the patch does not work as
intended then work needs to be done and there's little benefit to
further discussion until we have a mechanism that works. It would
therefore be very useful if someone could test on Mac.

Steve


>
> Gale
>
>
>
>> >>
>> >> | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
>> >> | Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:59:20 +0100
>> >> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
>> >> |  > On 26 April 2013 15:21, David Bailes <drb...@go...> wrote:
>> >>> > On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
>> >>> > wrote:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> The "Ctrl++" default is a bit weird - because there is no "+" key,
>> >>> >> this is in effect a "dummy" binding (does nothing), but to allow for
>> >>> >> users changing the defaults it must still bind to the actual Zoom In
>> >>> >> function. If a user changes this key binding, then there is no way
>> >>> >> they can change it back to Ctrl++ other than by resetting it to its
>> >>> >> default (it is not possible to type Ctrl++ due to the absence of a "+"
>> >>> >> key).
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Hi Steve,
>> >>> > I haven't tried this patch, but using audacity on windows, there isn't a
>> >>> > problem with assigning the shortcut ctrl++ to a command.
>> >>> > The shortcuts in audacity use key codes, See for eg:
>> >>> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/windows/desktop/dd375731(v=vs.85).aspx
>> >>> > These aren't necessarily the same as the label on the key. So on an english
>> >>> > keyboard, if you press the = key you get the key code for plus, and on a
>> >>> > danish keyboard if you press the + key, then you get the same key code.
>> >>> > So on windows, using audacity, I can set up a shortcut for ctrl++ which
>> >>> > works using either an english or danish keyboard.
>> >>> > I presume from you post, that there isn't the same nice behaviour on linux.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > David.
>> >>>
>> >>> To clarify, If you open "Edit > Preferences > Keyboard", are you able
>> >>> to set a key binding as "Ctrl + +" so that it is displayed as "Ctrl +
>> >>> +"?
>> >>> [Update] I've just tried this myself on Windows XP and I see what you
>> >>> mean. No that does not happen on Linux.
>> >>> On Linux, if I set a key binding to Ctrl+= then it shows as Ctrl+= not
>> >>> as Ctrl++.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think the patch should still work, but obviously it will need
>> >>> testing on all platforms.
>> >>>
>> >>> Do we want to make the options OS specific so as to avoid unnecessary
>> >>> duplicate key bindings on those platforms that do not support
>> >>> different bindings for + and =, or do we want the options to be
>> >>> consistent across platforms even though "=" is not available on
>> >>> English Windows keyboards?
>> >>>
>> >>> Steve
>
>
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Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Gale A. <ga...@au...>]

| From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> 
| Sat, 27 Apr 2013 09:49:40 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
> On 26 April 2013 22:29, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote:
> >
> > | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
> > | Fri, 26 Apr 2013 22:08:40 +0100
> > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
> >> On 26 April 2013 22:07, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote:
> >> > On 26 April 2013 21:27, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> The patch compiles on Windows, and thanks to Steve for his
> >> >> efforts to date.
> >> >>
> >> >> As I said in my first post, personally I much prefer CTRL++,
> >> >> CTRL+- and CTRL+0 because I happen to zoom quite a lot in
> >> >> Firefox and I sometimes try to use those shortcuts in Audacity
> >> >> in error, or try the Audacity shortcuts in Firefox.
> >> >>
> >> >> But surely we don't want to break users' existing default zoom
> >> >> shortcuts when they open 2.0.4. Can we not still allow CTRL +1,
> >> >> CTRL + 2 and CTRL + 3  as extra zoom keys?
> >> >>
> >> >> On Win 7, I cannot set CTRL + = in Audacity Keyboard Prefs;
> >> >> it is seen in the text box as CTRL + +.  In all the other
> >> >> (non-Widgets) programs I have tried, entering CTRL with =
> >> >> shows in the entry box and menu as CTRL + =.  I think the
> >> >> Audacity behaviour is probably "nicer". Perhaps the fact that
> >> >> CTRL + = can't be set on Windows should be commented in the
> >> >> code, if nothing else.
> >> >>
> >> >> Do we know what happens on Mac or do you need me to try the
> >> >> patch there?
> >>
> >> No idea what happens on Mac, so if you have time, please do.
> >
> > I'd strongly prefer to try a patch that does not break the existing
> > longstanding shortcuts.
> >
> > It's good that we are flexible enough to change but if so the change
> > should be implemented flexibly, IMHO.
> >
> > There are only four votes on Feature Requests asking for this change to
> > the zoom shortcuts (plus ourselves who would find it more convenient,
> > but we are all quite capable of changing the shortcuts).
> 
> The patch should not override user custom key bindings, (so that is
> one thing that needs to be tested).

Hi Steve, 

I am not talking about custom key bindings. There seems to me a 
much more serious problem. 

Namely, the user of 2.0.3 who has not changed the zoom shortcuts
will be able to zoom horizontally using the current, longstanding
CTRL + 1, CTRL + 2 and CTRL +3. 

When that user opens 2.0.4, CTRL + 1, CTRL + 2 and CTRL +3 
will do nothing. So the user who does not read the release notes 
or Manual (most users) will have a bad experience and I would 
expect a number of them will be writing in even if they look at 
View Menu to see what they needed to do. 

If that is what you were intending I disagree strongly with 
imposing that on users.

I think CTRL + NUMPAD_ADD and CTRL + NUMPAD_SUBTRACT are 
excellent additional zoom bindings but do we need CTRL + SHIFT + =
and CTRL + = as additional bindings at all, even on Linux? If Linux 
users decide to change the new zoom in binding then want 
"CTRL + =" back, can't they add "CTRL + =" themselves as now?

In other words, if you remove those two bindings from your patch, 
does holding CTRL and pressing the +/= key still zoom in?  


David wrote:
> I think that the patch needs to be checked on both us/uk
> keyboards  and non us/uk keyboards on all platforms.

Do you mean by changing the OS input language or actually 
using localised keyboards? The latter would mean asking 
people on the -translation list to test. 




Gale   


 
> >> >> | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
> >> >> | Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:59:20 +0100
> >> >> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
> >> >> |  > On 26 April 2013 15:21, David Bailes <drb...@go...> wrote:
> >> >>> > On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
> >> >>> > wrote:
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> The "Ctrl++" default is a bit weird - because there is no "+" key,
> >> >>> >> this is in effect a "dummy" binding (does nothing), but to allow for
> >> >>> >> users changing the defaults it must still bind to the actual Zoom In
> >> >>> >> function. If a user changes this key binding, then there is no way
> >> >>> >> they can change it back to Ctrl++ other than by resetting it to its
> >> >>> >> default (it is not possible to type Ctrl++ due to the absence of a "+"
> >> >>> >> key).
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Hi Steve,
> >> >>> > I haven't tried this patch, but using audacity on windows, there isn't a
> >> >>> > problem with assigning the shortcut ctrl++ to a command.
> >> >>> > The shortcuts in audacity use key codes, See for eg:
> >> >>> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/windows/desktop/dd375731(v=vs.85).aspx
> >> >>> > These aren't necessarily the same as the label on the key. So on an english
> >> >>> > keyboard, if you press the = key you get the key code for plus, and on a
> >> >>> > danish keyboard if you press the + key, then you get the same key code.
> >> >>> > So on windows, using audacity, I can set up a shortcut for ctrl++ which
> >> >>> > works using either an english or danish keyboard.
> >> >>> > I presume from you post, that there isn't the same nice behaviour on linux.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > David.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> To clarify, If you open "Edit > Preferences > Keyboard", are you able
> >> >>> to set a key binding as "Ctrl + +" so that it is displayed as "Ctrl +
> >> >>> +"?
> >> >>> [Update] I've just tried this myself on Windows XP and I see what you
> >> >>> mean. No that does not happen on Linux.
> >> >>> On Linux, if I set a key binding to Ctrl+= then it shows as Ctrl+= not
> >> >>> as Ctrl++.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I think the patch should still work, but obviously it will need
> >> >>> testing on all platforms.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Do we want to make the options OS specific so as to avoid unnecessary
> >> >>> duplicate key bindings on those platforms that do not support
> >> >>> different bindings for + and =, or do we want the options to be
> >> >>> consistent across platforms even though "=" is not available on
> >> >>> English Windows keyboards?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Steve

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...>]

On 26 April 2013 15:21, David Bailes <drb...@go...> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> The "Ctrl++" default is a bit weird - because there is no "+" key,
>> this is in effect a "dummy" binding (does nothing), but to allow for
>> users changing the defaults it must still bind to the actual Zoom In
>> function. If a user changes this key binding, then there is no way
>> they can change it back to Ctrl++ other than by resetting it to its
>> default (it is not possible to type Ctrl++ due to the absence of a "+"
>> key).
>
>
> Hi Steve,
> I haven't tried this patch, but using audacity on windows, there isn't a
> problem with assigning the shortcut ctrl++ to a command.
> The shortcuts in audacity use key codes, See for eg:
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/windows/desktop/dd375731(v=vs.85).aspx
> These aren't necessarily the same as the label on the key. So on an english
> keyboard, if you press the = key you get the key code for plus, and on a
> danish keyboard if you press the + key, then you get the same key code.
> So on windows, using audacity, I can set up a shortcut for ctrl++ which
> works using either an english or danish keyboard.
> I presume from you post, that there isn't the same nice behaviour on linux.
>
> David.

To clarify, If you open "Edit > Preferences > Keyboard", are you able
to set a key binding as "Ctrl + +" so that it is displayed as "Ctrl +
+"?
[Update] I've just tried this myself on Windows XP and I see what you
mean. No that does not happen on Linux.
On Linux, if I set a key binding to Ctrl+= then it shows as Ctrl+= not
as Ctrl++.

I think the patch should still work, but obviously it will need
testing on all platforms.

Do we want to make the options OS specific so as to avoid unnecessary
duplicate key bindings on those platforms that do not support
different bindings for + and =, or do we want the options to be
consistent across platforms even though "=" is not available on
English Windows keyboards?

Steve

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[David B. <drb...@go...>]

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Steve the Fiddle
<ste...@gm...>wrote:

>
>
> To clarify, If you open "Edit > Preferences > Keyboard", are you able
> to set a key binding as "Ctrl + +" so that it is displayed as "Ctrl +
> +"?
> [Update] I've just tried this myself on Windows XP and I see what you
> mean. No that does not happen on Linux.
> On Linux, if I set a key binding to Ctrl+= then it shows as Ctrl+= not
> as Ctrl++.
>
> I think the patch should still work, but obviously it will need
> testing on all platforms.
>
> Do we want to make the options OS specific so as to avoid unnecessary
> duplicate key bindings on those platforms that do not support
> different bindings for + and =, or do we want the options to be
> consistent across platforms even though "=" is not available on
> English Windows keyboards?
>

I think that it's working as desired on Windows, and that there's probably
a bug in the wxWidgets code on linux which means it has different behaviour
there.
I don't think that the duplicate key binding should appear for windows
users, as they are superfluous  and confusing.

In addition, I think that the patch needs to be checked on both us/uk
keyboards  and non us/uk keyboards on all platforms.

David.

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Martyn S. <mar...@gm...>]

Hi

On 26/04/2013 14:23, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
> Sorry for the long post but I think context is relevant - skip to
> bottom for new message.
>
> On 26 April 2013 01:10, Martyn Shaw <mar...@gm...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 24/04/2013 14:32, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>
>>> On 24 April 2013 13:59, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Am Mittwoch, den 24.04.2013, 09:22 +0200 schrieb Joost Andrae:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> just a side note:
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you want to reinvent the wheel when most applications use the key
>>>>> combination
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ctrl +" for zoom-in
>>>>> and
>>>>> "Ctrl -" for zoom-out
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> and "Ctrl+0" for Zoom Normal
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Benjamin Drung
>>>> Debian & Ubuntu Developer
>>>
>>>
>>> I like the idea of using the familiar Ctrl++, Ctrl+-, Ctrl+0 for zoom
>>> in, out, normal (we should probably have done this initially).
>>
>>
>> Let's do that, and follow the main-stream.  Much less painful, from a user
>> perspective.
>>
>>
>>> For "modifier+letter" key bindings I much prefer there to be some
>>> association between the letter and the function (Crl+A = All, Ctrl+D =
>>> Duplicate) as this makes them much easier to remember.
>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>> But changing them is a PITA for users.  (I still have problems pressing
>> Ctrl+Alt+Del as a result of using earlier DOS machines.) Let's do a load of
>> them at once.
>>
>>
>>   We have so many
>>>
>>> key bindings that this is probably not possible (thanks David for
>>> feedback about square brackets). Personally I find "modifier +
>>> letter", where "letter" is unrelated to the function, to be positively
>>> off-putting for my ability to remember it because psychologically I'm
>>> expecting an association.
>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>>> If we used Ctrl++, Ctrl+-, Ctrl+0 for zoom in, out, normal, then
>>> Ctrl+1 and Ctrl+2 would be free (and no longer associated with "Zoom"
>>> functions), so perhaps they could be used for "Go to Selection Start /
>>> End"?
>>
>>
>> I prefer the Ctrl + [ / ], but I'm not passionate.
>>
>>
>>> As "Go to Selection Start/End" will be new in Audacity 2.0.4, it would
>>> be highly preferable to make a decision before release and then stick
>>> with it.
>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>>   I think that the fact that we are adding new features to this
>>>
>>> section of the View menu provides our best opportunity (excuse) to
>>> change the default key bindings for Zoom to "standard" key bindings.
>>
>>
>> Indeed.  We shouldn't be making this type of changes very often, and this
>> would be a good excuse.  Let's make our best efforts at a reasonable (and
>> memorable) set of keys.
>>
>> Martyn
>>
>>> Steve
>
> I presume that "mainstream" means Ctrl++ for Zoom In, Ctrl+- for Zoom
> Out and Ctrl+0 for Zoom Normal.

I had assumed the NUMPAD versions of those were what was meant, so we 
need both.

> Testing in Firefox on Linux, Zoom In can be:
>
> Ctrl+ "Number Pad +"
> Ctrl + "=" (lower case "+")
> Ctrl+ "Shift+=" (upper case "+")
> There is no "+" key on most (any?) keyboards, other than upper case
> "=" and "Number Pad +".
>
> However, I expect that we would want the View menu to say (default):
> Zoom In                   Ctrl++
> Zoom Out                 Ctrl+-
> Zoom Normal            Ctrl+0
> Zoom to Selection     Ctrl+E
> Fit Window                Ctrl+F
> Fit Vertically              Shift+Ctrl+F
> Go to Selection Start  Ctrl+[
> Go to Selection End   Ctrl+]
>
> and have additional key bindings for Zoom In:
> Ctrl+=
> Ctrl+Shift+=
> Ctrl+NumPad Add
>
> and additional key bindings for Go to Selection Start/End
> Ctrl+Shift+G
> Ctrl+Shift+H
>
> The "Ctrl++" default is a bit weird - because there is no "+" key,
> this is in effect a "dummy" binding (does nothing), but to allow for
> users changing the defaults it must still bind to the actual Zoom In
> function. If a user changes this key binding, then there is no way
> they can change it back to Ctrl++ other than by resetting it to its
> default (it is not possible to type Ctrl++ due to the absence of a "+"
> key).

That sounds logical but actually here (Win 7) if I change the binding 
to something else then I can change it back to "Ctrl++" by pressing 
Ctrl and the +/= key.  What I can't set it to is "Ctrl+=".

> The "alternative" key bindings are listed in "Preferences > Keyboard >
> View" with numbers appended to the command name.
> Example:
> Zoom In key 2     Ctrl+NUMPAD_ADD
> Zoom In key 3     Ctrl+Shift+=

I'm not sure that the ones with an '=' are usable here (as in, on my 
machine) as I effectively can't press the '=' when Ctrl or Shift or 
Alt are down.  This behaviour in Audacity appears to be consistent 
with the results I get with the wx sample 'text'.

I think that Ctrl+NUMPAD0 is missing for Zoom Normal.

> The attached patch implements the above and it works here (Linux),
> though I don't know how other OS's will respond to the "dummy"
> binding.

It appears to work better than expected here.

> Assuming that it works on other OS's, is this the behaviour that we want?

+1 from me, but I think there should be more votes.

TTFN
Martyn

>
> Steve
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Gale A. <ga...@au...>]

| From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> 
| Sun, 28 Apr 2013 01:57:02 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to
| Selection patch
> We have OS differences.
> (testing on English UK keyboard. Linux with Gnome Desktop)
> -----------
> 
> Windows:
> Setting the key binding to "+" is activated when pressing to "=" key,
> or "Shift+=" ("+" key)
> It is not possible to set "=" as a key binding.

I think it's Widgets on Windows that is out of line here, as I indicated
before. All the non-Widgets programs I have tried on Windows that 
allow customisation of shortcuts show CTRL + = in the input box if 
you hold CTRL and press the +/= key. If you set that shortcut, the 
menu shows CTRL + = .

After all, other keys do not show the SHIFT variant of the key even
if you hold the SHIFT key with them e.g. holding SHIFT and pressing
the ( / 9 key enters SHIFT + 9 in the input box in Audacity, not 
SHIFT + ( . 

On Windows yes like Bill sees, browsers hack CTRL + + to perform
zoom in, but neither IE, Firefox or Chrome actually let you change
keyboard shortcuts without adding extensions.  

* For NUMPAD zoom, Firefox and Chrome support 
   CTRL + NUMPAD_ADD,  CTRL + NUMPAD_SUBTRACT and
   CTRL+ NUMPAD0.  

* For NUMPAD zoom, IE10 only supports CTRL + NUMPAD_ADD. 


> Martyn wrote:
> > I think that Ctrl+NUMPAD0 is missing for Zoom Normal.
> 
> Yes, I missed that (my bad).

I noticed that too, but then had second thoughts because
unlike NUMPAD_ADD and NUMPAD_SUBTRACT, NUMPAD0 
requires NUMLOCK to be on. Maybe it's not much of a 
concern? 


> The "problem key" is "+" (for Zoom In)
> Assuming that Firefox has the "standard" behaviour that we wish to
> adopt, the following key bindings are required for Zoom In
> 
> Windows:
> Ctrl+ "+"

CTRL + + does not seem "standard" on Windows to me. 
It's a hack, albeit a user-friendly one. 


> On Linux, if we want to display "Ctrl++" in the View menu, then we
> need to use a "dummy" key binding as that appears to be the only way
> to display "Ctrl++" (unless anyone knows a way round this).

That would be another hack, wouldn't it, given CTRL + + cannot 
be displayed in the Keyboard Prefs input box or the menus in 
Audacity on Mac and Linux.  

While we are at it, can all the bindings be displayed in the 
menu e.g. "Zoom In" could show CTRL+=, CTRL+NUMPAD_ADD
(for Linux)?  

This might have educational value if we want to promulgate
that the new browser-like zoom shortcuts are supported.  


> Gale wrote:
> > When that user opens 2.0.4, CTRL + 1, CTRL + 2 and CTRL +3
> > will do nothing. So the user who does not read the release notes
> > or Manual (most users) will have a bad experience and I would
> > expect a number of them will be writing in even if they look at
> > View Menu to see what they needed to do.
> >
> > If that is what you were intending I disagree strongly with
> > imposing that on users.
> 
> You want to keep Ctrl+0, Ctrl+1 and Ctrl+3 as additional alternative
> key bindings?
> Would you want that on all platforms?
> Would you want that as an interim measure while users become
> accustomed to the new default key bindings, or ad infinitum?
> If only as an interim measure, how long for?
> 
> Personally I'd expect that users that are smart enough to use keyboard
> short-cuts will be smart enough to adapt to the change

The users who write to me and feedback@ are far more 
challenged than the average Forum user, but isn't there
a principle here? 

I thought there was a policy that defers to not changing
established shortcuts. If we want to change in this case
(which I agree will be appreciated by at least some new 
users of Audacity) then I would not expect the existing
shortcuts to fail when users upgrade. 

Do you know why the existing shortcuts fail? After all, they    
are essentially a "Custom" shortcut as far as the new 
bindings are concerned. I have found no problem so far
with setting a zoom shortcut other than default in 2.0.3; 
it seems to work fine in 2.0.4. 

I don't see any need to add alternative bindings to CTRL+ 1,
CTRL +2 and CTRL + 3 (the existing bindings) if 2.0.4 actually 
respects them if the user has those set. If the only way that
we can respect them is to explicitly add them as bindings  
then I think we must add them to avoid breaking the user's 
shortcuts (cross-platform, and I guess until Audacity 3).      

Did you test removing the new Zoom In bindings that contain "="?
Are they needed on Linux to make CTRL + the +/= key work? 

 
> David wrote:
> > I think that the patch needs to be checked on both
> > us/uk keyboards  and non us/uk keyboards on all
> > platforms.
> 
> Yes I think it will need testing on localised keyboards.
> also on Mac OS X.  

I think that localised keyboards test requirement is another 
good reason why these changes have never been 
considered before. 

If this change is released you may have to do without 
extensive testing on localised keyboards. I cannot help
there, other than supply a Mac or Windows build for test
if a reliable patch can be supplied. 



Thanks


Gale 

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[David B. <drb...@go...>]

On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 10:46 PM, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...>wrote:

>
>
> I think it's Widgets on Windows that is out of line here, as I indicated
> before. All the non-Widgets programs I have tried on Windows that
> allow customisation of shortcuts show CTRL + = in the input box if
> you hold CTRL and press the +/= key. If you set that shortcut, the
> menu shows CTRL + = .
>
> After all, other keys do not show the SHIFT variant of the key even
> if you hold the SHIFT key with them e.g. holding SHIFT and pressing
> the ( / 9 key enters SHIFT + 9 in the input box in Audacity, not
> SHIFT + ( .
>
> On Windows yes like Bill sees, browsers hack CTRL + + to perform
> zoom in, but neither IE, Firefox or Chrome actually let you change
> keyboard shortcuts without adding extensions.
>

Hi Gale,
I think that wxWidgets on windows is behaving appropriately for windows.
When you press the key which includes the plus symbol, whether this is the
= key on us/uk keyboards, or the plus key on other keyboards,  the keydown
event has the  key code vk_oem_plus, and this is interpreted as +. I don't
think this is a hack.

Re: testing on non us/uk keyboards - I meant changing the operating system
setting for the language layout of the keyboard rather than having to use
an actual non us/uk keyboard.

David.

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch

[Gale A. <ga...@au...>]

| From David Bailes <drb...@go...> 
| Mon, 29 Apr 2013 13:01:41 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-quality] [Audacity-devel] Introduction and Go to Selection patch
> On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 10:46 PM, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...>wrote:
> >
> >
> > I think it's Widgets on Windows that is out of line here, as I indicated
> > before. All the non-Widgets programs I have tried on Windows that
> > allow customisation of shortcuts show CTRL + = in the input box if
> > you hold CTRL and press the +/= key. If you set that shortcut, the
> > menu shows CTRL + = .
> >
> > After all, other keys do not show the SHIFT variant of the key even
> > if you hold the SHIFT key with them e.g. holding SHIFT and pressing
> > the ( / 9 key enters SHIFT + 9 in the input box in Audacity, not
> > SHIFT + ( .
> >
> > On Windows yes like Bill sees, browsers hack CTRL + + to perform
> > zoom in, but neither IE, Firefox or Chrome actually let you change
> > keyboard shortcuts without adding extensions.
> >
> 
> Hi Gale,
> I think that wxWidgets on windows is behaving appropriately for windows.
> When you press the key which includes the plus symbol, whether this is the
> = key on us/uk keyboards, or the plus key on other keyboards,  the keydown
> event has the  key code vk_oem_plus, and this is interpreted as +. I don't
> think this is a hack. 

Hi David, 

Yes I saw earlier you linked to:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/windows/desktop/dd375731%28v=vs.85%29.aspx . 

Using a UK keyboard, even Microsoft programs display CTRL + = 
in the input box and the menu when you set a shortcut by holding 
CTRL and pressing the +/= key.  This is the sense in which what
Widgets does looks like a "hack" -  UK users who who regularly 
change shortcuts on Windows will be expecting that combination
will produce CTRL + = .  

To me it looks like non-Widgets programs are doing the "correct
thing" e.g. if I change the default input language to Dutch, then
an existing CTRL + = shortcut in a Visual Studio menu changes to 
CTRL + +. When I have actually changed the input language to
Dutch, then holding CTRL with the + key appears as CTRL ++ in
the text input box for setting the shortcut.  


> Re: testing on non us/uk keyboards - I meant changing the operating system
> setting for the language layout of the keyboard rather than having to use
> an actual non us/uk keyboard.

OK, so are non US/UK keyboards completely standard? If I find one 
Danish layout image on the web e.g.:
http://store.aramedia.com/shopimages/products/normal/kb-lpdanish.jpg ?

then all Danish layouts will be like this? For Danish, Wikipedia does
not seem to list a layout.




Gale