Thread: [Audacity-devel] Export Options WAS: (Export Multiple) Options dialog goes on top of all applicatio
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From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2008-06-21 00:37:52
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| From Jan Kolar <ko...@ma...> | Thu, 19 Jun 2008 02:07:09 +0200 | Subject: [Audacity-devel] (Export Multiple) Options dialog goes on top of all applications in windows XP > This one remains in recent built from Gale, (June 18th) > - Format "(external program)" is broken: Options does not show > anything (no action) > (from Export, Export Multiple and Export Selection dialogs) Hi LRN Is this one being looked into for us? It only broke recently and without it, any MP3 export other than CBR 128 kbps is impossible, given the MP3 Export bug. You said the individual format listings for "uncompressed" types in the export dialogue was temporary, what's the ultimate plan? How about two groupings: * WAV or AIFF (uncompressed) * Other uncompressed types Thanks Gale |
From: LRN <lr...@gm...> - 2008-06-22 08:39:27
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Gale Andrews wrote: > | From Jan Kolar<ko...@ma...> > | Thu, 19 Jun 2008 02:07:09 +0200 > | Subject: [Audacity-devel] (Export Multiple) Options dialog goes on top of all applications in windows XP > >> This one remains in recent built from Gale, (June 18th) >> - Format "(external program)" is broken: Options does not show >> anything (no action) >> (from Export, Export Multiple and Export Selection dialogs) >> I'll look into it. How does "external program" works exactly? Audacity feeds WAV to process' stdin? > You said the individual format listings for "uncompressed" > types in the export dialogue was temporary, what's the > ultimate plan? How about two groupings: > > * WAV or AIFF (uncompressed) > * Other uncompressed types > It's not for me to decide. The list of uncompressed types was just a way to demonstrate new exporting procedure (FFmpeg exporter didn't existed at the moment, and it's still not in tree even now). I think i'll just shrink the list back to one option - there's almost zero differences between "uncompressed types". Unless someone explicitly asks me to keep some of the exported types as separate entries and explains why it is necessary. |
From: Richard A. <ri...@au...> - 2008-06-22 15:37:17
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On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 13:51 +0400, LRN wrote: > I'll look into it. > How does "external program" works exactly? Audacity feeds WAV to > process' stdin? Yes, a WAV file with 16 bit data in it. Mono/Stereo depending on the project contents, project sample rate (try 'file -' as the command and show program output to see what a given project produces). For me, external program exports are working OK - I've just done a 40 minute export to Ogg Vorbis using oggenc OK. > > You said the individual format listings for "uncompressed" > > types in the export dialogue was temporary, what's the > > ultimate plan? How about two groupings: > > > > * WAV or AIFF (uncompressed) > > * Other uncompressed types > > > It's not for me to decide. The list of uncompressed types was just a way > to demonstrate new exporting procedure (FFmpeg exporter didn't existed > at the moment, and it's still not in tree even now). > I think i'll just shrink the list back to one option - there's almost > zero differences between "uncompressed types". Unless someone explicitly > asks me to keep some of the exported types as separate entries and > explains why it is necessary. I would suggest "Default WAV" pointing to 16-bit PCM WAV and "Default AIFF" pointing to 16-bit AIFF as convenience entries for people creating CDs, the rest all go into the uncompressed types entry (if people want other sorts of WAV / AIFF they would do them by clicking options from "other", I wouldn't want Default WAV to be changeable to some other bit depth, because in a lot of software there is only one sort of WAV - 16 bit. Richard |
From: LRN <lr...@gm...> - 2008-06-22 17:43:39
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Richard Ash wrote: > I would suggest "Default WAV" pointing to 16-bit PCM WAV and "Default > AIFF" pointing to 16-bit AIFF as convenience entries for people creating > CDs, the rest all go into the uncompressed types entry (if people want > other sorts of WAV / AIFF they would do them by clicking options from > "other", I wouldn't want Default WAV to be changeable to some other bit > depth, because in a lot of software there is only one sort of WAV - 16 > bit. > Done. |
From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2008-06-22 18:23:20
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| From Richard Ash <ri...@au...> | Sun, 22 Jun 2008 16:37:17 +0100 | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Export Options > On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 13:51 +0400, LRN wrote: > > I'll look into it. > > How does "external program" works exactly? Audacity feeds WAV to > > process' stdin? > > > > You said the individual format listings for "uncompressed" > > > types in the export dialogue was temporary, what's the > > > ultimate plan? How about two groupings: > > > > > > * WAV or AIFF (uncompressed) > > > * Other uncompressed types > > > > > It's not for me to decide. The list of uncompressed types was just a way > > to demonstrate new exporting procedure (FFmpeg exporter didn't existed > > at the moment, and it's still not in tree even now). > > I think i'll just shrink the list back to one option - there's almost > > zero differences between "uncompressed types". Unless someone explicitly > > asks me to keep some of the exported types as separate entries and > > explains why it is necessary. > > > I would suggest "Default WAV" pointing to 16-bit PCM WAV and "Default > AIFF" pointing to 16-bit AIFF as convenience entries for people creating > CDs, the rest all go into the uncompressed types entry (if people want > other sorts of WAV / AIFF they would do them by clicking options from > "other", I wouldn't want Default WAV to be changeable to some other bit > depth, because in a lot of software there is only one sort of WAV - 16 > bit. Yes that was my point too, a "convenience" entry for the common use case, though I don't think "Default" is a terribly good word for the menu in the case of noobs. I think some programs use terms like "CD quality" to define this (though they may be setting the sampling rate in that option too, which we don't). Or "Standard"? Do we need separate entries for WAV and AIFF though? I thought that when we just had the one "WAV, AIFF and other uncompressed types" entry, that this initialised to WAV on Windows and Linux, and to AIFF on Mac? Gale |
From: Richard A. <ri...@au...> - 2008-06-22 16:12:36
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On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 16:37 +0100, Richard Ash wrote: > > I think i'll just shrink the list back to one option - there's almost > > zero differences between "uncompressed types". Unless someone explicitly > > asks me to keep some of the exported types as separate entries and > > explains why it is necessary. At the moment there is also a bug - if you export one file, choosing WAV and selecting 32-bit encoding, it exports 32-bit data. If you then go back to do another export, then the encoding has been changed back to 16-bit, so you have to remember to keep changing it to the correct value. You didn't use to have to do this - it used to remember your format choices between exports. Richard |
From: LRN <lr...@gm...> - 2008-06-22 17:43:28
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Richard Ash wrote: > On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 16:37 +0100, Richard Ash wrote: > >>> I think i'll just shrink the list back to one option - there's almost >>> zero differences between "uncompressed types". Unless someone explicitly >>> asks me to keep some of the exported types as separate entries and >>> explains why it is necessary. >>> > > At the moment there is also a bug - if you export one file, choosing WAV > and selecting 32-bit encoding, it exports 32-bit data. If you then go > back to do another export, then the encoding has been changed back to > 16-bit, so you have to remember to keep changing it to the correct > value. You didn't use to have to do this - it used to remember your > format choices between exports. > > Fixed. |
From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2008-07-12 07:03:31
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Hi LRN I built following Martyn's suggestion of removing NoteTrack.cpp and ImportMIDI.cpp, then tried exporting some stereo MP4 (AAC) files against your fix for profile not being correctly exported. Checking the exported files in iTunes, I got: 8 kbps LC > iTunes: 18 kbps LC 16 kbps Main > iTunes: 19 kbps no profile 32 kbps SSR > null file 0 bytes 32 kbps LTP > iTunes: 22 kbps no profile Should 32 kbps per channel in Audacity end up as 64 kbps given I had a stereo file? DBPowerAmp sees the correct profile for the three files that exported, but has 0 kbps bit rate. Foobar 2000 displays all the exported profiles correctly, and displays the same bit rates as iTunes (i.e. not what Audacity exported). SSR profile also produces null files when exporting AAC. Exporting "WAV (Microsoft) 16 bit PCM" now gives 16 bit even if you choose some other sample format. I think that's correct, but also think you should grey out the OK button when choosing any of the other options, or remove them from the list. Thanks Gale |
From: LRN <lr...@gm...> - 2008-07-12 14:02:34
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Gale Andrews wrote: > 8 kbps LC> iTunes: 18 kbps LC > 16 kbps Main> iTunes: 19 kbps no profile > 32 kbps SSR> null file 0 bytes > 32 kbps LTP> iTunes: 22 kbps no profile > > Should 32 kbps per channel in Audacity end up as 64 kbps given I had > a stereo file? > > DBPowerAmp sees the correct profile for the three files that exported, > but has 0 kbps bit rate. Foobar 2000 displays all the exported profiles > correctly, and displays the same bit rates as iTunes (i.e. not what > Audacity exported). > Actually, it said "per channel", but in reality it was "per whole file", because FFmpeg is making the bitrate/channels division internally. Part of the problem is that max supported bitrate is per channel only, and it depends on samplerate. I know how to handle that, but ShuttleGui is resisting my attempts to change the data. > SSR profile also produces null files when exporting AAC. > After some digging in libfaac source code i found out that SSR is not supported. D'oh. > Exporting "WAV (Microsoft) 16 bit PCM" now gives 16 bit even if you > choose some other sample format. I think that's correct, but also think you > should grey out the OK button when choosing any of the other options, > or remove them from the list. > Fixed. |
From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2008-07-13 03:45:50
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| From LRN <lr...@gm...> | Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:02:26 +0400 | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Export Options > Gale Andrews wrote: > > 8 kbps LC> iTunes: 18 kbps LC > > 16 kbps Main> iTunes: 19 kbps no profile > > 32 kbps SSR> null file 0 bytes > > 32 kbps LTP> iTunes: 22 kbps no profile > > > > Should 32 kbps per channel in Audacity end up as 64 kbps given I had > > a stereo file? > > > > DBPowerAmp sees the correct profile for the three files that exported, > > but has 0 kbps bit rate. Foobar 2000 displays all the exported profiles > > correctly, and displays the same bit rates as iTunes (i.e. not what > > Audacity exported). > > > Actually, it said "per channel", but in reality it was "per whole file", > because FFmpeg is making the bitrate/channels division internally. > Part of the problem is that max supported bitrate is per channel only, > and it depends on samplerate. > > I know how to handle that, but ShuttleGui is resisting my attempts to > change the data. I don't know how finnicky iTunes is, but it's more important that we get the profile appearing correctly in iTunes than in other programs, because of the number of people using it. > > SSR profile also produces null files when exporting AAC. > > > After some digging in libfaac source code i found out that SSR is not > supported. D'oh. Can we remove it then if it won't work? > > Exporting "WAV (Microsoft) 16 bit PCM" now gives 16 bit even if you > > choose some other sample format. I think that's correct, but also think you > > should grey out the OK button when choosing any of the other options, > > or remove them from the list. > > > Fixed. Thanks Gale |
From: LRN <lr...@gm...> - 2008-07-13 03:55:37
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Gale Andrews wrote: > | From LRN<lr...@gm...> > | Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:02:26 +0400 > | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Export Options > >> Gale Andrews wrote: >> >>> 8 kbps LC> iTunes: 18 kbps LC >>> 16 kbps Main> iTunes: 19 kbps no profile >>> 32 kbps SSR> null file 0 bytes >>> 32 kbps LTP> iTunes: 22 kbps no profile >>> >>> Should 32 kbps per channel in Audacity end up as 64 kbps given I had >>> a stereo file? >>> >>> DBPowerAmp sees the correct profile for the three files that exported, >>> but has 0 kbps bit rate. Foobar 2000 displays all the exported profiles >>> correctly, and displays the same bit rates as iTunes (i.e. not what >>> Audacity exported). >>> >>> >> Actually, it said "per channel", but in reality it was "per whole file", >> because FFmpeg is making the bitrate/channels division internally. >> Part of the problem is that max supported bitrate is per channel only, >> and it depends on samplerate. >> >> I know how to handle that, but ShuttleGui is resisting my attempts to >> change the data. >> > > I don't know how finnicky iTunes is, but it's more important that we > get the profile appearing correctly in iTunes than in other programs, > because of the number of people using it. > >>> SSR profile also produces null files when exporting AAC. >>> >>> >> After some digging in libfaac source code i found out that SSR is not >> supported. D'oh. >> > > Can we remove it then if it won't work? > Just committed the fix.for both. It probably won't fix the iTunes compatibility, but bitrate setting works more or less correctly now and is, indeed, bit-rate per channel (damn...i forgot to change the label to "per channel" again...). Try testing it on every available bitrate, and maybe with different sample rates. I think LC is 44100-only. |
From: LRN <lr...@gm...> - 2008-07-13 06:17:11
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Gale Andrews wrote: > | From LRN<lr...@gm...> > | Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:02:26 +0400 > | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Export Options > >> Gale Andrews wrote: >> >>> 8 kbps LC> iTunes: 18 kbps LC >>> 16 kbps Main> iTunes: 19 kbps no profile >>> 32 kbps SSR> null file 0 bytes >>> 32 kbps LTP> iTunes: 22 kbps no profile >>> >>> Should 32 kbps per channel in Audacity end up as 64 kbps given I had >>> a stereo file? >>> >>> DBPowerAmp sees the correct profile for the three files that exported, >>> but has 0 kbps bit rate. Foobar 2000 displays all the exported profiles >>> correctly, and displays the same bit rates as iTunes (i.e. not what >>> Audacity exported). >>> >>> >> Actually, it said "per channel", but in reality it was "per whole file", >> because FFmpeg is making the bitrate/channels division internally. >> Part of the problem is that max supported bitrate is per channel only, >> and it depends on samplerate. >> >> I know how to handle that, but ShuttleGui is resisting my attempts to >> change the data. >> > > I don't know how finnicky iTunes is, but it's more important that we > get the profile appearing correctly in iTunes than in other programs, > because of the number of people using it. > Installed iTunes. Impressive. This is the slowest software player i ever encountered. Research results: iTunes only supports LC-AAC (no HE-AAC, no Main-AAC, no LTP-AAC). iTunes correctly displays LC-AAC files bitrate. Looks like i fixed everything, eh? |
From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2008-07-13 16:51:08
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| From LRN <lr...@gm...> | Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:17:01 +0400 | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Export Options > >> Gale Andrews wrote: > >> > >>> 8 kbps LC> iTunes: 18 kbps LC > >>> 16 kbps Main> iTunes: 19 kbps no profile > >>> 32 kbps SSR> null file 0 bytes > >>> 32 kbps LTP> iTunes: 22 kbps no profile > >>> > >>> Should 32 kbps per channel in Audacity end up as 64 kbps given I had > >>> a stereo file? > >>> > >>> DBPowerAmp sees the correct profile for the three files that exported, > >>> but has 0 kbps bit rate. Foobar 2000 displays all the exported profiles > >>> correctly, and displays the same bit rates as iTunes (i.e. not what > >>> Audacity exported). > >>> > >>> > >> Actually, it said "per channel", but in reality it was "per whole file", > >> because FFmpeg is making the bitrate/channels division internally. > >> Part of the problem is that max supported bitrate is per channel only, > >> and it depends on samplerate. > >> > >> I know how to handle that, but ShuttleGui is resisting my attempts to > >> change the data. > >> > > > > I don't know how finnicky iTunes is, but it's more important that we > > get the profile appearing correctly in iTunes than in other programs, > > because of the number of people using it. > > > > Installed iTunes. Impressive. This is the slowest software player i ever > encountered. :=) Plays with no gaps between files though, one thing in its favour. > Research results: iTunes only supports LC-AAC (no HE-AAC, no Main-AAC, > no LTP-AAC). iTunes correctly displays LC-AAC files bitrate. Thanks for checking that. > Looks like i fixed everything, eh? On the way, certainly. A few things outstanding.... * MP4 (AAC) bit rates don't seem right for higher bit rates yet. At 44100 Hz sample rate I got a 48 kbps stereo MP4 to show as 99 kbps in iTunes and Foobar (so near enough?), but stereo 96, 193 and 258 kbps files all show in Foobar and iTunes as 152 kbps * Can we have the bit rate list for AAC and MP4 (AAC) ordered lowest first as per the other formats? * Were we going to have an M4A filter so that Windows users of iTunes don't have to rename AAC to M4A before export, and Mac users of iTunes don't have to rename both AAC and MP4? * Real Audio is still a problem. Real Player, JetAudio and MPC don't understand Audacity's RA files. On my system, only VLC (which does not support Real) will play them. As Richard said, RA (like it or not) is one of the key formats. * GSM: Is the WAV version of these as compliant as can be? WMP11, MPC and iTunes won't play them and I think they should? Only QuickTime plays them on my machine, but there is a slight problem even there, a 45 seconds file only lasts 9 seconds in QuickTime. * Both Richard and I would prefer sample rates were taken out of of format options for sake of consistency. Do you see any drawbacks to this? Thanks Gale |
From: LRN <lr...@gm...> - 2008-07-13 19:08:32
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Gale Andrews wrote: > | From LRN<lr...@gm...> > | Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:17:01 +0400 > | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Export Options > >>>> Gale Andrews wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> 8 kbps LC> iTunes: 18 kbps LC >>>>> 16 kbps Main> iTunes: 19 kbps no profile >>>>> 32 kbps SSR> null file 0 bytes >>>>> 32 kbps LTP> iTunes: 22 kbps no profile >>>>> >>>>> Should 32 kbps per channel in Audacity end up as 64 kbps given I had >>>>> a stereo file? >>>>> >>>>> DBPowerAmp sees the correct profile for the three files that exported, >>>>> but has 0 kbps bit rate. Foobar 2000 displays all the exported profiles >>>>> correctly, and displays the same bit rates as iTunes (i.e. not what >>>>> Audacity exported). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Actually, it said "per channel", but in reality it was "per whole file", >>>> because FFmpeg is making the bitrate/channels division internally. >>>> Part of the problem is that max supported bitrate is per channel only, >>>> and it depends on samplerate. >>>> >>>> I know how to handle that, but ShuttleGui is resisting my attempts to >>>> change the data. >>>> >>>> >>> I don't know how finnicky iTunes is, but it's more important that we >>> get the profile appearing correctly in iTunes than in other programs, >>> because of the number of people using it. >>> >>> >> >> Installed iTunes. Impressive. This is the slowest software player i ever >> encountered. >> > > :=) Plays with no gaps between files though, one thing in its favour. > So does foobar2000. > * MP4 (AAC) bit rates don't seem right for higher bit rates yet. At > 44100 Hz sample rate I got a 48 kbps stereo MP4 to show as > 99 kbps in iTunes and Foobar (so near enough?), but stereo > 96, 193 and 258 kbps files all show in Foobar and iTunes as > 152 kbps > From faac commandline encoder help: -b <bitrate> Set average bitrate (ABR) to approximately <bitrate> kbps. (max. value 152 kbps/stereo with a 16 kHz cutoff, can be raised with a higher -c setting). -c <freq> Set the bandwidth in Hz (default: automatic, i.e. adapts maximum value to input sample rate). Should i add cutoff frequency to dialog? Or just leave things as they are? > * Can we have the bit rate list for AAC and MP4 (AAC) ordered > lowest first as per the other formats? > Yes. > * Were we going to have an M4A filter so that Windows users > of iTunes don't have to rename AAC to M4A before export, > and Mac users of iTunes don't have to rename both AAC and > MP4? > Elaborate a bit more, which filters for which platform i should make and what should they do exactly? While i had iTunes installed, it played mp4 files without problems. > * Real Audio is still a problem. Real Player, JetAudio and MPC don't > understand Audacity's RA files. On my system, only VLC (which > does not support Real) will play them. As Richard said, RA (like > it or not) is one of the key formats. > Files produced by FFmpeg can't be played either. > * GSM: Is the WAV version of these as compliant as can be? WMP11, > MPC and iTunes won't play them and I think they should? Only > QuickTime plays them on my machine, but there is a slight problem > even there, a 45 seconds file only lasts 9 seconds in QuickTime. > > Yes, they should. On the other hand, in Audacity we have libsndfile which is capable of encoding GSM-WAV. In theory. > * Both Richard and I would prefer sample rates were taken out of > of format options for sake of consistency. Do you see any drawbacks > to this? > Well, now for AAC encoding bitrate range depends on sample rate. Either i have to make the dialog aware of the AudacityProject contents, or leave as it is. For other formats removing sample rate is easier. What should be Audacity's policy when track's sample rate doesn't matches any of the sample rates supported by format? Error message? Upsampling? Downsampling? Up/Downsampling (to closest rate)? Forced resampling (for formats such as GSM which supports only one sample rate). |
From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2008-07-14 02:20:51
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| From LRN <lr...@gm...> | Sun, 13 Jul 2008 23:08:10 +0400 | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Export Options > Gale Andrews wrote: > > > * MP4 (AAC) bit rates don't seem right for higher bit rates yet. At > > 44100 Hz sample rate I got a 48 kbps stereo MP4 to show as > > 99 kbps in iTunes and Foobar (so near enough?), but stereo > > 96, 193 and 258 kbps files all show in Foobar and iTunes as > > 152 kbps > > > From faac commandline encoder help: > -b <bitrate> Set average bitrate (ABR) to approximately <bitrate> > kbps. > (max. value 152 kbps/stereo with a 16 kHz cutoff, can be raised > with a higher -c setting). > -c <freq> Set the bandwidth in Hz (default: automatic, i.e. adapts > maximum value to input sample rate). > > Should i add cutoff frequency to dialog? Or just leave things as they are? Well I guess it would be nice (defaults to 16 kHz), but given the 152 kbps maximum, do the 177 and higher kbps options serve any purpose? Or if it's easy-to-encode material, does this mean you have to choose a higher bit rate than with something harder to encode, so as to actually end up with something like 152 kbps? > > * Were we going to have an M4A filter so that Windows users > > of iTunes don't have to rename AAC to M4A before export, > > and Mac users of iTunes don't have to rename both AAC and > > MP4? > > > Elaborate a bit more, which filters for which platform i should make and > what should they do exactly? > > While i had iTunes installed, it played mp4 files without problems. > So does iTunes here, as I'm on Windows too, but the issue is with the cases I stated above (AAC on Windows, and both AAC and MP4 on Mac). I don't recall if AAC or MP4 exports have been tested on Linux, or to what extent it's an important format on Linux (you can run the Windows iTunes under Wine on Linux, so maybe most who are interested do that)? I don't know if it's really worth the confusion of three AAC export choices. If you can do it, my tentative suggestion is either of the below (and live with having to rename AAC): * leave as is for Windows, but for Mac replace "MP4 (AAC)" with "M4A (AAC)". * Or (for both platforms) have an "M4A/MP4 (AAC)" choice, defaulting to M4A, but Options has the possibility to save as MP4. I guess you'd feel "M4A (AAC)" is an inaccurate description (?) but this suggestion should avoid basic users having to rename this option on any platform. PS: I think you were going to add an extension for MOV so as to allow AAC or M4A to be renamed to MOV without a warning. > > * Real Audio is still a problem. Real Player, JetAudio and MPC don't > > understand Audacity's RA files. On my system, only VLC (which > > does not support Real) will play them. As Richard said, RA (like > > it or not) is one of the key formats. > > > Files produced by FFmpeg can't be played either. Oh dear... well I don't think this is worth having then, especially as the options now make it clear it is just an AC3 file, which will confuse some people. Could this be got working with your "Other FFmpeg-compatible files", so at least people could export AC3 in an .rm container which RealPlayer, MPC and the like could play? Presumably using a proprietary Real encoder, JetAudio has a lot of options for Streaming/Non-Streaming etc. when writing an .rm file. > > * Both Richard and I would prefer sample rates were taken out of > > of format options for sake of consistency. Do you see any drawbacks > > to this? > > > Well, now for AAC encoding bitrate range depends on sample rate. Either > i have to make the dialog aware of the AudacityProject contents, or > leave as it is. > > For other formats removing sample rate is easier. > > What should be Audacity's policy when track's sample rate doesn't > matches any of the sample rates supported by format? Error message? > Upsampling? Downsampling? Up/Downsampling (to closest rate)? Forced > resampling (for formats such as GSM which supports only one sample rate). Richard/Leland would be more expert than me here, but as I (think I) said before, what we do with MP3 is offer a dialogue when the sample rate is unsupported for the chosen bit rate. If the rate is unsupported, it offers the nearest rate below, from what I now see. Would that work for the AAC problem? The other alternative is to always choose export rate in the format options, including native Audacity formats. This is another way to be consistent (and avoid a second dialogue or error message). I suppose it would still have to be decided if the offered sample rate in the export options was totally independent of the project rate or offered a close match. I think it should be independent. PS In the AAC options, if you select a sample rate, the bit rate dropdown always loses its value and has to be reset. It does not seem to be because they are interlinked. Should they be, given bit range depends on sample rate? Gale |
From: LRN <lr...@gm...> - 2008-07-14 09:41:52
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Gale Andrews wrote: > | From LRN<lr...@gm...> > | Sun, 13 Jul 2008 23:08:10 +0400 > | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Export Options > >> Gale Andrews wrote: >> >> >>> * MP4 (AAC) bit rates don't seem right for higher bit rates yet. At >>> 44100 Hz sample rate I got a 48 kbps stereo MP4 to show as >>> 99 kbps in iTunes and Foobar (so near enough?), but stereo >>> 96, 193 and 258 kbps files all show in Foobar and iTunes as >>> 152 kbps >>> >>> >> From faac commandline encoder help: >> -b<bitrate> Set average bitrate (ABR) to approximately<bitrate> >> kbps. >> (max. value 152 kbps/stereo with a 16 kHz cutoff, can be raised >> with a higher -c setting). >> -c<freq> Set the bandwidth in Hz (default: automatic, i.e. adapts >> maximum value to input sample rate). >> >> Should i add cutoff frequency to dialog? Or just leave things as they are? >> > > Well I guess it would be nice (defaults to 16 kHz), but given the > 152 kbps maximum, do the 177 and higher kbps options serve any > purpose? Or if it's easy-to-encode material, does this mean you have > to choose a higher bit rate than with something harder to encode, so > as to actually end up with something like 152 kbps? > Curiously, setting cutoff to 16000 raises max bitrate significantly. >>> * Were we going to have an M4A filter so that Windows users >>> of iTunes don't have to rename AAC to M4A before export, >>> and Mac users of iTunes don't have to rename both AAC and >>> MP4? >>> >>> >> Elaborate a bit more, which filters for which platform i should make and >> what should they do exactly? >> >> While i had iTunes installed, it played mp4 files without problems. >> >> > So does iTunes here, as I'm on Windows too, but the issue is with the > cases I stated above (AAC on Windows, and both AAC and MP4 on Mac). > I don't recall if AAC or MP4 exports have been tested on Linux, or to > what extent it's an important format on Linux (you can run the Windows > iTunes under Wine on Linux, so maybe most who are interested do that)? > > I don't know if it's really worth the confusion of three AAC export > choices. If you can do it, my tentative suggestion is either of the > below (and live with having to rename AAC): > > * leave as is for Windows, but for Mac replace "MP4 (AAC)" with "M4A > (AAC)". > > * Or (for both platforms) have an "M4A/MP4 (AAC)" choice, defaulting to > M4A, but Options has the possibility to save as MP4. I guess you'd > feel "M4A (AAC)" is an inaccurate description (?) but this suggestion > should avoid basic users having to rename this option on any platform. > > PS: I think you were going to add an extension for MOV so as to allow > AAC or M4A to be renamed to MOV without a warning. > I'll add "m4a" as another export type. mov != 3gp != mp4 != psp != ipod != 3g2, so i added some black magic to change format name. Clumsy, but right now i don't know how to handle this. Adding five (!) additional export types is just ugly, choosing special "export mode" option for mp4 is even uglier (and it won't match the filename unless Audacity changes the name by itself which will confuse the user, since user expected filename to be the one he/she provided). Maybe new "default export extension" feature is on it's way? :) > > >>> * Real Audio is still a problem. Real Player, JetAudio and MPC don't >>> understand Audacity's RA files. On my system, only VLC (which >>> does not support Real) will play them. As Richard said, RA (like >>> it or not) is one of the key formats. >>> >>> >> Files produced by FFmpeg can't be played either. >> > > Oh dear... well I don't think this is worth having then, especially as the > options now make it clear it is just an AC3 file, which will confuse some > people. Commented-out. > Could this be got working with your "Other FFmpeg-compatible > files", so at least people could export AC3 in an .rm container which > RealPlayer, MPC and the like could play? > Not sure. I have to find some working (compatible) realaudio encoder and compare the results with FFmpeg. Or maybe a working realmedia muxer to mux raw ac3 into rm - that would be just grand! Because i think the issue is with rm muxer, not the encoder. > Presumably using a proprietary Real encoder, JetAudio has a lot of > options for Streaming/Non-Streaming etc. when writing an .rm file. > > >>> * Both Richard and I would prefer sample rates were taken out of >>> of format options for sake of consistency. Do you see any drawbacks >>> to this? >>> >>> >> Well, now for AAC encoding bitrate range depends on sample rate. Either >> i have to make the dialog aware of the AudacityProject contents, or >> leave as it is. >> >> For other formats removing sample rate is easier. >> >> What should be Audacity's policy when track's sample rate doesn't >> matches any of the sample rates supported by format? Error message? >> Upsampling? Downsampling? Up/Downsampling (to closest rate)? Forced >> resampling (for formats such as GSM which supports only one sample rate). >> > > Richard/Leland would be more expert than me here, but as I (think I) > said before, what we do with MP3 is offer a dialogue when the sample > rate is unsupported for the chosen bit rate. If the rate is unsupported, > it offers the nearest rate below, from what I now see. Would that work > for the AAC problem? > cutoff=0 happened to be non-automatic, as it always results in bandwidth=100Hz I'll change cutoff to samplerate/2, this is the highest value libfaac would ever accept. It would have been cool to change cutoff depending on bitrate user sets, but i don't know the formula to calculate maximal cutoff for given sample and bit rate. > The other alternative is to always choose export rate in the format options, > including native Audacity formats. This is another way to be consistent > (and avoid a second dialogue or error message). I suppose it would still > have to be decided if the offered sample rate in the export options was > totally independent of the project rate or offered a close match. I think > it should be independent. > Until it is decided, things will stay as they are. > PS In the AAC options, if you select a sample rate, the bit rate dropdown > always loses its value and has to be reset. It does not seem to be because > they are interlinked. Should they be, given bit range depends on sample > rate? > Fixed. |
From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2008-07-15 19:15:10
|
| From LRN <lr...@gm...> | Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:41:37 +0400 | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Export Options > Gale Andrews wrote: > >>> * MP4 (AAC) bit rates don't seem right for higher bit rates yet. At > >>> 44100 Hz sample rate I got a 48 kbps stereo MP4 to show as > >>> 99 kbps in iTunes and Foobar (so near enough?), but stereo > >>> 96, 193 and 258 kbps files all show in Foobar and iTunes as > >>> 152 kbps > >>> > >>> > >> From faac commandline encoder help: > >> -b<bitrate> Set average bitrate (ABR) to approximately<bitrate> > >> kbps. > >> (max. value 152 kbps/stereo with a 16 kHz cutoff, can be raised > >> with a higher -c setting). > >> -c<freq> Set the bandwidth in Hz (default: automatic, i.e. adapts > >> maximum value to input sample rate). > >> > >> Should i add cutoff frequency to dialog? Or just leave things as they are? > >> > > > > Well I guess it would be nice (defaults to 16 kHz), but given the > > 152 kbps maximum, do the 177 and higher kbps options serve any > > purpose? Or if it's easy-to-encode material, does this mean you have > > to choose a higher bit rate than with something harder to encode, so > > as to actually end up with something like 152 kbps? > > > Curiously, setting cutoff to 16000 raises max bitrate significantly. Some tests: mono m4a exported from Audacity 96000 Hz 457 kbps = 235 in foobar 44100 Hz 145 kbps = 104 in foobar stereo m4a 44100 Hz 145 kbps = 278 in foobar 44100 Hz 258 kbps = 278 in foobar So we're seeing a higher maximum bitrate now and I guess the above display some kind of logic. Export a mono file and the reported bit rate in the player will be about half; with a stereo file reported bit rate will be double, but constrained by a maximum. Correct? > > PS In the AAC options, if you select a sample rate, the bit rate dropdown > > always loses its value and has to be reset. It does not seem to be because > > they are interlinked. Should they be, given bit range depends on sample > > rate? > > > Fixed. OK I see bit rate and sample rate are now linked. When you choose a low sample rate, you get the highest compatible bit rate offered, but when choosing a high sample rate, you seem to be offered one of the lower compatible bit rates. This is deliberate to restrict the file size, I take it? Guess it's OK, but just checking, as I was kind of expecting to be offered the highest bit rate. > >>> * Were we going to have an M4A filter so that Windows users > >>> of iTunes don't have to rename AAC to M4A before export, > >>> and Mac users of iTunes don't have to rename both AAC and > >>> MP4? > >>> > >>> > >> Elaborate a bit more, which filters for which platform i should make and > >> what should they do exactly? > >> > >> While i had iTunes installed, it played mp4 files without problems. > >> > >> > > So does iTunes here, as I'm on Windows too, but the issue is with the > > cases I stated above (AAC on Windows, and both AAC and MP4 on Mac). > > I don't recall if AAC or MP4 exports have been tested on Linux, or to > > what extent it's an important format on Linux (you can run the Windows > > iTunes under Wine on Linux, so maybe most who are interested do that)? > > > > I don't know if it's really worth the confusion of three AAC export > > choices. If you can do it, my tentative suggestion is either of the > > below (and live with having to rename AAC): > > > > * leave as is for Windows, but for Mac replace "MP4 (AAC)" with "M4A > > (AAC)". > > > > * Or (for both platforms) have an "M4A/MP4 (AAC)" choice, defaulting to > > M4A, but Options has the possibility to save as MP4. I guess you'd > > feel "M4A (AAC)" is an inaccurate description (?) but this suggestion > > should avoid basic users having to rename this option on any platform. > > > > PS: I think you were going to add an extension for MOV so as to allow > > AAC or M4A to be renamed to MOV without a warning. > > > I'll add "m4a" as another export type. > mov != 3gp != mp4 != psp != ipod != 3g2, so i added some black magic to > change format name. Clumsy, but right now i don't know how to handle > this. Adding five (!) additional export types is just ugly, choosing > special "export mode" option for mp4 is even uglier (and it won't match > the filename unless Audacity changes the name by itself which will > confuse the user, since user expected filename to be the one he/she > provided). I think it's a bit confusing even now :=). Would it better if the filter read "MP4 (or rename to MOV/IPOD.......)" ? Done some more tests (Windows) and a few things that worked now don't: * MP4 export (i.e. what you get if you don't rename) no longer plays in QuickTime (QT) or iTunes (OK in VLC). I think this should be fixed if possible. * AAC OK in QT, as before * MOV export no longer plays in QT (I assume iTunes for Windows does not support MOV). * M4A OK in QT and iTunes, but only if Low Complexity. If Main or LTP, iTunes will no longer play them. I assume this is deliberate, but wonder if it's the right decision (better to just let iTunes treat Main and LTP as an unknown profile)? PS I think it's too late now to do any fixes for 1.3.6a4. > >>> * Both Richard and I would prefer sample rates were taken out of > >>> of format options for sake of consistency. Do you see any drawbacks > >>> to this? > >>> > >>> > >> Well, now for AAC encoding bitrate range depends on sample rate. Either > >> i have to make the dialog aware of the AudacityProject contents, or > >> leave as it is. > >> > >> For other formats removing sample rate is easier. > >> > >> What should be Audacity's policy when track's sample rate doesn't > >> matches any of the sample rates supported by format? Error message? > >> Upsampling? Downsampling? Up/Downsampling (to closest rate)? Forced > >> resampling (for formats such as GSM which supports only one sample rate). > >> > > > > Richard/Leland would be more expert than me here, but as I (think I) > > said before, what we do with MP3 is offer a dialogue when the sample > > rate is unsupported for the chosen bit rate. If the rate is unsupported, > > it offers the nearest rate below, from what I now see. Would that work > > for the AAC problem? > > .... > > The other alternative is to always choose export rate in the format options, > > including native Audacity formats. This is another way to be consistent > > (and avoid a second dialogue or error message). I suppose it would still > > have to be decided if the offered sample rate in the export options was > > totally independent of the project rate or offered a close match. I think > > it should be independent. > > > Until it is decided, things will stay as they are. Quite. I think we need Richard's input - does he still want sample rate of export to be decided only in the project rate box? I do think we should try and be consistent in one way or another. One other way to be so might be to include sample rate in *all* FFmpeg filters. This would give people a way to change the exported sample rate of (say) a FLAC file, without the inconvenience of changing the project rate. Gale |
From: LRN <lr...@gm...> - 2008-07-16 05:11:02
|
Gale Andrews wrote: > | From LRN<lr...@gm...> > | Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:41:37 +0400 > | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Export Options > >> Gale Andrews wrote: >> >>>>> * MP4 (AAC) bit rates don't seem right for higher bit rates yet. At >>>>> 44100 Hz sample rate I got a 48 kbps stereo MP4 to show as >>>>> 99 kbps in iTunes and Foobar (so near enough?), but stereo >>>>> 96, 193 and 258 kbps files all show in Foobar and iTunes as >>>>> 152 kbps >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> From faac commandline encoder help: >>>> -b<bitrate> Set average bitrate (ABR) to approximately<bitrate> >>>> kbps. >>>> (max. value 152 kbps/stereo with a 16 kHz cutoff, can be raised >>>> with a higher -c setting). >>>> -c<freq> Set the bandwidth in Hz (default: automatic, i.e. adapts >>>> maximum value to input sample rate). >>>> >>>> Should i add cutoff frequency to dialog? Or just leave things as they are? >>>> >>>> >>> Well I guess it would be nice (defaults to 16 kHz), but given the >>> 152 kbps maximum, do the 177 and higher kbps options serve any >>> purpose? Or if it's easy-to-encode material, does this mean you have >>> to choose a higher bit rate than with something harder to encode, so >>> as to actually end up with something like 152 kbps? >>> >>> >> Curiously, setting cutoff to 16000 raises max bitrate significantly. >> > > Some tests: > > mono m4a exported from Audacity > 96000 Hz 457 kbps = 235 in foobar > 44100 Hz 145 kbps = 104 in foobar > > stereo m4a > 44100 Hz 145 kbps = 278 in foobar > 44100 Hz 258 kbps = 278 in foobar > > So we're seeing a higher maximum bitrate now and I guess the > above display some kind of logic. Export a mono file and the > reported bit rate in the player will be about half; with a stereo file > reported bit rate will be double, but constrained by a maximum. > Correct? > Uh...i don't know. When i was testing the thing, i encoded one stereo track at each available bitrate (i tested only 44100, but now testing various sample rates is due) with self-explaining names such as "stereo_44100Hz_128k_LC.mp4", then dropped all encoded files on foobar and checked the results. That gives you a pretty good picture of bitrate's behaviour. In theory the bitrate reported by foobar2000 for mono files should be the same you set in Audacity (not half!). For stereo - yes, it would be doubled (because in Audacity you set per-channel bitrate). > > >>> PS In the AAC options, if you select a sample rate, the bit rate dropdown >>> always loses its value and has to be reset. It does not seem to be because >>> they are interlinked. Should they be, given bit range depends on sample >>> rate? >>> >>> >> Fixed. >> > > OK I see bit rate and sample rate are now linked. When you choose a low > sample rate, you get the highest compatible bit rate offered, but when > choosing a high sample rate, you seem to be offered one of the lower > compatible bit rates. This is deliberate to restrict the file size, I take it? > Guess it's OK, but just checking, as I was kind of expecting to be offered > the highest bit rate. > It selects the closest bitrate, it doesn't care about it being higher or lower. >>>>> * Were we going to have an M4A filter so that Windows users >>>>> of iTunes don't have to rename AAC to M4A before export, >>>>> and Mac users of iTunes don't have to rename both AAC and >>>>> MP4? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Elaborate a bit more, which filters for which platform i should make and >>>> what should they do exactly? >>>> >>>> While i had iTunes installed, it played mp4 files without problems. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> So does iTunes here, as I'm on Windows too, but the issue is with the >>> cases I stated above (AAC on Windows, and both AAC and MP4 on Mac). >>> I don't recall if AAC or MP4 exports have been tested on Linux, or to >>> what extent it's an important format on Linux (you can run the Windows >>> iTunes under Wine on Linux, so maybe most who are interested do that)? >>> >>> I don't know if it's really worth the confusion of three AAC export >>> choices. If you can do it, my tentative suggestion is either of the >>> below (and live with having to rename AAC): >>> >>> * leave as is for Windows, but for Mac replace "MP4 (AAC)" with "M4A >>> (AAC)". >>> >>> * Or (for both platforms) have an "M4A/MP4 (AAC)" choice, defaulting to >>> M4A, but Options has the possibility to save as MP4. I guess you'd >>> feel "M4A (AAC)" is an inaccurate description (?) but this suggestion >>> should avoid basic users having to rename this option on any platform. >>> >>> PS: I think you were going to add an extension for MOV so as to allow >>> AAC or M4A to be renamed to MOV without a warning. >>> >>> >> I'll add "m4a" as another export type. >> mov != 3gp != mp4 != psp != ipod != 3g2, so i added some black magic to >> change format name. Clumsy, but right now i don't know how to handle >> this. Adding five (!) additional export types is just ugly, choosing >> special "export mode" option for mp4 is even uglier (and it won't match >> the filename unless Audacity changes the name by itself which will >> confuse the user, since user expected filename to be the one he/she >> provided). >> > > I think it's a bit confusing even now :=). Would it better if the filter > read "MP4 (or rename to MOV/IPOD.......)" ? > > MOV, IPOD, MP4, PSP, 3GP and 3G2 are different formats, not just the same file renamed to different extension. Since my "black magic" patch each format is explicitly exported as such (movmuxed has different modes set - MODE_MP4, MODE_MOV, etc). > Done some more tests (Windows) and a few things that worked now don't: > > * MP4 export (i.e. what you get if you don't rename) no longer plays in > QuickTime (QT) or iTunes (OK in VLC). I think this should be fixed > if possible. > * AAC OK in QT, as before > * MOV export no longer plays in QT (I assume iTunes for Windows > does not support MOV). > MP4 and MOV unplayable - ok, i'll try to fix it...again... :( > * M4A OK in QT and iTunes, but only if Low Complexity. If Main or > LTP, iTunes will no longer play them. I assume this is deliberate, > but wonder if it's the right decision (better to just let iTunes treat > Main and LTP as an unknown profile)? > iTunes won't play anything except Low Complexity. I think i mentioned it before... By the way, on some thread at HydrogenAudio i saw a guy saying that Main and LTP profiles are history. So it makes sense to assume that LC is the only profile supported. And it is selected in Audacity by default anyways. |
From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2008-07-16 18:40:42
|
| From LRN <lr...@gm...> | Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:11:16 +0400 | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Export Options > Gale Andrews wrote: > > Some tests: > > > > mono m4a exported from Audacity > > 96000 Hz 457 kbps = 235 in foobar > > 44100 Hz 145 kbps = 104 in foobar > > > > stereo m4a > > 44100 Hz 145 kbps = 278 in foobar > > 44100 Hz 258 kbps = 278 in foobar > > > > So we're seeing a higher maximum bitrate now and I guess the > > above display some kind of logic. Export a mono file and the > > reported bit rate in the player will be about half; with a stereo file > > reported bit rate will be double, but constrained by a maximum. > > Correct? > > > Uh...i don't know. When i was testing the thing, i encoded one stereo > track at each available bitrate (i tested only 44100, but now testing > various sample rates is due) with self-explaining names such as > "stereo_44100Hz_128k_LC.mp4", then dropped all encoded files on foobar > and checked the results. That gives you a pretty good picture of > bitrate's behaviour. > In theory the bitrate reported by foobar2000 for mono files should be > the same you set in Audacity (not half!). > > For stereo - yes, it would be doubled (because in Audacity you set > per-channel bitrate). I am not sure if the 457 kbps > 235 kbps result in Foobar may be explainable by a maximum bit rate constraint, but look at these results: mono m4a: 12000 Hz 70 kbps > Foobar 25 kbps 12000 Hz 26 kbps > Foobar 25 kbps 64000 Hz 70 kbps > Foobar 79 kbps 64000 Hz 164 kbps > Foobar 155 kbps 64000 Hz 210 kbps > Foobar 155 kbps 96000 Hz 70 kbps > Foobar 110 kbps 96000 Hz 210 kbps > Foobar 211 kbps 96000 Hz 457 kbps > Foobar 235 kbps (as above) It seems there might be a pattern, something like "bitrate in Foobar is too low if bit rate is in high range for that sample rate" (and vice versa). > > OK I see bit rate and sample rate are now linked. When you choose a low > > sample rate, you get the highest compatible bit rate offered, but when > > choosing a high sample rate, you seem to be offered one of the lower > > compatible bit rates. This is deliberate to restrict the file size, I take it? > > Guess it's OK, but just checking, as I was kind of expecting to be offered > > the highest bit rate. > > > It selects the closest bitrate, it doesn't care about it being higher or > lower. I see, closest to the bit rate that was there before user changed the sample rate. OK, as good a rule as any. > >> I'll add "m4a" as another export type. > >> mov != 3gp != mp4 != psp != ipod != 3g2, so i added some black magic to > >> change format name. Clumsy, but right now i don't know how to handle > >> this. Adding five (!) additional export types is just ugly, choosing > >> special "export mode" option for mp4 is even uglier (and it won't match > >> the filename unless Audacity changes the name by itself which will > >> confuse the user, since user expected filename to be the one he/she > >> provided). > >> > > > > I think it's a bit confusing even now :=). Would it better if the filter > > read "MP4 (or rename to MOV/IPOD.......)" ? > > > > > MOV, IPOD, MP4, PSP, 3GP and 3G2 are different formats, not just the > same file renamed to different extension. Since my "black magic" patch > each format is explicitly exported as such (movmuxed has different modes > set - MODE_MP4, MODE_MOV, etc). Sure I understand that, but from the users' POV they have to rename to switch from MP4 to say 3GP, and I wonder how obvious it is that rename is needed? If it's correct as I guess that most users won't add extensions to the file name (after all, doing so does not usually change the actual format), then they might be looking in Options for a radio button to change format and be confused by not finding it. I don't mind either way of changing formats, though I think that even if people did rename, it would be fairly obvious a radio button over-ruled that. Either way, as this is untypical of the other menu entries I think it does need explaining so that people change format correctly. If not done in the menu item itself, can a tooltip appear when this item is selected? PS What player should play 3GP on a computer? RealPlayer has the association but reports the file corrupted. > > Done some more tests (Windows) and a few things that worked now don't: > > > > * MP4 export (i.e. what you get if you don't rename) no longer plays in > > QuickTime (QT) or iTunes (OK in VLC). I think this should be fixed > > if possible. > > * AAC OK in QT, as before > > * MOV export no longer plays in QT (I assume iTunes for Windows > > does not support MOV). > > > MP4 and MOV unplayable - ok, i'll try to fix it...again... :( Thanks. Foobar can't play these MP4s either... > > > * M4A OK in QT and iTunes, but only if Low Complexity. If Main or > > LTP, iTunes will no longer play them. I assume this is deliberate, > > but wonder if it's the right decision (better to just let iTunes treat > > Main and LTP as an unknown profile)? > > > iTunes won't play anything except Low Complexity. I think i mentioned it > before... > By the way, on some thread at HydrogenAudio i saw a guy saying that Main > and LTP profiles are history. So it makes sense to assume that LC is the > only profile supported. And it is selected in Audacity by default anyways. You did mention before, but I also said on the 12th that before this change, iTunes played Audacity's Main and LTP AAC files fine, just reported no profile for them. I think it would be better if we "could" return to that behaviour, for people who select "Main" because that looks like "usual" or "default" or for whatever reason. Thanks Gale |
From: LRN <lr...@gm...> - 2008-07-19 15:30:26
|
I installed iTunes again and made a couple of tests. I am positive that iTunes v7.7.0.43 is unable to play MP4/MOV/etc AAC files, encoded by ffmpeg (using ffmpeg.exe -i file.wav -acodec libfaac -ar xxx -ab yyy -cutoff zzz -f fmt file.mp4 or similar commandline; ffmpeg of version git-c83671b at 11 June 2008), unless it's LC-AAC. As for bitrate, i encoded 2400 audio files in a few days, and here's the results for 480 of them (others are the same, just in different format, i.e. ipod, 3gp, mov, etc - it seems that iTunes accepts any mov-based format as long as it is LC-AAC, and foobar2000 accepts almost anything, except maybe mov): 001 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_0_-f_mp4 76 kbps 002 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_220_-f_mp4 8 kbps 003 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_551_-f_mp4 14 kbps 004 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_1102_-f_mp4 24 kbps 005 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_2450_-f_mp4 47 kbps 006 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_3150_-f_mp4 58 kbps 007 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_4410_-f_mp4 75 kbps 008 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_11025_-f_mp4 92 kbps 009 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_0_-f_mp4 76 kbps 010 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_220_-f_mp4 8 kbps 011 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_551_-f_mp4 14 kbps 012 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_1102_-f_mp4 25 kbps 013 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_2450_-f_mp4 47 kbps 014 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_3150_-f_mp4 58 kbps 015 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_4410_-f_mp4 76 kbps 016 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_11025_-f_mp4 92 kbps 017 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_main_-cutoff_0_-f_mp4 76 kbps 018 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_main_-cutoff_220_-f_mp4 8 kbps 019 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_main_-cutoff_551_-f_mp4 14 kbps 020 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_main_-cutoff_1102_-f_mp4 24 kbps 021 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_main_-cutoff_2450_-f_mp4 47 kbps 022 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_main_-cutoff_3150_-f_mp4 58 kbps 023 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_main_-cutoff_4410_-f_mp4 75 kbps 024 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_22050_aac_main_-cutoff_11025_-f_mp4 92 kbps 025 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_44100_aac_low_-cutoff_0_-f_mp4 92 kbps 026 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_44100_aac_low_-cutoff_441_-f_mp4 15 kbps 027 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_44100_aac_low_-cutoff_1102_-f_mp4 29 kbps 028 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_44100_aac_low_-cutoff_2205_-f_mp4 48 kbps 029 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_44100_aac_low_-cutoff_4900_-f_mp4 91 kbps 030 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_44100_aac_low_-cutoff_6300_-f_mp4 92 kbps 031 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_44100_aac_low_-cutoff_8820_-f_mp4 92 kbps 032 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_44100_aac_low_-cutoff_22050_-f_mp4 126 kbps 033 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_44100_aac_ltp_-cutoff_0_-f_mp4 92 kbps 034 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_44100_aac_ltp_-cutoff_441_-f_mp4 15 kbps 035 rock.short.wav_-ab_92000_-ar_44100_aac_ltp_-cutoff_1102_-f_mp4 29 kbps 036 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231 rock.short.wav_-ab_128000_-ar_96000_aac_ltp_-cutoff_19200_-f_mp4 143 kbps 232 rock.short.wav_-ab_128000_-ar_96000_aac_ltp_-cutoff_48000_-f_mp4 220 kbps 233 rock.short.wav_-ab_128000_-ar_96000_aac_main_-cutoff_0_-f_mp4 128 kbps 234 rock.short.wav_-ab_128000_-ar_96000_aac_main_-cutoff_960_-f_mp4 33 kbps 235 rock.short.wav_-ab_128000_-ar_96000_aac_main_-cutoff_2400_-f_mp4 62 kbps 236 rock.short.wav_-ab_128000_-ar_96000_aac_main_-cutoff_4800_-f_mp4 106 kbps 237 rock.short.wav_-ab_128000_-ar_96000_aac_main_-cutoff_10666_-f_mp4 128 kbps 238 rock.short.wav_-ab_128000_-ar_96000_aac_main_-cutoff_13714_-f_mp4 128 kbps 239 rock.short.wav_-ab_128000_-ar_96000_aac_main_-cutoff_19200_-f_mp4 143 kbps 240 rock.short.wav_-ab_128000_-ar_96000_aac_main_-cutoff_48000_-f_mp4 220 kbps 241 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_0_-f_mp4 76 kbps 242 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_220_-f_mp4 8 kbps 243 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_551_-f_mp4 14 kbps 244 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_1102_-f_mp4 24 kbps 245 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_2450_-f_mp4 47 kbps 246 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_3150_-f_mp4 58 kbps 247 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_4410_-f_mp4 75 kbps 248 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_low_-cutoff_11025_-f_mp4 147 kbps 249 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_0_-f_mp4 76 kbps 250 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_220_-f_mp4 8 kbps 251 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_551_-f_mp4 14 kbps 252 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_1102_-f_mp4 25 kbps 253 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_2450_-f_mp4 47 kbps 254 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_3150_-f_mp4 58 kbps 255 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_4410_-f_mp4 76 kbps 256 rock.short.wav_-ab_192000_-ar_22050_aac_ltp_-cutoff_11025_-f_mp4 148 kbps 257 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kbps 478 rock.short.wav_-ab_256000_-ar_96000_aac_main_-cutoff_13714_-f_mp4 221 kbps 479 rock.short.wav_-ab_256000_-ar_96000_aac_main_-cutoff_19200_-f_mp4 256 kbps 480 rock.short.wav_-ab_256000_-ar_96000_aac_main_-cutoff_48000_-f_mp4 256 kbps Remember, that this was done using ffmpeg, and it's -ab setting sets up the bitrate for the whole file (unlike Audacity, which sets up the bitrate per channel). Obviously, both -ab, -ar and -cutoff have influence on the outcome: wider bandwidth -> more opportunities to achieve higher bitrate (and using too wide bandwidth results in overshot, as codec has to use more bitrate that it was allowed by user). Bandwidth == Cutoff frequency. Which, in turn, can't be more than one half of Sample Rate. I tweaked the calculating process by dividing selected sample rate by two for the purpose of calculating maximum bitrate (that gives us max 129 kbit/s per channel for 44100 - more than enough, if you ask me), and resulting file will have almost precisely the desired bitrate - deviations will only occur for lowest bitrates (in case of 44100 Hz and my sample audio file it was around 48 kbit/s per channel). I tested it without a tweak - maximum per-channel bitrate in this case is 135 kbit/s, so 129 kbit/s seems a pretty good guess. For 22050Hz it is 151 kbit/s real maximum (which is ~76 kbit/s per channel) vs calculated (in tweaked version) 64 kbit/s per channel - again, pretty close guess. So, unless people start exporting audio in weird sample rates this tweaked verison calculates correct maximum bitrate per channel. SampleRate/2 cutoff frequency is still used, of course. By the way it's funny to try to encode audio with LOW cutoff - like 1000Hz. It results in extremely muffled sound - it cuts off all the high frequencies, leaving only low ones. As if i'm listening through a thick wall or messed with equalizer bass preset too much... Unplayability of mp4 files were caused by my "black magic" patch, i apologise. I removed it, since it was half-correct anyways (regardless of any mistakes i made in comparison functions) - valid extensions are: mp4, mov, 3gp and m4a. For ipod, psp, etc the mp4 extension is used. Because of that i'm reverting back to simple "mp4" and "rename if you need mov/3gp/etc". I think "default extension" facility is due, but that is the story for another day (and i don't see how it could be useful for non-aac files). |
From: Richard A. <ri...@au...> - 2008-07-19 16:23:20
|
On Sat, 2008-07-19 at 19:30 +0400, LRN wrote: > I installed iTunes again and made a couple of tests. I am positive that > iTunes v7.7.0.43 is unable to play MP4/MOV/etc AAC files, encoded by > ffmpeg (using ffmpeg.exe -i file.wav -acodec libfaac -ar xxx -ab yyy > -cutoff zzz -f fmt file.mp4 or similar commandline; ffmpeg of version > git-c83671b at 11 June 2008), unless it's LC-AAC. In which case, I think we should add something to the list of options in the drop-down list - so it reads Low Complexity (Default), Main, LTP or so. > Remember, that this was done using ffmpeg, and it's -ab setting sets up > the bitrate for the whole file (unlike Audacity, which sets up the > bitrate per channel). Obviously, both -ab, -ar and -cutoff have > influence on the outcome: wider bandwidth -> more opportunities to > achieve higher bitrate (and using too wide bandwidth results in > overshot, as codec has to use more bitrate that it was allowed by user). > Bandwidth == Cutoff frequency. Which, in turn, can't be more than one > half of Sample Rate. How weird. With most other codecs there are two possible modes - quantiser controlled and bitrate controlled. In a a quantiser controlled configuration, the amount of information thrown away is fixed. The bit rate is essentially unpredictable, determined by the content in the input data. This is basically the "easy" mode for codec writers, because they just set the parameters and let the algorithm get on with it. In a bitrate controlled system the amount of information thrown away is adjusted to keep the bit rate of the file at a constant level. This usually means a feedback loop that watches the bit rate of the output and fiddles with the encoding settings to keep the bit rate under control. Various tweaks are employed to allow short-term peaks in the bit rate due to complex data without the long-term bit rate going out of control. The high frequency roll-off control is unusual to have as a codec setting, although for almost any codec rolling off the high frequency content will make the input simpler and easier to encode, allowing a constant quantiser system to do lower bitrates, and a constant bit rate system to have fewer artifacts. The cost is the complete loss of the HF information cut off - but on many budget systems they are inaudible anyway. In theory it is always better to lower the sample rate of the recording to remove excess HF content, because this actually reduces the uncompressed data rate as well. However, in practise external restrictions may control what sample rate can be picked on, and so a HF cut during export isn't a bad idea. > I tweaked the calculating process by dividing selected sample rate by > two for the purpose of calculating maximum bitrate (that gives us max > 129 kbit/s per channel for 44100 - more than enough, if you ask me), and > resulting file will have almost precisely the desired bitrate - > deviations will only occur for lowest bitrates (in case of 44100 Hz and > my sample audio file it was around 48 kbit/s per channel). Is this the default bit rate suggested by audacity, or the maximum? Setting the default sounds like a good idea, but I wouldn't want to restrict the bit rates users can choose if they wish to (e.g. generating AAC content known to have a lot of critical HF content and to be played on a high-end system might need a higher bit rate so that the bandwidth setting can be increased, accepting that big files come out). > SampleRate/2 cutoff frequency is still used, of course. Is this a default, controllable or fixed? I wouldn't want to prohibit users from allowing a lot more signal through. Having quite good hearing, I'd hate to loose everything above 10 kHz from my audio - that's worse that my cassette deck can achieve (tops out somewhere about 16 kHz on Chrome tapes). > Unplayability of mp4 files were caused by my "black magic" patch, i > apologise. I removed it, since it was half-correct anyways (regardless > of any mistakes i made in comparison functions) - valid extensions are: > mp4, mov, 3gp and m4a. For ipod, psp, etc the mp4 extension is used. > Because of that i'm reverting back to simple "mp4" and "rename if you > need mov/3gp/etc". I think "default extension" facility is due, but that > is the story for another day (and i don't see how it could be useful for > non-aac files). I'm sure we've been here before, but what is the difference? For .mp4 files we are encoding AAC audio and putting it an MP4 container. Ipods, PSPs play these as-is. Does itunes? For .mov files we are encoding AAC audio and putting it in a MOV container. Nice and standard from some pov, but what is it actually useful for? Obviously quicktime plays it, but does quicktime not also play .mp4 files? For .3gp files, AAC audio in some other container again? What might we use them for - sending to mobile phones? For .m4a files, are these not the same as .mp4? Are there some brain-dead applications that actually won't cope with files because they are named one and not the other? Ultimately, I would like to achieve a situation where the file extension doesn't affect what gets exported. By all means have a single export option with multiple "allowed" extensions (which don't raise warnings). One of them will have to be the default for when users don't type anything, and this should be whatever is most likely to work on the host platform (and can change between platforms). The name of the export option should be the same on all platforms however. If there are two many possible settings for AAC to make this reasonable, then I think we need two export options: * "AAC for iTunes" with as few controls as possible - probably just bitrate with some behind-the-scenes magic going on * "Full AAC" - all controls available, with quite a lot of complexity available (say controls for bit rate, HF cut-off, container format). This is the same kind of scheme as for PCM export, where we have a simple way for most users to work, and an advanced option for unusual requirements. Richard |
From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2008-07-20 21:17:48
|
Again, sorry for length but replying to several long posts by Richard and LRN in one. | From Richard Ash <ri...@au...> | Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:23:27 +0100 | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Export Options > On Sat, 2008-07-19 at 19:30 +0400, LRN wrote: > > I installed iTunes again and made a couple of tests. I am positive that > > iTunes v7.7.0.43 is unable to play MP4/MOV/etc AAC files, encoded by > > ffmpeg (using ffmpeg.exe -i file.wav -acodec libfaac -ar xxx -ab yyy > > -cutoff zzz -f fmt file.mp4 or similar commandline; ffmpeg of version > > git-c83671b at 11 June 2008), unless it's LC-AAC. > In which case, I think we should add something to the list of options in > the drop-down list - so it reads Low Complexity (Default), Main, LTP or > so. Rather than LRN's idea of a warning message with "don't show again" checkbox, how about just "Low Complexity (most compatible)" , and say "Long Term Prediction" instead of "LTP" (might put casual users off choosing it). I see QT for Windows has problems with Main too - a 45 seconds file has no sound after 9 seconds, but imports correctly back into Audacity. There's a problem if renaming files exported with the MP4 filter to MOV - neither iTunes or QT will play them. Renaming M4A to MOV works fine. I have no way of testing 3GP. So if we keep the M4A filter, should it carry a note to use this one to rename? > > Unplayability of mp4 files were caused by my "black magic" patch, i > > apologise. I removed it, since it was half-correct anyways (regardless > > of any mistakes i made in comparison functions) - valid extensions are: > > mp4, mov, 3gp and m4a. For ipod, psp, etc the mp4 extension is used. > > Because of that i'm reverting back to simple "mp4" and "rename if you > > need mov/3gp/etc". I think "default extension" facility is due, but that > > is the story for another day (and i don't see how it could be useful for > > non-aac files). > I'm sure we've been here before, but what is the difference? > For .mp4 files we are encoding AAC audio and putting it an MP4 > container. Ipods, PSPs play these as-is. Does itunes?... > > For .m4a files, are these not the same as .mp4? Are there some > brain-dead applications that actually won't cope with files because they > are named one and not the other? Yes as LRN said, iTunes and QT on Mac need M4A: they won't play files exported with the MP4 filter (at least, that was true the last time someone checked). > Ultimately, I would like to achieve a situation where the file extension > doesn't affect what gets exported. By all means have a single export > option with multiple "allowed" extensions (which don't raise warnings). > One of them will have to be the default for when users don't type > anything, and this should be whatever is most likely to work on the host > platform (and can change between platforms). The name of the export > option should be the same on all platforms however. > > If there are two many possible settings for AAC to make this reasonable, > then I think we need two export options: > * "AAC for iTunes" with as few controls as possible - probably just > bitrate with some behind-the-scenes magic going on > * "Full AAC" - all controls available, with quite a lot of complexity > available (say controls for bit rate, HF cut-off, container format). > > This is the same kind of scheme as for PCM export, where we have a > simple way for most users to work, and an advanced option for unusual > requirements. I think this may be a good idea. We'll need to be sure iTunes can cope with FFmpeg files with AAC extension. At the moment if you rename an M4A or MP4 to AAC, iTunes for Windows can't play it. I "think" most iTunes users would actually recognise an "M4A (AAC) for iTunes" filter better than "AAC for iTunes", as M4A is now pretty much the standard parlance now for iTunes audio (and M4V for video) due to iTunes store and iPod usage. It might even be an idea to spell out "Low Complexity" in this "dumb AAC" option (whatever we call it). I think LRN may be right that we don't need other AAC filters. But again, let's be consistent. If we take sample rate choice out of the dumb AAC filter and have Audacity make silent rate adjustments as needed, let's take it out of all format options. That only means I think removing sample rate from AC3, WAV (FFmpeg) and MP3 (FFmpeg) (and arguably we then don't need those two FFmpeg duplicates of native Audacity formats at all). It is fair to say some users would prefer the alternative of always choosing export rate in the format options. I think though much of this may be because they are habitually importing files at 44100 Hz but exporting them at lower rates for a specific purpose. Having the default project rate set to that lower rate won't help them because the rate will switch to 44100 Hz when importing the file. So a simpler way of addressing this may be to have a preference to respect the project rate when importing files. Two other points: * I think a much better title than "Other FFmpeg-compatible files" may be "Custom mix of codec and Format (FFmpeg)". This makes clearer that exotic AAC choices for example are available there. * At present though I don't think it's obvious enough what to do to export 3GP (or even iPod). I'm not sure how common iPod is as an extension but I'm sure many people will be asking how to export to 3GP. ****** And that reminds me Richard, if you remember... on Windows changing the rate in Preferences changes the project rate at once, but not on Linux (I've forgotten what Mac does, can you remind me again Leland)? You like what happens on Linux, though I see an advantage to what happens on Windows, because it lets you create a new track at the new rate straight away. Either way, we can't leave it as it is, or the Manual would actually have to explain that this works differently per platform. So unless anyone disagrees I think we'll have to add a bug to Release Checklist to fix Windows to obey the Linux behaviour. Thanks Gale |
From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2008-07-21 16:21:46
|
Hi LRN I just noticed the "Select file(s) for batch processing..." dialogue (accessed by File > Apply Chain) lacks "All supported files" and "FFmpeg-compatible files" filters. Thanks Gale |
From: Richard A. <ri...@au...> - 2008-07-21 20:52:37
|
On Sat, 2008-07-19 at 21:05 +0400, LRN wrote: > By the way, what is the roadmap at the moment? The goals i see are: > 1) Finish the expert exporting dialog. > 2) Make sure that export produces bugless and compatible output. > 3) Revisit all the "TODO"s i left behind. > 4) If ondemand loading would be available for non-PCM files by that time > - incorporate ondemand support into FFmpeg importer. > That's all. But you probably have something in mind, like, full import > component redesign... I think input will have to wait (but I don't rule out doing it quite soon independently). What I would like to add as another point is to look at Metadata import and export. I can see that you have some code in place, because if I import a tagged Ogg file through ffmpeg, I get rows of little square boxes in the track title, album title, artist name and genre entries. The track number survives but the date seems not to (nothing of note in the log window in a debug build). I don't seem to have anything that actually reads metadata for most of the formats, so I'll pass on what works there (I've just tried an ogg file I know has tags, and failed to read them in VLC). I would rate 4) as very much nice-to-have, but I think there are bigger issues for both you and Micheal to deal with (I suspect the rogue audacity process may be due to a thread of his). So I think the things we will ultimately rate highest will be compatible exports and some basic metadata support that works for the main fields. These are the boring bits that users will notice the absence of. Beyond this the expert export dialogue will get attention, if not necessarily use, and things like stream positioning are definitely in the "nice to have" category. If they are easy, you may want to knock some of them off, but they are not deal-breakers for most users. Richard |
From: Richard A. <ri...@au...> - 2008-08-11 20:57:42
|
On Mon, 2008-08-04 at 00:44 +0400, LRN wrote: > Current FFmpeg metadata support (this list may not be 100% correct, but > as far as i know it is): > aiff - read/write > ape - read > asf - read/write > avi - read/write > matroska - read/write > mov - read/write > mp3 - read/write > nsv - read > nut - read/write > ogg - read/write > rm - read/write > rpl - read > wc3movie - read > For all other format metadata support is not implemented explicitly. I > did not checked, maybe it can inject id3v2 tags into arbitrary > files...probably not. ID3 injection is not a good idea - very few things are likely to read them, and some will play them (which sounds nasty!). That's annoying - it seems to mean that we don't have support for tags in AAC files (unless mov support means mov container, in which case we should?). Anyhow, I can't currently persuade it to work with .m4a files. With WMA (2), I can get the "Artist name" back on import, but not any of the other tags. Is there something asymmetric about the naming being used somewhere? Unfortunately I can't get VLC to show me the tags in the exported file at the moment. AC3 seems to be completely broken at the moment as well - none of the tags come back in from the files exported from audacity. Richard |