atari800-users — Atari800 users

Re: [Atari800-users] (SDL) HELP with SHIFT/CONTROL + independent SHIFT and KEY bits in SKSTAT

[Jerzy K. <jer...@po...>]

Hello.

W dniu 28.05.2024 o 21:44, Miro Kropáček pisze:
> 
>     I fixed the behavior of the HELP key for SDL, because it wasn't able to
>     use it with SHIFT or CONTROL so far. This made impossible switching
>     standard and arabic character sets using SHIFT+HELP in Atari 65XE NAJM.
> 
> Nice, that was clearly an oversight. I wonder whether it wouldn't be 
> cleaner to set shiftctrl immediately after setting INPUT_key_shift & 
> key_control, that way you wouldn't need to separate the HELP handling 
> (also I'm not sure about the 5200 code - looks like it suffers from the 
> same issue - does the 5200 have a CONTROL key?)

The HELP key can be pressed in parallel with:
- SHIFT
- CONTROL
- START
- SELECT
- OPTION
- BREAK
- fire button
- joystick directions
- and even RESET
so I can move the code returning HELP directly before the code testing 
Atari 5200 keyboard. But I'm not sure it makes a big difference, though.
I don't know Atari 5200 systems and I haven't got opinion about 
existence of CONTROL key there.

>     Additionaly I fixed SHIFT (bit 3) and KEY (bit 2) bit states in SKSTAT
>     once the SHIFT key is pressing or releasing during other key is still
>     depressed e.g. HELP or SPACE, and so on. Before my change depressing
>     SHIFT made the key inactive, now it's still active. This is
>     important in
>     games like Robbo, that using arrow keys to control the main player and
>     SHIFT to control the fire (rare, but nice feature).
> 
> Oh, so it's the same issue as with the function keys. I wonder then, 
> shouldn't your second commit also include SDLK_LCTRL and SDLK_RCTRL?

You're right - done.

> I think PLATFORM_Keyboard() could use some serious overhaul -- now every 
> backend is supposed to handle all those special cases by itself instead 
> of just reporting "key XY has been pressed/released". But that's 
> definitely something for after release.

Agree. This is strict Atari keyboard behaviour. Additionally it would be 
very nice to have real POKEY debouncing emulated here one day.
And maybe we'll have POKEYs with better debouncing algorithm in the future?

Regards
Jerzy Kut

Re: [Atari800-users] (SDL) HELP with SHIFT/CONTROL + independent SHIFT and KEY bits in SKSTAT

[Miro K. <mir...@gm...>]

Hi,

On Tue, 28 May 2024 at 18:12, Jerzy Kut via Atari800-users <
ata...@li...> wrote:

> I fixed the behavior of the HELP key for SDL, because it wasn't able to
> use it with SHIFT or CONTROL so far. This made impossible switching
> standard and arabic character sets using SHIFT+HELP in Atari 65XE NAJM.
>
Nice, that was clearly an oversight. I wonder whether it wouldn't be
cleaner to set shiftctrl immediately after setting INPUT_key_shift &
key_control, that way you wouldn't need to separate the HELP handling (also
I'm not sure about the 5200 code - looks like it suffers from the same
issue - does the 5200 have a CONTROL key?)

Additionaly I fixed SHIFT (bit 3) and KEY (bit 2) bit states in SKSTAT
> once the SHIFT key is pressing or releasing during other key is still
> depressed e.g. HELP or SPACE, and so on. Before my change depressing
> SHIFT made the key inactive, now it's still active. This is important in
> games like Robbo, that using arrow keys to control the main player and
> SHIFT to control the fire (rare, but nice feature).
>
Oh, so it's the same issue as with the function keys. I wonder then,
shouldn't your second commit also include SDLK_LCTRL and SDLK_RCTRL?

I think PLATFORM_Keyboard() could use some serious overhaul -- now every
backend is supposed to handle all those special cases by itself instead of
just reporting "key XY has been pressed/released". But that's definitely
something for after release.

I made all changes in shift_help branch of my fork of Atari800
> https://github.com/mono6502/atari800/tree/shift_help and can create pull
> request if you'd like to integrate it with main code.
>
Looks good, after we resolve my points/questions above I will be happy to
merge them.

-- 
http://mikro.atari.org

Re: [Atari800-users] SDL: HELP with SHIFT/CONTROL + independent SHIFT key in SKSTAT

[Jerzy K. <jer...@po...>]

Bit 2 reflects the key state, and bit 3 one of SHIFT keys of course.
Regards
Jerzy Kut

W dniu 27.05.2024 o 23:20, Jerzy Kut pisze:
> Hello.
> I fixed the behavior of the HELP key for SDL, because it wasn't able to 
> use it with SHIFT or CONTROL so far. This made impossible switching 
> standard and arabic character sets using SHIFT+HELP in Atari 65XE NAJM.
> Additionaly I fixed SHIFT (bit 2) and KEY (bit 3) bits states in SKSTAT 
> once the SHIFT key is pressing or releasing during other key is still 
> depressed e.g. HELP or SPACE, and so on. Before my change depressing 
> SHIFT made the key inactive, now it's still active. This is important in 
> games like Robbo, that using arrow keys to control the main player and 
> SHIFT to control the fire (rare, but nice feature).
> I made changes in shift_help branch of my fork of Atari800 
> https://github.com/mono6502/atari800/tree/shift_help and can create pull 
> request if you'd like to integrate it with main code.
> Best regards
> Jerzy Kut

[Atari800-users] (SDL) HELP with SHIFT/CONTROL + independent SHIFT and KEY bits in SKSTAT

[Jerzy K. <jer...@po...>]

Hello.
I fixed the behavior of the HELP key for SDL, because it wasn't able to 
use it with SHIFT or CONTROL so far. This made impossible switching 
standard and arabic character sets using SHIFT+HELP in Atari 65XE NAJM.

Additionaly I fixed SHIFT (bit 3) and KEY (bit 2) bit states in SKSTAT 
once the SHIFT key is pressing or releasing during other key is still 
depressed e.g. HELP or SPACE, and so on. Before my change depressing 
SHIFT made the key inactive, now it's still active. This is important in 
games like Robbo, that using arrow keys to control the main player and 
SHIFT to control the fire (rare, but nice feature).

I made all changes in shift_help branch of my fork of Atari800 
https://github.com/mono6502/atari800/tree/shift_help and can create pull 
request if you'd like to integrate it with main code.
Best regards
Jerzy Kut

Re: [Atari800-users] Keyboard stuff (was: Re: Atari800-users Digest, Vol 127, Issue 2)

[Miro K. <mir...@gm...>]

On Fri, 17 May 2024 at 10:41, Chris Chiesa <chr...@gm...> wrote:

> Another issue is that somewhere between five and twelve years ago I wrote
> a massive, probably several hundred line, summary of a whole slew of issues
> I had noticed with Atari800 v2.2.1, and either never finished-and-sent it,
> or *did *send it and got told to break it up into multiple separate
> messages -- and *that *has *definitely not *ever happened.  It's still
> buried in an old to-do list and possibly somewhere in my Drafts folder here.
>
Feel free to repost it.


> If it doesn't happen in v4.0.0, it definitely will in v5.0.0.  But v5.0.0
> had other annoyances so I didn't spend much time in it.
>
As the sluggish keyboard has been fixed, feel free to share any other bugs
/ annoyances you have found in 5.0.0.

I have been experiencing that at odd moments even in v2.2.1, for 25+ years
> now.  It eventually goes away (maybe even with a simple hard reset, but I
> don't recall).  But you're supposed to be able to lock CAPS, and lock CTRL
> (so you can type graphics characters with a single keystroke),
> independently (and it doesn't seem to make any sense to ask what it would
> mean to lock *both *CAPS and CTRL "at the same time").
>
Seems to work ok for me in the latest builds.

In short, there are probably a dozen or more "little things" that aren't
> quite 100% right in Atari800, but it's in my nature to simply accept things
> as they are, without complaining, so I may well simply never have thought
> to mention them to anybody.
>
Feel free to report them, that's the only way they can get fixed.

if there's a standard "how to build it" document somewhere, somebody can
> certainly email me either the document itself, or a link to it, outside of
> this mailinglist.
>
Assuming you are looking to make a Windows build:
https://github.com/atari800/atari800/blob/master/DOC/BUILD.windows. I used
this document and https://github.com/HolyBlackCat/quasi-msys2 on my Linux
to create Windows executables. It was quite painless.

-- 
http://mikro.atari.org

[Atari800-users] Keyboard stuff (was: Re: Atari800-users Digest, Vol 127, Issue 2)

[Chris C. <chr...@gm...>]

Wow.  I had no idea my offhand mention of sluggish keyboard response in
v4.0.0 (and beyond, I suppose) had generated so much activity.  I'm not
nearly the second-by-second follower of, and near-instantaneous responder
to, email that I was in my youth, and am only just now seeing this
conversation, several days late.

On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 9:02 AM <
ata...@li...> wrote:

>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 9 May 2024 23:23:36 -0700
> From: Bill Kendrick <nb...@so...>
> To: ata...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Atari800-users] Atari800-users Digest, Vol 126, Issue 5
> Message-ID: <Zj29aISfItzXBqeE@gambit>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Thu, May 09, 2024 at 08:19:05AM +0200, Miro Krop??ek wrote:
> > On Thu, 9 May 2024 at 05:43, Chris Chiesa <chr...@gm...>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I still use Atari800 v2.2.1, which is ancient. I tried v4.0.0 a year or
> > > two ago and found that it was detectably sluggish in responding to the
> > > (Windows PC) keyboard, to the point of unusability.  So I will probably
> > > stay with v2.2.1 forever, until-or-unless somebody can identify, and
> back
> > > out, whatever changed in keyboard handling between then and now.
> > >
> > Did you report that bug? As this was before Github time, it's possible it
> > was forgotten even if you did.
>

I don't recall whether I reported it.  This here mailinglist is my
*only *contact
with the Atari800 development effort, so if I reported it anywhere, it was
*here*.  If this isn't the appropriate place to report it, then no, I
neverr did.

Another issue is that somewhere between five and twelve years ago I wrote a
massive, probably several hundred line, summary of a whole slew of issues I
had noticed with Atari800 v2.2.1, and either never finished-and-sent
it, or *did
*send it and got told to break it up into multiple separate messages
-- and *that
*has *definitely not *ever happened.  It's still buried in an old to-do
list and possibly somewhere in my Drafts folder here.


> > Can you precisely describe your setup (is it really visible even on
> > computers with several GHz of CPU power?), steps to reproduce/observe


Not really; I'm not at that computer right now, and if I wait until I am on
that one *and *thinking of this topic, it could be another five years
before I can get back to you.  I *was, *however, asked about its specs in
another context just a few days ago, and i remember it vaguely.  Intel I7
something something core something, and 2.90 GHz (stated twice, which I
assume means there are two or more cores).   Windows 10, but I don't
remember what edition (I prefer Professional but in retrospect was
insufficiently specific in several areas when telling my wife what kind of
"Windows 10 PC" I wanted in late 2020.

(in
> > other words, how can I notice it) ?
>

Run Atari800 v4.0.0 and type at 130 words-per-minute.  It'll miss a lot of
your keystrokes.  v2.2.1 doesn't.

If it doesn't happen in v4.0.0, it definitely will in v5.0.0.  But v5.0.0
had other annoyances so I didn't spend much time in it.

Getting a little "meta" for a second -- I see stuff suggesting people have
been having trouble with various aspects of Caps Lock behavior.  I have
been experiencing that at odd moments even in v2.2.1, for 25+ years now.
It eventually goes away (maybe even with a simple hard reset, but I don't
recall).  But you're supposed to be able to lock CAPS, and lock CTRL (so
you can type graphics characters with a single keystroke), independently
(and it doesn't seem to make any sense to ask what it would mean to lock *both
*CAPS and CTRL "at the same time").

In short, there are probably a dozen or more "little things" that aren't
quite 100% right in Atari800, but it's in my nature to simply accept things
as they are, without complaining, so I may well simply never have thought
to mention them to anybody.

I've attached my current config file (~/.atari800.cfg),
> in case any of the options I have set are useful.
>
> How can I help debug?  I haven't installed Atari800 from
> source in ages, but I'm happy to pull from the Git repo
> and build it if that could help.
>

Ah.  Right.  *THAT.*

Some longtime readers might recall seeing me ask here, sometime in 2019 or
2020, or maybe even longer ago, what it would take to build Atari800 from
scratch on Windows -- probably Windows 10 specifically, as that was the Big
New Thing at that time -- and people responding with details, and my saying
I'd be trying to get around to it when I *actually got *a Windows 10
machine.  Well, I got the Windows 10 machine in January 2021, and what with
one thing and another (if you haven't figured it out yet, I'm hugely ADHD)
I haven't gotten around to even *thinking *about *that *yet.  So, short
answer, no, I'm not currently set up to build Atari800 from source: I don't
have the tools, the libraries, the know-how, any knowledge of Github if
that's where the source code is, or any knowledge of wherever it actually
is if *not *GIthub.  To name just the factors I can think of off the top of
my head.  I seem to recall there was some sort of dififculty or other
issue, in obtaining the appropriate version, and/or form, of the SDL
library,  But maybe this current episode is the kick-in-the-pants I need to
get around to becoming able to build Atari800 from source.  Heck, that
might even allow me to find-and-fix things *myself, *as you'll note I did
back in the 90s.  I will try to find the details here in my emailbox, but
if there's a standard "how to build it" document somewhere, somebody can
certainly email me either the document itself, or a link to it, outside of
this mailinglist.

Chris

Re: [Atari800-users] Atari800-users Digest, Vol 126, Issue 5

[Steve B. <st...@at...>]

Another interesting quirk, the caps lock key now makes the Atari keyclick noise when you press it, the pre-fix version did not make the noise even though the lock light would come on and the blue caps indicator appeared. 


> On May 11, 2024, at 7:54 PM, Steve Boswell <st...@at...> wrote:
> 
> This has made the lag completely go away and has fixed the caps lock issue!
> 
> Apple are catching the keypresses and trying to action them as well, I get this when I put caps on.
> 
> <Screenshot 2024-05-11 at 7.49.32 PM.png>
> 
> And I get this is I hold down key repeat (this is holding down O
> 
> 
> , <Screenshot 2024-05-11 at 7.52.04 PM.png>
> 
> The caps thing happened before the fix, the repeat thing is new.
> 
> I don’t care about either, it's just interesting to note.
> 
> Thanks for the fix!
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 11, 2024, at 4:01 PM, Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm...> wrote:
>> 
>> Steve, Bill, Chris: if you can compile atari800 by yourself, please pull the latest commit and try it out. It should fix the input lag for good.
>> 
>> Chris was right, the breaking change appeared in 4.0.0, ironically it was caused by this commit: https://github.com/atari800/atari800/commit/dbf343b174bc2d28dec1f3d5cfbe4032a3bcbcfe which was supposed to fix ... keyboard input lag.
>> 
>> If I understand the intention / code of that commit properly, mouse/joystick movement generated more SDL events, we took only the first one, threw it away and waited for the next frame (which could again just process a non-keyboard event). But the fix was wrong, it just looped over all events and noticed only the last pressed key. That explains the missing keys, you basically pressed two keys within one frame and the first one was thrown away.
>> 
>> So that should be fixed now, thanks for reporting it.
>> 
>> Steve: about the CAPSLOCK issue I have no clue, it works on Linux and Atari Falcon at least. I have reopened https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/177 and ask the original reporter to confirm whether it is fixed on his side or not.
>> 
>> On Sat, 11 May 2024 at 16:02, Steve Boswell <st...@at... <mailto:st...@at...>> wrote:
>>> I’m on v5.2.0 installed via homebrew, I’ve got sdl12-compat installed, again via homebrew and everything is up to date, I did an update/upgrade this morning just to make sure.
>>> 
>>> The skipping seems to be somehow tied to the keyclick sound, I know this is anecdotal but it seems to be skipping if I’m typing too fast for the sound to play, with the sound turned down it doesn’t seem so bad even though the sound is still playing, I just can’t hear it. 
>>> 
>>> I was typing in a listing from Atari User magazine a few days ago (with the sound up) and it was pretty OK, I had to edit the listing with a hex editor to get the few lower case characters correct due to the caps thing, but there were almost no other errors in the listing when I ran the checksum routine. The few that there were, were all due to missed characters and the few lines I had to retype as I was typing were also missed characters. That could be me, I am a part of the feedback loop after all, and I wonder if the sound was making it feel like something wasn’t going right and that was spoiling my rhythm so I would stumble. 
>>> 
>>> There is _something_ going on though, I tried to do the same thing in Altirra and I didn’t have the same issues.
>>> 
>>> On the caps thing, I even plugged a PC keyboard in to make sure it wasn’t just the Mac keyboard and I still couldn’t get it to type lower case at all.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On May 11, 2024, at 3:25 AM, Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm... <mailto:mir...@gm...>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, 11 May 2024 at 01:41, Steve Boswell <st...@at... <mailto:st...@at...>> wrote:
>>>>> I also notice skipped keypresses. 
>>>> Ok, that should give me something to look into, perhaps worth delaying the release (which has already been delayed anyway ;-)).
>>>> 
>>>>> While we are discussing keyboards I have also noticed that on Mac the caps lock key doesn’t appear to do anything at all
>>>> Oh. There was an issue reported with CONTROL and CAPSLOCK keys: https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/177 and fixed afterwards: https://github.com/atari800/atari800/pull/205 and it was reported, tested and fixed on Mac. Do you have the latest Atari800 release?
>>>> 
>>>> There is one *slight* possibility that the problem is caused by the same issue I had on Atari Falcon -- where I still use the original SDL 1.2 library and not SDL12-compact wrapper. If you are using the latest release, can you check whether you have libsdl12 in your system or libsdl12-compat installed?
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> http://mikro.atari.org <http://mikro.atari.org/>
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Atari800-users mailing list
>>>> Ata...@li... <mailto:Ata...@li...>
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Atari800-users mailing list
>>> Ata...@li... <mailto:Ata...@li...>
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> http://mikro.atari.org <http://mikro.atari.org/>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Atari800-users mailing list
>> Ata...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Atari800-users mailing list
> Ata...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users

Re: [Atari800-users] Atari800-users Digest, Vol 126, Issue 5

[Steve B. <st...@at...>]

This has made the lag completely go away and has fixed the caps lock issue!

Apple are catching the keypresses and trying to action them as well, I get this when I put caps on.



And I get this is I hold down key repeat (this is holding down O


, 

The caps thing happened before the fix, the repeat thing is new.

I don’t care about either, it's just interesting to note.

Thanks for the fix!




> On May 11, 2024, at 4:01 PM, Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm...> wrote:
> 
> Steve, Bill, Chris: if you can compile atari800 by yourself, please pull the latest commit and try it out. It should fix the input lag for good.
> 
> Chris was right, the breaking change appeared in 4.0.0, ironically it was caused by this commit: https://github.com/atari800/atari800/commit/dbf343b174bc2d28dec1f3d5cfbe4032a3bcbcfe which was supposed to fix ... keyboard input lag.
> 
> If I understand the intention / code of that commit properly, mouse/joystick movement generated more SDL events, we took only the first one, threw it away and waited for the next frame (which could again just process a non-keyboard event). But the fix was wrong, it just looped over all events and noticed only the last pressed key. That explains the missing keys, you basically pressed two keys within one frame and the first one was thrown away.
> 
> So that should be fixed now, thanks for reporting it.
> 
> Steve: about the CAPSLOCK issue I have no clue, it works on Linux and Atari Falcon at least. I have reopened https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/177 and ask the original reporter to confirm whether it is fixed on his side or not.
> 
> On Sat, 11 May 2024 at 16:02, Steve Boswell <st...@at... <mailto:st...@at...>> wrote:
>> I’m on v5.2.0 installed via homebrew, I’ve got sdl12-compat installed, again via homebrew and everything is up to date, I did an update/upgrade this morning just to make sure.
>> 
>> The skipping seems to be somehow tied to the keyclick sound, I know this is anecdotal but it seems to be skipping if I’m typing too fast for the sound to play, with the sound turned down it doesn’t seem so bad even though the sound is still playing, I just can’t hear it. 
>> 
>> I was typing in a listing from Atari User magazine a few days ago (with the sound up) and it was pretty OK, I had to edit the listing with a hex editor to get the few lower case characters correct due to the caps thing, but there were almost no other errors in the listing when I ran the checksum routine. The few that there were, were all due to missed characters and the few lines I had to retype as I was typing were also missed characters. That could be me, I am a part of the feedback loop after all, and I wonder if the sound was making it feel like something wasn’t going right and that was spoiling my rhythm so I would stumble. 
>> 
>> There is _something_ going on though, I tried to do the same thing in Altirra and I didn’t have the same issues.
>> 
>> On the caps thing, I even plugged a PC keyboard in to make sure it wasn’t just the Mac keyboard and I still couldn’t get it to type lower case at all.
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 11, 2024, at 3:25 AM, Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm... <mailto:mir...@gm...>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Sat, 11 May 2024 at 01:41, Steve Boswell <st...@at... <mailto:st...@at...>> wrote:
>>>> I also notice skipped keypresses. 
>>> Ok, that should give me something to look into, perhaps worth delaying the release (which has already been delayed anyway ;-)).
>>> 
>>>> While we are discussing keyboards I have also noticed that on Mac the caps lock key doesn’t appear to do anything at all
>>> Oh. There was an issue reported with CONTROL and CAPSLOCK keys: https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/177 and fixed afterwards: https://github.com/atari800/atari800/pull/205 and it was reported, tested and fixed on Mac. Do you have the latest Atari800 release?
>>> 
>>> There is one *slight* possibility that the problem is caused by the same issue I had on Atari Falcon -- where I still use the original SDL 1.2 library and not SDL12-compact wrapper. If you are using the latest release, can you check whether you have libsdl12 in your system or libsdl12-compat installed?
>>> 
>>> --
>>> http://mikro.atari.org <http://mikro.atari.org/>
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Atari800-users mailing list
>>> Ata...@li... <mailto:Ata...@li...>
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Atari800-users mailing list
>> Ata...@li... <mailto:Ata...@li...>
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users
> 
> 
> --
> http://mikro.atari.org <http://mikro.atari.org/>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Atari800-users mailing list
> Ata...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users

Re: [Atari800-users] Atari800-users Digest, Vol 126, Issue 5

[Miro K. <mir...@gm...>]

Steve, Bill, Chris: if you can compile atari800 by yourself, please pull
the latest commit and try it out. It should fix the input lag for good.

Chris was right, the breaking change appeared in 4.0.0, ironically it was
caused by this commit:
https://github.com/atari800/atari800/commit/dbf343b174bc2d28dec1f3d5cfbe4032a3bcbcfe
which was supposed to fix ... keyboard input lag.

If I understand the intention / code of that commit properly,
mouse/joystick movement generated more SDL events, we took only the first
one, threw it away and waited for the next frame (which could again just
process a non-keyboard event). But the fix was wrong, it just looped over
all events and noticed only the last pressed key. That explains the missing
keys, you basically pressed two keys within one frame and the first one was
thrown away.

So that should be fixed now, thanks for reporting it.

Steve: about the CAPSLOCK issue I have no clue, it works on Linux and Atari
Falcon at least. I have reopened
https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/177 and ask the original
reporter to confirm whether it is fixed on his side or not.

On Sat, 11 May 2024 at 16:02, Steve Boswell <st...@at...> wrote:

> I’m on v5.2.0 installed via homebrew, I’ve got sdl12-compat installed,
> again via homebrew and everything is up to date, I did an update/upgrade
> this morning just to make sure.
>
> The skipping seems to be somehow tied to the keyclick sound, I know this
> is anecdotal but it seems to be skipping if I’m typing too fast for the
> sound to play, with the sound turned down it doesn’t seem so bad even
> though the sound is still playing, I just can’t hear it.
>
> I was typing in a listing from Atari User magazine a few days ago (with
> the sound up) and it was pretty OK, I had to edit the listing with a hex
> editor to get the few lower case characters correct due to the caps thing,
> but there were almost no other errors in the listing when I ran the
> checksum routine. The few that there were, were all due to missed
> characters and the few lines I had to retype as I was typing were also
> missed characters. That could be me, I am a part of the feedback loop after
> all, and I wonder if the sound was making it feel like something wasn’t
> going right and that was spoiling my rhythm so I would stumble.
>
> There is _something_ going on though, I tried to do the same thing in
> Altirra and I didn’t have the same issues.
>
> On the caps thing, I even plugged a PC keyboard in to make sure it wasn’t
> just the Mac keyboard and I still couldn’t get it to type lower case at all.
>
>
> On May 11, 2024, at 3:25 AM, Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm...>
> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 11 May 2024 at 01:41, Steve Boswell <st...@at...> wrote:
>
>> I also notice skipped keypresses.
>>
> Ok, that should give me something to look into, perhaps worth delaying the
> release (which has already been delayed anyway ;-)).
>
> While we are discussing keyboards I have also noticed that on Mac the caps
>> lock key doesn’t appear to do anything at all
>>
> Oh. There was an issue reported with CONTROL and CAPSLOCK keys:
> https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/177 and fixed afterwards:
> https://github.com/atari800/atari800/pull/205 and it was reported, tested
> and fixed on Mac. Do you have the latest Atari800 release?
>
> There is one *slight* possibility that the problem is caused by the same
> issue I had on Atari Falcon -- where I still use the original SDL 1.2
> library and not SDL12-compact wrapper. If you are using the latest release,
> can you check whether you have libsdl12 in your system or libsdl12-compat
> installed?
>
> --
> http://mikro.atari.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Atari800-users mailing list
> Ata...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Atari800-users mailing list
> Ata...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users
>


-- 
http://mikro.atari.org

Re: [Atari800-users] Atari800-users Digest, Vol 126, Issue 5

[Steve B. <st...@at...>]

I’m on v5.2.0 installed via homebrew, I’ve got sdl12-compat installed, again via homebrew and everything is up to date, I did an update/upgrade this morning just to make sure.

The skipping seems to be somehow tied to the keyclick sound, I know this is anecdotal but it seems to be skipping if I’m typing too fast for the sound to play, with the sound turned down it doesn’t seem so bad even though the sound is still playing, I just can’t hear it. 

I was typing in a listing from Atari User magazine a few days ago (with the sound up) and it was pretty OK, I had to edit the listing with a hex editor to get the few lower case characters correct due to the caps thing, but there were almost no other errors in the listing when I ran the checksum routine. The few that there were, were all due to missed characters and the few lines I had to retype as I was typing were also missed characters. That could be me, I am a part of the feedback loop after all, and I wonder if the sound was making it feel like something wasn’t going right and that was spoiling my rhythm so I would stumble. 

There is _something_ going on though, I tried to do the same thing in Altirra and I didn’t have the same issues.

On the caps thing, I even plugged a PC keyboard in to make sure it wasn’t just the Mac keyboard and I still couldn’t get it to type lower case at all.


> On May 11, 2024, at 3:25 AM, Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm...> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 11 May 2024 at 01:41, Steve Boswell <st...@at... <mailto:st...@at...>> wrote:
>> I also notice skipped keypresses. 
> Ok, that should give me something to look into, perhaps worth delaying the release (which has already been delayed anyway ;-)).
> 
>> While we are discussing keyboards I have also noticed that on Mac the caps lock key doesn’t appear to do anything at all
> Oh. There was an issue reported with CONTROL and CAPSLOCK keys: https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/177 and fixed afterwards: https://github.com/atari800/atari800/pull/205 and it was reported, tested and fixed on Mac. Do you have the latest Atari800 release?
> 
> There is one *slight* possibility that the problem is caused by the same issue I had on Atari Falcon -- where I still use the original SDL 1.2 library and not SDL12-compact wrapper. If you are using the latest release, can you check whether you have libsdl12 in your system or libsdl12-compat installed?
> 
> --
> http://mikro.atari.org <http://mikro.atari.org/>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Atari800-users mailing list
> Ata...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users

Re: [Atari800-users] Atari800-users Digest, Vol 126, Issue 5

[Steve B. <st...@at...>]

I just tried out the ctrl key fix and I don’t have any problems with the ctrl key switching to special characters or the backtick ` key switching to inverse, caps lock does nothing though.



> On May 11, 2024, at 3:25 AM, Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm...> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 11 May 2024 at 01:41, Steve Boswell <st...@at... <mailto:st...@at...>> wrote:
>> I also notice skipped keypresses. 
> Ok, that should give me something to look into, perhaps worth delaying the release (which has already been delayed anyway ;-)).
> 
>> While we are discussing keyboards I have also noticed that on Mac the caps lock key doesn’t appear to do anything at all
> Oh. There was an issue reported with CONTROL and CAPSLOCK keys: https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/177 and fixed afterwards: https://github.com/atari800/atari800/pull/205 and it was reported, tested and fixed on Mac. Do you have the latest Atari800 release?
> 
> There is one *slight* possibility that the problem is caused by the same issue I had on Atari Falcon -- where I still use the original SDL 1.2 library and not SDL12-compact wrapper. If you are using the latest release, can you check whether you have libsdl12 in your system or libsdl12-compat installed?
> 
> --
> http://mikro.atari.org <http://mikro.atari.org/>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Atari800-users mailing list
> Ata...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users

Re: [Atari800-users] Atari800-users Digest, Vol 126, Issue 5

[Miro K. <mir...@gm...>]

On Sat, 11 May 2024 at 01:41, Steve Boswell <st...@at...> wrote:

> I also notice skipped keypresses.
>
Ok, that should give me something to look into, perhaps worth delaying the
release (which has already been delayed anyway ;-)).

While we are discussing keyboards I have also noticed that on Mac the caps
> lock key doesn’t appear to do anything at all
>
Oh. There was an issue reported with CONTROL and CAPSLOCK keys:
https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/177 and fixed afterwards:
https://github.com/atari800/atari800/pull/205 and it was reported, tested
and fixed on Mac. Do you have the latest Atari800 release?

There is one *slight* possibility that the problem is caused by the same
issue I had on Atari Falcon -- where I still use the original SDL 1.2
library and not SDL12-compact wrapper. If you are using the latest release,
can you check whether you have libsdl12 in your system or libsdl12-compat
installed?

-- 
http://mikro.atari.org

Re: [Atari800-users] Atari800-users Digest, Vol 126, Issue 5

[Steve B. <st...@at...>]

I also notice skipped keypresses. 



While we are discussing keyboards I have also noticed that on Mac the caps lock key doesn’t appear to do anything at all



On a Mac there is no RSPECIAL char so I can’t press that for lower but caps lock is supposed to change case too. 


> On May 10, 2024, at 1:23 AM, Bill Kendrick <nb...@so...> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, May 09, 2024 at 08:19:05AM +0200, Miro Kropáček wrote:
>> On Thu, 9 May 2024 at 05:43, Chris Chiesa <chr...@gm...> wrote:
>> 
>>> I still use Atari800 v2.2.1, which is ancient. I tried v4.0.0 a year or
>>> two ago and found that it was detectably sluggish in responding to the
>>> (Windows PC) keyboard, to the point of unusability.  So I will probably
>>> stay with v2.2.1 forever, until-or-unless somebody can identify, and back
>>> out, whatever changed in keyboard handling between then and now.
>>> 
>> Did you report that bug? As this was before Github time, it's possible it
>> was forgotten even if you did.
>> 
>> Can you precisely describe your setup (is it really visible even on
>> computers with several GHz of CPU power?), steps to reproduce/observe (in
>> other words, how can I notice it) ?
> 
> I admit I've also noticed Atari800 seems to lose
> keypresses when I type at my regular speed, e.g.
> just now in BASIC what I typed came out as:
> 
>  10 PRNT "HELO THERE"
> 
> I'm running Ubuntu 22.04.4 with Atari800 5.0.0 (installed
> from Ubuntu repositories) on a Lenovo Thinkpad T480s laptop
> which `cat /proc/cpuinfo` shows ""
> 
> I've attached my current config file (~/.atari800.cfg),
> in case any of the options I have set are useful.
> 
> How can I help debug?  I haven't installed Atari800 from
> source in ages, but I'm happy to pull from the Git repo
> and build it if that could help.
> 
> -bill!
> 
> <billk.atari800.cfg-20240509.txt>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Atari800-users mailing list
> Ata...@li... <mailto:Ata...@li...>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users

Re: [Atari800-users] Atari800-users Digest, Vol 126, Issue 5

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

On Thu, May 09, 2024 at 08:19:05AM +0200, Miro Kropáček wrote:
> On Thu, 9 May 2024 at 05:43, Chris Chiesa <chr...@gm...> wrote:
> 
> > I still use Atari800 v2.2.1, which is ancient. I tried v4.0.0 a year or
> > two ago and found that it was detectably sluggish in responding to the
> > (Windows PC) keyboard, to the point of unusability.  So I will probably
> > stay with v2.2.1 forever, until-or-unless somebody can identify, and back
> > out, whatever changed in keyboard handling between then and now.
> >
> Did you report that bug? As this was before Github time, it's possible it
> was forgotten even if you did.
> 
> Can you precisely describe your setup (is it really visible even on
> computers with several GHz of CPU power?), steps to reproduce/observe (in
> other words, how can I notice it) ?

I admit I've also noticed Atari800 seems to lose
keypresses when I type at my regular speed, e.g.
just now in BASIC what I typed came out as:

  10 PRNT "HELO THERE"

I'm running Ubuntu 22.04.4 with Atari800 5.0.0 (installed
from Ubuntu repositories) on a Lenovo Thinkpad T480s laptop
which `cat /proc/cpuinfo` shows ""

I've attached my current config file (~/.atari800.cfg),
in case any of the options I have set are useful.

How can I help debug?  I haven't installed Atari800 from
source in ages, but I'm happy to pull from the Git repo
and build it if that could help.

-bill!

Re: [Atari800-users] Atari800-users Digest, Vol 126, Issue 5

[Miro K. <mir...@gm...>]

On Thu, 9 May 2024 at 05:43, Chris Chiesa <chr...@gm...> wrote:

> I still use Atari800 v2.2.1, which is ancient. I tried v4.0.0 a year or
> two ago and found that it was detectably sluggish in responding to the
> (Windows PC) keyboard, to the point of unusability.  So I will probably
> stay with v2.2.1 forever, until-or-unless somebody can identify, and back
> out, whatever changed in keyboard handling between then and now.
>
Did you report that bug? As this was before Github time, it's possible it
was forgotten even if you did.

Can you precisely describe your setup (is it really visible even on
computers with several GHz of CPU power?), steps to reproduce/observe (in
other words, how can I notice it) ?

-- 
http://mikro.atari.org

Re: [Atari800-users] Atari800-users Digest, Vol 126, Issue 5

[Chris C. <chr...@gm...>]

I still use Atari800 v2.2.1, which is ancient. I tried v4.0.0 a year or two
ago and found that it was detectably sluggish in responding to the (Windows
PC) keyboard, to the point of unusability.  So I will probably stay with
v2.2.1 forever, until-or-unless somebody can identify, and back out,
whatever changed in keyboard handling between then and now.


On Mon, Apr 22, 2024 at 4:01 PM <
ata...@li...> wrote:

> Send Atari800-users mailing list submissions to
>         ata...@li...
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         ata...@li...
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         ata...@li...
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Atari800-users digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Removal of win32 (directx backend, not to be confused
>       with SDL one) (Miro Krop??ek)
>    2. Re: Removal of win32 (directx backend, not to be confused
>       with SDL one) (Daniel Serpell)
>    3. Serial I/O (Was: Re: Removal of win32 (directx backend, not
>       to be confused with SDL one)) (Miro Krop??ek)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2024 18:30:49 +0200
> From: Miro Krop??ek <mir...@gm...>
> To: ata...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Atari800-users] Removal of win32 (directx backend, not
>         to be confused with SDL one)
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAN...@ma...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 at 14:25, bebing--- via Atari800-users <
> ata...@li...> wrote:
>
> > The loading beeps don't really sound like beeps any more and the
> "farting"
> > SIO sounds sound very tinny, trebly, or thin.
> >
> Indeed! I have just discovered the same thing:
> https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/229#issuecomment-2068163115.
> I'll try to investigate where our beloved beep-beep-beep loading sound
> went.
>
> I'm not a fan of Altirra. I tried it once via wine and did not like it.
>
> I guess it boils down to what one is accustomed to. I rarely use emulators
> as I own real hardware and love using it so I had missed the whole Altirra
> wave and how it took over Atari800's "market". However to be fair, Altirra
> not only emulates correctly every obscure thing you throw at it but
> additionally, Avery Lee (its author) has written an amazing Hardware guide
> about all possible quirks you can imagine *and* occasionally
> contributes with his knowledge to concrete Atari800 issues. So I'm really
> grateful for Altirra and his author, no hard feelings whatsoever.
>
> --
> http://mikro.atari.org
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2024 13:27:21 -0400
> From: Daniel Serpell <dse...@gm...>
> To: ata...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Atari800-users] Removal of win32 (directx backend, not
>         to be confused with SDL one)
> Message-ID: <Zia...@ap...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi!
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2024 at 09:39:51AM +0200, zy...@po... wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
>
> [snip]
>
> >
> > When I am thinking of the current "market" with the emulators, I see the
> > following (this is, of course, subjective).
> >
> >
> > Retro-Developers
> >
> > I would say, this piece of market is dominated by Altirra, because of
> the
> > emulation accuracy, very capable debugging tools, and native GUI.
> >
> > I don't believe atari800 can compete here, not now, not in the future.
>
> I disagree :)
>
> I consider myself a retro-developer, and I use atari800 over Altirra the
> majority of the time - it is faster to startup, easier to use from
> command line and easier to automate for testing. I only launch Altirra
> to do final testing before releases and to solve problems difficult to
> debug with the limited atari800 debugger.
>
>
> Have Fun!
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2024 22:00:51 +0200
> From: Miro Krop??ek <mir...@gm...>
> To: ata...@li...
> Subject: [Atari800-users] Serial I/O (Was: Re: Removal of win32
>         (directx backend, not to be confused with SDL one))
> Message-ID:
>         <CAN5rfbQt0AoD-bnc2U=
> Wu6...@ma...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 at 18:30, Miro Krop??ek <mir...@gm...>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 at 14:25, bebing--- via Atari800-users <
> > ata...@li...> wrote:
> >
> >> The loading beeps don't really sound like beeps any more and the
> >> "farting" SIO sounds sound very tinny, trebly, or thin.
> >>
> > Indeed! I have just discovered the same thing:
> > https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/229#issuecomment-2068163115.
> > I'll try to investigate where our beloved beep-beep-beep loading sound
> > went.
> >
> As mentioned in the issue #229, I have taken a look. Most likely my memory
> has been fooling me, I went through 1.3.6 - 5.2.0 and all I can say is that
> the sound I/O was gradually getting better, not worse.
>
> Of course, it is far away from what real hardware (and Altirra) sounds
> like. But if you have some specific builds to point out where you feel the
> sound was better, please do so.
>
> Anyway, this investigation also uncovered that the serial i/o sound is
> indeed included in the synchronized sound "framework", i.e. the switch
> doesn't have any meaning anymore for those platforms using synchronized
> sound.
>
> I'm very much inclined to kick the volume only + serial i/o stuff out but
> the DC and WinCE ports still use volumy only and not synchronized sound...
> so that extended the question whether we want to:
> - keep everything as is
> - kick out volume only+serial i/o and leave dc/wince ports as is
> - kick out also dc/wince along the way
>
> Opinions?
>
> --
> http://mikro.atari.org
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Atari800-users mailing list
> Ata...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Atari800-users Digest, Vol 126, Issue 5
> **********************************************
>

Re: [Atari800-users] Serial I/O (Was: Re: Removal of win32 (directx backend, not to be confused with SDL one))

[Miro K. <mir...@gm...>]

On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 at 19:55, Christian Groessler <ch...@gr...>
wrote:

> Please keep dc.
>
> What would be needed to adapt it to the synchronized sound framework?
>
Actually not much, basically everything had been done (and the sync sound
implementation is actually cleaner/simpler to use). I suspect that the
reason why DC doesn't support sync sound is that it was abandoned before
its introduction.

I have been thinking about it, I think the way to go is simply cut off the
volume only + serial i/o options and actually console sound, too (since
there's a menu option for it, you can always disable it). That way the
whole mess described in https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/229
will be gone and we can focus on correct Serial I/O emulation.

-- 
http://mikro.atari.org

Re: [Atari800-users] Serial I/O (Was: Re: Removal of win32 (directx backend, not to be confused with SDL one))

[Christian G. <ch...@gr...>]

On 4/22/24 22:00, Miro Kropáček wrote:
>
> Anyway, this investigation also uncovered that the serial i/o sound is 
> indeed included in the synchronized sound "framework", i.e. the switch 
> doesn't have any meaning anymore for those platforms using 
> synchronized sound.
>
> I'm very much inclined to kick the volume only + serial i/o stuff out 
> but the DC and WinCE ports still use volumy only and not synchronized 
> sound... so that extended the question whether we want to:
> - keep everything as is
> - kick out volume only+serial i/o and leave dc/wince ports as is
> - kick out also dc/wince along the way


Please keep dc.

What would be needed to adapt it to the synchronized sound framework?

regards,
chris

Re: [Atari800-users] Serial I/O (Was: Re: Removal of win32 (directx backend, not to be confused with SDL one))

[<be...@em...>]

Final Update on SIO beeps. Since I remember the SIO beeps/farts working at one point, I was trying to build a version for proof, but I think I would need to use virtual machines or something to fully test. But here is a summary:

1. I used to build various versions like x11, sdl, svgalib, so I was trying to build some of these. When running an x11 version nowadays you get a "/dev/dsp: No such file or directory" because I think the (now incorporated) linux kernel alsa driver changed how it deals with oss. There isn't even an aoss wrapper script anymore, but maybe this is when I heard the correct SIO beeps last.

2. atari800-1.3.6 and atari800-2.0.0 sdl targets will produce very high pitched SIO beeps with hi fidelity pokey turned off. With hi fidelity pokey turned on, you will just hear faint clicks.

So, sorry I'm not able to help by identifying when I heard it correctly last, but I am guessing it was maybe when I was building for x11 or svgalib and using oss. Just a desperate guess.

I guess not many people even listen to this as they enable the fast SIO patch, but I'm old-school and even do long cassette loads!

Thanks for the awesome emulator and all the work put into it over the years!




On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 20:01:29 -0400
bebing--- via Atari800-users <ata...@li...> wrote:

> Poking around I had a version of 1.3.6 and was able to build that. It has pokeysnd.* and mzpokeysnd.*, but I can't force slow SIO to test. I am able to play around with these settings in .atari800.cfg
>
> ENABLE_SIO_PATCH=
> ENABLE_NEW_POKEY=
> SERIO_SOUND=
>
> but still get a very fast load with a short hi-pitched sound when loading an ATR, so it's proving hard to test. I wish I kept better notes when I was tinkering with it at the time!
>
> Either way, thanks for the awesome product, and maybe with a few people's input we can get those sweet SIO sounds back!
>
>
>
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 23:55:35 +0000 (UTC)
> Ken Ames via Atari800-users <ata...@li...> wrote:
>
> >  I vote for fixing the sound so it "sounds" like the real hardware.
> >
> >     On Monday, April 22, 2024 at 01:02:18 PM MST, Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm...> wrote:
> >
> >  On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 at 18:30, Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm...> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 at 14:25, bebing--- via Atari800-users <ata...@li...> wrote:
> >
> > The loading beeps don't really sound like beeps any more and the "farting" SIO sounds sound very tinny, trebly, or thin.
> >
> > Indeed! I have just discovered the same thing: https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/229#issuecomment-2068163115. I'll try to investigate where our beloved beep-beep-beep loading sound went. 
> > As mentioned in the issue #229, I have taken a look. Most likely my memory has been fooling me, I went through 1.3.6 - 5.2.0 and all I can say is that the sound I/O was gradually getting better, not worse.
> > Of course, it is far away from what real hardware (and Altirra) sounds like. But if you have some specific builds to point out where you feel the sound was better, please do so.
> > Anyway, this investigation also uncovered that the serial i/o sound is indeed included in the synchronized sound "framework", i.e. the switch doesn't have any meaning anymore for those platforms using synchronized sound.
> > I'm very much inclined to kick the volume only + serial i/o stuff out but the DC and WinCE ports still use volumy only and not synchronized sound... so that extended the question whether we want to:- keep everything as is- kick out volume only+serial i/o and leave dc/wince ports as is- kick out also dc/wince along the way
> > Opinions?
> > --
> > http://mikro.atari.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Atari800-users mailing list
> > Ata...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Atari800-users mailing list
> Ata...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users

Re: [Atari800-users] Removal of win32 (directx backend, not to be confused with SDL one)

[Miro K. <mir...@gm...>]

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 at 02:32, Steve Boswell <st...@at...> wrote:

> I think it would be a good idea add ‘retroarch core’ as a target. There is
> a win32 build of retroarch so dropping that target won’t impact the few
> users still on XP, we’d get support for an increased range of targets, the
> sdl2, ui and controller mapping issues could all be updated while creating
> the new core.
>
> Retroarch is now the most popular way to play emulation, Atari 8bit is
> severely underrepresented with the existing core (most don’t even list it
> as Atari 8bit, they just call it 5200) it is in need of a lot of love (it’s
> a modified 3.1.0 version of atari800) making it a supported target would
> help to get more active users.

No arguments from me here but this requires someone who a) knows/uses/likes
Retroarch and b) can/want to code it and communicate with the Retroarch
folks.

-- 
http://mikro.atari.org

Re: [Atari800-users] Removal of win32 (directx backend, not to be confused with SDL one)

[Steve B. <st...@at...>]

I think it would be a good idea add ‘retroarch core’ as a target. There is a win32 build of retroarch so dropping that target won’t impact the few users still on XP, we’d get support for an increased range of targets, the sdl2, ui and controller mapping issues could all be updated while creating the new core. 

Retroarch is now the most popular way to play emulation, Atari 8bit is severely underrepresented with the existing core (most don’t even list it as Atari 8bit, they just call it 5200) it is in need of a lot of love (it’s a modified 3.1.0 version of atari800) making it a supported target would help to get more active users.


> On Apr 22, 2024, at 2:39 AM, <zy...@po...> <zy...@po...> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> the discussion related to removal of outdated or non-maintained backends somehow provoked
> me to think about the future direction of the atari800 emulator, namely choice of the future
> features and enhancements.
> 
> When I am thinking of the current "market" with the emulators, I see the following (this is, of course, subjective).
> 
> Retro-Developers
> I would say, this piece of market is dominated by Altirra, because of the emulation accuracy, very capable debugging tools, and native GUI.
> I don't believe atari800 can compete here, not now, not in the future.
> 
> Windows Retro Gamers
> I would also say that this market is taken. Both by Altirra and the most recent versions of XFormer. Of course, since SDL has decent support for Windows,
> there is no reason to give the Windows-SDL port up. However, we have no reasons to believe that there is a high demand for win32 binaries of atari800.
> Not sure what the download statistics would say.
> 
> Non-Windows Retro Gamers.
> This is where atari800 has minimum or no competition and can excel, and in my opinion this is where the functions of the emulator should expand mostly.
> What is lacking (and that topic was discussed before) is good support for non-keyboard controllers (gamepads, joysticks etc.) and good ability to map non-keyboard controllers to both joystick and non-joystick input. Also, the main menu of the emulator doesn't appear to be simple to use.
> 
> That is not easy. The way I see it, the following would be needed.
> - Cut off targets that are no longer viable.
> - Keep the pace with the developments in SDL. Consider supporting targets such as sdl12, sdl12-compat, and SDL2.
> - Rethink how controls work in the emulator. Perhaps introduce a layer of virtual emulator controls, where one or more physical controls could be mapped to the virtual controls. This would allow mappings such as map JS button 4 and F1 both to the ENTER_MENU emulator virtual control, etc.
> - Rethink the structure of the main menu to be more friendly for gamers.
> 
> I know, a lot of words....
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Atari800-users mailing list
> Ata...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users

Re: [Atari800-users] Serial I/O (Was: Re: Removal of win32 (directx backend, not to be confused with SDL one))

[<be...@em...>]

Poking around I had a version of 1.3.6 and was able to build that. It has pokeysnd.* and mzpokeysnd.*, but I can't force slow SIO to test. I am able to play around with these settings in .atari800.cfg

ENABLE_SIO_PATCH=
ENABLE_NEW_POKEY=
SERIO_SOUND=

but still get a very fast load with a short hi-pitched sound when loading an ATR, so it's proving hard to test. I wish I kept better notes when I was tinkering with it at the time!

Either way, thanks for the awesome product, and maybe with a few people's input we can get those sweet SIO sounds back!



On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 23:55:35 +0000 (UTC)
Ken Ames via Atari800-users <ata...@li...> wrote:

>  I vote for fixing the sound so it "sounds" like the real hardware.
>
>     On Monday, April 22, 2024 at 01:02:18 PM MST, Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm...> wrote:
>
>  On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 at 18:30, Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 at 14:25, bebing--- via Atari800-users <ata...@li...> wrote:
>
> The loading beeps don't really sound like beeps any more and the "farting" SIO sounds sound very tinny, trebly, or thin.
>
> Indeed! I have just discovered the same thing: https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/229#issuecomment-2068163115. I'll try to investigate where our beloved beep-beep-beep loading sound went. 
> As mentioned in the issue #229, I have taken a look. Most likely my memory has been fooling me, I went through 1.3.6 - 5.2.0 and all I can say is that the sound I/O was gradually getting better, not worse.
> Of course, it is far away from what real hardware (and Altirra) sounds like. But if you have some specific builds to point out where you feel the sound was better, please do so.
> Anyway, this investigation also uncovered that the serial i/o sound is indeed included in the synchronized sound "framework", i.e. the switch doesn't have any meaning anymore for those platforms using synchronized sound.
> I'm very much inclined to kick the volume only + serial i/o stuff out but the DC and WinCE ports still use volumy only and not synchronized sound... so that extended the question whether we want to:- keep everything as is- kick out volume only+serial i/o and leave dc/wince ports as is- kick out also dc/wince along the way
> Opinions?
> --
> http://mikro.atari.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Atari800-users mailing list
> Ata...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users
>

Re: [Atari800-users] Serial I/O (Was: Re: Removal of win32 (directx backend, not to be confused with SDL one))

[Ken A. <ken...@ya...>]

 I vote for fixing the sound so it "sounds" like the real hardware.

    On Monday, April 22, 2024 at 01:02:18 PM MST, Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm...> wrote:  
 
 On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 at 18:30, Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm...> wrote:

On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 at 14:25, bebing--- via Atari800-users <ata...@li...> wrote:

The loading beeps don't really sound like beeps any more and the "farting" SIO sounds sound very tinny, trebly, or thin.

Indeed! I have just discovered the same thing: https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/229#issuecomment-2068163115. I'll try to investigate where our beloved beep-beep-beep loading sound went. 
As mentioned in the issue #229, I have taken a look. Most likely my memory has been fooling me, I went through 1.3.6 - 5.2.0 and all I can say is that the sound I/O was gradually getting better, not worse.
Of course, it is far away from what real hardware (and Altirra) sounds like. But if you have some specific builds to point out where you feel the sound was better, please do so.
Anyway, this investigation also uncovered that the serial i/o sound is indeed included in the synchronized sound "framework", i.e. the switch doesn't have any meaning anymore for those platforms using synchronized sound.
I'm very much inclined to kick the volume only + serial i/o stuff out but the DC and WinCE ports still use volumy only and not synchronized sound... so that extended the question whether we want to:- keep everything as is- kick out volume only+serial i/o and leave dc/wince ports as is- kick out also dc/wince along the way
Opinions?
-- 
http://mikro.atari.org

_______________________________________________
Atari800-users mailing list
Ata...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users
  

Re: [Atari800-users] Serial I/O (Was: Re: Removal of win32 (directx backend, not to be confused with SDL one))

[<be...@em...>]

Sorry for top-posting. I did find evidence of me tinkering around with sound.c in version 3.0.0, messing around with FRAGSIZE, but did not find the issue. The version I had just before that was 2.2.1, so maybe it happened around there. I will report any results I find.


On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 18:54:13 -0400
bebing--- via Atari800-users <ata...@li...> wrote:

> Thank you! I think I had pinpointed the version earlier, but did not record it in my notes. All I can find is a reference to it changing in my notes that are dated December 5, 2013. If I can still build earlier versions I will pinpoint. I agree the sound got better and better. I even remember build options for sound when doing ./configure --help. Something with "hi" in the option name if I remember correctly. Most things would work with the normal option, but some things would work with the newer option. It seems at one point they got fused and now it plays everything.
>
>
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 22:00:51 +0200
> Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm...> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 at 18:30, Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm...> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 at 14:25, bebing--- via Atari800-users <
> > > ata...@li...> wrote:
> > >
> > >> The loading beeps don't really sound like beeps any more and the
> > >> "farting" SIO sounds sound very tinny, trebly, or thin.
> > >>
> > > Indeed! I have just discovered the same thing:
> > > https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/229#issuecomment-2068163115.
> > > I'll try to investigate where our beloved beep-beep-beep loading sound
> > > went.
> > >
> > As mentioned in the issue #229, I have taken a look. Most likely my memory
> > has been fooling me, I went through 1.3.6 - 5.2.0 and all I can say is that
> > the sound I/O was gradually getting better, not worse.
> >
> > Of course, it is far away from what real hardware (and Altirra) sounds
> > like. But if you have some specific builds to point out where you feel the
> > sound was better, please do so.
> >
> > Anyway, this investigation also uncovered that the serial i/o sound is
> > indeed included in the synchronized sound "framework", i.e. the switch
> > doesn't have any meaning anymore for those platforms using synchronized
> > sound.
> >
> > I'm very much inclined to kick the volume only + serial i/o stuff out but
> > the DC and WinCE ports still use volumy only and not synchronized sound...
> > so that extended the question whether we want to:
> > - keep everything as is
> > - kick out volume only+serial i/o and leave dc/wince ports as is
> > - kick out also dc/wince along the way
> >
> > Opinions?
> >
> > --
> > http://mikro.atari.org
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Atari800-users mailing list
> Ata...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/atari800-users

Re: [Atari800-users] Serial I/O (Was: Re: Removal of win32 (directx backend, not to be confused with SDL one))

[<be...@em...>]

Thank you! I think I had pinpointed the version earlier, but did not record it in my notes. All I can find is a reference to it changing in my notes that are dated December 5, 2013. If I can still build earlier versions I will pinpoint. I agree the sound got better and better. I even remember build options for sound when doing ./configure --help. Something with "hi" in the option name if I remember correctly. Most things would work with the normal option, but some things would work with the newer option. It seems at one point they got fused and now it plays everything.


On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 22:00:51 +0200
Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm...> wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 at 18:30, Miro Kropáček <mir...@gm...> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 at 14:25, bebing--- via Atari800-users <
> > ata...@li...> wrote:
> >
> >> The loading beeps don't really sound like beeps any more and the
> >> "farting" SIO sounds sound very tinny, trebly, or thin.
> >>
> > Indeed! I have just discovered the same thing:
> > https://github.com/atari800/atari800/issues/229#issuecomment-2068163115.
> > I'll try to investigate where our beloved beep-beep-beep loading sound
> > went.
> >
> As mentioned in the issue #229, I have taken a look. Most likely my memory
> has been fooling me, I went through 1.3.6 - 5.2.0 and all I can say is that
> the sound I/O was gradually getting better, not worse.
>
> Of course, it is far away from what real hardware (and Altirra) sounds
> like. But if you have some specific builds to point out where you feel the
> sound was better, please do so.
>
> Anyway, this investigation also uncovered that the serial i/o sound is
> indeed included in the synchronized sound "framework", i.e. the switch
> doesn't have any meaning anymore for those platforms using synchronized
> sound.
>
> I'm very much inclined to kick the volume only + serial i/o stuff out but
> the DC and WinCE ports still use volumy only and not synchronized sound...
> so that extended the question whether we want to:
> - keep everything as is
> - kick out volume only+serial i/o and leave dc/wince ports as is
> - kick out also dc/wince along the way
>
> Opinions?
>
> --
> http://mikro.atari.org