Re: [tuxracer-main] Re: Tux Racer 1.0 and the GPL oops
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Re: [tuxracer-main] Re: Tux Racer 1.0 and the GPL oops
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From: Sam M. <sam...@ma...> - 2001-10-26 18:40:43
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I dont think Steve is being indignent at all. He feels slighted is all, and disagrees with sunspire on a very basic level, about realeasing something GPL and essentially taking it back, then releasing it again at some unknown time. It probably would have been alot better to release commercial then GPL. Just my opinion. For staunch opensource supporters it does feel like a slight, sorry thats just how I feel. I love tux racer, my son loves it, there is no doubt its a great game. I hope you have success with it, Although based on my feeling I wont be buying it, which is how Ill let sunspire know my disagreement with how you handled this. Hey your free to do what you like, us lowly type just let you know if we agree with it or not via our wallets. I truly admire opensource developers, unfortunately it seems this time someone wants their cake and eat it too, and that just doesnt sit right with me. Im done.. Sam On 2001.10.26 14:04 Jasmin Patry wrote: > > Steve, Your indignation is coming through loud and clear. Your help on > the mailing lists helped a lot of people enjoy 0.61, and for that I > thank you. Your name is in the game credits for this reason. I'm sorry > if you feel it was done under false pretenses, so please accept my > apology. However, we have done *nothing* *wrong*. Tux Racer 0.61 would > never have existed if Sunspire Studios had not adopted it as a > commercial project. Approximately one man-year of effort was spent by > Sunspire Studios to create that version, and *yes* it was released as a > demo for a commercial project, or else Sunspire would never have spent > the effort. We weren't sure at the time how we would make money from > the project, hence the email to the mailing list that you mention. > Personally I would have preferred to keep the game open-source, and that > was our initial intention, but as time went on it became apparent that > that wouldn't be possible. We do intend to release the code under the > GPL after the game has had its commercial run. The fact that you're > accusing me of lying by doubting my claims of the effort spent on the > 1.0 version is extremely insulting. You haven't seen the 1.0 version, > so you don't know how it's changed -- it's changed a *lot*. The code > grew almost four-fold. We used Maya for all of the modelling (this > includes course objects -- I count 326 models -- and the four playable > characters) and character animation. So please refrain from implying > that we're liars until you know all the facts. Steve, you have a job, > you make lots of money (as you've pointed out several times), so you're > in a very comfortable position to criticize us. We have none of those > things. I've apologized. Please give us a break. Cheers, > Jasmin > Steve Baker writes: >> Jasmin Patry wrote: >>> In closing, I'd like to make the observation that we would not be >>> having >>> this discussion if Tux Racer had never been released under the GPL. >>> Would >>> that really have been better? >> >> Yes - it would. Because I (and many others) would not have spend >> hundreds >> of hours answering questions, helping you with your OpenGL problems, >> helping >> people with installation difficulties (*HOW* many times have I answered >> people >> who could only get it to run at 1Hz, or couldn't get it to compile? >> Many more >> that I can remember.) If this had been a commercial game from day #1, >> your >> customer support group would have handled all of those - and I would >> have >> had more fun doing other things. The only reason I provided so much >> help >> was because I had the reasonable expectation that one day there would be >> a free (and Free) finished game as a result. Do you seriously think >> *ANYONE* would have helped you in the way that so >> many did if they'd known at the outset that you'd take the project away >> and lock up the sources? >>> If companies are to be subject to accusations >>> of illegality because of their membership in the open-source >>> community, how >>> are we to expect more companies to embrace the open-source philosophy? >> >> I expect companies to *either* embrace it - *or* not embrace it. I do >> not >> expect them to make the pretense of embracing it during the difficult >> parts >> of the development process - only to turn their backs on the OpenSource >> community as soon as it looks like some money can be made. I do both >> OpenSource work and closed source commercial stuff. I keep my >> Open projects permenantly open (PLIB, TuxKart, TuxAQFH, PrettyPoly, >> freeglut) >> and my closed projects (StarGazerGL, HardBall...others I can't even talk >> about)...I *use* the PLIB and freeglut libraries in my closed source >> work (PLIB is LGPL'ed and freeglut is an Xfree license so that's OK) and >> when I do PLIB work "in company time" - those changes always go back >> into >> the public domain. I would never even *CONSIDER* taking an OpenSourced >> project into closed source. What is generally meant by "embracing open >> source" is what ID do with Quake >> (where a commercially developed game is released into OpenSource after a >> couple of years)...what you are doing is the complete opposite. >>> Sunspire Studios is not a big corporation looking to take advantage of >>> the >>> open-source community; we're simply a group of four guys (who were all >>> students when the project started) who created something cool, >>> released a >>> demo under the GPL,... >> >> Oh come *on* that's not how it happened at all. TuxRacer was never >> originally >> intended as a "demo" for some future close source game - you always >> described >> it as a complete game that was being written under OpenSource - right >> up to the >> time when you openly wondered (on this list) how you might make money >> from it >> from adverts, selling game levels, etc. You are editing history to suit >> your needs. >>> ...and are now looking to recoup our investment of time >>> (over a year each) and money (a copy of Maya doesn't come cheap), and >>> hopefully to make a bit more on top of that to have made it worth our >>> while. >> >> It would be nice if the rest of use who invested time into helping you >> get there got something out of it too - but that's not how the >> OpenSource >> world works. If everyone gives, then we all get more back than we >> invested. >> Your years of effort were mere repayment for the effort that Linus, >> Brian Paul >> and others put in to get you there in the first place. I'm also pretty >> skeptical about the claim that all four of you put in over a >> year of effort each. I could perhaps believe that you (Jasmin) did - >> but as >> for the rest? We see a couple of textures (very nice ones - but no >> more than >> a couple of days work each) - some simple sounds and one tune. Version >> 0.6 >> has under 35,000 lines of code - 8,700 per person means that if you >> worked >> 200 days per year, you only wrote about 5 lines of code an hour! I >> hope you >> don't expect to get paid *much* for working at that snail's pace! Your >> copy of Maya was clearly an utter waste - all of the modelling in >> TuxRacer >> up to 0.61 is done with the automatic terrain skinner - apart from Tux >> himself >> who was clearly modelled before you bought Maya - and a couple of trees >> and >> things that I could have put together in an hour using a $40 copy of >> AC3D! Expecting to get recompense for something you havn't used yet (at >> least not >> for anything that's out in the public domain) is hardly reasonable! I >> still maintain that your best course of action when you formed SunSpire >> would have been to start from scratch with a new game using your >> reputation >> and experience gained from TuxRacer. That's what I did when NeoMagic >> (and >> subsequently others) have asked me to do closed source stuff - and to >> date, >> my reputation and experience from TuxAQFH, TuxKart and PLIB - have >> indirectly >> earned me around a quarter million dollars in consultancy fees over >> just a >> couple of years...all whilst directly contributing to the Linux code >> base. You can capitalise on this stuff *WITHOUT* pissing people off >> much more >> easily than you can by upsetting them...which is certainly what you are >> doing >> right now. Your reputation for honesty and fairness just got flushed - >> in >> the world of Linux and the net, that's a bad thing. >> ----------------------------- Steve Baker >> ------------------------------- >> Mail : <sjb...@ai...> WorkMail: <sj...@li...> >> URLs : http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1 >> http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net >> http://prettypoly.sf.net http://freeglut.sf.net >> http://toobular.sf.net http://lodestone.sf.net >> _______________________________________________ >> tuxracer-main mailing list >> tux...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxracer-main > > > > -- > Jasmin Patry Lead Programmer, Tux Racer > jf...@su... http://www.tuxracer.com > _______________________________________________ > tuxracer-main mailing list > tux...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxracer-main > |