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Re: [Tiki-devel] Setting user expectations in Tiki
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From: Pascal St-J. <pas...@gm...> - 2013-08-25 01:30:52
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+1 Whats mixing to get mother up and running? On Aug 24, 2013 9:48 AM, "Jonny Bradley" <jo...@ti...> wrote: > > Shame that the Tiki Connect (a.k.a. Tiki Life / Life-Force) project ran > out of steam - it still works (?) and has been in all Tikis for ages (since > Tiki 8 apparently), look: there's even some documentation here! > http://doc.tiki.org/Connect (thanks Rick ;) and on > http://dev.tiki.org/Connect > > This adds (if you enable the feature, "connect" your site and then click > "feedback" in admin) 3 little buttons to each pref - "like", "report > broken" and "wtf?" (what's this for?) and can then send the data back to > mother.tiki.org so we could work out what's being used, what people like, > what's broken and what need documenting better... > > Nice, seems to have broken slightly - fixing... fixed in 11.x & trunk :) > > Anyway, might this be relevant here? I like the idea of actual user/admins > deciding what's good, bad or ugly rather than "us" doing the rating. > > jb > > > > On 24 Aug 2013, at 04:33, Pascal St-Jean <pas...@gm...> wrote: > > > 100% agree:-) > > > > On Aug 23, 2013 11:23 PM, "Steve Cichosz" <St...@te...> > wrote: > > I agree, debate isn't necessarily a bad thing. My line of thought is > more along the lines of consistency. By having an objective points system > supported by as much automation connected to reliable data sources as is > sensible, end users can develop an expectation for a score being reliable > in what it means. This way an 85 is an 85 is an 85. It's not a matter of > Steve's 85 rating meaning one thing and someone else's idea of what 85 > should mean on some other feature meaning something else. The score would > be meaningless without consistency backed by a standard. > > > > This is a good thread. Thanks for surfacing the idea Pascal. I think > this one has legs. :^) > > > > Steve > > > > > > On 08/23/2013 09:00 PM, Pascal St-Jean wrote: > >> Great suggestions Steve in regards to the points system > >> > >> I think that it would be key to establish how features are ranked. If > not then it becomes very subjective which leads to long debates. > >> > >> Not that debates are a bad thing. But I rather not suck the energy out > of everyone trying to debate how each feature should be ranked > >> > >> Having a points system then some automation and bug tracker queries and > user forum queries gets us info to help us rank. > >> > >> Great stuff everyone I think we are on to something > >> > >> On Aug 23, 2013 3:04 PM, "Bernard Sfez" <bs...@sh...> wrote: > >> > >> On 23 Aug 2013, at 15:22 , Pascal St-Jean <pas...@gm...> > wrote: > >> > >>> The problem is that if we look at each feature from a very high level. > Then everything is buggy. This is the nature of software. Also we can't > compare to WordPress please :) They do one thing, we do 1000 things. If all > we did were articles, then I think they would be rock solid but we are more > ambitious :) > >> > >> Doing 1000 doesn't mean a lot for end user if tiki don't do the one > thing he want in acceptable way. :) > >> And that's the point, as we are more ambitious and we put it that way > on the table, the end user expect more… Certainly not to failed on simple > task. > >> > >>> > >>> Now with that being said, I think there are cases where the entire > feature is unstable which is why I proposed > >>> • Bleeding Edge > >>> • Need your help > >>> We are letting the user know even before they click to turn on the > feature what to expect. > >>> > >>> On the other hand, we could keep the other tags for preferences. I say > this because I can argue with you that for specific use cases, Articles are > rock solid. For one customer we used > >>> • Title, Subtitle, Image, Heading & Body (non-WYSIWYG) > >>> • Categories (for permissions) > >>> • Submissions > >>> • Articles Plugin > >>> They publish over 10 articles a day and this site has been live since > Tiki 5 and the client couldn't be happier. On the other hand, I totally > agree that all it would take is a few parameters to be turned on and this > feature becomes unusable. > >>> > >>> Therefore the idea would be > >>> > >>> If a feature is Bleeding Edge or Needs Help then that is stated at the > top level (Feature) > >>> > >>> If a feature works, then the warning would be at the Pref / Parameter > level > >>> • This Pref is Rock Solid > >>> • This Pref is Buggy > >>> > >>> Would this make more sense to you Bernard ? > >> > >> Yes completely. > >> I think this is a very good initiative and it will help. > >> > >> FYI, about Articles case, i'm wasn't referring to a pref or an option > in fact. > >> Articles pictures or article topic icons don't follow the same pattern > we use for most of the other features (files gallery, db or external file, > etc). > >> This is a kind of exception and it is a dangerous one as admin may > think is images are stored a place they are not. :) > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 3:21 AM, Bernard Sfez <bs...@sh...> > wrote: > >>> +1 and even +2 on catching with user expectation. > >>> I appreciate your effort Pascal as it is very important to me. > >>> > >>> But there is a catch… priority. > >>> > >>> Some of the basic feature end-user expect are bugged or not achieved > and they are far to be on the top list. > >>> On the other hand some other features seams to the end-user complex > and he can understand they have to be improved. > >>> > >>> It is not that we don't want to fix them, it is just that dev are > working in other direction. > >>> > >>> To point it clearly: "Articles", "Word tools" (what we call > wysiwyg+toolbar+html), "Categories"… Short list that comes in mind but > there are others. > >>> Those features sound very simple stuff. > >>> End user don't understand (they are not well educated may be but it is > what it is) that Wonderful Tiki beast is failing on this while stupid any > CMS (namely Wordpress) is doing it right. > >>> > >>> If they were a pressure (justified) for wysiwyg and we are moving into > the right direction, there are chances that Articles keep the same for > several versions. > >>> > >>> My point is the following, it would be weird to have Rock solid > feature like : Vimeo, Spreadsheet or Dynamic Content System and Buggy > (unachieved) : Minichat, Articles, Live Support or Newsletter. > >>> Else we lie a little bit and decide that 25% +/- of end-user hitting > bug in those feature is acceptable :D > >>> > >>> > >>> I think that if we want to raise end-user confidence, Basic features > should be user expected easy stuff and follow trends. Then they should be > improved and optimised till they are tagged as "Solid Rock". > >>> > >>> > >>> Bernard > >>> > >>> PS : Don't get me wrong, i don't mean we should correct everything and > make it perfect for Basic features, but make sure what we give is working > 99%. > >>> Some extreme stuff (unlikely to be used) can be remove while other can > be easily fixed. > >>> > >>> > >>> On 23 Aug 2013, at 08:36 , Xavier de Pedro <xav...@vh...> > wrote: > >>> > >>> > Very good idea Pascal. +1 > >>> > I have the same impression that this approach you suggest will help > them.know what to expect, know Tiki better and how to use the stable > features that they managed to learn how to handle (e.g, trackers take a > while) for their own web needs. > >>> > Cheers > >>> > Xavi > >>> > > >>> > ----- Mensaje original ----- > >>> > De: Pascal St-Jean <pas...@gm...> > >>> > Para: Tikiwiki developers <tik...@li... > > > >>> > Enviado: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 03:09:29 +0200 (CEST) > >>> > Asunto: [Tiki-devel] Setting user expectations in Tiki > >>> > Hey everyone, > >>> > I've been talking with many clients and other users of Tiki here in > Ottawa > >>> > (yes we are starting to have a nice pool of users here. Tiki Ottawa > User > >>> > Group coming soon!!!) > >>> > Anyways, the most common feedback I get is that using Tiki puts them > on an > >>> > emotional roller-coster. The reason being is that they see all this > great > >>> > list of features. Some are amazing, some work until you turn a very > >>> > specific option on and others simply aren't battle tested. > >>> > In other words they are telling me that we are not doing a good job > at > >>> > setting user expectations. When it comes to perception, setting user > >>> > expectations is worth more then fixing every single bug in the world > >>> > because lets face it, there will always be bugs :) > >>> > With that being said, I think the concept of BASIC, INTERMEDIATE and > >>> > ADVANCED features have allowed us to start this process. But the > feedback > >>> > I'm getting is that we need to take it up one more step. > >>> > #1: Level of complexity of the feature > >>> > I think we are already doing a great job at this > >>> > #2: Level of confidence in the feature > >>> > I think we could implement a similar set of tags as BASIC, ADVANCED > etc... > >>> > but for our level of confidence of the feature > >>> > - Rock Solid = feature / pref is battle tested > >>> > - Buggy = feature / pref is usable but you may experience some small > >>> > issues depending on your configuration > >>> > - Bleeding Edge = feature / pref should not be deployed in any > serious > >>> > live website BUT if you are interested in what is up and coming in > Tiki > >>> > then please try it out > >>> > - Need your help = feature / pref needs work, this feature is not > really > >>> > being developed by the community anymore and we need your help to > make it > >>> > better > >>> > - > >>> > I don't think going through each pref is realistic in 12 BUT if we > would > >>> > add these types of Tags, we could then merge this workflow into the > >>> > WishList team. Every time a bug is reported, that feature or pref > could be > >>> > set as Buggy until that ticket is closed. > >>> > I'm looking for everyone's opinion on this but like I said, if we > let our > >>> > users know what to expect. We will go a long way in getting them to > trust > >>> > us and really love Tiki for what it has to offer even of it has bugs > or > >>> > features that simply don't work. > >>> > thank everyone in advance for your thoughts and opinions :) > >>> > -- > >>> > Pascal > >>> > http://www.pascalstjean.com > >>> > http://www.facebook.com/pascalstjean > >>> > htttp://www.linkedin.com/in/pstjean > >>> > http://www.twitter.com/pstjean > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > Introducing Performance Central, a new site from SourceForge and > >>> > AppDynamics. Performance Central is your source for news, insights, > >>> > analysis and resources for efficient Application Performance > Management. > >>> > Visit us today! > >>> > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48897511&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > TikiWiki-devel mailing list > >>> > Tik...@li... > >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel > >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> Introducing Performance Central, a new site from SourceForge and > >>> AppDynamics. Performance Central is your source for news, insights, > >>> analysis and resources for efficient Application Performance > Management. > >>> Visit us today! > >>> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48897511&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> TikiWiki-devel mailing list > >>> Tik...@li... > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Pascal > >>> > >>> http://www.pascalstjean.com > >>> http://www.facebook.com/pascalstjean > >>> htttp://www.linkedin.com/in/pstjean > >>> http://www.twitter.com/pstjean > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> Introducing Performance Central, a new site from SourceForge and > >>> AppDynamics. Performance Central is your source for news, insights, > >>> analysis and resources for efficient Application Performance > Management. > >>> Visit us today! > >>> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48897511&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk_______________________________________________ > >>> TikiWiki-devel mailing list > >>> Tik...@li... > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Introducing Performance Central, a new site from SourceForge and > >> AppDynamics. Performance Central is your source for news, insights, > >> analysis and resources for efficient Application Performance Management. > >> Visit us today! > >> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48897511&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > >> _______________________________________________ > >> TikiWiki-devel mailing list > >> Tik...@li... > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Introducing Performance Central, a new site from SourceForge and > >> AppDynamics. Performance Central is your source for news, insights, > >> analysis and resources for efficient Application Performance Management. > >> Visit us today! > >> > >> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48897511&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> TikiWiki-devel mailing list > >> > >> Tik...@li... > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Introducing Performance Central, a new site from SourceForge and > > AppDynamics. Performance Central is your source for news, insights, > > analysis and resources for efficient Application Performance Management. > > Visit us today! > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48897511&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > _______________________________________________ > > TikiWiki-devel mailing list > > Tik...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Introducing Performance Central, a new site from SourceForge and > > AppDynamics. Performance Central is your source for news, insights, > > analysis and resources for efficient Application Performance Management. > > Visit us today! > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48897511&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk_______________________________________________ > > TikiWiki-devel mailing list > > Tik...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Introducing Performance Central, a new site from SourceForge and > AppDynamics. Performance Central is your source for news, insights, > analysis and resources for efficient Application Performance Management. > Visit us today! > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48897511&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > TikiWiki-devel mailing list > Tik...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel > |