tactile-devel — Developer discussion

Re: [Tactile-devel] please add me as a developer

[Hans-Christoph S. <ha...@ed...>]

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003, Josh Bobruk wrote:

> Hans-Christoph Steiner <ha...@ed...> writes:
> > I posted to this list a while back.  I am interested in developing the
> > iFeel kernel module further.  Could I be put on as a Developer on the
> > SourceForge project?  my id is eighthave
> 
> No problem.  You're now a developer.
> 
> Have fun working on the driver - I expect big things! :)
> 
> Josh
> 

Hmm, would you settle for some bug fixes?  ;)

.hc


	zen
	   \
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[Tactile-devel] please add me as a developer

[Hans-Christoph S. <ha...@ed...>]

I posted to this list a while back.  I am interested in developing the  
iFeel kernel module further.  Could I be put on as a Developer on the  
SourceForge project?  my id is eighthave

.hc

________________________________________________________________________ 
____

"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are  
deliberately throwing it away
to benefit those who profit from scarcity."
							-John Gilmore

Re: [Tactile-devel] ifeel module crashs when data sent too fast

[Dan M. <da...@mo...>]

On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

> I am not trying to reproduce audio frequencies.  Mostly I just want to
> update it frequently, i.e. change the buzz frequency a little, or make it
> stop and start a lot

OK.

I actually just realized that I do know someone with an iFeel that I could
borrow, so maybe I will play around with the kernel module and see what I
find.

> > NeXTmail OK!
>
> Damn, still on NeXT?!?!  I still have a 4.2/intel install, but I haven't
> booted it in over a year.  I am using NeXTSTEP version 5 these days, um, I
> mean MacOS X.

Well, not really.  I collect and sell NeXT stuff, and just have a procmail
rule that forwards any NeXTmail that I get to the NeXT I use occasionally.

-- 
Dan@Moore.cx
moore.cx/dan
NeXTmail OK!

Re: [Tactile-devel] ifeel module crashs when data sent too fast

[Hans-Christoph S. <ha...@ed...>]

On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, Dan Moore wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
>
> > I wrote an object to use iFeel mice with Pure Data
> > (http://pure-data.sf.net) using the ifeel kernel module from
> > tactile.sf.net.  Basically I want to use this object to feed audio into
> > the mouse so that you can feel the music that you are creating with the
> > mouse.  But the problem is that when I send ioctl(ifeel,
> > USB_IFEEL_BUZZ_IOCTL, &command) too fast, the kernel module crashes,
> > and I have to restart to get it to work again.  Is this a bug or a
> > limitation?  Can it be fixed or should I work around it?
>
> Whoa.  Someone actually got around to writing a kernel module?  ;)
>
> I (obviously) haven't used it, but the iFeel mouse does have limitations
> on how fast it can buzz, so it might be difficult to get it to produce
> accurate 'sound' other than low frequencies.  Even thought it can vibrate
> pretty fast, it isn't a speaker, so switching between frequencies will be
> hard (slow).
>
> Some info (it's pretty old, but I don't think it has changed and I no
> longer have access to an iFeel anyway) at:
>
> 	http://inebriated-innovation.org/ifeel/
>
> I'll have to check out the kernel module and see if they found anything
> that I didn't...


I am not trying to reproduce audio frequencies.  Mostly I just want to
update it frequently, i.e. change the buzz frequency a little, or make it
stop and start a lot


>
> --
> Dan@Moore.cx
> moore.cx/dan
> NeXTmail OK!

Damn, still on NeXT?!?!  I still have a 4.2/intel install, but I haven't
booted it in over a year.  I am using NeXTSTEP version 5 these days, um, I
mean MacOS X.

.hc



	zen
	   \
	    \
	     \

Re: [Tactile-devel] ifeel module crashs when data sent too fast

[Josh B. <ph...@us...>]

Hans-Christoph Steiner <ha...@ed...> writes:
> 	
> I wrote an object to use iFeel mice with Pure Data
> (http://pure-data.sf.net) using the ifeel kernel module from
> tactile.sf.net.  Basically I want to use this object to feed audio into
> the mouse so that you can feel the music that you are creating with the
> mouse.  But the problem is that when I send ioctl(ifeel,
> USB_IFEEL_BUZZ_IOCTL, &command) too fast, the kernel module crashes, and
> I have to restart to get it to work again.  Is this a bug or a
> limitation?  Can it be fixed or should I work around it?
>
> I am using Linux 2.4.20-ben10 (powerpc kernel) on a PowerBook G4.  The
> code is attached.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>

Hi,

I found the same problem when I was trying to use the module to give
image brightness data back to the mouse.  It would work for a while, but
inevitably it would crash.  I think I got around it by only sending data
to the mouse when I thought it wasn't buzzing.  This seemed to work for
something as imprecise as a mouse on an image, but it probably won't
work in your case.  

As for whether it is a hardware limitation or not, I don't know.  I can
say that I wouldn't recommend using the module written for `high end'
tasks.  It's only a first draft to see what the mouse could do and to
hopefully pave the way towards a real driver.  I haven't worked on it in
almost a year - The novelty of working on a driver for a buzzing mouse
died off very quickly as soon as I got it buzzing, and I realised that I
really didn't have any use for it.

I think that rewriting the module and adding checks so it can't be
overloaded might be a good thing to do. Of course, I don't think I'll be
doing it, I don't even have a buzzing mouse anymore.

Happy Coding
  Josh

Re: [Tactile-devel] ifeel module crashs when data sent too fast

[Alex D. <ag...@ya...>]

wow.  this is the first email I've gotten from this list in about a
year.  I forget my mouse even made vibrations.  I wish I could help
you, but I haven't looked at this in ages.

you might want to try the linux-kernel or linux input mailing lists, or
take a look at http://linuxconsole.sourceforge.net/

Good luck.

Alex

--- Hans-Christoph Steiner <ha...@ed...> wrote:
> 	
> I wrote an object to use iFeel mice with Pure Data 
> (http://pure-data.sf.net) using the ifeel kernel module from 
> tactile.sf.net.  Basically I want to use this object to feed audio
> into 
> the mouse so that you can feel the music that you are creating with
> the 
> mouse.  But the problem is that when I send ioctl(ifeel, 
> USB_IFEEL_BUZZ_IOCTL, &command) too fast, the kernel module crashes, 
> and I have to restart to get it to work again.  Is this a bug or a 
> limitation?  Can it be fixed or should I work around it?
> 
> I am using Linux 2.4.20-ben10 (powerpc kernel) on a PowerBook G4. 
> The 
> code is attached.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> .hc
> 
> 	zen
> 	   \
> 	    \
> 	     \
> 
> 
> 

> ATTACHMENT part 2 application/octet-stream x-unix-mode=0644;
name=help-ifeel.pd
> /* 
>  * ifeel mouse object for Miller Puckette's Pure Data
>  * copyright 2003 Hans-Christoph Steiner <ha...@ed...>
> 
>  * This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or     
>          
>  * modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License       
>          
>  * as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2    
>          
>  * of the License, or (at your option) any later version.            
>          
>  * This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,   
>          
>  * but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of    
>          
>  * MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the     
>          
>  * GNU General Public License for more details.                      
>          
>  * You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License 
>          
>  * along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software       
>          
>  * Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 
> 02111-1307, USA. 
>  *
>  *
>  * based on ifeel_send.c from the linux iFeel driver:
>  * http://sourceforge.net/projects/tactile
>  *
>  * there is a difference in the naming schemes of the ifeel driver
> and this 
>  * object.  The ifeel driver uses strength, delay, and count.  This
> object 
>  * uses level, interval, and count.
>  *
>  * strength/level - the strength of the pulse (I am searching for a
> better word)
>  * delay/interval - the interval in between each pulse
>  * count          - the total number of pulses to do
>  */
> 
> #include "m_pd.h"
> 
> #include <unistd.h>
> #include <sys/ioctl.h>
> #include <stdio.h>
> #include <sys/types.h>
> #include <sys/stat.h>
> #include <fcntl.h>
> #include <errno.h>
> #include <string.h>
> #include <time.h>
> 
> #include "ifeel.h"
> 
> 
> #define DEBUG(x)
> /*#define DEBUG(x) x */
> 
> 
> #define IFEEL_DEVICE    "/dev/input/ifeel0"
> 
> static t_class *ifeel_class;
> 
> typedef struct _ifeel {
> 	t_object x_obj;
> 	int x_fd;
> 	struct ifeel_command x_ifeel_command;
> } t_ifeel;
> 
> 
> 
>
/******************************************************************************
> support functions
>
******************************************************************************/
> 
> void ifeel_playcommand(t_ifeel *x) {
> /*   const struct timespec *requested_time; */
> /*   struct timespec *remaining; */
> 
>   if (ioctl(x->x_fd, USB_IFEEL_BUZZ_IOCTL, &x->x_ifeel_command) < 0)
> {
>     post("x->x_fd: %d",x->x_fd);
>     post("level: %d   interval: %d   count:
>
%d",x->x_ifeel_command.strength,x->x_ifeel_command.delay,x->x_ifeel_command.count);
>     post("ERROR %s", strerror(errno));
>     close(x->x_fd);  
>   }
> 
>   DEBUG(
>   post("level: %d   interval: %d   count:
>
%d",x->x_ifeel_command.strength,x->x_ifeel_command.delay,x->x_ifeel_command.count);
>   post("");)
> }
> 
> 
>
/******************************************************************************
> input/control functions
>
******************************************************************************/
> void ifeel_start(t_ifeel *x) {
>   DEBUG(post("ifeel_start");)
> 
>   /* 
>    * since ifeel_stop sets everything to zero, we need to
>    * read the inlets again to get current values 
>    */
>   
>   ifeel_playcommand(x);
> }
> 
> void ifeel_stop(t_ifeel *x) {
>   DEBUG(post("ifeel_stop");)
>   
>   /* 
>    * there is no 'stop' ioctl, so set everything to zero 
>    * to achieve the same effect                          
>    */
>   x->x_ifeel_command.strength = 0;
>   x->x_ifeel_command.delay = 0;
>   x->x_ifeel_command.count = 0;
> 
>   ifeel_playcommand(x);
> }
> 
> void ifeel_level(t_ifeel *x, t_floatarg level) {
>   DEBUG(post("ifeel_level");)
>   
>   /* 
>    * make sure its in the proper range 
>    * this object takes floats 0-1
>    * the ifeel driver takes ints 0-255
>    */
>   level = level * 255;
>   level = (level > 255 ? 255 : level);
>   level = (level < 0 ? 0 : level);
> 
>   x->x_ifeel_command.strength  = (unsigned int)level;
> }
> 
> void ifeel_interval(t_ifeel *x, t_floatarg interval) {
>   DEBUG(post("ifeel_interval");)
>   
>   interval = (interval < 0 ? 0 : interval);
> 
>   x->x_ifeel_command.delay  = (unsigned int)interval;
> }
> 
> void ifeel_count(t_ifeel *x, t_floatarg count ) {
>   DEBUG(post("ifeel_count");)
>   
>   count = (count < 0 ? 0 : count);  
> 
>   x->x_ifeel_command.count  = (unsigned int)count;
> }
> 
> static int ifeel_open(t_ifeel *x) {
>   return 1;
> }
> 
>
/******************************************************************************
>   init/free functions
>
******************************************************************************/
> 
> void ifeel_free(t_ifeel *x)
> {
>   DEBUG(post("ifeel_free");)
>   
>   /* stop effect */
>   ifeel_stop(x);
>   
>   /* close device */
>   close(x->x_fd);
> }
> 
> void *ifeel_new(t_symbol *device, t_floatarg level, t_floatarg
> interval, t_floatarg count) {
>   DEBUG(post("ifeel_new");)
> 
>   t_ifeel *x = (t_ifeel *)pd_new(ifeel_class);
>   
>   post("iFeel mouse, by Hans-Christoph Steiner <ha...@ed...>");
>   post("");
>   post ("WARNING * WARNING * WARNING * WARNING * WARNING * WARNING *
> WARNING");
>   post ("This object is under development!  The interface could
> change at anytime!");
>   post ("As I write cross-platform versions, the interface might have
> to change.");
>   post ("WARNING * WARNING * WARNING * WARNING * WARNING * WARNING *
> WARNING");
>   post("");
>   
>   /* 
>    * init to zero so I can use the ifeel_* methods to set the 
>    * struct with the argument values
>    */
>   x->x_ifeel_command.strength = 0;
>   x->x_ifeel_command.delay = 0;
>   x->x_ifeel_command.count = 0;
> 
=== message truncated ===> #define USB_IFEEL_BUZZ_IOCTL _IOW('U', 1,
struct ifeel_command)
> 
> struct ifeel_command {
>     unsigned int strength;
>     unsigned int delay;
>     unsigned int count;
> };
> 


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Re: [Tactile-devel] ifeel module crashs when data sent too fast

[Dan M. <da...@mo...>]

On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

> I wrote an object to use iFeel mice with Pure Data
> (http://pure-data.sf.net) using the ifeel kernel module from
> tactile.sf.net.  Basically I want to use this object to feed audio into
> the mouse so that you can feel the music that you are creating with the
> mouse.  But the problem is that when I send ioctl(ifeel,
> USB_IFEEL_BUZZ_IOCTL, &command) too fast, the kernel module crashes,
> and I have to restart to get it to work again.  Is this a bug or a
> limitation?  Can it be fixed or should I work around it?

Whoa.  Someone actually got around to writing a kernel module?  ;)

I (obviously) haven't used it, but the iFeel mouse does have limitations
on how fast it can buzz, so it might be difficult to get it to produce
accurate 'sound' other than low frequencies.  Even thought it can vibrate
pretty fast, it isn't a speaker, so switching between frequencies will be
hard (slow).

Some info (it's pretty old, but I don't think it has changed and I no
longer have access to an iFeel anyway) at:

	http://inebriated-innovation.org/ifeel/

I'll have to check out the kernel module and see if they found anything
that I didn't...

-- 
Dan@Moore.cx
moore.cx/dan
NeXTmail OK!

[Tactile-devel] ifeel module crashs when data sent too fast

[Hans-Christoph S. <ha...@ed...>]

	
I wrote an object to use iFeel mice with Pure Data 
(http://pure-data.sf.net) using the ifeel kernel module from 
tactile.sf.net.  Basically I want to use this object to feed audio into 
the mouse so that you can feel the music that you are creating with the 
mouse.  But the problem is that when I send ioctl(ifeel, 
USB_IFEEL_BUZZ_IOCTL, &command) too fast, the kernel module crashes, 
and I have to restart to get it to work again.  Is this a bug or a 
limitation?  Can it be fixed or should I work around it?

I am using Linux 2.4.20-ben10 (powerpc kernel) on a PowerBook G4.  The 
code is attached.

Thanks in advance,

.hc

	zen
	   \
	    \
	     \

Re: [Tactile-devel] Re: go at it

[Johann D. <joh...@it...>]

Josh wrote:
> 
> I realise that at the moment I only utilise the input module, but I
> intend to incorporate the iFeel into hid. I'm not exactly sure I'll go
> about it at this at this point, but it is definitely on my to-do list.
> 

That would be nice. There are already two ff-extensions being developed 
for hid (one for Logitech devices, one for PID devices).

-- 
Johann Deneux

Re: [Tactile-devel] Re: go at it

[Josh <ph...@us...>]

Hi, 

Thanks for the advice, any help is much appreciated.

> Have you looked at this?
> 
> http://user.it.uu.se/~johannd/projects/ff/
>
> 
> Rather than reinvent the wheel with custom ioctls and things, you
> might want to try to stick close to this approach.
> 

I looked into using the input events but decided that for a first
release, making my own ioctl requests was easier than understanding how
the input events worked. I will look into this later, and more than
likely change it, but for now, ioctl's will have to do.

> 
> Also see:
> http://linuxconsole.sourceforge.net/input/input.html
> http://linuxconsole.sourceforge.net/
> 
> 
> (I think) the trick is getting the iFeel to work without totally
> replacing the Linux hid driver. That either means augmenting the
> hid device (there are a few approaches to this), or doing a
> userspace driver (with libusb, for example). I'm not sure what
> you want to do, or if these are the only good approaches.
> 

I've thought about it and I feel (no pun intended) that a kernel driver
is preferable to a userspace driver as most of the work is already done.

I realise that at the moment I only utilise the input module, but I
intend to incorporate the iFeel into hid. I'm not exactly sure I'll go
about it at this at this point, but it is definitely on my to-do list.

> 
> 
> Also, you can subscribe to the mailing list:
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/tactile-devel
> 

Already done :o)

> 
> And be sure to read the archives (if you haven't already)! There's
> some good info there.
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=1231
> 

Been through there too - I've taken in what was there, but I wanted to
get an independent driver working before I did anything fancy.

> 
> Adam
> 

So to sum up, I'll be thinking about all those things. I'm afraid that
my involvement in the development of the driver will slow down quite a
lot over the next 6 weeks or so, but after that I should be free to make
some major changes. This release was really to get the ball rolling
again on the iFeel project and let people know that someone is at least
thinking about their poor un-buzzing mouse.

	Josh

[Tactile-devel] Re: go at it

[Adam G. <ad...@ev...>]

Have you looked at this?

http://user.it.uu.se/~johannd/projects/ff/


Rather than reinvent the wheel with custom ioctls and things, you
might want to try to stick close to this approach.


Also see:
http://linuxconsole.sourceforge.net/input/input.html
http://linuxconsole.sourceforge.net/


(I think) the trick is getting the iFeel to work without totally
replacing the Linux hid driver. That either means augmenting the
hid device (there are a few approaches to this), or doing a
userspace driver (with libusb, for example). I'm not sure what
you want to do, or if these are the only good approaches.



Also, you can subscribe to the mailing list:
http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/tactile-devel


And be sure to read the archives (if you haven't already)! There's
some good info there.
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=1231


Adam



On Sat, Sep 28, 2002 at 01:57:41PM +1000, Josh wrote:
> From: Adam Goode <go...@us...>
> Subject: go at it
> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 07:32:39 -0700
> 
> > You're a full admin on tactile now... I expect
> > great things!
> 
> Thanks, I'll see what I can do.
> 

Re: [Tactile-devel] Hey yo...

[Johann D. <joh...@it...>]

dsakmar wrote:
> Hiya there,

Hi,

> 
> I started out the night by reading up on system mods and after putting a blue 
> LED into my mouse I got the idea of moding it further by replacing the 
> vibrator with a fan and coding some software to run it since I wasn't using 
> the iFeel aspect of the mouse.  While searching for drivers I could hack to do 
> what I wanted I made my way to Logitech's website and after reading for a few 
> hours and finding nothing useful I found myself here.  Just to let you know 
> right off I have been running different distributions of GNU/Linux for the 
> past 2 or so years.  For the past year I have been running Debian solely and 
> as I am fairly comfortable with the OS now.  I am even considering getting a 
> RedHat certification to accompany my CS/CIS degree I am currently working 
> towards at Kent State University.  As far as my programming experience is 
> concerned, I have been into hacking code as a hobby for the past 9 years and 
> although my knowledge is limited in areas I consider myself fairly well versed 
> in the basics of basic, VB, and C++, as well as scripting languages like HTML 
> and java.  Granted not enough to code the drivers for this but I was hoping to 
> get on the team just for the learning experience and so I could start 
> contributing more to the community.   I find a lot of times just reading 
> through code can be more enlightening than reading books on theory and 
> whatnot. If you could use me please let me know and I will be glad to 
> contribute whatever I can.
> 

I don't think there really is a need for a team of programmers to code a
driver for this mouse to support force feedback.
The protocol is known, the API is there (input/event). It should not be 
too hard. It's just a matter of someone having the time, hardware and 
abilities starting to code the thing.
Up to now, several people said they would try, yet I haven't heard of their
results.

-- 
Johann Deneux

[Tactile-devel] Hey yo...

[dsakmar <ds...@ke...>]

Hiya there,

I started out the night by reading up on system mods and after putting a blue 
LED into my mouse I got the idea of moding it further by replacing the 
vibrator with a fan and coding some software to run it since I wasn't using 
the iFeel aspect of the mouse.  While searching for drivers I could hack to do 
what I wanted I made my way to Logitech's website and after reading for a few 
hours and finding nothing useful I found myself here.  Just to let you know 
right off I have been running different distributions of GNU/Linux for the 
past 2 or so years.  For the past year I have been running Debian solely and 
as I am fairly comfortable with the OS now.  I am even considering getting a 
RedHat certification to accompany my CS/CIS degree I am currently working 
towards at Kent State University.  As far as my programming experience is 
concerned, I have been into hacking code as a hobby for the past 9 years and 
although my knowledge is limited in areas I consider myself fairly well versed 
in the basics of basic, VB, and C++, as well as scripting languages like HTML 
and java.  Granted not enough to code the drivers for this but I was hoping to 
get on the team just for the learning experience and so I could start 
contributing more to the community.   I find a lot of times just reading 
through code can be more enlightening than reading books on theory and 
whatnot. If you could use me please let me know and I will be glad to 
contribute whatever I can.

-David A. Sakmar
 ds...@ke...
 GAIM DASakmar

Re: [Tactile-devel] Advances ?

[Dan M. <da...@mo...>]

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Alex Deucher wrote:

> check out the linux console/input project
> (http://linuxconsole.sourceforge.net/).  There was
> some work done there (or mentioned anyway).  I haven't
> really been following it though.

Looks like this is a place to which this support should be added.  I 
didn't see any tactile or iFeel specific info on there, though.

> --- Johann Deneux <de...@if...> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I was wondering, is there is still something
> > happening here ? What's the status of the project ?
> > 
> > Do we have yet an idea of the protocol used by this
> > beast ?
> > 
> > Daniel C. Moore seems to have kept working on it
> > (for BeOS, at least). See:
> > http://moore.cx/out/ifeel/

Actually, I haven't even touched an iFeel mouse in about 6 months -- the
one I used was at work.  I just happened to notice that some non-Logitech
iFeel mice had been released, and updated the page to reflect that.

> > Can anyone confirm/complete the data available there
> > ? Did anyone manage to get it to work under Linux ?

That page has been up for quite some time and has gotten lots of hits, but
I haven't gotten any feedback whatsoever on it.  I'm pretty sure there's
nothing left to discover with it, since everything I've seen the official
Immersion stuff do can be recreated with those commands.  Of course, the
software end of things needs some work.

My initial attempts to get it working under Linux failed because, as it
turns out, the motherboard in the computer I was using has some problems
using USB and two processors.  I've since enabled the appropriate
workaround in Linux, and can probably get it working when I get my hands
on another iFeel.  At this point, I'm unemployed and trying to start a
business, so a vibrating mouse isn't at the top of my budget priority.  
Maybe in a couple weeks...

-- 
Dan@Moore.cx
moore.cx/dan
NeXTmail OK!

Re: [Tactile-devel] Advances ?

[Alex D. <ag...@ya...>]

check out the linux console/input project
(http://linuxconsole.sourceforge.net/).  There was
some work done there (or mentioned anyway).  I haven't
really been following it though.

Alex

--- Johann Deneux <de...@if...> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering, is there is still something
> happening here ? What's the status of the project ?
> 
> Do we have yet an idea of the protocol used by this
> beast ?
> 
> Daniel C. Moore seems to have kept working on it
> (for BeOS, at least). See:
> http://moore.cx/out/ifeel/
> 
> Can anyone confirm/complete the data available there
> ? Did anyone manage to get it to work under Linux ?
> 
> -- 
> Johann Deneux
>  
>
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[Tactile-devel] Advances ?

[Johann D. <de...@if...>]

Hi,

I was wondering, is there is still something happening here ? What's the status of the project ?

Do we have yet an idea of the protocol used by this beast ?

Daniel C. Moore seems to have kept working on it (for BeOS, at least). See:
http://moore.cx/out/ifeel/

Can anyone confirm/complete the data available there ? Did anyone manage to get it to work under Linux ?

-- 
Johann Deneux
 
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[Tactile-devel] hi

[Dan M. <da...@mo...>]

greetings,

[from the mailing list archive]

Johann Deneux wrote:

> Are you sure this could be used ? The kind of feedback described relates
> to numbers that could be printed on a small LCD, or character strings. 
> It is also possible to ring a bell, for example. All of those are indeed
> feedbacks, but not *force* feedbacks.

the iFeel feedback is hardly 'force' feedback, only tactile.  its more 
like ringing a bell than using a whiz-bang force-feedback joystick.  

-- 
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moore.cx/dan
NeXTmail OK!

[Tactile-devel] Re: Force feedback for mice

[Johann D. <johannd@DoCS.UU.SE>]

On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Dakkar wrote:

> Some thoughts:
> - the USB hid module _does_ support Logitech USB mice, including iFeel
> - adding force feedback features would mean more or less copy the
>   relevant parts from joystick drivers

Mmh, I am not sure there is much code in common between iforce joysticks
and IFeel mice. They do not support the same effects, and they do not seem
to use the same protocol. But adding the ff skeleton to hid should really
not be a problem.
We need to modify input.h, however, to add support for vibrating effects.

> - for X11 support, we must keep it network-transparent
> - take a look at <X11/extensions/XInput.h>: there already is support
>   for 'feedback' devices: Ptr, Kbd, Led, Integer, String. Using these
>   we could implement network-transparent force-feedback without
>   writing X11 extensions (just an XInput driver)

Are you sure this could be used ? The kind of feedback described relates
to numbers that could be printed on a small LCD, or character strings. It
is also possible to ring a bell, for example. All of those are indeed
feedbacks, but not *force* feedbacks.

-- 
Johann Deneux

[Tactile-devel] Re: Force feedback for mice (fwd)

[Alex D. <ag...@ya...>]

Yes, I can confirm the ifeel mouse works with the HID
driver.  I use one at home.

Alex

--- Johann Deneux <johannd@DoCS.UU.SE> wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Alex Deucher wrote:
> 
> > I've had no luck with my own attemps using USB
> snoopy.
> >  It either does nothing or locks up.  I haven't
> looked
> > at it in a while though.  BTW, I have the ifeel
> mouse,
> > not the mouseman.  
> > 
> > It seems to me that Daniel's decoding of the
> protocol
> > would be enough to cobble together some sort of
> driver
> > for linux.  Although I'm not sure how one would go
> > about adding support for tactile functionality to
> X11.
> 
> I suggest we first focus on the kernel part.
> 
> >    I suppose it would require an Xinput driver
> that
> > interfaced with the kernel driver.  Although you'd
> > have to make it portable to other OS's.  Or
> perhaps
> > using some userspace daemon.  And you'd need an
> > interface to configure the type of sensation you
> got. 
> > Any thoughts?
> 
> I would like to use the existing inout event
> interface. For a description
> of the interface for iforce joysticks, see:
>
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/linuxconsole/ruby/linux/Documentation/input/ff.txt
> 
> Briefly:
> - Device capabilities are queried using ioctls on
> /dev/input/eventXX
> Those include number of simultaneous effects
> supported, type of effects,
> number of axes
> - Effects are uploaded to the device using ioctls
> - Effects are started/interrupted using writes
> - Reads return events (button pressed, device moved,
> effect
> started/stopped)
> 
> > 
> > perhaps we could use an existing X11 USB mouse
> driver
> > as a model, and add some fields to the protocol
> for
> > the vibrations...
> 
> I am not sure, but I think the IFeel mice are
> supported by the hid
> module. Adding force feedback support would simply
> consist in implementing
> the upload_effect memeber of the input_dev struct
> (see
> ruby/linux/include/linux/input.h in the linuxconsole
> CVS tree).
> 
> 
> > 
> > Also, where do I subscribe to the tactile-devel
> list?
> 
> see http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=30872
> 
> -- 
> Johann Deneux
> 


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[Tactile-devel] Re: Force feedback for mice

[Dakkar <da...@th...>]

Some thoughts:
- the USB hid module _does_ support Logitech USB mice, including iFeel
- adding force feedback features would mean more or less copy the
  relevant parts from joystick drivers
- for X11 support, we must keep it network-transparent
- take a look at <X11/extensions/XInput.h>: there already is support
  for 'feedback' devices: Ptr, Kbd, Led, Integer, String. Using these
  we could implement network-transparent force-feedback without
  writing X11 extensions (just an XInput driver)

--=20

	Dakkar - da...@th...
	<Mobilis in mobile>

Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum --
"I think that I think, therefore I think that I am."
		-- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

[Tactile-devel] Re: Force feedback for mice (fwd)

[Johann D. <johannd@DoCS.UU.SE>]

On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Alex Deucher wrote:

> I've had no luck with my own attemps using USB snoopy.
>  It either does nothing or locks up.  I haven't looked
> at it in a while though.  BTW, I have the ifeel mouse,
> not the mouseman.  
> 
> It seems to me that Daniel's decoding of the protocol
> would be enough to cobble together some sort of driver
> for linux.  Although I'm not sure how one would go
> about adding support for tactile functionality to X11.

I suggest we first focus on the kernel part.

>    I suppose it would require an Xinput driver that
> interfaced with the kernel driver.  Although you'd
> have to make it portable to other OS's.  Or perhaps
> using some userspace daemon.  And you'd need an
> interface to configure the type of sensation you got. 
> Any thoughts?

I would like to use the existing inout event interface. For a description
of the interface for iforce joysticks, see:
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/linuxconsole/ruby/linux/Documentation/input/ff.txt

Briefly:
- Device capabilities are queried using ioctls on /dev/input/eventXX
Those include number of simultaneous effects supported, type of effects,
number of axes
- Effects are uploaded to the device using ioctls
- Effects are started/interrupted using writes
- Reads return events (button pressed, device moved, effect
started/stopped)

> 
> perhaps we could use an existing X11 USB mouse driver
> as a model, and add some fields to the protocol for
> the vibrations...

I am not sure, but I think the IFeel mice are supported by the hid
module. Adding force feedback support would simply consist in implementing
the upload_effect memeber of the input_dev struct (see
ruby/linux/include/linux/input.h in the linuxconsole CVS tree).


> 
> Also, where do I subscribe to the tactile-devel list?

see http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=30872

-- 
Johann Deneux

Re: [Tactile-devel] Re: Force feedback for mice (fwd)

[Sam K. <sa...@su...>]

Hmmm... what about this:

1) Write a device driver for the mouse vibrations in the kernel, making 
something like /dev/ifeel

2) modify toolkits (Qt, Gtk, and so on) to take advantage of this.


Alex Deucher wrote:

>I've had no luck with my own attemps using USB snoopy.
> It either does nothing or locks up.  I haven't looked
>at it in a while though.  BTW, I have the ifeel mouse,
>not the mouseman.  
>
>It seems to me that Daniel's decoding of the protocol
>would be enough to cobble together some sort of driver
>for linux.  Although I'm not sure how one would go
>about adding support for tactile functionality to X11.
>   I suppose it would require an Xinput driver that
>interfaced with the kernel driver.  Although you'd
>have to make it portable to other OS's.  Or perhaps
>using some userspace daemon.  And you'd need an
>interface to configure the type of sensation you got. 
>Any thoughts?
>
>perhaps we could use an existing X11 USB mouse driver
>as a model, and add some fields to the protocol for
>the vibrations...
>
>Also, where do I subscribe to the tactile-devel list?
>
>Alex
>
>>Hello again,
>>
>>I write this mail as an intent to put in contact
>>several people interested
>>in support for force feedback for mice under Linux.
>>While I do not own a force feedback mouse myself, I
>>receive from time to
>>time mails concerning this subject.
>>
>>I think it would be nice if we can see how far we
>>managed to get so far.
>>
>>I found this page on the web:
>>
>>http://moore.cx/out/ifeel/
>>
>>It describes what Daniel C. Moore managed to find
>>about the protocol used
>>to generate vibrations. Adam, does this document
>>confirm your own findings
>>about the IFeel protocol ?
>>
>>The first question coming to my mind is: is it
>>possible to generate other
>>kinds of effects ?
>>
>>Did any of you succeed to spy the protocol using usb
>>snoopy ?
>>
>>For further mails, I suggest we use the tactile
>>mailing list:
>>tac...@li....
>>
>>-- 
>>Johann Deneux
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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>Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
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>_______________________________________________
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>Tac...@li...
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tactile-devel
>

[Tactile-devel] Re: Force feedback for mice (fwd)

[Alex D. <ag...@ya...>]

I've had no luck with my own attemps using USB snoopy.
 It either does nothing or locks up.  I haven't looked
at it in a while though.  BTW, I have the ifeel mouse,
not the mouseman.  

It seems to me that Daniel's decoding of the protocol
would be enough to cobble together some sort of driver
for linux.  Although I'm not sure how one would go
about adding support for tactile functionality to X11.
   I suppose it would require an Xinput driver that
interfaced with the kernel driver.  Although you'd
have to make it portable to other OS's.  Or perhaps
using some userspace daemon.  And you'd need an
interface to configure the type of sensation you got. 
Any thoughts?

perhaps we could use an existing X11 USB mouse driver
as a model, and add some fields to the protocol for
the vibrations...

Also, where do I subscribe to the tactile-devel list?

Alex

> 
> Hello again,
> 
> I write this mail as an intent to put in contact
> several people interested
> in support for force feedback for mice under Linux.
> While I do not own a force feedback mouse myself, I
> receive from time to
> time mails concerning this subject.
> 
> I think it would be nice if we can see how far we
> managed to get so far.
> 
> I found this page on the web:
> 
> http://moore.cx/out/ifeel/
> 
> It describes what Daniel C. Moore managed to find
> about the protocol used
> to generate vibrations. Adam, does this document
> confirm your own findings
> about the IFeel protocol ?
> 
> The first question coming to my mind is: is it
> possible to generate other
> kinds of effects ?
> 
> Did any of you succeed to spy the protocol using usb
> snoopy ?
> 
> For further mails, I suggest we use the tactile
> mailing list:
> tac...@li....
> 
> -- 
> Johann Deneux
> 


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[Tactile-devel] Force feedback for mice

[Johann D. <johannd@DoCS.UU.SE>]

Hello again,

I write this mail as an intent to put in contact several people interested
in support for force feedback for mice under Linux.
While I do not own a force feedback mouse myself, I receive from time to
time mails concerning this subject.

I think it would be nice if we can see how far we managed to get so far.

I found this page on the web:

http://moore.cx/out/ifeel/

It describes what Daniel C. Moore managed to find about the protocol used
to generate vibrations. Adam, does this document confirm your own findings
about the IFeel protocol ?

The first question coming to my mind is: is it possible to generate other
kinds of effects ?

Did any of you succeed to spy the protocol using usb snoopy ?

For further mails, I suggest we use the tactile mailing list:
tac...@li....

-- 
Johann Deneux