Re: [Rainbowportal-devel] Themes & Zen

[HolonCom S. <su...@ho...>]

Jeremy, Jonathan,
a suggestion:
If you decide not to incorporate Jonathans new 'ideas' now but you do 
evaluate them as a improvement of current Zen implementation please 
consider if it is possible to provide them as a seperate download for 
those who (like me) don't use Zen yet but might want to do so before Zen2.
Rob


on 20/03/2005 18:52 Jeremy Esland said the following:

> I agree I was vague about my thoughts on your changes. Please do send 
> what you've done to me by email. At the moment, since Zen2 is more 
> than a dream and the timescale is relatively short, I'd say let's wait 
> for Zen2 to incorporate any new ideas. But I'll reserve judgement 
> while we discuss this and I take a look at your work ;-)
>
> Jeremy (jes1111)
>  
> ----------------------- *Original Message* -----------------------
>   
> *From:* "Jonathan Minond" <jon...@jo...> 
> <mailto:jon...@jo...>
> *To:* <rai...@li...> 
> <mailto:rai...@li...>
> *Date:* Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:35:32 +0200
> *Subject: _RE: re[2]: [Rainbowportal-devel] Themes & Zen_*
>   
>
> Understanding I agree is the way forward. But I am not sure if you 
> meant that minor changes were good or bad at the moment. Basically, I 
> want to e-mail you what I set up, if you agree, you can test it right 
> quick, and see that it still works with the current zen, along with 
> that I would like to e-mail you the css files that I think might help 
> people Now, with the current release, and easily keep us from worrying 
> until sept. J I hope to be at the conference, so I will be looking 
> forward to Zen2... now that you mentioned a dead line.. ok, no 
> pressure... but yeah.
>
> Im not sure you got my other mails, so I don't know where you would 
> like me to send you the files I set up please let me know where to 
> post or send. Basically I converted most of the zen-started to the 
> theme from the flexible layout, and added clear visible backgrounds 
> and items. There is no float problem, or any intimidating god fearing 
> issues, so that new comers for the next several months can enjoy zen 
> as I do now... and not fear it as I did a week ago.
>
> Hopefull with the better zen starter for the NOW, and the knowledge of 
> a dreamy Zen2 coming, we can all Sleep better at night weather we 
> choose IE7 or not, doesn't matter... everyone can pick their own using 
> Rainbow.Config. Although, based on the comments you've mentioned I 
> will give it another go to see if I can get more usable results in the 
> now. Part of my difference from some of you might be that I have less 
> pressures or deadlines with outside projects. My interest in rainbow, 
> and developing is long term as I am only 25 and trying to set up my 
> ideas and business practices. My goal here is to push rainbow as far 
> as It can go before the conference in sept. so since Zen is apparently 
> in better hands with you than with me ;-) I will help make sure to the 
> best of my ability you have clean module html to work with, or as 
> clean as I can get them all one by one along with everything else 
> everyone always has to do.
>
>  
>
> -Jonathan
>
>  
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* rai...@li... 
> [mailto:rai...@li...] *On Behalf Of 
> *Jeremy Esland
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 20, 2005 6:32 PM
> *To:* rai...@li...
> *Subject:* re[2]: [Rainbowportal-devel] Themes & Zen
>
>  
>
> I certainly hope that "understanding" is the way forward, not "minor 
> changes". I am totally guilty of not producing documentation, which 
> would certainly have helped in that respect. Zen2 is the idea I had 
> originally: total flexibilty, total control, totally zen-like. I had 
> to make the first version the way it is because of two major issues:
>
>  
>
> 1) lack of time to re-engineer the whole admin system to suit arbitary 
> layout areas, and
>
> 2) backward compatibilty, especially (as you mention) in the gung-ho 
> use of depracated formatting in so many of the module .ascx files.
>
>  
>
> That is to say, Zen will TRULY shine when the rest of Rainbow is 
> sorted out a bit more. Side note: Zen can already handle modules in 
> the header and footer: see the Google ads in the footer of 
> www.rainbowportal.net <http://www.rainbowportal.net>. But to do that 
> you have to manually edit the SQL table, since the admin interface 
> can't cope. Zen2 will handle ANY number of layout areas in ANY 
> shape/configuration: just give an area a unique name and Zen2 will let 
> you place modules in it.
>
>  
>
> The REASON why Zen rocks is actually that CSS ROCKS! Zen is simply a 
> way of gaining access to the immense power and flexibilty of CSS2. I 
> regard Zen as a paintbrush rather than a painting: with it you can 
> create unique and beautiful results, limited only by your own 
> creativity and hard work. And the reason that everybody (myself 
> included) finds Zen a little "hard to handle" right now is that CSS is 
> a complex, powerful programming language and we all need to treat it 
> as such and learn more about it. Microsoft are deeply to blame for 
> holding CSS back: if IE5 or 6 had been CSS standards compliant then we 
> wouldn't be having this conversation. We'd all be taking it for 
> granted that we have to learn and understand CSS in the same way that 
> we need to respect and make good use of C# and the ASP.NET framework. 
> None of us would dispute that just as you can write good C# code or 
> bad C# code, so you can write good or bad CSS code.
>
>  
>
> ZenStarter is just that: a starting point, from which you can develop 
> a good layout. The three-column layout was kept for the already 
> mentioned compatibilty reasons. The particular complexity of the DIV 
> structure was a deliberate choice in order to achieve something that's 
> very useful in the "real world" of web sites: the page content 
> occuring BEFORE the left and right columns - exceptionally useful for 
> Search Engine optimization. I agree that ZenStarter's CSS could be 
> refined: I just didn't have the time to do so before the release 
> deadline. But Zen2 will incorporate another of my original ideas: one 
> or more admin modules (or perhaps WinForms) that help in the creation 
> and control of the CSS. Basic (but gritty) stuff like setting the 
> column widths and the global fonts/colours/text sizes, etc. So you can 
> quickly arrive at a "basic framework" onto which it is then easy to 
> hang the particular "decoration" that is your "site design".
>
>  
>
> If anybody who is following this conversation has not yet done so, 
> then I urge you to try this: use Firefox to view a Zen site (like 
> www.rainbowportal.net <http://www.rainbowportal.net>), and use the 
> FireFox "Web Developer extension" to disable CSS for the page you are 
> looking at. What you will see is remarkably clean, useable content. 
> The importance of this is three-fold:
>
>  
>
> 1) "clean code is good code",
>
> 2) it's VERY Search Engine friendly, and
>
> 3) it's very accessible.
>
>  
>
> And that is the "state of Zen" that I was aiming for. Once you see and 
> appreciate that, then you "get" Zen.
>
>  
>
> Zen2 is not so far off: it's my "next big project". Maybe in time for 
> the September conference in Italy ;-)
>
>  
>
> Jeremy (jes1111)
>
> ----------------------- *Original Message* -----------------------
>
>   
>
> *From:* "Jonathan Minond" <jon...@jo...> 
> <mailto:jon...@jo...>
>
> *To:* <rai...@li...> 
> <mailto:rai...@li...>
>
> *Date:* Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:45:06 +0200
>
> *Subject: _RE: [Rainbowportal-devel] Themes & Zen_*
>
>   
>
> Ok, last follow up before I go to work.
>
> Zen rocks, even in its current state. Minor changes, or understanding 
> leads to a lot when you figure out what Jeremy originally went out to do.
>
> If we take the sample http://www.webproducer.at/flexible-layout
>
> I redid zen briefly to output the same col names and id's (id's are 
> missing in the way zen is now. )
>
> And copy the same css adding minor correction I get3 col flixable, 
> with content.
>
> When I get back home tonight, I will e-mail Jeremy my mods to zen for 
> same id's whatever. And the slightly modified css. All I have to do is 
> match up the original zen names for id's and class and it all works nice.
>
> This I think is a feasible solution for 1.5, 1.55 whatever....
>
> And gives plenty of breathing space fot Zen2!!!!
>
>  
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* rai...@li... 
> [mailto:rai...@li...] *On Behalf Of 
> *Jonathan Minond
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 20, 2005 10:29 AM
> *To:* rai...@li...
> *Subject:* RE: [Rainbowportal-devel] Themes & Zen
>
>  
>
> So if I am cleaning up the HTML as much as possible, moving to css, 
> would we be able to consider a good side plan with moving forward on 
> the dream of Zen2 where the layouts would be consumed...
>
> My question then is, would themes still be something that can be 
> global through layouts, or would themes have to be specific to layouts.
>
> Would we need to go as far as putting all module layout css and core 
> layout css in one place, and themes separate like today or what would 
> be some way to work this. I think we should try to think about how to 
> keep colors/pallets out of layout so that the layouts that are 
> consumed work with all the pallets...
>
>  
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* rai...@li... 
> [mailto:rai...@li...] *On Behalf Of 
> *HolonCom Support
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 20, 2005 10:10 AM
> *To:* rai...@li...
> *Subject:* Re: [Rainbowportal-devel] Themes & Zen
>
>  
>
> Note that the many HTML code in Modules also makes development of 
> Classic Rainbow themes a pain (imho).
> widths, heights, colors, paddings, ..... it is scattered all over the 
> place although it could easily be defined with simple css.
> But they are kept there for backwards compatibility. I will live with 
> that, for now, but I do hope that we decide that "no more HTML in 
> modules" will be a feature of v1.6 even if backwards compatibility 
> isn't completely garanteed.
>
> Rob
>
>
> on 20/03/2005 8:52 Jonathan Minond said the following:
>
> A follow up that maybe comes closer to having me understand the zen J
>
> Is it possible that many of the problems and difficulties some of us 
> have with laouts that are solid in zen, are due the a lot of the HTML 
> in the modules, and headers due to support for desktop panes?
>
> Do you think having a clean set up modules, and pages that are built 
> for zen, rather than desktop panes would have an impact in correcting 
> these issues?
>
>  
>
> - Jonathan
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* rai...@li... 
> <mailto:rai...@li...> 
> [mailto:rai...@li...] *On Behalf Of 
> *Jeremy Esland
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 20, 2005 5:24 AM
> *To:* rai...@li... 
> <mailto:rai...@li...>
> *Subject:* re: [Rainbowportal-devel] Themes & Zen
>
>  
>
> I'm really pleased that you're working on Zen already. However... ;-)
>
>  
>
> *** The IE7 issue ***
>
> The reason I chose to use Dean's IE7 is that it is a "now" solution: a 
> way of writing websites today that will keep working forever - when 
> Microstodge release their next version of IE (and assuming they do 
> make it CSS2 compliant) then we can insert a conditional statement 
> that removes the application of Dean's IE7 (just like it does for 
> Firefox now), whilst still allowing the same site to work in older IE 
> browsers. Furthermore, Dean has told me that his current development 
> work is ALL focussed on improving the speed.
>
>  
>
> This is all in line with the original purpose of Zen: absolute 
> cleanliness and standards compliance. It doesn't seem to make any 
> sense to me to go the DHTML route, or even individual Javascripts. Not 
> clean at all! Messy! Nasty! Very un-Zen-like!
>
>  
>
> One of the main aims of Zen was to concentrate ALL the formatting into 
> CSS (where it should be). Looking at the xAPI examples, you need to be 
> placing formatting "values" into Javascript - this is not a "handy 
> alternative to IE7": it's a full-blown change of direction for Zen!
>
>  
>
> Think a few (?) months down the road: Microstodge IE-next, Firefox 
> 1.whatever, improved-speed IE7... it all makes sense: since your Zen 
> site is using ONLY standards-compliant CSS2 you benefit from all the 
> progress without changing a thing - and you always remain backward 
> compatible.
>
>  
>
> Nevertheless, you may well want to apply xAPI so you can play all 
> those tacky DHTML tricks... and there's nothing stopping you. In 
> fact... you can disable IE7 very easily and "do your own thing". You 
> can inject all the CSS hacks you want, or use the outer wrapper div 
> that carries the browser id (a much easier way to hack). You can use 
> any other menu system within a Zen site, including Solpart, or even a 
> new one based on xAPI.
>
>  
>
> I think the way forward is to build on what I've already done: offer 
> xAPI as a Rainbow bolt-on, and explain in it's documentation how to 
> disable IE7 - i.e. if a user wants to get into xAPI/Javascript for 
> menuing, etc. then they can. But please, let's not polute the purity 
> of Zen.
>
>  
>
> ** Zen's DIV structure ***
>
> It's actually the right column that's outside the float-wrapper div. 
> Now I actually don't know whether I've made a mistake or not... I 
> followed the structure given to me by 
> http://www.webproducer.at/flexible-layout/ where the right column is 
> clearly outside the float-wrapper. I'd need to study it to be sure why 
> it's done that way, but I'm sure there's a reason.
>
>  
>
> Zen version 2 exists in my head already - it consumes a template 
> (probably from the Layout folder) which determines the overall page 
> DIV structure. Thus, with Zen2, you'll be able to supply any DIV 
> structure you want, including a corrected version of the Zen1 
> hard-coded structure (if it's wrong). So it wouldn't be wise to change 
> anything now. Backward compatibilty will be easily maintained by 
> simply inserting a template that matches the Zen1 div structure.
>
>  
>
> Oh, and BTW, you could do "tabbed dialogs" with pure CSS2 ... very 
> similar to the menu across the top of rainbowportal.net, using 
> "SelectedTab" to determine which positioned DIV is visible beneath the 
> row of tabs.
>
>  
>
> Jeremy (jes1111)
>
>  
>
> PS sorry for the delay in replying ... i've been away from my office.
>
>  
>
> ----------------------- *Original Message* -----------------------
>
>   
>
> *From:* "Jonathan Minond" <jon...@jo...> 
> <mailto:jon...@jo...>
>
> *To:* <rai...@li...> 
> <mailto:rai...@li...>
>
> *Date:* Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:23:42 +0200
>
> *Subject: _[Rainbowportal-devel] Themes & Zen_*
>
>   
>
> Hello everyone, This is am email regarding my efforts with ZEN and 
> Zen-Starter. This might be a long winded e-mail, but I beg for you to 
> read through and consider this matter becusae I have not been getting 
> replies concerning this So I can not in good conciounse update this on 
> CVS without others approving. I am also BCC'ing this mail to a couple 
> of people not on the list, as well as Manu and Jeremy specifically. 1) 
> After studying zen rather intensivly, including the sources provided 
> as inspiration from inside Zen, I found what I believe to be a couple 
> of minor bugs in the order the div's are stacked in the page. After 
> modyfiying the code slightly I was able to correct this in my opinion 
> to match what Jes originally intended to do. It is a minor error where 
> the left column div and floatwrapper basically. If you view source on 
> a page outputted by zen in current doenloads you will find left-col 
> outside the wrappers. This causes a wealth of problems that are much 
> more easily managed and corrected after putting left inside the 
> wrapper. Doesn't matter if content is first or last, that's just 
> modyfiying css, but left, mid, and right should all be wrapped in same 
> div, not split. I can not make this modification on my own approval, 
> because it would directly effect any existing live zen sites. You can 
> take the HTML from any page on my site www.jonavi.com 
> <http://www.jonavi.com> to see the difference in output. This change 
> however requires changes to all zen theme layout css files. 2) IE7 
> scripts in my opinion hurt your pages. They are a lovely idea, and 
> great work by dean Edwards, however in the end, they casue your pages 
> to load slow, freeze up, and have strange effects overall. I have done 
> extensive testing with the xAPI found on www.cross-browser.com 
> <http://www.cross-browser.com>, and find this to be a suitable 
> solution for rainbow as a replacement. With only minor modifications 
> you can switch the scripts, and get much better cross browser results, 
> as well as open the doors to many other DHTML possibilities you do not 
> have now. Anyone who wants some sample can once again go to 
> www.jonavi.com <http://www.jonavi.com>, first you will notice the main 
> menu is usable as soon as it loads, not freezing nor waiting for the 
> page. Anyone who registers and would like, I will give enough rights 
> so that you can look at the admin pages ( temporarily :-) ) and you 
> can preview the changes that I easily made to the settings pages. For 
> example adding tabs to the ui for site settings, and module settings, 
> by easily injecting some minor changes to SettingsTable control. I 
> have a little m ore work in truly making this compatible with older 
> themes, but it works, just minor layout bugs that are no biggy. This 
> for example is something that cannont be attained easily with IE7 
> scripts, and needs much more work to be used, or adding even more js 
> files to a page than needed. I would really need some feedback and 
> discussion to begin here, before I can realisticly consider moving 
> these Ideas into rainbow. I know that several people have live Zen 
> Sites. Most of these changes have no real effect on older "classic 
> themes" except for the tabs because they are injected into 
> SettingsTable. This means, that all rainbow sites would be effected by 
> any such changes, and I am to new to the Rainbow team to know what 
> sort of effect this would have on large scale. It is something I 
> cannot realistcly test all by myself, nor something I can realistly 
> implement into rainbow core without feedback and approval from team 
> members higher up. Either way, I am going to continue work improving 
> the tabs, and zen themes on my own but feel that it is something that 
> can be benecial to the whole community. This is not distracting me 
> from my work overhauling modules one by one, however the zen concept 
> is important to me and probably others. - Jonathan 
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