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From: Jiri K. <jir...@ce...> - 2007-03-29 08:01:47
|
Hello Shermann, SchS wrote: > yes, both of them should be always up to date, or at least the one page > which has more hits... > i use the project page, not the website, but you should know which is > more popular Well, project pages are way more popular: ~1.3 thousands hits per day while web pages have ~150 hits per day. We don't know however how many of those project page hits are project main page hits and how many are bugs/rfe visits, screenshots etc. where news items are not displayed. We think that it would be good to publish both minor and major news on the project page and let only the big announcements/achievements for the web homepage. > about news updates: > for example i just discovered that now i'm able to work again on > finished tasks. when was this implemented? as far as i know it was a Yes, that was really implemented based on the recurring requests to allow this. I have looked into the CVS repository and this enahncement was fixed on Decemeber 22nd, 2006. > ground rule, that you we're unable to do anything with a task unless you > edited the xml. by the way it's good to have this feature :) Well, our ground rule is that there is no direct support of manual editing of measured time. Users can only move already measured time from task to task. No "timesheet editing". :-) I am glad you like it! I sometimes use this as well. -Jirka |
From: SchS <sch...@gm...> - 2007-03-29 07:19:52
|
yes, both of them should be always up to date, or at least the one page which has more hits... i use the project page, not the website, but you should know which is more popular about news updates: for example i just discovered that now i'm able to work again on finished tasks. when was this implemented? as far as i know it was a ground rule, that you we're unable to do anything with a task unless you edited the xml. by the way it's good to have this feature :) |
From: Jiri K. <jir...@ce...> - 2007-03-28 20:20:02
|
Hello Uwe, yes, you can achieve this by highlighting tasks in "Times" tab of "History" view or using filters in "Tasks" tab in the same view. In the former case, check "Highlighted tasks" option, select "Keyword" and type required category into the textfield below. Then press Enter. You will see how much time you spent on all tasks with this keyword in the upper right corner of the chart and you will also see these tasks highlighted. For example take a look here: http://rachota.sourceforge.net/images/history_times.png In the latter case, click "Add filter" and setup filter the same way. You will see "Total filtered time" below the table with all tasks that satisfy your filter. However, this will remove all the other tasks from the report. For example take a look here: http://rachota.sourceforge.net/images/history_tasks.png Finally you can click "Generate report..." button to create a HTML page that could be later printed for off-line usage (invoice, work report for your boss etc.). An example can be seen here: http://rachota.sourceforge.net/en/docs/report_example.html If you have some more questions, don't hesitate to ask further. Thanks for using Rachota timetracker! -Jirka Uwe Hermann wrote: > Hello, > > i would like to create a report of my work, which shows how many hours I > work in a category (keyword). Is it possible to sum up all task with the > same keyword? > > Greetings > > Uwe Hermann |
From: Uwe H. <uwh...@on...> - 2007-03-28 19:34:56
|
Hello, i would like to create a report of my work, which shows how many hours I work in a category (keyword). Is it possible to sum up all task with the same keyword? Greetings Uwe Hermann Uwe Hermann Stann 13 56477 Rennerod 02664/6880 uwh...@on... www.family-hermann.de |
From: Henning T. <he...@ti...> - 2007-03-28 18:54:47
|
Hi Sören, both in sync would be nice. :-) Regards Henning Rachota Timetracker schrieb: > Hi Sándor, > > good point you have brought up. > > Are you thinking about these news on the Rachota website > (http://rachota.sourceforge.net/en/index.html) or the Rachota SF page > (http://sourceforge.net/projects/rachota)? > > Cheers > Sören > > > SchS wrote: > >> Jiri Kovalsky írta: >> >>> Hello guys, >>> >>> thanks for the appreciation! As for your suggestion Henning, I don't think these two small features are significant enough to qualify for a news item. >>> >> I think they are important! Since you don't use flashy minor versions >> (Rachota 2.1.2.23 :) in your builds, the latest changes are invisible to >> the regular users. if you post two lines every time you update >> something, everyone would be able to see that there's activity in this >> project (even between major releases), and there's a new build to get. >> If i wouldn't use this list, i won't know about the new builds since the >> main project page always says rachota 2.1 and not 2.1.2.23. if there >> would be a news post, everyone would see there's something new. >> it doesn't have to be long just like this: >> >> fixed: finish time bug >> new: dialogs can now be closed with Enter >> >> |
From: Rachota T. <ra...@gm...> - 2007-03-28 12:08:49
|
Hi Sándor, good point you have brought up. Are you thinking about these news on the Rachota website (http://rachota.sourceforge.net/en/index.html) or the Rachota SF page (http://sourceforge.net/projects/rachota)? Cheers Sören SchS wrote: > Jiri Kovalsky írta: >> Hello guys, >> >> thanks for the appreciation! As for your suggestion Henning, I don't think these two small features are significant enough to qualify for a news item. > I think they are important! Since you don't use flashy minor versions > (Rachota 2.1.2.23 :) in your builds, the latest changes are invisible to > the regular users. if you post two lines every time you update > something, everyone would be able to see that there's activity in this > project (even between major releases), and there's a new build to get. > If i wouldn't use this list, i won't know about the new builds since the > main project page always says rachota 2.1 and not 2.1.2.23. if there > would be a news post, everyone would see there's something new. > it doesn't have to be long just like this: > > fixed: finish time bug > new: dialogs can now be closed with Enter > |
From: SchS <sch...@gm...> - 2007-03-27 09:46:02
|
Jiri Kovalsky írta: > Hello guys, > > thanks for the appreciation! As for your suggestion Henning, I don't think these two small features are significant enough to qualify for a news item. I think they are important! Since you don't use flashy minor versions (Rachota 2.1.2.23 :) in your builds, the latest changes are invisible to the regular users. if you post two lines every time you update something, everyone would be able to see that there's activity in this project (even between major releases), and there's a new build to get. If i wouldn't use this list, i won't know about the new builds since the main project page always says rachota 2.1 and not 2.1.2.23. if there would be a news post, everyone would see there's something new. it doesn't have to be long just like this: fixed: finish time bug new: dialogs can now be closed with Enter |
From: Jiri K. <jir...@ce...> - 2007-03-26 18:50:49
|
Hello guys, thanks for the appreciation! As for your suggestion Henning, I don't think these two small features are significant enough to qualify for a news item. However, I certainly understand the point and you are right that we could improve Rachota's project page [1] to look more dynamic. We are already working with Sören on Rachota's home page [2]. We are trying to refresh news items there often and this could be copied to project page as well. [1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/rachota [2] http://rachota.sourceforge.net Any other tips how to increase userbase of Rachota timetracker? :-) Thanks for your ideas! -Jirka Henning Tietgens wrote: > Hi, > > the latest build works fine for me, thanks for it! > > I think it would be a good idea to release a news entry about this on the > sourceforge project site, so everybody can see there is some activity on this > project... > > Now I go back to enjoy using the new build of rachota... :-) > > Happy days > Henning > > On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 00:12:13 +0100, Jiri Kovalsky wrote > >> Hello folks, >> >> mission complete. If you are interested in this functionality >> don't hesitate and download the latest 2.1 build #070325. If you >> want to adjust the way Rachota displays the time in its title, just >> change value of 'showTime' property in settings.cfg file to one of >> the following possibilities: 'none', 'task', 'total' or 'both'. >> Default value is 'both' and you don't have to setup anything for the >> first run. >> >> As for the GUI, it's true that both autoStart and showTime should >> be in the settings dialog. I plan to implement it in Rachota 3.0. >> >> Besides, I have fixed another RFE: all dialogs can be now closed >> just by pressing Enter. >> >> So, enjoy the new enhancements! >> >> Good night, >> -Jirka |
From: Henning T. <he...@ti...> - 2007-03-26 12:26:16
|
Hi, the latest build works fine for me, thanks for it! I think it would be a good idea to release a news entry about this on the sourceforge project site, so everybody can see there is some activity on this project... Now I go back to enjoy using the new build of rachota... :-) Happy days Henning On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 00:12:13 +0100, Jiri Kovalsky wrote > Hello folks, > > mission complete. If you are interested in this functionality > don't hesitate and download the latest 2.1 build #070325. If you > want to adjust the way Rachota displays the time in its title, just > change value of 'showTime' property in settings.cfg file to one of > the following possibilities: 'none', 'task', 'total' or 'both'. > Default value is 'both' and you don't have to setup anything for the > first run. > > As for the GUI, it's true that both autoStart and showTime should > be in the settings dialog. I plan to implement it in Rachota 3.0. > > Besides, I have fixed another RFE: all dialogs can be now closed > just by pressing Enter. > > So, enjoy the new enhancements! > > Good night, > -Jirka > > SchS wrote: > > > Wow, i missed a long conversation today!:) > > I'm really glad you guys liked my idea, and also that it's going to be > > implemented. > > I would be fine with only the task and total options (i requested task > > time because it's the most informative for me), but the both and none > > seem also to be a good choice. > > > > About gui implementation: i second that at first it should be in the > > cfg, and later on gui level too (maybe with the recent autostart idle > > function) > > > > Sándor Schermann > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to > share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys- > and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV > _______________________________________________ > Rachota-users mailing list > Rac...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rachota-users -- Henning Tietgens he...@ti... |
From: SchS <sch...@gm...> - 2007-03-26 08:50:43
|
Jiri Kovalsky írta: > Hello folks, > > mission complete. If you are interested in this functionality don't hesitate and download the latest 2.1 build #070325. If you want to adjust the way Rachota displays the time in its title, just change value of 'showTime' property in settings.cfg file to one of the following possibilities: 'none', 'task', 'total' or 'both'. Default value is 'both' and you don't have to setup anything for the first run. > > Great! I've tested it yesterday and it's great! Thanks, it's a great add-on . > Besides, I have fixed another RFE: all dialogs can be now closed just by pressing Enter. > > this works great too Rachota's so much easier to use now, although i already learned to use alt+o shorcut for this:) |
From: Jiri K. <jir...@ce...> - 2007-03-24 23:12:44
|
Hello folks, mission complete. If you are interested in this functionality don't hesitate and download the latest 2.1 build #070325. If you want to adjust the way Rachota displays the time in its title, just change value of 'showTime' property in settings.cfg file to one of the following possibilities: 'none', 'task', 'total' or 'both'. Default value is 'both' and you don't have to setup anything for the first run. As for the GUI, it's true that both autoStart and showTime should be in the settings dialog. I plan to implement it in Rachota 3.0. Besides, I have fixed another RFE: all dialogs can be now closed just by pressing Enter. So, enjoy the new enhancements! Good night, -Jirka SchS wrote: > Wow, i missed a long conversation today!:) > I'm really glad you guys liked my idea, and also that it's going to be > implemented. > I would be fine with only the task and total options (i requested task > time because it's the most informative for me), but the both and none > seem also to be a good choice. > > About gui implementation: i second that at first it should be in the > cfg, and later on gui level too (maybe with the recent autostart idle > function) > > Sándor Schermann |
From: SchS <sch...@gm...> - 2007-03-22 19:43:27
|
Wow, i missed a long conversation today!:) I'm really glad you guys liked my idea, and also that it's going to be implemented. I would be fine with only the task and total options (i requested task time because it's the most informative for me), but the both and none seem also to be a good choice. About gui implementation: i second that at first it should be in the cfg, and later on gui level too (maybe with the recent autostart idle function) Sándor Schermann |
From: Henning T. <he...@ti...> - 2007-03-22 19:26:42
|
Chuck Burgess schrieb: > On 3/22/07, *Jiri Kovalsky* <jir...@ce... > <mailto:jir...@ce...>> wrote: > > However, if both times are selected the title gets rather long. > Thus I suggest we have only hh:mm and not seconds there. So it > would read: Rachota 2.1 - Discussion [00:15/05:34]. > > Would this be acceptable for everybody? > > > I'll buy that for a dollar... though I'd probably pad the slash > separator with a few spaces to help separate the two timestamps: > - Discussion [00:15 / 05:34] > CRB > no seconds and spaces around the separator looks good for me, too. Henning |
From: Chuck B. <as...@be...> - 2007-03-22 18:58:07
|
On 3/22/07, Jiri Kovalsky <jir...@ce...> wrote: > > However, if both times are selected the title gets rather long. Thus I > suggest we have only hh:mm and not seconds there. So it would read: Rachota > 2.1 - Discussion [00:15/05:34]. > > Would this be acceptable for everybody? > I'll buy that for a dollar... though I'd probably pad the slash separator with a few spaces to help separate the two timestamps: - Discussion [00:15 / 05:34] CRB (my apologies for the obscure RoboCop reference...) |
From: Jiri K. <jir...@ce...> - 2007-03-22 18:53:06
|
Chuck Burgess wrote: > On 3/22/07, Henning Tietgens wrote: > >> that's look fine, but what's about to have a third option to display >> both times? In this case i suggest following additional formats: >> >> Both times selected: >> ==================== >> Rachota 2.1 - [05:34:10] <-- No task is active >> Rachota 2.1 - Discussion [00:15:30 / 05:34:10] <-- "Discussion" task is active > > Looks good to me... > Chuck OK, in such case we should also allow to display no time at all: Rachota 2.1 - Discussion However, if both times are selected the title gets rather long. Thus I suggest we have only hh:mm and not seconds there. So it would read: Rachota 2.1 - Discussion [00:15/05:34]. Would this be acceptable for everybody? -Jirka |
From: Chuck B. <as...@be...> - 2007-03-22 18:23:37
|
On 3/22/07, Henning Tietgens <he...@ti...> wrote: > > Rachota 2.1 - [05:34:10] <-- No > task is active > Rachota 2.1 - Discussion [00:15:30 / 05:34:10] <-- "Discussion" > task is active > Looks good to me... Chuck |
From: Henning T. <he...@ti...> - 2007-03-22 18:01:21
|
Hello, that's look fine, but what's about to have a third option to display both times? In this case i suggest following additional formats: Both times selected: ==================== Rachota 2.1 - [05:34:10] <-- No task is active Rachota 2.1 - Discussion [00:15:30 / 05:34:10] <-- "Discussion" task is active Regards Henning Jiri Kovalsky schrieb: > Hello again, > > ok, in such case we need to decide what should be format of the title. I suggest to display the time information in this way: > > Total time selected: > ==================== > Rachota 2.1 - [05:34:10] <-- No task is active > Rachota 2.1 - [05:34:10] Discussion <-- "Discussion" task is active > > Task time selected: > =================== > Rachota 2.1 <-- No task is active > Rachota 2.1 - Discussion [00:15:30] <-- "Discussion" task is active > > What do you folks think about this proposal? > > Thanks for you opinion, > -Jirka > > Henning Tietgens wrote: > > >> Hi, >> >> I think it's ok to add a switch in the configuration file. Maybe it's possible >> to add the resources at the same time, so the translation is possible before >> in the next release the switch is build in into the gui. >> >> Regards >> Henning >> >> On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:19:58 +0100, Jiri Kovalsky wrote >> >> >>> Hello Schermann, >>> >>> thanks for confirming that it works fine now. I am also glad that >>> you find highlighting of active task useful. Now I am trying to find >>> a suitable solution to your issue #1676067 [1] regarding the >>> toggling of total/task time in the program title. The problem is how >>> to make it user friendly without adding any user interface (checkbox >>> in system settings etc.) because in such case I would have to >>> contact 8 people for help with translation. Maybe I could simply add >>> one more switch to configuration file e.g. 'showTime =' that could >>> have two values: 'task' or 'total'. >>> >>> [1] https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=760394&aid=1676067&group_id=144949 >>> >>> Best regards, >>> -Jirka >>> > > [snip] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your > opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys-and earn cash > http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV > _______________________________________________ > Rachota-users mailing list > Rac...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rachota-users > > > |
From: Chuck B. <dem...@gm...> - 2007-03-22 16:44:25
|
On 3/22/07, Jiri Kovalsky <jir...@ce...> wrote: > > > Total time selected: > ==================== > Rachota 2.1 - [05:34:10] <-- No task is active > Rachota 2.1 - [05:34:10] Discussion <-- "Discussion" task is active > > Task time selected: > =================== > Rachota 2.1 <-- No task is active > Rachota 2.1 - Discussion [00:15:30] <-- "Discussion" task is active > > What do you folks think about this proposal? > That format looks good to me. I'll likely be using the task time selection myself, and having the task name before the time value will make it more readable to me. Chuck |
From: Jiri K. <jir...@ce...> - 2007-03-22 16:32:36
|
Hello again, ok, in such case we need to decide what should be format of the title. I suggest to display the time information in this way: Total time selected: ==================== Rachota 2.1 - [05:34:10] <-- No task is active Rachota 2.1 - [05:34:10] Discussion <-- "Discussion" task is active Task time selected: =================== Rachota 2.1 <-- No task is active Rachota 2.1 - Discussion [00:15:30] <-- "Discussion" task is active What do you folks think about this proposal? Thanks for you opinion, -Jirka Henning Tietgens wrote: > Hi, > > I think it's ok to add a switch in the configuration file. Maybe it's possible > to add the resources at the same time, so the translation is possible before > in the next release the switch is build in into the gui. > > Regards > Henning > > On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:19:58 +0100, Jiri Kovalsky wrote > >> Hello Schermann, >> >> thanks for confirming that it works fine now. I am also glad that >> you find highlighting of active task useful. Now I am trying to find >> a suitable solution to your issue #1676067 [1] regarding the >> toggling of total/task time in the program title. The problem is how >> to make it user friendly without adding any user interface (checkbox >> in system settings etc.) because in such case I would have to >> contact 8 people for help with translation. Maybe I could simply add >> one more switch to configuration file e.g. 'showTime =' that could >> have two values: 'task' or 'total'. >> >> [1] https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=760394&aid=1676067&group_id=144949 >> >> Best regards, >> -Jirka [snip] |
From: Henning T. <he...@ti...> - 2007-03-22 10:36:31
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Hi, I think it's ok to add a switch in the configuration file. Maybe it's possible to add the resources at the same time, so the translation is possible before in the next release the switch is build in into the gui. Regards Henning On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:19:58 +0100, Jiri Kovalsky wrote > Hello Schermann, > > thanks for confirming that it works fine now. I am also glad that > you find highlighting of active task useful. Now I am trying to find > a suitable solution to your issue #1676067 [1] regarding the > toggling of total/task time in the program title. The problem is how > to make it user friendly without adding any user interface (checkbox > in system settings etc.) because in such case I would have to > contact 8 people for help with translation. Maybe I could simply add > one more switch to configuration file e.g. 'showTime =' that could > have two values: 'task' or 'total'. > > [1] > https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=760394&aid=1676067&group_id=144949 > > Best regards, > -Jirka > > Lexx wrote: > > >I tested it yesterday, and it works fine now! > >I don't know what the problem was, because i didn't quite understand the > >solution you wrote on the tracker page, but it's great that it wokrs now. > > > >Also the new feature (active task highlighted in green font with black > >background) is very cool and a nice addition! > >Keep up the good work! :) > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to > share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys- > and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV > _______________________________________________ > Rachota-users mailing list > Rac...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rachota-users -- Henning Tietgens he...@ti... |
From: Jiri K. <jir...@ce...> - 2007-03-22 10:20:33
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Hello Schermann, thanks for confirming that it works fine now. I am also glad that you find highlighting of active task useful. Now I am trying to find a suitable solution to your issue #1676067 [1] regarding the toggling of total/task time in the program title. The problem is how to make it user friendly without adding any user interface (checkbox in system settings etc.) because in such case I would have to contact 8 people for help with translation. Maybe I could simply add one more switch to configuration file e.g. 'showTime =' that could have two values: 'task' or 'total'. [1] https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=760394&aid=1676067&group_id=144949 Best regards, -Jirka Lexx wrote: >I tested it yesterday, and it works fine now! >I don't know what the problem was, because i didn't quite understand the >solution you wrote on the tracker page, but it's great that it wokrs now. > >Also the new feature (active task highlighted in green font with black >background) is very cool and a nice addition! >Keep up the good work! :) > |
From: Lexx <le...@fr...> - 2007-03-22 06:12:47
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I tested it yesterday, and it works fine now! I don't know what the problem was, because i didn't quite understand the solution you wrote on the tracker page, but it's great that it wokrs now. Also the new feature (active task highlighted in green font with black background) is very cool and a nice addition! Keep up the good work! :) |
From: Jiri K. <jir...@ce...> - 2007-03-20 22:05:43
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Hello Schermann, I have good news for you. Your problem was finally fixed in the latest build #070320. I would appreciate if you could verify that it works fine for you and possibly add your comments to the issue #1678056. Thanks for your persistence and patience! Best regards, -Jirka Rachota Timetracker wrote: >This is really great! > >Jirka and I want to thank everybody for the excellent feedback and >pushing the project forward! > >Cheers >Sören > >Lexx wrote: > > >>That's good news! I'm relieved. First it's a good find again :) and >>second it was starting to drive me crazy not to know if this was just >>something with my system, or really a bug. >>I do quit Rachota several times a day, because idle time is not >>interesting for me (i do know that i spend time with other things, more >>important is for me to document that i spend way too much time with work >>every day, week and month). So if i go to lunch and i lucky enough to >>eat without working at same time, i like to quit Rachota. the same >>happens to me if i go into the office, i work home in the morning, i get >>something done in the office for some hours and then i come home and >>continue to work. So this means at least 2 two quits, and finish time is >>already dead after the first one. The good thing is that it can hacked >>with a fake task, but it will be even better when it will be fixed. >> >>By the way i filed the bug, and Rahcota still rules! (Now even more that >>the above thing is now officially a bug a not only my problem :) >> |
From: Jiri K. <jir...@ce...> - 2007-03-20 08:51:24
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Hello Federico, thank you very much for this kind offer! Actually we have been looking for somebody who could translate Rachota to Italian for quite some time. :-) Italian is currently the 4th most used language by Rachota users. So, if you really want to help all you need to do is translate the attached Dictionary_it_IT.properties file and send it back to me. This basically means two things: 1. Change the text after = character to Italian. Uppercase strings before = are keys and must be left untouched. 2. Put & character in front of the letter that should be used as shortcut. For example in MAINWINDOW.MN_SYSTEM = &System the ampersand marks S to be used as mnemonic so if you press Alt+S, this will invoke System menu item. For your information, ${0} and ${1} will be replaced by file names, task names etc. in Runtime so leave it as it is. Also don't modify other values that are not pure English text like FORMAT.TIME = HH:mm etc. As for the icon, we are certainly interested in ideas from a real proffesional. Would you be willing to come up with some own ideas? And would you be open to also slightly change the current logo so that it looks more modern? We would then organize a poll to find out what people prefer the most. Thanks a lot and please let us know if you mean your offer seriously! Best regards, -Jirka Federico Saggini wrote: > Hi! > I find your app very useful, but it is not localized in italian: I am > not a technician so I can't help very much but I can translate in > italian all the words if you give me a list. > Yes, I know, its'nt a great work, but it's all I can do :-/ > Anyway, a great work! > > I work in graphic design, and if you like I can draw an icon for this > app... > > -- > Federico > > "Per chi intraprende cose belle è bello soffrire, qualsiasi cosa gli > tocchi" - Platone |
From: Federico S. <fed...@gm...> - 2007-03-20 08:06:43
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Hi! I find your app very useful, but it is not localized in italian: I am not a technician so I can't help very much but I can translate in italian all the words if you give me a list. Yes, I know, its'nt a great work, but it's all I can do :-/ Anyway, a great work! I work in graphic design, and if you like I can draw an icon for this app..= . --=20 Federico "Per chi intraprende cose belle =E8 bello soffrire, qualsiasi cosa gli tocc= hi" - Platone |