From: lcc <lc...@6z...> - 2009-07-30 09:41:44
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What you describe is a common pattern in portuguese naming but manyof the statements you made are not true. First of all "everyone has two surnames"should be "everyone has at least two surnames". Having four surnames is commonin Portugal and Brazil. What is called "compound surname" is actually when twowords are combined in a single surname and this is carried on usually in the male line.For instance 1 João de Lima e Silva11 Fernando de Lima e Silva111 Joaquim de Lima e Silva"All the children of a marriage have the same pair of surnames." Not true. When yougo further in your investigation you might find large families where every sibling hasa different combination of surnames. Surnames often pass through the female line tooand can come from grandparents or distant forefathers."If a daughter marries, she drops the first surname but keeps the second, and adds herhusband's second surname at the end, which is the same pair of names her children will get."This is a common pattern but it seems nowadays women are keeping their full birth names and just adding the husband's name.As for your question, you shouldn't have trouble dealing with this in GRAMPS. Thereare many ways. A real "compound surname" can be entered in the surname field. Otherwiseyou can use the male line surname in the surname field and put the female line one as partof the name. There are still other ways of dealing with it.Regards--lcc---Graham Seaman wrote: After doing some of my own family, I thought I'd start a new database for my wife's family. She's Portuguese, and they have a different surname system from the English one: everyone has two surnames. The first surname is the mother's second surname, and the second surname is the father's second surname. All the children of a marriage have the same pair of surnames. If a daughter marries, she drops the first surname but keeps the second, and adds her husband's second surname at the end, which is the same pair of names her children will get. So for example my surname is Seaman, my wife's mother's surnames were de Jesus Soares and her father's are Rodrigues de Sousa, so her surname before marriage was Soares de Sousa (de Sousa is a single surname..), but she is now de Sousa Seaman, same as our children. Can I fit this pattern with the underlying database in Gramps? Or does anyone know of any genealogy systems geared to this type of surname pattern? Thanks Graham Powered by the 6zap. Sign up at http://www.6zap.com for an account that provides advanced e-mail, calendar and contacts capabilities. |
From: lcc <lc...@6z...> - 2009-07-30 13:25:48
|
I think you can use the "patronymic" field for part of the surname. That's probably best. If you use part of the surname in the name field you can also define a "call name" with only the first names and have reports use them. Maybe others will have other suggestions. Best lcc On Thu, 07/30/2009 at 10:28am, "graham" <gr...@th...> wrote: > lcc wrote: > > <snipping helpful info> > >> As for your question, you shouldn't have trouble dealing with this in >> GRAMPS. There >> are many ways. A real "compound surname" can be entered in the surname >> field. Otherwise >> you can use the male line surname in the surname field and put the >> female line one as part >> of the name. There are still other ways of dealing with it. > > So what are the other ways? I don't much like putting part of the > surname in the name field, which is also what most uk computer forms > force you to do. > > Best > Graham > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus > on > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > _______________________________________________ > Gramps-users mailing list > Gra...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users Powered by the 6zap. Sign up at http://www.6zap.com for an account that provides advanced e-mail, calendar and contacts capabilities. |
From: lcc <lc...@6z...> - 2009-08-10 16:32:48
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I think using the "patronymic" field would be interesting. Maybe there could be a name change for this field, from "patronymic" to "middle name" which is more general. --lcc On Mon, 08/10/2009 at 12:07pm, "Frederico Muñoz" <fs...@gm...> wrote: > Hi, > > 2009/8/10 Benny Malengier <ben...@gm...>: >> I would expect you then use the callname to indicate the used first name. >> In the case of a woman Jane Mathilde Soares de Sousa, it would be >> Type: birth name >> First name: Jane Mathilde Soares >> Callname: Jane >> Family name: de Sousa > > Perhaps... we don't general have the concept of "call name", merely of > first name and surnames. One exception being, and the one that I think > more closely follows the intente of callname, first name combinations > like "Ana Filipa" (Ana being a rather common name) in which some > people go by "Filipa". These are "compound first names" which are very > common and generally when asked for their name people will reply "Ana > Filipa" (whereas I will simply reply Frederico). > > >> So she is grouped under the 'de Sousa' family name >> and a second name: >> Type: married name >> First name : Jane Mathilde de Sousa >> Callname: Jane >> Family name: Seaman > > Yes, if (like me) you're using the maiden name. I always use the last > surname as the grouping name, to the point were I don't actually use > the grouping feature (except for alternative spellings). > > >> Using the Group as feature more extensively, it would be instead: >> >> Type: birth name >> First name: Jane Mathilde >> Callname: Jane >> Family name: Soares de Sousa >> Group as: de Sousa >> >> So she is grouped again under the 'de Sousa' family name >> and a second name: >> Type: married name >> First name : Jane Mathilde >> Callname: Jane >> Family name: de Sousa Seaman >> Group as: Seaman > > This was my second option above, although it honestly looks like to > much trouble and not really tied to how we perceive surnames around > here. In general - and with the exception of holders of titles, etc. - > the family names are not viewed in those terms, only the last name is > used, there is no special allowance for coupling the last surnames as > a unit. E.g. the sibling of Jane Seaman would always be considered > first and foremost a Seaman, etc. > > >> As a western European I would go for the second scheme I think, but if >> a Southern European genealogist says scheme 1 is good, then that >> should carry more weight :-) > > Well, this is not even a Southern European thing AFAIK ;)... perhaps > Iberian in the way that the surnames of the mother and father are used > (and then again with differences between Portugal and Spain in what > regards the order of the names), and as I said it is not exactly > codified, and it isn't even some ancient tradition. I only have 3 > names (first name, surname of mother, surname of father), some people > have around 6 names (two first names, the two surnames of the mother, > the two surnames of the father), some something in between, etc. > > I understand that perhaps this sounds a bit weird to those used to > "anglo-saxon" (for lack of a better word) naming schemes. In the end > though I can say that the general practice is to only consider the > last surname as the "family name", and this is how it is used e.g. in > the Army, in surname ordered admission listings, etc. However I do > agree that both approaches are possible, and if the second one somehow > feels more natural to the person doing the entry go for it :) Just be > prepared to have to adapt it severely once your investigation reaches > 2 generations (or to put it better, be prepared to come up with > something that will apply when this apparently "neat" ordering of > names doesn't exist). > > Regards, > > Frederico > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus > on > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > _______________________________________________ > Gramps-users mailing list > Gra...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users Powered by the 6zap. Sign up at http://www.6zap.com for an account that provides advanced e-mail, calendar and contacts capabilities. |
From: Frederico M. <fs...@gm...> - 2009-08-10 17:23:48
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Hi, 2009/8/10 lcc <lc...@6z...>: > I think using the "patronymic" field would be interesting. Maybe there > could be a name change for this field, from "patronymic" to "middle name" > which is more general. This would be an option, although IMO only sensible with a name change (i.e. "middle name"). Especially since once you reach the XVIII/XIX century "real" patronymics are used in Portugal (e.g. "João Fernandes" -> João, son of Fernando Henriques -> Fernando, son of Henrique Gonçalves -> ad nauseam). I tend to only use the "call name" and "patronymic" when they strictly make sense. This is only my way of dealing with it, it is perfectly natural to adapt the existing fields to other uses. I tend to stray away from that route solely because I do not think that it scales well and could introduce some disparities in reports, etc. I would like to hear from other GRAMPers about the way that names and surnames are used in their countries. I know that in Northern Europe it is apparently common to have only the surname of the father, plus the first name/second name/call name components. I have also seen this in France, although I sometimes have encountered really long French names with lots of surnames. I wonder how it is in, say, Slavic countries, Greece, Italy, etc. Regards, Frederico |
From: Vlada P. <vla...@gm...> - 2009-08-10 19:26:17
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On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Frederico Muñoz<fs...@gm...> wrote: > names with lots of surnames. I wonder how it is in, say, Slavic > countries, Greece, Italy, etc. > Well, in Serbia you have a first name and a surname. If you're female, you take your husbands surname; alternatively, you could add it to your own (ie. Đukić-Dejanović), but that is rarer. However, if you go back 200 or so years, it was common to form the surname based on your fathers name (ie. Marković - son of Marko), and females always took their husbands surname. This tradition was changed by a degree of Knez Miloš Obilić (or his successor) in the early 1800. Other regional countries work mostly the same way, though for example the practice of using patronymics held out longer in some parts - Montenegro, Bulgaria (AFAIK), and south/southeastern parts of Serbia. That's basically it for the Southern Slavic nations. I do know the Russians have a middle name based on their fathers name, but that's about the limit of my knowledge. Of note is that some people choose to change their name. In my tree, for example, one person took the last name "Cvetković", based on his grandfather (named Cvetko), even though his father's last name was Perić. Some people also change their last names to sound more "Serbian" (ie. Markov -> Marković -- Serbian last names tend to end in -ić), but both of these occurrences are very, very rare. In GRAMPS, I don't use the patronymic field and instead use the last name field always. I feel that GRAMPS is more designed for the Russian use case (where you have both a permanent surname and a name based on your father) rather than the one here, where you only have one surname (which might be based on your fathers name). -- Vlada Perić |
From: lcc <lc...@6z...> - 2009-08-10 21:10:12
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Well in that case then it seems it wouldn't be a problem to change from "patronymic" to "middle name". Since the Russian patronymic is always a middle name. --lcc On Mon, 08/10/2009 at 4:26pm, "Vlada Peric" <vla...@gm...> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Frederico Muñoz<fs...@gm...> wrote: >> names with lots of surnames. I wonder how it is in, say, Slavic >> countries, Greece, Italy, etc. > Well, in Serbia you have a first name and a surname. If you're female, > you take your husbands surname; alternatively, you could add it to > your own (ie. Đukić-Dejanović), but that is rarer. However, if you go > back 200 or so years, it was common to form the surname based on your > fathers name (ie. Marković - son of Marko), and females always took > their husbands surname. This tradition was changed by a degree of Knez > Miloš Obilić (or his successor) in the early 1800. Other regional > countries work mostly the same way, though for example the practice of > using patronymics held out longer in some parts - Montenegro, Bulgaria > (AFAIK), and south/southeastern parts of Serbia. That's basically it > for the Southern Slavic nations. I do know the Russians have a middle > name based on their fathers name, but that's about the limit of my > knowledge. > Of note is that some people choose to change their name. In my tree, > for example, one person took the last name "Cvetković", based on his > grandfather (named Cvetko), even though his father's last name was > Perić. Some people also change their last names to sound more > "Serbian" (ie. Markov -> Marković -- Serbian last names tend to end in > -ić), but both of these occurrences are very, very rare. > In GRAMPS, I don't use the patronymic field and instead use the last > name field always. I feel that GRAMPS is more designed for the Russian > use case (where you have both a permanent surname and a name based on > your father) rather than the one here, where you only have one surname > (which might be based on your fathers name). > -- > Vlada Perić > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus > on > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > _______________________________________________ > Gramps-users mailing list > Gra...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users Powered by the 6zap. Sign up at http://www.6zap.com for an account that provides advanced e-mail, calendar and contacts capabilities. |
From: graham <gr...@th...> - 2009-07-30 13:11:07
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lcc wrote: <snipping helpful info> > As for your question, you shouldn't have trouble dealing with this in > GRAMPS. There > are many ways. A real "compound surname" can be entered in the surname > field. Otherwise > you can use the male line surname in the surname field and put the > female line one as part > of the name. There are still other ways of dealing with it. So what are the other ways? I don't much like putting part of the surname in the name field, which is also what most uk computer forms force you to do. Best Graham |