From: Youness A. <kak...@ka...> - 2011-10-31 21:16:06
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On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Carsten Haitzler <ra...@ra...>wrote: > On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 04:07:30 -0400 Youness Alaoui > <kak...@ka...> said: > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Carsten Haitzler > > <ra...@ra...>wrote: > > > > > On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 11:05:20 -0400 Youness Alaoui > > > <kak...@ka...> said: > > > > > > i'm already working on taskbar. i've fixed horizontal sizing issues > > > already. i > > > need to fix theme up. t_unix has pending patches for xrandr > multi-screen i > > > have > > > yet to look at - if someone wants a release them why not review those > > > patches > > > and try them out while i'm busy? otherwise this just takes longer. we > > > can't set > > > dates because so many people agree to do shit and then DONT DO IT.. in > the > > > end... i do most of it. look at: > > > > > > > Ok that's cool, just let me know and I can stress test and report bugs on > > taskbar or any other module. I also need the multiscreen stuff, right > now I > > have a script that uses xrandr, so I got the setup ready and I can test > it > > for you. > > As for dates, yes, set a date, and if someone doesn't do shit, then too > > bad, the missing features will be missing features, it shouldn't mean a > > delay of another year. > > no - i'm not setting a date. i set a task list. > Yeah yeah, you've made that pretty clear already, the thing is, we give reasons why this would be better, but your only argument is "because I don't want to" > > > > http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Release > > > > > > of the list left the following could be dropped: > > > > > > * connman module ui improvement > > > * config modules for missing e config vars > > > > > > the rest are not droppable. of the droppable ones the connman ui is > more > > > droppable. but thats MOOT right now as these are not the last 2 things > > > left. > > > > > > > We went through the list with Cedric and Gustavo, and this is the list > with > > comments : > > - Fix EFM to be completely reliable/functional > > --> That's not a feature, those are bugs, and if they are not fixed by > > the time RC1 is fixed then it's not an issue to fix them between RC1 and > > final release. > > - Redo resolution settings module > > --> It is important, and I need it myself *but* people can live > without > > it. Those who can't will just have to endure it or wait for the next > > release. > > Anyways, if this work has already been started (or not hard > > enough), then IF it can be done for RC1 then it can be included, > otherwise > > too bad. > > - Randr config module/integration > > --> I don't really know what it means, so I can't comment > > both of the above are the same and i disagree. people can't live without. > this > decision was agreed on back in march.. actually before that we knew there > was a > real need. > Well I don't think so, but if you really think people can't live without it (and can't live without e17), then someone has to make it work by the time the deadline is reached. If not, then too bad, if you can't live without it, then go hang yourself. > > > - Keymap config > > --> Same as the resolution module, while it is necessary, people can > live > > without it, otherwise, they'll endure it or wait. If it can be done by > the > > time of RC1 release, then bugfixes can be added for the final release. > > disagree. alphas are meant to be feature complete. and so what? so what if > we > do an alpha now? what will that change? all it will do is encourage people > to > NOT finish things. > how will it encourage people to not finish things? and what it will achieve? well I thought it was pretty obvious, but since you need me to spell it out for you : - You need a feature freeze in svn before releasing - You need to fix bugs between feature freeze and release - You need an alpha release to get bugreports on what needs to be fixed before the release. > > > - Get a default theme 100% ready to ship > > --> This is a no brainer, that extra polishing (what exactly is missing > > anyways?) can be done from RC1 to final. > > - Connman module ui needs to be improved > > --> I don't use it so not much to say about it, I use nm-applet with > the > > systray module. But I guess it's the same as above, while it's needed, > it's > > not something that will break the release. > > - Add config modules for all missing E config vars > > --> Same as above. > > > > > > > > > > if people WANT A RELEASE, THEN STEPUP AND DO SOMETHING! > > > > > > with those done then we can absolutely do an alpha (though it must wait > > > until > > > after efl 1.1 which is now due in about 3 weeks). > > > > > Why not do the alpha (or RC1, it's the same thing, different naming) at > the > > same time as efl 1.1 release? That's what we discussed and I think it's a > > good idea. This also sets a date for people to get their patches in > before > > the alpha release. > > hell no - not at the same time. we have enough work to do on efl1.1 - why > does > it matter that they are at the same time? other than a sudden desire to > release > from a whole bunch of people not working on the release? > It doesn't matter that they are at the same time, what does matter is to have a fixed date for it. I said at the same time as efl 1.1 because cedric suggested that (at the conference). And this isn't a "sudden desire", it's a desire that's been there for years, you just don't want to see it. You need time to rest post efl 1.1 release, fine, but set a reasonable date. > > > > mind u - this debate has come up several times in the past, every 6-12 > mo > > > or > > > so. and u know what happens? NOTHING. the people who all want it don't > DO > > > anything. i give a list of things to do (a rough hand-wavy one) and > then > > > they > > > proceed to do nothing. i have learned lessons over the 16 years of > doing > > > things. 99% of people like to spout opinions and tell you what you > should > > > do. 1% > > > actually get off their butts and make things happen at all. 0.01% of > them > > > ACTUALLY have the fortitude to stick it out long enough to get things > DONE. > > > > > Yes, I'm pretty sure it's an old debate.. now I wonder why there still > was > > no release.. maybe it's because "it wasn't stable and noone did anything" > > or maybe it's because rasterman vetoed everything, decided to get pissed > > and scare off everyone. The purpose of this thread (and probably all the > > i always set a todo list - normally broad with room to wiggle, and people > just > barely or didn't work on it. what i'm tried of is the rudeness of wanting > to > tell those doing something what to do , when to do it and how to do it and > then > not actually be doing things. that's just plain rude. don't expect me to > feel > all love and happiness because of it. > you are tired of the rudeness? well sorry about that! And I'm also pretty fucking tired of your condescending arrogant bullshit! Yeah yeah, I'm the new guy, I'm just a user, I haven't contributed anything worthy, so I should shut up, but you know what, I still have a voice, and I've heard so many 'rumors' about you, but now I believe them after I've actually experienced the rasterman ever since I joined. You talk in a condescending manner, you are arrogant, and you piss pretty much everybody off, I don't know how e17 lasted this long with you driving away everyone.. oh wait, yeah, people did leave the team, and maybe if you weren't being the dictator that you're trying to be, the community would be much much much larger. I have a lot of respect for your work, you definitely have a lot of skills that very few people have, but this does not mean you can be a tyrant dictator and do whatever you want, ignoring everyone's opinions. I understand E is basically your baby, and for sure your word is important but you need to listen to what people tell you and stop being so fucking stubborn (and I'm not saying this just about this thread btw)! While I'm on the subject, like what Gustavo said, someone emails and says he wants to help with something and all you could answer him is that he'll fail, how stupid is that? is that how you build a community ? you are poisoning it from the inside, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who thinks that (I actually know I'm not), but I always speak my mind, I'm not scared of you or scared of hurting your feelings, while I respect, I won't hold out on my thoughts just out of that respect, so I don't know if others here already told you what I've just said, or maybe they tried to be more subtle about it and you didn't udnerstand it, or maybe they did and you ignored it, or maybe they simply didn't out of fear/respect, or the usual "oh he's like that, let him".. but I needed to get that off my chest. (and yes, before I get flooded with responses, I'm not saying everyone here would agree with what I said, but I know at least a few who would). You say I'm being rude because I dare open my mouth without doing any of the work you want.. well I've wanted to help, but everytime it seems I lose my motivation, I swear I could have started working on that TODO right now, but every time I read an email from you, I get tired of that arrogance and just want to say "fuck it".. If I ask something or suggest something, you always answer like you're the all knowing God and I'm just a stupid little ant, so yeah, I'm not going to code for you, I'm not going to boost your ego by falling in line and following your orders, I'm not your stupid little soldier who is braindead and needs your guidance in this world. Maybe that's why people don't do any of the code you'd like them to do.. And for your information, I'm not "not helping", you need to realize that I am, by this very thread, by this very discussion, I am wasting my time to share my thoughts and help the project in a way I feel is useful. If you think that 'work' and 'help' can only be quantified by number of lines of code written or number of TODO items fixed, then you're wrong. But then again, of course, since you know everything and everyone's opinions are just a big pile of crap, so sure, you ignore everything the others say, so in the end, we're not helping. I may be harsh in what I just said, but I'm not politician, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it, especially since yourself don't even care enough to sugarcoat whatever crap you say to others. Oh, and you should probably read this, I think it's talking about you : http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project > > > previous discussions) is to get a point across, the release is needed, > and > > most people think that there is no point in delaying it, but if you're > too > > stubborn on that, maybe that's the reason no release was ever made, not > > about people not contributing (which btw, seeing how you sometimes answer > > aggressively, it might actually have scared away contributors). > > check history before you speculate on it. there has always been a todo > list - > it has fluctuated over time but broadly has had all the same content. > reality > is that it isn't released because people were not helping to make it > happen. > > let's just deal with the most recent stuff - the release wiki page. i > suggest u > check its history in trac. e17 release is awaiting that. yes - i veto the > release until that is done. so hold all your arguments EXCEPT about the > todo > list itself. that means either do stuff or convince me to nuke it from the > list. > Why do you get to veto? Why isn't it a vote? We've given you valid reasons to not do it that way, but you have no reasons to stick to the TODO other than your veto and because you want it that way. > > > > to everyone debating e17 release - get off your butts and do the todo > > > list. if > > > you actually DID this... it'd have been done long ago. > > > > > Still missing the point, the TODO list is not the blocker, it seems to be > > you and your decision. The release can be made now, the TODO list is > > irrelevant. > > thats a load of horse dung. the TODO list is the list of things to do FOR a > release. thus very simply - the release is blocked by the todo list. i'm > sorry > - i'm not in the school of thought that thinks u just crank out a release > every > N weeks/months just because a date rolls around. > And you're too stubborn to understand that the release should NOT be blocked by the todo list, and "that's a load of horse dung" is not a valid reason.. and you not being in whatever school of thought is not a valid reason either. > > > I tried to compromise, I tried to come up with a solution that would make > > everyone happy but you simply ignored it. I didn't write a long email to > > explain things just to have 99% of it ignored. > > the todo list already is a compromise. now the goal is to throw it out > entirely > (pretty much). that's not a compromise. nowhere near it. > the todo list is already a compromise? how is it a compromise? is it because it represents what the almight Carsten feels should be done and he has taken the time to write it up for us mere mortals instead of keeping the thought of "God's plan is unknown to men" > > Assign a release manager, set specific dates for feature freezes (which > > would come with a release candidate) and specific dates for releases. Do > an > > alpha at the same time as the efl 1.1 (NO MATTER WHAT) and get that out > of > > the door, it's in 3 weeks? then you got 3 weeks to do these little new > > features you want ('you' being anyone who wants to contribute of course), > > i'm 100% busy and solid with efl for these 3 weeks - so hell no. > so why did you previously say "in weeks" when it was said that they'd be fixed in months? so that means it will still not be fixed in months... > > and you said youself it's a matter of weeks, so prove it. If it can't be > > done in the next 3 weeks, then it will never be done. Then after that, > you > > got 1 month to iron out any bugs reported and make the whole (including > the > > new, somewhat buggy, features added right before the alpha release) thing > > more stable, then release 1 month later! If there are still pending bugs > by > > that time, then too bad, you missed the window, next release will have > > those bugs fixed. > > an e17 alpha comes out __AFTER__ efl 1.1 is out. date is not set yet. > I don't mind that, but the date must be set. > > > > fyi - that todo list was decided because those items were deemed TO be > > > critical enough to stall a release. even YOU are crying out for > multimon > > > config! you don't even give a consistent stance. > > > > > > > Yes, they WERE deemed critical, now I think what is actually critical is > to > > have a release, it's time to revisit with the current situation what is > > actually deemed critical. I gave my opinion above about them. > > i disagree. > great argumentation, thanks, now I understand better your reasons. > > > As for my consistency, no, I am consistent, while yes, I do want and need > > multi monitor support, like I said, if it can't make it then too bad! I > > prefer to see a release, to see exposure and to see the 90% of users who > > may not need multimon support be happy to use E17, and the remaining 10% > > also happy but somewhat annoyed and impatient to get the next release > that > > fixes their use cases. > > disagree. the reasons for needing this hasn't changed. > you have not given any argument against mine. > > let me be very plain here. if the people insisting on a release in "1 > month" (or whatever - given some short timeframe) regardless of features, > todo > list or quality are precisely the people NOT helping with the release. > it's all > armchair experts not pitching in. if you had been, if you did, the todo > list > would be long done by now and we'd have a release. if you help with the > release > then we will get what u want - a release in a short timeframe. > Oh you're very clear, we don't have a right to an opinion because our name is not Carsten. And if we do have an opinion, then you don't want to hear it because we're not slaves enough to listen to you and shut up when you say something, and if we do contribute then it doesn't matter anyways because we should be contributing to Carsten's vision and fixing his TODO list. Well, the "armchair expert" does not WANT to help out anymore. > > -- > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ra...@ra... > > |