RE: [Boa Constr] Boa, MVC, documentation and random bable

[Yanko, C. (GSP) <Ya...@gs...>]

XP, that's great! I have spent the last few weeks looking that over as we
may adopt here at Gerber. I didn't see where you implement first, I thought
they started with 'User stories' and then CRC. I think XP and Python are a
great fit. And please excuse my Outlook client as this email will now be
forever bastardized by it :-) 

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Riaan Booysen [SMTP:riaan@e.co.za]
> Sent:	Wednesday, May 10, 2000 4:53 AM
> To:	Yanko, Curtis (GSP); Boa list
> Subject:	Re: [Boa Constr] Boa, MVC, documentation and random bable
> 
> Hi Yanko,
> 
> "Yanko, Curtis (GSP)" wrote:
> > 
> > I'm hearing lots of great things but let me pipe up on a few items.
> > 
> > What are the 'requirements' for the 1.0 release?
> 
> * All components supported
> * Collection editor for list properties
> * Multiple selection in the Frame Designer
> * Cut/Copy/Paste in the Frame Designer
> * Built in Sizer/Alignment support
> * A few more property editor types
> 
> > 
> > Do you have any high level design documentation for Boa?
> 
> Is the above not detailed enough? :)
> 
	I thought I had seen these once but couldn't remember them. I wasn't
suggesting you didn't have any, just wanted to know for myself.

> > 
> > Don't you think it is too easy to get lost in the details of 'which
> features
> > do we want' when the focus should be on getting a working product to
> market,
> > albeit with a minimal set of features.
> 
> It is, and it's a fine line to walk.
> I regularly do the 'fun' details if I get stumped on the tricky stuff.
> 
> > 
> > I, for one, would be happy with a usable IDE that allows me to do my GUI
> > building. Code completion and such would be nice but it is the GUI
> builder
> > that sets Boa apart. (bear with me as I drift off topic for a minute).
> 
> The key here is 'usable IDE'. The current version out there at the 
> moment is a far cry from a useful IDE even if the GUI building was
> complete. Another thing to take note of is that Boa is being 
> developed in Boa, so if I implement some nifty time saving feature
> (like tooltips so I don't have to scroll around and find the 
> definition) Boa gets developed quicker. It's a gain for me, Boa and
> the users.
> All that said, I am focusing on core issues and old bugs at the moment.
> 
> > 
> > ...I feel that there is something fundementally wrong with the way we
> teach
> > programming languages and it shows up in our projects. We teach them
> like
> > the english language, learning the vocabulary and syntax first. More
> > abstractly, we teach the very small and build to the larger constructs.
> > Programming however, needs to be taught in reverse almost. Analysis
> should
> > be the first thing we teach! What is it we need? What does it need to
> do?
> > What language it is implemented in isn't even up for consideration yet!
> Once
> > we know, in detail, what we want, we can set about designing it. Do you
> see
> > where I'm going with this?..
> 
> I used to believe in this principal quite strongly but in practice it
> is very difficult to first have the perfect design and then have the
> implementation integrate flawlessly with the rest of the system.
> Have you heard of Extreme Programming? I'm basically following a mild
> variant of it. The crux of it is that you implement first and then
> design. (You also have to have extensive test cases which is the bit
> I skip because it's so tricky to test GUIs, I basically test with the
> mouse) I know this implement first design second sounds perverse but 
> it works for me. The analysis you speak about can more effectively
> be done once you've already hacked out some solution and in the
> process familiarised yourself better with the problem AND it's 
> integration with the rest of the system. Then you refactor the
> hacks into something that looks designed :)
> 
	This is great news, yet another synergy in my life which makes it a
little simpler.

> > 
> > ...back to reality. Ok... Riaan, what little time I've been able to look
> at
> > your code. I've been very impressed. I'm personaly struggling with MVC
> but
> > I'll get over it. I would like to see Boa become not only a great
> IDE/GUI
> > builder but a model of project developement as well. So... what are the
> > projects goals? What are the requirements and which ones are the most
> > important. What task are needed to accomplish them and who will do them.
> > 
> Apart from the above mentioned milestones, nothing has been 
> formalised yet.
> 
> > I think I can help with documentation and some of the coding but I've
> been
> > in a hold pattern. This is a project that is near and dear to my heart
> since
> > I have settled on Python as my language of choice and wxPython as my GUI
> > library of choice.
> 
> I applaud your choices!
> 
> > 
> > I fear this has become more bable than anything but it is my way of
> standing
> > up and being counted here.
> 
> You're counted now and will be drafted :)
> 
> -- 
> Riaan                     >>> a='a=%s;a%%`a`';a%`a`
> ___________________________________________________
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