RE: [Yaml-core] Interleaved Non-YAML text proposal.

[Nathan Sharfi <nisharfi@ts...>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: yaml-core-admin@...
> [mailto:yaml-core-admin@...]On Behalf Of Iain 'Spoon'
> Truskett
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 6:36 PM
> To: YAML Core
> Subject: Re: [Yaml-core] Interleaved Non-YAML text proposal.
>
>
> * Brian Ingerson (ingy@...) [19 Dec 2002 13:32]:
> > Neil Watkiss and I were chatting the other day. One thing that came up
> > was whether YAML cares about what text is "between documents".
>
> > In other words, could we allow *any* characters to be present between
> > '...\n' and the next '\n---'?
>
> You should. Very useful for files in transition between YAML and
> non-YAML. In particular, non-automated Changelogs.
>
>
> cheers,
> --
> Iain.

You shouldn't; if someone inserted a file between the two (one proposed use case was
to sandwich in files inbetween and turn YAML into a package format (as if the world
didn't have plenty already)), some random bytes in the file might very well be
"\n---". Don't laugh: I've scanned through binaries viewed in the browser, and
somehow, some of them manage to have bold, italicized, struck through text by the
time I get to the end.

[Yaml-core] Interleaved Non-YAML text proposal.

[Brian Ingerson <ingy@tt...>]

Neil Watkiss and I were chatting the other day. One thing that came up
was whether YAML cares about what text is "between documents".

In other words, could we allow *any* characters to be present between
'...\n' and the next '\n---'?

I'm not sure of the use cases but there certainly might be some. Neil,
do you have any use cases in mind?

BTW, I am pretty much limiting new ideas to things that wouldn't
severely break real world backwards compatibility. Non-core people are
definitely using YAML.

...
<also> :x)
---

Also, did we officially decide on:
  - \s# comments
  - %DIRECTIVE:foo
  - Starting flow scalars on next line.

FWIW, I support all of these, but especially the last one.

---
Cheers: Brian

Re: [Yaml-core] Interleaved Non-YAML text proposal.

[Iain 'Spoon' Truskett <spoon@de...>]

* Brian Ingerson (ingy@...) [19 Dec 2002 13:32]:
> Neil Watkiss and I were chatting the other day. One thing that came up
> was whether YAML cares about what text is "between documents".

> In other words, could we allow *any* characters to be present between
> '...\n' and the next '\n---'?

You should. Very useful for files in transition between YAML and
non-YAML. In particular, non-automated Changelogs.


cheers,
-- 
Iain.

RE: [Yaml-core] Interleaved Non-YAML text proposal.

[Nathan Sharfi <nisharfi@ts...>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: yaml-core-admin@...
> [mailto:yaml-core-admin@...]On Behalf Of Iain 'Spoon'
> Truskett
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 6:36 PM
> To: YAML Core
> Subject: Re: [Yaml-core] Interleaved Non-YAML text proposal.
>
>
> * Brian Ingerson (ingy@...) [19 Dec 2002 13:32]:
> > Neil Watkiss and I were chatting the other day. One thing that came up
> > was whether YAML cares about what text is "between documents".
>
> > In other words, could we allow *any* characters to be present between
> > '...\n' and the next '\n---'?
>
> You should. Very useful for files in transition between YAML and
> non-YAML. In particular, non-automated Changelogs.
>
>
> cheers,
> --
> Iain.

You shouldn't; if someone inserted a file between the two (one proposed use case was
to sandwich in files inbetween and turn YAML into a package format (as if the world
didn't have plenty already)), some random bytes in the file might very well be
"\n---". Don't laugh: I've scanned through binaries viewed in the browser, and
somehow, some of them manage to have bold, italicized, struck through text by the
time I get to the end.

RE: [Yaml-core] Interleaved Non-YAML text proposal.

[Oren Ben-Kiki <oren@be...>]

Brian Ingerson (ingy@...) [19 Dec 2002 13:32]:
> Neil Watkiss and I were chatting the other day. One thing 
> that came 
> up was whether YAML cares about what text is "between documents".
>
> In other words, could we allow *any* characters to be present 
> between '...\n' and the next '\n---'?

Iain 'Spoon' Truskett wrote:
> You should. Very useful for files in transition between YAML and 
> non-YAML. In particular, non-automated Changelogs.

Nathan Sharfi wrote:
> You shouldn't; if someone inserted a file between the two 
> (one proposed use case was to sandwich in files inbetween and 
> turn YAML into a package format (as if the world didn't have 
> plenty already)), some random bytes in the file might very 
> well be "\n---". Don't laugh: I've scanned through binaries 
> viewed in the browser, and somehow, some of them manage to 
> have bold, italicized, struck through text by the time I get 
> to the end.

OK, that's one +1 and one -1 vote.

If I understand Iain correctly, Iain wasn't suggesting the insertion of
arbitrary files between the '...' and the '---'. Rather I took it to
mean it would be easy to switch between YAML and non-YAML data within a
file, but still under some application control. That does sound useful.

Nathan's point is valid - whatever we do, you can't put _anything_
between the '...' and '---'. So the question is whether allowing
anything other than '\n---' would be tempting people to stuff anything
just hoping that "it will be OK". Good questions. Of course we can add
warnings and threats that would deter people from doing this.

Thoughts?

Have fun,

	Oren Ben-Kiki

RE: [Yaml-core] Interleaved Non-YAML text proposal.

[Steve Howell <showell@zi...>]

On Thu, 2002-12-19 at 05:13, Oren Ben-Kiki wrote:
> Brian Ingerson (ingy@...) [19 Dec 2002 13:32]:
> > Neil Watkiss and I were chatting the other day. One thing 
> > that came 
> > up was whether YAML cares about what text is "between documents".
> >
> > In other words, could we allow *any* characters to be present 
> > between '...\n' and the next '\n---'?
> 
> Iain 'Spoon' Truskett wrote:
> > You should. Very useful for files in transition between YAML and 
> > non-YAML. In particular, non-automated Changelogs.
> 
> Nathan Sharfi wrote:
> > You shouldn't; if someone inserted a file between the two 
> > (one proposed use case was to sandwich in files inbetween and 
> > turn YAML into a package format (as if the world didn't have 
> > plenty already)), some random bytes in the file might very 
> > well be "\n---". Don't laugh: I've scanned through binaries 
> > viewed in the browser, and somehow, some of them manage to 
> > have bold, italicized, struck through text by the time I get 
> > to the end.
> 
> OK, that's one +1 and one -1 vote.
> 
> If I understand Iain correctly, Iain wasn't suggesting the insertion of
> arbitrary files between the '...' and the '---'. Rather I took it to
> mean it would be easy to switch between YAML and non-YAML data within a
> file, but still under some application control. That does sound useful.
> 
> Nathan's point is valid - whatever we do, you can't put _anything_
> between the '...' and '---'. So the question is whether allowing
> anything other than '\n---' would be tempting people to stuff anything
> just hoping that "it will be OK". Good questions. Of course we can add
> warnings and threats that would deter people from doing this.
> 

I think all of the interleaving decisions should be left up to competent
programmers.  There's really no need to interleave non-YAML documents
into a YAML document, because you can always yaml.dump() the non-YAML
documents.  If you're trying to stick YAML inside of some outer non-YAML
format, then just use whatever escaping mechanism works best for the
outer format.  

RE: [Yaml-core] Interleaved Non-YAML text proposal.

[Oren Ben-Kiki <oren@be...>]

Steve Howell wrote:
> I think all of the interleaving decisions should be left up 
> to competent programmers.  There's really no need to 
> interleave non-YAML documents into a YAML document, because 
> you can always yaml.dump() the non-YAML documents.

That's not true if these parts are binary. Which, I guess, makes
Nathan's point stronger; it is hard to ensure that such blobs don't
contain '\n---'. Hmmm.

> If you're 
> trying to stick YAML inside of some outer non-YAML format, 
> then just use whatever escaping mechanism works best for the 
> outer format.  

I think the question is more sticking non-YAML inside some outer YAML
format... Brian, Neil - can you point out some use cases for this? We
need some context to evaluate this.

Have fun,

	Oren Ben-Kiki

RE: [Yaml-core] Interleaved Non-YAML text proposal.

[Oren Ben-Kiki <oren@be...>]

Brian Ingerson wrote:
> did we officially decide on:
>   - \s# comments
>   - %DIRECTIVE:foo
>   - Starting flow scalars on next line.

We are still waiting for Clark's input on all of these. Clark?

> FWIW, I support all of these, but especially the last one.

I'm +1 on them as well. I guess I'll just fix the spec accordingly and
send it to Clark :-)

Have fun,

	Oren Ben-Kiki