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From: Radu D. <rd...@ly...> - 2001-10-25 20:10:44
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Arnaldo, These are my thoughts for this evening meeting: - configuring Tomcat(maybe Hugo can help us if he has any experience) - get our accounts on Jim's box( in case we install Tomcat on his machine) Thanks. Radu --- On Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:58:51 Arnaldo Cavazos wrote: >All, > I had a good conversation with Andrew (our assigned TA) about our progress. He made a few points that I thought were worth repeating to the group (Andrew, I know you're on this mailing list, so feel free to object if I get some of this wrong or add if I leave something important out): > -He mentioned that he didn't think that the user story estimates on the course Wiki were the right way to go for an XP project. He mentioned that estimating user story lengths (in his mind) would typically take no more than 30 minutes in a chat session. > -His thoughts on Jim's "What's different on our project?" "Why don't we just use open source code?" musings: > -If we were working for a company, and not students in a course, we probably would use the open source. > -But, we're students, so it might be better for us not to, just for the learning experience > -Arnaldo's unsolicited thoughts: Why not compromise, and use some of what they have, or at least be familiar with it? > -He said that at this point, we are behind. We probably should have started coding a couple of weeks ago. > > Also, I have a standard I'd like to suggest that you may or may not agree with. Let me know if you disagree: > I've been intentionally sending out a meeting agenda on the day of the meeting, and encouraging anyone who has agenda items to email me in advance. What I noticed on Monday was that no one sent any discussion topics before the meeting, but we all (self included) had things on our mind that we wanted to talk about once we got to the meeting. Problem was, we didn't stay on any one topic, and didn't really get anywhere. What I'm suggesting is this: > a) If there's something you really want to talk about and you know it in advance, email it to me and I'll put it on the agenda. > b) If you think of something important to add after I've already sent the agenda, please mention it in the meeting and we'll put it in queue behind the last agenda item listed for that meeting. > I think this will help us stay on track better than we did on Monday. > > I'll send out an agenda tomorrow. (Right now, it's looking pretty similar to last meeting's agenda, with the addition of discussing the possibility of Open Source, and discussing what we can do to catch up.) >--Arnaldo > Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp |
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From: Arnaldo C. <ar...@mi...> - 2001-10-25 04:54:30
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All,
I had a good conversation with Andrew (our assigned TA) about our =
progress. He made a few points that I thought were worth repeating to =
the group (Andrew, I know you're on this mailing list, so feel free to =
object if I get some of this wrong or add if I leave something important =
out):
-He mentioned that he didn't think that the user story estimates on =
the course Wiki were the right way to go for an XP project. He =
mentioned that estimating user story lengths (in his mind) would =
typically take no more than 30 minutes in a chat session.
-His thoughts on Jim's "What's different on our project?" "Why =
don't we just use open source code?" musings:
-If we were working for a company, and not students in a course, =
we probably would use the open source.
-But, we're students, so it might be better for us not to, just =
for the learning experience
-Arnaldo's unsolicited thoughts: Why not compromise, and use =
some of what they have, or at least be familiar with it?
-He said that at this point, we are behind. We probably should have =
started coding a couple of weeks ago.
Also, I have a standard I'd like to suggest that you may or may not =
agree with. Let me know if you disagree:
I've been intentionally sending out a meeting agenda on the day of =
the meeting, and encouraging anyone who has agenda items to email me in =
advance. What I noticed on Monday was that no one sent any discussion =
topics before the meeting, but we all (self included) had things on our =
mind that we wanted to talk about once we got to the meeting. Problem =
was, we didn't stay on any one topic, and didn't really get anywhere. =
What I'm suggesting is this:
a) If there's something you really want to talk about and you know =
it in advance, email it to me and I'll put it on the agenda.
b) If you think of something important to add after I've already =
sent the agenda, please mention it in the meeting and we'll put it in =
queue behind the last agenda item listed for that meeting.
I think this will help us stay on track better than we did on =
Monday.
I'll send out an agenda tomorrow. (Right now, it's looking pretty =
similar to last meeting's agenda, with the addition of discussing the =
possibility of Open Source, and discussing what we can do to catch up.)
--Arnaldo
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From: Arnaldo C. <ar...@mi...> - 2001-10-24 01:32:19
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From: Bolade O. <bo...@ho...> - 2001-10-23 00:56:13
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I think this project is meant to continue on to next semester and as such.. there are opportunities of expanding / extending the feature set. The fundamental thing we are working on here is a Wiki... but a Wiki with a difference .. be it in the technology used XML, XSLT et al or added functionalities we can incorporate in it. But first and foremost it should be a Wiki.. and implement standards expected of wikis. Now the issue is this.. do we have to describe via user stories all that we expect from the project right now i.e .. have all use cases described now.. or add more use cases as we progress? I think XP allows us the flexibility of starting off with small requirements and expanding / changing requirements as we move on. So.. I think in the weeks ahead (and depending on the project velocity which ofcourse can change ) we focus on getting out a wiki that does what is expected of standard wikis and then move on to more functionalities / complexities. Bola. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp |
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From: Jim K. <ka...@ie...> - 2001-10-23 00:40:45
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I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a second... Reviewing the stories on the wiki whiteboard, why would I not just download one of the many, many wiki implementations out there (open source, too!), and give that to the customer? It seems as though all of our stories would be met using an existing implementation. In other words, I think we need stories that describe what this project is doing different than all of the other wikis. And I'm very unsure what 'xml' means in this context. If we're talking about XML storage, then a significant task will be to develop a useful wiki schema. Or we could talk about the stream of information sent to the browser being in XML, which would open up doors (and more stories) regarding presentation, but would also exclude many current browsers. I don't want to sound difficult; I'm just really interested in having this project introduce some new twists to the wiki idea which will hopefully catch on. I think that's what Hugo want, but the stories aren't there yet. See you guys at eight. Regards, Jim |
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From: Arnaldo C. <ar...@mi...> - 2001-10-22 22:31:01
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All,
-Our first agenda items are to finalize decisions on a)length of =
each iteration, b)length of each release, and c) estimates for each user =
story. This will hopefully be a trivial exercise since all our =
individual thoughts on the subjects should be on =
http://wiki.cs.uiuc.edu/SEcourse/xmlWiki+User+stories+whiteboard.
-After this, we should be able to proceed with the release planning =
meeting (http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/planninggame.html). =20
-Ambitiously, I hope that in addition to the release planning, we =
could shoot for:
a) planning for the first iteration =
(http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/iterationplanning.html).
b) assigning initial partners for pair programming
Then we could start coding this week. We'll see how far we get.
--Arnaldo
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From: Arnaldo C. <ar...@mi...> - 2001-10-16 23:36:38
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We had a very productive meeting last night. -Hugo supplied us with some user stories. -We discussed that by next week's Monday meeting, everyone should give = their own personal estimation on how long they think each story should = take. Go to = http://wiki.cs.uiuc.edu/SEcourse/xmlWiki+User+stories+whiteboard and = give us your best guess. (Use the formal I've used to add to each = table.) -We also were hoping that throughout the week, each group member could = post their opinion on how long they think each iteration should be, and = on how many iterations we can get done before the end of the semester. = Note the "discussion area" at the bottom of the page (using the above = link) and supply us with what you think about those issues. -We decided that the each week, each person will do a minimum of 8 hours = of programming. Since this is a minimum, anyone so inclined can feel = free to exceed it. :-) I think the idea of having a topic open for discussion on the course = Wiki between meetings, and everyone being assigned to post their = thoughts during the course of the week, is a good one. I think that = it's yet another way to simulate the "shared office space" idea l of XP, = and it will (hopefully) make our meetings shorter. Let's see how it = works. Let me know if I missed anything, or if you want a transcript of the = meeting... --Arnaldo |
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From: Arnaldo C. <ar...@mi...> - 2001-10-15 22:55:04
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All,
Here's the proposed agenda for tonight's 8PM CST meeting:
I. User Stories!
II. Programming Sessions
-How often will we need them?
-How long?
-Specific times
-How will we do pair programming?
III. Spike Solution (We should do this with the technology to help =
estimate how fast we can work.)
-What should the Spike Solution be?
IV. Release Planning
-What is the absolute latest time that we can have finished =
release planning by? (Note the new announcement about checkpoints on the =
course Wiki.)
-How long will release planning take?
-When should we do it?
-If we have time: discuss how many iterations we can make and =
how many small releases we have to do.
V. Other items
Not many people sent me agenda items this week. Don't forget, if =
there's anything you think we should talk about, let me know and I'll =
put it in the agenda. Not that we can't talk about anything that's not =
in the agenda, but this is just to give everyone a "heads up".
--Arnaldo
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From: Hugo G. <xm...@ya...> - 2001-10-12 12:41:06
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Hey! On Wend. night Debra and I had a chat session. It was very productive in the way that we were trying to expand on the SM but after some thought I think that we were actually in User Story mode (requirement gatherring) rather than thinking in associative mode (trying to answer "this is as..."). Please check what we came up with at the course wiki. http://wiki.cs.uiuc.edu/SEcourse/xmlWiki+System+Metaphor -H ===== ====================== Were I a nightingale, I would act the part of a nightingale; were I a swan, the part of a swan. -Epictetus (A.D. c. 50?c. 138) : Discourses. Chap. xvi. ====================== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com |
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From: HEISTAD,CHRIS (A-USA,ex2) <chr...@ag...> - 2001-10-11 13:50:38
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It did work good, but it takes some getting used to. There is a lag and echo. We tended to interrupt each other, so patience is needed. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: Arnaldo Cavazos [mailto:ar...@mi...] -> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 8:35 AM -> To: xml...@li... -> Subject: Re: [xmlWiki-developers] Oct 8 Meeting Minutes/Other Items -> -> -> > Can you use the voice-chat feature of NetMeeting while sharing a -> > workspace? -> -> Yes. At least, it worked great when Chris and I worked together. -> --Arnaldo -> -> -> -> _______________________________________________ -> xmlWiki-developers mailing list -> xml...@li... -> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlwiki-developers -> |
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From: Arnaldo C. <ar...@mi...> - 2001-10-11 13:30:53
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> Can you use the voice-chat feature of NetMeeting while sharing a > workspace? Yes. At least, it worked great when Chris and I worked together. --Arnaldo |
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From: CS327 TA <cs3...@cs...> - 2001-10-11 01:25:29
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To this list: > your code > some UML diagrams explaining it > meeting logs > programming logs > some personal reflections on what worked and what didn't I would also add: "User stories". > If you haven't seen it yet, it's probably worthwhile to check out the > newly posted http://wiki.cs.uiuc.edu/SEcourse/XP+Best+Practices , > where the course staff gives advice on what XP project groups should > do. We should perhaps think about how to implement some of these > ideas in an geographically distributed manner. PAIR PROGRAMMING For > this last HW (3&4) Chris Heistad and I worked together. We had great > success with Microsoft Netmeeting as a tool for "Pair Diagramming", > and it seems that it would probably work just as well for pair > programming. I think that Pair Programming is at the heart of XP, and > our experience with NetMeeting seems to me a strong indication that > Pair Programming could work just as well for our group as it could for > any other. (Chris, please voice your agreement or disagreement. :) ) > TEAM-BUILDING AND HWs I have an idea for people to consider before our > next meeting. Chris and I pretty well "bonded" as teammates during > HW3/4. I understand that other people in our group have paired off > together to work on HWs as well. Who would be up for switching around > partners if the course staff indicates that the next HW is able to be > done in groups as well? Disadvantage: This would mean that one > person always has to do the HW alone, since there's 7 of us, but > perhaps the course staff will broaden the number of potential people > per group to 3. Advantage: Enhanced team cohesion. Can you use the voice-chat feature of NetMeeting while sharing a workspace? Or is that too much of a bandwidth hog? If that doesn't work, and you've got spare minutes in your long-distance plan, I would consider calling each other up while pair-programming - the dialog that occurs *while* you navigate the code is the essence of it. A chat box on the side just isn't the same! - Andrew. |
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From: Arnaldo C. <ar...@mi...> - 2001-10-10 22:10:41
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All,
First, a quick summary of our decisions from Monday night:
{October 8th Meeting Minutes}
MEETING TIMES
-->Monday nights at 8PM CST are now our *official* weekly meeting times =
during which all group members have decided to be in attendance. Be =
there or be seriously out of the loop. :) We also discussed making a =
concerted effort to shorten the Monday night meetings.
-->In addition to that, we intend to simulate some of the XP ideals of =
working closely together by:
a) Having a general rule that anyone is free and encouraged to log =
onto our chat room at 8PM CST any night to meet informally with whoever =
shows up.
b) To simulate a shared office space, any time any team member is =
doing work (coding, etc.) on the project, we decided that he/she should =
log into our chat area. (For example, I'm logged into our chat area as =
I write this email.)
SYSTEM METAPHOR
-->After a discussion of different options, we decided that we could =
almost just go with the naive metaphor, and decided that our system =
metaphor would be "a publically updatable web site". (very nearly the =
so-called "naive metaphor") Basically, we all think we have some =
understanding of what a Wiki is, so hopefully the issue of needing to =
establish a common frame of reference/vocabulary won't be as much of an =
issue on this project as it is on others.
OTHER ITEMS DISCUSSED
-->We discussed/assigned roles in the previous meeting =
(http://xmlwiki.sourceforge.net/people.html), and were thinking of =
defining them even more precisely in this meeting. But, after group =
discussion, we decided that getting *too* precise in our role =
definitions would be against the spirit of the "everybody owns =
everything" spirit of XP.
-->We also had a good "what everyone wants out of this project" =
discussion. To paint with a broom, most people expressed that they =
wanted: a) a good grade b) a good product c) a good learning =
experience.
-->Hugo was unable to attend the meeting. He contacted me and let me =
know he had some personal things come up. But he also said that he =
would get back to us all by direct communication, or by updating the =
wiki and/or website.
{other issues to chew on before the next meeting}
SYSTEM METAPHOR
Something I missed about the system metaphor is that it's supposed to be =
a paragraph or two long (nothing too fancy, like everything else in XP =
but the final product). So, perhaps the metaphor needs to be fleshed =
out a little bit. Any takers? If so, go to =
http://wiki.cs.uiuc.edu/SEcourse/xmlWiki+System+Metaphor and type what =
you think. The group can review/modify your work if needed.
FINAL ARTIFACTS
Another item that we discussed was, "What exactly are we supposed to =
turn in at the end of the semester?" Well, I emailed Andrew, and he =
said:
"Well, last year it was actually up to the students what to submit.
Some good artifacts for XP groups:
your code
some UML diagrams explaining it
meeting logs
programming logs
some personal reflections on what worked and what didn't"
So, there you have it; it's up to us. So, we'll talk about what =
specifically we intend to turn in this coming Monday night.
COURSE STAFF ADVICE
If you haven't seen it yet, it's probably worthwhile to check out the =
newly posted http://wiki.cs.uiuc.edu/SEcourse/XP+Best+Practices , where =
the course staff gives advice on what XP project groups should do. We =
should perhaps think about how to implement some of these ideas in an =
geographically distributed manner.
PAIR PROGRAMMING
For this last HW (3&4) Chris Heistad and I worked together. We had =
great success with Microsoft Netmeeting as a tool for "Pair =
Diagramming", and it seems that it would probably work just as well for =
pair programming. I think that Pair Programming is at the heart of XP, =
and our experience with NetMeeting seems to me a strong indication that =
Pair Programming could work just as well for our group as it could for =
any other. (Chris, please voice your agreement or disagreement. :) )
TEAM-BUILDING AND HWs
I have an idea for people to consider before our next meeting. Chris =
and I pretty well "bonded" as teammates during HW3/4. I understand that =
other people in our group have paired off together to work on HWs as =
well. Who would be up for switching around partners if the course staff =
indicates that the next HW is able to be done in groups as well? =
Disadvantage: This would mean that one person always has to do the HW =
alone, since there's 7 of us, but perhaps the course staff will broaden =
the number of potential people per group to 3. Advantage: Enhanced =
team cohesion.
As always, if you feel that I've missed (or misrepresented) something =
that went on in our last meeting, please let me know, and I'll send out =
a correction ASAP. Don't hesitate to conact me with any questions or =
comments that I should send to the course staff.
--Arnaldo
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From: James K. <kal...@ya...> - 2001-10-10 18:05:35
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I'll be out of town (on vacation for a change) until next Tuesday. The linux box is always up so the jabber server should be fine. Feel free to start on stories or assign work while I'm gone. Regards, Jim Kalafut __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com |
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From: Deborah H. <deb...@ho...> - 2001-10-06 00:14:14
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hello everyone, I have to apologize for being "out of the loop" - This weekend is our fall break, and I am out of town. My internet connection plan has FAILED dismally, so i am trying to work out of cafes. Winjab is installed, and my id is dhinkley@24.178.71.65 the role of programmer is my desired role, so that is no longer tentative. i will do what hugo suggested and research that role some more. deborah hinkley _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp |
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From: Hugo G. <xm...@ya...> - 2001-10-05 17:04:03
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> *Note* - distilling a concise definition for every role is on my "to do" > list. (and is a good example of the type of thing I intend to do as > facilitator/communicator). I would like to suggest for everyone who has a role that they write up their role definition keeping in mind what is expected in "real" XP and how does that role fit with open source development. Once you have your role definition maybe you would like to post a comment/question in the XP mail list and see what others in the community think. The message could start something like "We are incorporating as much from XP as possible in our open source project. We have defined some roles. In this thread we would like to discuss the X role which we have defined thus : ____________" -H ===== ====================== Were I a nightingale, I would act the part of a nightingale; were I a swan, the part of a swan. -Epictetus (A.D. c. 50?c. 138) : Discourses. Chap. xvi. ====================== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 |
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From: Arnaldo C. <ar...@mi...> - 2001-10-05 04:23:04
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[19:01] abe is now Available () [19:01] kalafutj is now Available () [19:01] ChrisHeistad is now Available () [19:01] arnaldo is now Available () * abe has changed the subject to: Let's start with Roles <abe> good evening guys! <kalafutj> Hi everyone... be back in sec! <ChrisHeistad> Hi <arnaldo> Hey, fellas. <abe> Hi Chris, did you get a chance to read last chat log? I think we covered some of your concerns... <arnaldo> What about your play, Chris? <abe> Hi Arnaldo. <kalafutj> We'll give everyone couple minutes to get here, and I'm gonna get a beer :) <ChrisHeistad> My wide got confused, it is next week. <arnaldo> Hello, abe! <arnaldo> What's the play? <ChrisHeistad> oops that's wife not wide :-) <arnaldo> I won't tell her about that typo. :) <ChrisHeistad> Some play a guy wrote about Einstein meeting Freud. <arnaldo> hm. <ChrisHeistad> We gave some money so they gave use season tickets. <arnaldo> nice! <ChrisHeistad> I hope the plays are good <arnaldo> I love watching plays & musicals. <ChrisHeistad> What type do you like? <arnaldo> Before I embraced my nerdiness, I wanted to be an actor. <ChrisHeistad> Wow, thats unusual <arnaldo> Pretty much anything that isn't based on shock value. <arnaldo> I was president of the Theatre Club in High School...long story of the transition. <ChrisHeistad> I see, my wife is a big fan of Broadway, she goes to NY a couple times a year just to see those. <kalafutj> Are you guys all officially in the IMCS program? <arnaldo> A kindred spirit. <arnaldo> Yes, I'm officially in the IMCS program. <ChrisHeistad> Yes, although I started off on campus, 3rd remote class. <arnaldo> This is my sixth off-campus course in the program. <kalafutj> I'm on my third class, and hopefully I get admitted... I just found out last Friday that the people who were going to send in references didn't! <arnaldo> yuck. <abe> Yes, I am. 1st remote. <kalafutj> And my file is being reviewed this week...ugh... <arnaldo> If anyone wants pointers on what courses to take, what profs are like for remote students, let me know. <arnaldo> Sorry, Jim. That's tough. <abe> What do you guys think of the work load? It seems to heavy for working professionals, in a downsized organization. <ChrisHeistad> I think there is a good reason its a top five school :-) <arnaldo> Indeed. <arnaldo> In this course, all the work has some value, at least. <arnaldo> I can't say that's been the case in every course I've taken <ChrisHeistad> But yes it is difficult. <kalafutj> I thought my OS course was a bit weak, but the homework kicked my butt and got me up to speed on Java... <abe> I agree <arnaldo> And, Prof Johnson is pretty terrific. <ChrisHeistad> Was that Campbell? <kalafutj> Yes to Campbell...didn't care for him. <ChrisHeistad> He's pretty rough, I used to work with him at NCSA, did some work on Vosaic. <abe> How would you compare other courses with this, i terms of work load? <arnaldo> Frankly, the work load in this course seems to me lighter than others in the program. <ChrisHeistad> I would say pretty typical, but Ralph grades pretty easy. <kalafutj> This project could be a snake in the grass though... <arnaldo> Not if we approach it correctly, I say. <abe> Project will demand a lot of time [19:12] rdram is now Available () <arnaldo> We're primarily being graded on how closely we stick to the process, and on our own levels of individual contributions. <kalafutj> Ralph OO course had a ton of homework, but at least with that you can chalk something up and done each week. <arnaldo> Here is the one lesson I've learned on how to do well in this degree program: <kalafutj> Hi radu <rdram> Hi guys. <arnaldo> I have taped to my monitor the grade breakdown for each semester. <ChrisHeistad> What do you mean grade breakdown? The weights? <arnaldo> No matter how important something seems, or how much the prof stresses it, prioritize based on its weightage in the final grade. <arnaldo> Yes. <arnaldo> That's my philosophy, anyway. Otherwise I just get swamped and don't manage to learn anything. <kalafutj> I better get studying for the final...bye guys! <arnaldo> hahaha <rdram> Are you guys taking more than this course? <kalafutj> Talk about roles now? <arnaldo> Yeah, I'm in 497. Let's talk about roles. <arnaldo> So, only Deborah and Bola are missing, right? <rdram> My preference: developer. <rdram> And Hugo. <ChrisHeistad> I thought you'd be manager? <arnaldo> And Ward. <rdram> I mean people missing from conference. <abe> Ward will not be part of the project according to Hugo. <arnaldo> Oh. I must have missed that email. <kalafutj> Ditto <abe> Yesterday's chat, in the very end.... [19:18] arnaldo wants to chat (chat) [19:18] arnaldo wants to chat (chat) [19:18] arnaldo is now Available () <arnaldo> Whoops. <arnaldo> ok. <arnaldo> Too bad; wouldn't have minded his experience. <arnaldo> So, what roles are there, besides developer and manager? <ChrisHeistad> What happened? <abe> Hugo promised the log of his Chat with Ward and why he declined. Should be coming soon. <arnaldo> ok. <kalafutj> Arnaldo and I have talked about taking care of the administrative/scheduling/secretarial/etc. work....any objections? <ChrisHeistad> Sounds good to me. <rdram> Works for me. [19:20] elhugo is now Available () <abe> Let's get organized and discuss on Roles. I will reset the subject and we can become focused. Roles are posted here: http://xmlwiki.sourceforge.net/people.html. But needs some extensions in my pint of view. * abe has changed the subject to: Roles <arnaldo> Jim, I wanted to make sure that our two-person managerial-administrative arrangement would be OK with Andrew. <elhugo> Hello <kalafutj> Sure... we can more precisely divide it if he'd like. <kalafutj> Hi Hugo. <ChrisHeistad> Hi Hugo <abe> We need manager, tracker, configuration controller, <elhugo> What is a manager? <arnaldo> What's a tracker? <kalafutj> As SourceForge admin, I would pick up the configuration controller role (willingly) <abe> and Coach, who should be Hugo, IMO. <elhugo> A tracker is someone who takes cares of the metrics of the project. <arnaldo> OK. I think that would fall under the managerial/administrative roles Jim and I envision absorbing. <arnaldo> Any objections to taking that one, Jim? <abe> We will have a project plan. Tasks (finisshed, unfinished) and iteration planning. Tracker does that. <kalafutj> No problem...but what's a manager??? <elhugo> Is the Manager in XP the same role of mangager that you envision? <arnaldo> Professor Johnson covered that on the third day of class. <arnaldo> Just kidding. :) <arnaldo> This is how I see a manager: <arnaldo> For XP, anyway. <kalafutj> I'm thinking businessy, money, hiring/firing, keep people and stakeholders happy, etc. <arnaldo> In pair programming, there's one person hammering out code, and one person thinking of broader issues, etc. <elhugo> Manager is not directly involved ion PP <arnaldo> No, but I see it as an analogy for the whole project... <abe> Manager, the unnecessary evil ( as a hacker, we should mistrut authority -- promote decentralization) see http://www.bartleby.com/66/84/35884.html <elhugo> Yet again he may be. It depends on the hierachy <arnaldo> At the higher level, I see the "manager" in XP as being a bit more concerned about the broader issues, and the programmer is looking at the lines of code...same sort of thing. <elhugo> So manager is more related to business? What is our business here? <abe> XP Explained, chapter 22 Roles for People: only talks about the Programmer, Customer, Tester, Tracker, Coach, Consultant, Big Boss. <arnaldo> Well, there's a sense in which the goal loaner is you, Hugo, and the "gold holder" is the course staff, who will be assigning us a grade. <elhugo> You should really read XP Installed and Planning XP too.... <elhugo> So the manager is Andrew? <kalafutj> Might be...never though of that, but it seems reasonable. <abe> I have not stopped by the bookstore, yet. I will do it over the weekend... <arnaldo> No. Andrew is the gold holder. <kalafutj> But personnel issues would go through him too... <arnaldo> yes. He's wearing multiple hats. <arnaldo> OK. I'll be totally honest about what I *really* see as the role of a manager, though this probably isn't the right answer "by the book": <elhugo> OK, in the "real" world, would the manager be handling the CVS tree? <kalafutj> I don't think so. <elhugo> So I guess we need a new name for the role that you envision? <abe> Source controller <arnaldo> I see the ideal manager as the "group servant" - gets the group what it needs from the gold holder or wherever else to get the job done. <elhugo> I agree with arnaldo. <arnaldo> Prof Johson gave the example of buying the group pizza when they have to work late; we won't have to do that, but I'd bet that there will be a lot of things that we can do. <kalafutj> I can see that...do you think it applies to this project though? <kalafutj> Since we all want to contribute technically, I mean. <ChrisHeistad> Only if we need some server or resource, which is unlikely <arnaldo> Absolutely. This course is a technical one, but not in the sense of learning a new technology... <elhugo> He might be considered the business person with a title like "Project Manager" and most of the times he is not technical. <abe> manager, will also handle coordination of efforts, facilite communication, report risks to customer (we are behind schedule, and things of this nature) <elhugo> Also I have heard "Product Manager" <arnaldo> in the sense of learning a new process. Another managerial role I see is that we would be focused on staying on track with the process. <arnaldo> Bingo, abe. That's what I see, too. <kalafutj> OK...so tracker and manager seem to be overlapping for our group (which is fine). <abe> we have both one has the vision of the product line for R&D, marketing manager and the Project Manager (=tracker + some) <elhugo> Now let us put this in the context of Open Source. Who is the manager? <arnaldo> I'm not sure what you mean. <elhugo> I agree with abe. <elhugo> Is there a difference between a project in a Fortune 500 and an Open Source project? <abe> In an XP OpenSource project, there is a very special role: The Dictator. And only Generalissimo ElHugo can play this role. :-) <arnaldo> By the way, before I forget: I'm leaving at 3:30 AM tomorrow to go out of town. I'll be back Monday noonish, in time for our meeting then. <elhugo> But the Colonel doesn't have someone to write to him <elhugo> Again... we have to see how we fit XP with Open Source. Our goal is to be as XPish as possible. <abe> So given the Dictator, the manager has very little power, the manager plays almost a facilitator role, I would think. <arnaldo> Yes. And, how to fit XP with a distributed, rather than a co-located, group. <arnaldo> ha. <elhugo> he <elhugo> Jim what are your thought? <kalafutj> I'm fine with distributed XP EXCEPT for PP. That seems like it would be problematic. <elhugo> One goes as one goes and then one shall see. <elhugo> What about the manager here. <kalafutj> Arnaldo/Manager, Jim/Tracker ? <ChrisHeistad> All in favor say Aye. Aye! <kalafutj> aye <abe> aye <elhugo> Nay <kalafutj> Revisit the def of manager? <elhugo> yes <kalafutj> I see a facilitator role, as was previously mentioned. <arnaldo> indeed. Would you feel better if we called the role "facilitator"? <elhugo> Someone who builds tools and keeps them working... <abe> On PP, Net meeting, plus voice is almost the same as being in the same room. I do not see why it would be so problematic. I am remote in a project and we get the work done just like we would sharing the same office. <elhugo> PP later <arnaldo> Sorry, "PP" stands for... <elhugo> Pair Programming ;) <arnaldo> oh. My face is red. <rdram> Mine too. <abe> Someone who builds tools and keeps them working... one of the programmers would do this... <kalafutj> Because Andrew is NOT an active part of this team, I don't think he should have a role. Yet we need one point of contact to the course staff, so that would most closely match a "Manager". <elhugo> Also I envison the manager and someone who organizes the meetings, keep tabs on things that we are in schedule, buy us pizza when we finally meet. <arnaldo> That's how I see the manager as well. <arnaldo> Plus I get paid more. <arnaldo> :) <kalafutj> But you buy pizza <ChrisHeistad> Twice of nothing is still nothing :-) <arnaldo> And I have pointy hair and make irrelevant comments like in "Dilbert". <ChrisHeistad> OK you're there <ChrisHeistad> :-) <kalafutj> From know on, you shall be known as: PHA <elhugo> I vote for Jim to be the manager because of what he has done and because he has shown great interest in SourceForge and such.' <abe> so Arnaldo, as a good manager can you summarize the role of the manager, based on the previous postings, for a final decision? <abe> I withdraw my previous comment <ChrisHeistad> I would make some sense since jim wants to continue on next semester... <kalafutj> If Jim gets admitted.... <arnaldo> Of course, I'll be here next semester as well. <elhugo> So arnaldo, do you want to be tracker or some other role? <kalafutj> I view the SourceForge and linux stuff on my end as just another technical task, not the same and the course liason role. <kalafutj> and=as <arnaldo> Right now, I'm reviewing the definition of "tracker" and "manager" that we've listed above to make some sense of this. <elhugo> Well I am not qualified to be the course liason. <arnaldo> Well, I agree with the comment Jim just made. <elhugo> So Arnaldo is our liasion with the course and Jim is our tech. <elhugo> ? <ChrisHeistad> Does that translate to Arnaldo=manager Jim=tracker ? <kalafutj> My concern is that a full blown manager/tracker role would not leave any time for that person to develop, which we all probably want to do. Hence the split between Arnaldo and I. <elhugo> Tracker is a person who does the metrics by definition. Do you want to do this Jim? How about abe and rdam? <abe> Not really, the tech guy is more like an Archtiect than a tracker. A tracker is not a very big role, since XP is not beaurocratic (sp?) <arnaldo> I have an idea: let's throw away the term manager. <elhugo> I agree with abe. <arnaldo> the term "manager". <arnaldo> I think that would clear things up a bit. <elhugo> OK,. so manager is off on vacation... now what <elhugo> ? <arnaldo> The word "manager" has some unnecessary baggage implying authority and control that just aren't going to be true in this project. <kalafutj> Tracker may not be big, but his/her artifacts are important for the course grade. They'll show progress and adhearance to XP, which is what the staff will want to see. <arnaldo> What if we called it facilitator/course staff communicator. <abe> manager = power , interest lots of negative connotation. I second Arnaldo and Hugo, let's send the manager away on vacation. <arnaldo> All for firing the manager, say "aye"! <ChrisHeistad> Aye <elhugo> Aye <rdram> Aye! <kalafutj> Aye <arnaldo> aye! <ChrisHeistad> You are the weakest link! <abe> aye! <kalafutj> Bye Bye! <arnaldo> Who's the weakest link? <elhugo> C ya! <ChrisHeistad> Manager is the weakest link <abe> the facilitator/communicator would be responsible for reporting the tracker artifacts in a nice format (the documenter?) <kalafutj> Yes...those two will work together to make sure materials are turned in. <ChrisHeistad> Whats the next role to decide? <arnaldo> And for getting meeting agendas to people in advance, etc. <arnaldo> Do we need a "tester"? <elhugo> So Jim will be our Facilitator/Tracker? <kalafutj> Man we need a table... I was under the impression that A. would be Facilitor, and I'd be Tracker.... <elhugo> Or is it Arnaldo? (Not being fastidious just want to get it down right) <abe> that is what I thought! <arnaldo> Yes, I'm facilitator/communicator; Jim is tracker. <elhugo> Ok we all agree then. Thanks. <arnaldo> But we'll work closely together, as I see it. <kalafutj> I agree. <ChrisHeistad> All in favor say Aye <kalafutj> aye <elhugo> Aye <rdram> Aye. <abe> aye <ChrisHeistad> aye <arnaldo> agye <arnaldo> aye <ChrisHeistad> ok what role next? <arnaldo> sorry; that was the manager talking. <arnaldo> :) <kalafutj> Great. Testing: Hugo does acceptance testing, and we all do our regular unit testing? <kalafutj> Ergo: to separate 'tester' role? <kalafutj> to=no <ChrisHeistad> Does that violate xp? <kalafutj> I think that is straight from what I read this evening. <arnaldo> I don't think so; I think in some contexts there are separate testers, in some there aren't. <ChrisHeistad> All in favor say Aye <elhugo> I agree on that but if you read the XP message board then maybe someone will be interested in the role. Maybe we can leave this one until we have a release plan? <rdram> Isn't the programmer also a unit tester? <kalafutj> Yes <arnaldo> I'm for leaving it until we have a release plan. <ChrisHeistad> Hugo, would that person write a test plan or something? <kalafutj> Hugo: are you referring to an outside person as another tester? <elhugo> A unit tester is not the same as someone responsible with the Acceptance Test AND the black box testing that is not unit testing. <kalafutj> You, as the customer, should be the Acceptance Tester, right? <abe> I agree with Hugo <abe> The customer, or someone representing the customer... <elhugo> Acceptance tests our my garantee but in the real world... wouldn't it be nice if there was a tester that could help me out? <abe> Are you looking for a volunteer? <elhugo> Not strictly QA but something related too... don't have the word right now to explain it right :( <ChrisHeistad> quality champion? <abe> Been there, done that, would love to do it again... <kalafutj> Shall we leave this one open for right now? <elhugo> I like that term quality champion... sounds better than Tester. <arnaldo> Indeed, I agree. <arnaldo> But, perhaps tester is actually more descriptive. <ChrisHeistad> Abe wants to be quality champion? <abe> Yeap. <ChrisHeistad> All in favor? <arnaldo> Aye. <rdram> Aye. <kalafutj> Aye <ChrisHeistad> Aye <elhugo> Aye <ChrisHeistad> Next role? <arnaldo> I have a question about that last one. <arnaldo> Not that I want a revote, just a clarification. <arnaldo> What will the role of quality champion be at first? <arnaldo> Will you start as a developer and then switch? <elhugo> Maybe we could rotate this role? <arnaldo> Oh no. I'm not suggesting that. <arnaldo> I was just curious how it would look at first. <rdram> Wouldn't this role be active all the time? <arnaldo> That's my question. <arnaldo> Is the answer 'yes'? <abe> It is throughout the process: is the project plan viable (reality check), are documents /reports complete and consistent, so on an so forth <arnaldo> Excellent. I misunderstood. Now I'm up to speed. <abe> the role can rotate, an should. Also should happen all the time. <elhugo> Is the only role left Programmer? <elhugo> I think rotation is a good idea. <abe> coach? <rdram> Wouldn't be too slow for each member to take this role? <kalafutj> So far, is this correct: http://xmlwiki.sourceforge.net/people.html <arnaldo> No, Jim! The manager is dead! :) <elhugo> Keep you thinking and actually there is a thread about in during this week in the XP mail list. <kalafutj> So what do we call it now????? <elhugo> Coach != manager. <rdram> Dindn't we throw away the Manager and decided for Arnaldo as Facilitator/Communicator? <arnaldo> Facilitator/Communicator <abe> on tester: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/message/35211?threaded=1 <kalafutj> OK. refresh. <arnaldo> nice. <ChrisHeistad> Isn't everyone a programmer? <arnaldo> Jim, just for fun, will you add: <arnaldo> Manager - Fired. <kalafutj> Except for Hugo. <elhugo> I only wished... <elhugo> All that beautiful code to write... <elhugo> hum. <kalafutj> OK <kalafutj> Just a few more and we'll have renamed every role in XP! <elhugo> I really can't until the course is over and actually maybe it is better that I stay as coach. <abe> coach = Hugo, who we can go for help and he can get some joy from guiding some of the coding activity... <arnaldo> Gentlemen, I have to go. There's some loose ends I have to tie up before I leave on my trip to Philadelphia tomorrow. <arnaldo> like, packing... <elhugo> bon voyage <arnaldo> Thanks. <abe> have a safe trip... <kalafutj> Have a safe trip. <rdram> Take care. <arnaldo> Guys, this has been really productive; I'm going to look forward to working with you all. <ChrisHeistad> I sure hope we don't fire the facilitator while on vacation :-) <arnaldo> 'bye! <ChrisHeistad> bye! <rdram> Bye! <elhugo> bye [20:22] arnaldo is now Away (Away) |
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From: Arnaldo C. <ar...@mi...> - 2001-10-05 04:22:08
|
Folks,
Before I leave on a 4-day trip (be back mid-Monday), I wanted to =
send out the results of tonight's meeting (before I checked out of the =
meeting anyway.
It was very productive (and I'm attaching the transcript in a text =
file). All but two of our group were in attendance, and meeting results =
are tentative pending the buy-in from those two group members.
Item 1: We fired the manager.
We discussed the traditional role of manager, and what it meant, =
and decided that the term "manager" would not accurately describe the =
role of any one individual on our team. So, we divided up his/her =
duties among the group members and gave him/her the pink slip. For more =
details, see the attached transcript.
Item 2: Tentative roles (roles with new names described below)
"Quality champion" - Abe. Abe will, throughout the process, =
check for quality. I.e. (Is the project plan viable (reality check); =
are documents /reports complete and consistent)
"Tracker" - Jim. Jim will do the metrics "by definition".
"Facilitator/Communicator" - Arnaldo will be the POC for the =
course staff and will be responsible for presenting the tracker =
artifacts "in a nice format". Jim and Arnaldo's role will most likely =
bleed into each other a bit, so they'll be working rather closely =
together.
*Note* - distilling a concise definition for every role is on my "to do" =
list. (and is a good example of the type of thing I intend to do as =
facilitator/communicator).
"Coach" - Hugo.
"Customer" - Hugo.
"Programmer" - Arnaldo, Deborah, Radu, Jim, Abe, Bola, Chris.
One of the first items on Monday's meeting will be to move these =
tentative roles to "actual" status, or to change them if necessary.
Item 3: Our next meeting is Monday at 8PM CST. Send me agenda =
items that you think we need to cover, and if I get back in time, I'll =
put them together and send out a meeting agenda before our Monday =
meeting.
--Arnaldo
|
|
From: CS327 TA <cs3...@cs...> - 2001-10-04 17:13:40
|
> I read this but it didn't register until I was doing some independent > reading to get a bit more familiar with CRC cards. So, allow me a > delayed-kneejerk reaction. > WHOAH! You mean THE Ward Cunningham? As in, "I invented the whole > concept of CRC cards" Ward Cunningham?. I would also point out who your professor is. Still, "famous" people like these are fun-loving and interested in small projects, that's part of the whole Smalltalk/Patterns/XP/Wiki community ethic/spirit that this all developed from. For further evidence (and amusement), see http://c2.com/~ward/chili/ - Andrew. |
|
From: Arnaldo a. S. C. <ar...@mi...> - 2001-10-04 16:37:50
|
Hugo,
I read this but it didn't register until I was doing some independent
reading to get a bit more familiar with CRC cards. So, allow me a
delayed-kneejerk reaction.
WHOAH! You mean THE Ward Cunningham? As in, "I invented the whole
concept of CRC cards" Ward Cunningham?.
Well, I guess, if he really wants to be a part of our cool project, I'll
let him out of charity. ;)
--Arnaldo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hugo Garcia" <xm...@ya...>
To: <xml...@li...>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 8:06 PM
Subject: [xmlWiki-developers] New Customer
> Hi all.
>
> I got maybe some good news for you. I contacted Ward Cunningham and he
said
> that he would be willing to be our Customer. I would like to first pass
this
> through the group first. If you all agreee for him to be our Customer then
it
> is a matter of trying to schedule him with us. He may or may not be
available
> all the time online but what do you guys think?
>
> -H
>
>
> =====
> ======================
>
> Were I a nightingale, I would act the part of a nightingale; were I a
swan, the part of a swan.
>
> -Epictetus (A.D. c. 50?c. 138) : Discourses. Chap. xvi.
>
> ======================
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
> http://phone.yahoo.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmlWiki-developers mailing list
> xml...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlwiki-developers
|
|
From: HEISTAD,CHRIS (A-USA,ex2) <chr...@ag...> - 2001-10-04 14:18:17
|
We can also post here, preferred roles. I for instance would like to just be a developer. But am willing to do anything extra other than manager :-) if need be. I'll try to get to the meeting tonight, but will most likely be late if I can indeed get there. I'm willing to live with any decisions made though just to get this rolling. -Chris -> -----Original Message----- -> From: Arnaldo and Sandy Cavazos [mailto:ar...@mi...] -> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 9:17 AM -> To: xml...@li... -> Subject: [xmlWiki-developers] Re: Jabber chat server is up -> and running -> -> -> All, -> Here's what I think. -> a) it's tough to make some of the initial important -> decisions unless -> everyone is meeting together - how can we, for example, -> choose a person's -> role if that person is not there to buy in on the decision? -> b) the only time when everyone is free for a meeting of -> substantial -> length is Monday night. -> c) due to technical difficulties, we're behind schedule on some -> important initial decisions like picking roles, and picking -> at least a -> couple of other quick (~15 minute) meetings we can have each week. -> My suggestion: those of us that can get together -> tonight on Jabber at -> 8PM CST do so, and make a set of *tentative* decisions. -> Once we make those -> decisions, we can 1) send the tentative decisions to those -> who aren't able -> to make it tonight. That way, we can make the appropriate -> modifications and -> finalize things rather quickly on Monday, and move on to the -> system metaphor -> and other topics. Also, we can explain the situation to the -> course staff -> and send them our tentative roles, so that they have -> something rather than -> nothing before next week. -> BTW, my Jabber account is arnaldo@24.178.71.65 . -> Cheerfully, -> Arnaldo -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: "Radu Dram" <rd...@ly...> -> To: "Arnaldo and Sandy Cavazos" <ar...@mi...> -> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 10:52 PM -> Subject: Re: Jabber chat server is up and running -> -> -> > Arnaldo, -> > -> > When starting WinJab, you can create an acccount which can be: -> > arnaldo@24.178.71.65. -> > This is your user id. -> > -> > Try this and let me know if you still have problems. -> > -> > Radu -> > --- -> > -> > -> -> -> -> _______________________________________________ -> xmlWiki-developers mailing list -> xml...@li... -> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlwiki-developers -> |
|
From: Arnaldo a. S. C. <ar...@mi...> - 2001-10-04 14:13:37
|
All,
Here's what I think.
a) it's tough to make some of the initial important decisions unless
everyone is meeting together - how can we, for example, choose a person's
role if that person is not there to buy in on the decision?
b) the only time when everyone is free for a meeting of substantial
length is Monday night.
c) due to technical difficulties, we're behind schedule on some
important initial decisions like picking roles, and picking at least a
couple of other quick (~15 minute) meetings we can have each week.
My suggestion: those of us that can get together tonight on Jabber at
8PM CST do so, and make a set of *tentative* decisions. Once we make those
decisions, we can 1) send the tentative decisions to those who aren't able
to make it tonight. That way, we can make the appropriate modifications and
finalize things rather quickly on Monday, and move on to the system metaphor
and other topics. Also, we can explain the situation to the course staff
and send them our tentative roles, so that they have something rather than
nothing before next week.
BTW, my Jabber account is arnaldo@24.178.71.65 .
Cheerfully,
Arnaldo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Radu Dram" <rd...@ly...>
To: "Arnaldo and Sandy Cavazos" <ar...@mi...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: Jabber chat server is up and running
> Arnaldo,
>
> When starting WinJab, you can create an acccount which can be:
> arnaldo@24.178.71.65.
> This is your user id.
>
> Try this and let me know if you still have problems.
>
> Radu
> ---
>
>
|
|
From: Jim K. <ka...@ie...> - 2001-10-04 03:40:40
|
Sorry I wasn't around for the chat. I didn't know we had one scheduled until too late. I'll try to attend tomorow. I did, however, have my chat window open the entire time so I was able to read the whole thing. Rather than continue to forward the logs, I think they should be archived on the SourceForge site. I created a Chat Log documentation category and have placed tonight's transcript there. There is also a Stories category for those documents. If you want to submit something, and admin has to approve it (which is a somewhat annoying formality, but oh well). We can only store text files there, so more refined .doc/.vsd/.ppt or whatever files will have to go in the repository. About the Jabber server... Radu had problems last night, but the evening <seemed> to go fine for the three members involved tonight. I encourge the rest of the team to get familiar with it so we can quickly decide if it will work for our chat needs. Please use WinJab if possible so we all have a common set of nuances/work-arounds :). Also, chat in the group called 'xmlWiki' (exact spelling). I'll leave that window open on my side all the time so I'm guaranteed to catch all of the discussion for archiving. It makes it easier for others to gather and chat as well, since the browser function doesn't seem to show ongoing chat sessions. See you at 8PM CST. Regards, Jim Kalafut |
|
From: Radu D. <rd...@ly...> - 2001-10-04 02:56:02
|
Hi, team. Tonight we had our first meeting. I(Radu),Abe and Hugo participated in the meeting. We discussed various topics , but the main one was "The System Metaphor". Below I include the conference content. As you will see, we decided for another meeting on Thursday evening 8PM CST. See you all tomorrow. Radu ==================================================================== [19:44] elhugo is now Available () [19:44] kalafutj is now Available () [19:44] rdram is now Available () <rdram> Hi,guys. <elhugo> Hi <elhugo> jim is still not here. I wonder aboout every body else... [19:51] abe is now Available () <abe> Hi everyone. Radu, please ignore my chat invitation <abe> Radu, did you get many replies to your email? my mailbox has been very quiet, recently... <rdram> Hi, Hugo & Abe. <rdram> You mean messages in xmlWiki-developers list? Yes, I got many of them. <abe> so people should be joining shortly... <elhugo> Are you guys getting a copy of the message that you send to the list? I think I can fix that in the admin tools so that you only get the posts from others but not your own. <abe> I still need to figure out how to use it. Any hints? <rdram> Yes, I got the message. <elhugo> What do you mean? <elhugo> abe? <abe> how do I get access to the list (xmlWiki-developers)? <elhugo> I am going out for a smoke... be back in ten (time 8:57 now) <abe> Radu, have you put anymore thougths into the project? <rdram> Abe, you can reply to all or to xml...@li.... <elhugo> just send an email to xml...@li... and you talk to everyone <rdram> Not really. NOt because I don't want to, but just because I would like to have the first meeting with Hugo as starting point. <abe> on your previous comment, the uiuc webmail does not seem to recognize the 'xml...@li...' address, that why I am confused <rdram> I am using my mailcity(lycos) account and I don't have problems. I don't know about uiuc account. I have problems connecting to students.uiuc.edu using DSL and I prefer to use mailcity. <abe> the webmail seems to be in its early stages... <rdram> How do you connect to uiuc? <abe> https://webmail.uiuc.edu <rdram> I haven't tried it yet, but I will. Isn't it easier for you to have a yahoo or lycos account? You get use it anywhere with no restriction. Just an opinion. <abe> I started looking into other implementations of wikis, people are using scripting on the server side (cgi, php, asp...) not Java, I wonder how this will work? <elhugo> I am back <abe> I have an yahoo account, a work account and uiuc account, which I was planning to use only for I2CS activites, thanks for the suggestion. <abe> Hugo, I was trying to get some technical talk going check the question before you said 'I am back' <elhugo> On the emai... if any of you switch accounts then make sure you change it over at the xmlwiki-developers list. Just go to the project page on sourceforge and click on list. <abe> will try to remember :-) <elhugo> There are some implementation in Java. Hold on one min and I will get the url that lists all known implementations... <rdram> Hugo, you seem to be in the Linux world. Do you see any real advantage of Java technologies over Microsoft web stuff? <abe> there are tons of projects in sourceForge, search for keyword 'wiki' <abe> radu, java runs anywhere unlike MS... (but you have to test everywhere!) <rdram> Agree. <elhugo> Ok... this is the master list of ALL known wikis --- http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiEngines <elhugo> Microsoft is the evil empire, need I say more ;) <abe> thanks for the link, this will be very helpful... <elhugo> Seriously, the web was built using Un*x and then Linux. That other company focus has always been the personal user and not the server or net per se. It is only now that they have infiltrated the web with their .NET stuff. <abe> Hugo, I started to read more articles from the OpenSource book, it is getting really interesting and difficult to stop reading... I can see your point on the evil empire ;) <elhugo> From the programming point of view, it is so much easier to program in Linux or Un*x becuase the tools are better and the OS is geared toward it. I cannot live without a command line and a true shell. <rdram> Hugo, this is a question that came up yesterday: are we gonna deploy the Wiki on a specific web container(Tomcat, for example)? <rdram> Hope this question makes sense. <abe> IMO, the ease of development is proportional to how used on is to an environment... <elhugo> rdram - if we stick to Java then it really doesn't matter which server we use. Weblogic, Tomcat, Websphere all adhere to the J2EE specs and if you can deploy in one then you can deploy in all. I would recommend Tomcat because it is free, easy to set up and it is the reference implementation for J2EE. * abe has changed the subject to: testing the subject line * elhugo has changed the subject to: refactoring the subject line <abe> i jus tfpound that the subject line is useless <abe> oops,found <elhugo> hmmmm.... maybe <rdram> Good point. Hugo, since I live most of my time in the Windows world,it seems Unix tools are not that easy to use. What do you mean by better tools? * elhugo has changed the subject to: Linux <abe> in the end one either sticks to J2EE or .NET (COM or ActiveX,. whatever MS marketing decides to call their implementation) <elhugo> Setting up a development environment is easier. The dir structure is standard, the commands are standard (just try to grep in MS). Dealing with the other aspect of code is also easier. CVS, secure shell, etc. Almost all of the good IDE's are implemented for Linux and all servers are too. <rdram> I am interested inthe source control aspect. Do you think CVS is easier to use than SourceSafe? <elhugo> I can have for virtual screen each with 1200x1600 res and in effect have four diffent environments with one monitor. Gnome or Kde are better than Windows. As a matter of fact Windows is a simplified version of KDE. * elhugo has changed the subject to: System Metaphor <elhugo> Are you guys clear on what is a System Metaphor? <abe> on IDE's do you have a particular implementation in mind for our development work? what about documentation? plain ascii text files? <rdram> That's a starting point! <elhugo> What kind of starting point? * elhugo has changed the subject to: CVS <rdram> For our discussion. SM is the main topic, right? SM is a overall idea on the project. <abe> another way to call a simple system architecture doument ..., I hate the fact that this industry creates more jargon than one can keep up <elhugo> We are pretty much stuck to CVS since it is what is supported in SourceForge. * elhugo has changed the subject to: System Metaphor <abe> oops document <abe> be back soon <elhugo> Well this "simple architecture document" does not have any mention about technology. This is a very important point. <rdram> Could you please explain more? <abe> I agree the solution of the problem is generic. It is just like a server provides such service. All I care is that the service will exist in some form CORBA, COM, HTTP whatever... <abe> Or simply put it is just a bunch of UML diagrams. <abe> But for starters, a concrete representation of the system is very helpful. Since it is so difficult to abstract all the concepts whithout having done it at least once. <elhugo> A System Metaphor is as you correctly stated a starting point. We start describing the system in a very high level. It is usually the task of the Customer to write it down with the help of the Developers. It is never longer than a couple of paragraphs and if it is runs to more than a page then it is TOO long. The idea is the everybody is in the same mental frame. The Customer has a good idea of what is expected of the system and the developers have the words necesary to start thinking about the object that they will create and code. The System Metaphor is also used by some to specify the bounds of the funcionality of th system. AND this is the important part to stress ---> FUNCTIONALITY. <elhugo> No no UML yet that comes later in the CRC session when the implementaion plan is done. <elhugo> We work from the general to the specific. Not the other way around. We become reductionist but only gradually. The last reduction being a class or method <abe> Agree. the idea was to show tath the solution is independent of the technology. <elhugo> Abe - correct <elhugo> BUT.... in Open Source we run into a little Catch-22 since most project work in a defined set of programatic constructs. For example, here we have stated that we are using Java and etc... In a non Open Source project the technology does not come first. <abe> System Metaphor is a Functional Specification document, not the architecute document. The Functional Spec is visible to the customer. Architecture document for the development team. However, if the customer is a knowledgable customer then he will care for the Architecture. <abe> On Open Source, if we feel that we can solve the problem in a better way, would we not drop the initially proposed technology for a better and improved one? <abe> radu, are you still awake and alive? <elhugo> Yes and no. The equivalent of the Functional Spec would be the System Metaphor + User Stories + Acceptance Test. Outside of XP the Func Spec is limited in scope in that it become a document for the Customer while in XP we the +++ that I mentioned throught the project and actually change them (refactor continously) <abe> bingo! <elhugo> I have seen (and written) too many Func Spec that got collected in the circular file holder. <rdram> Abe, I am with you. Just listening. For now. <elhugo> Were in the learning of the process are you guys right now in the course? <abe> lwearning by fire... <abe> XP really takes a different view of the problem and tries to break the disconnect of the traditional methodologies. And that is why it is so beautiful. I am also reading XP explained, by Beck <rdram> Hugo - we just had "Requirements" and "Use cases" sessions and started the analysis. <elhugo> On Open Source, if we feel that we can solve the problem in a better way, would we not drop the initially proposed technology for a better and improved one? Yes... if the collective agrees but usually there is a project dictator, for example Linus with Linux, who maintain control of the direction of technology and implementation. <rdram> Hugo, how do we deal with the technology risks? In XP, there is no official approach for risks or I could say there is a reactive approach. <abe> On Open Source, I agree with you. But in Open Source, the dictator also thanks the contributors many times... <elhugo> I strongly recommend that we all read XP Installed. It a very practical guide while Kent's book is more philosophical. Also Planning XP has the details about how to go about making a good plan. This is one thing we will be doing continuosly... PLAN, PLAN, PLAN and then AIM, FIRE! <elhugo> thank you, thank you, than you, .... <abe> Radu, not reactive, but in iterations. One does not know the roadblocks until one tries the solutions. Spikes are exactly for minimizing risks. <abe> thank you, thank you, than you, ....; what do you mean? <abe> I got it! <elhugo> Risk - We deal with risk continously by dealing with time and as abe mention spikes are the technology side of it. In buisiness we ameliorate the fears by continously communicating where we are, where we were and where we expect to go. <rdram> Do spikes work later in the project? <elhugo> There is no clear cut way off dealing with using a COT that gets deprecated... exept that you refactor the solution you are working on. <abe> The risks are more in the business side than in the technology side. Personal interests, downsize, all lead to poor communication (information hiding, No bad news are welcome!) <elhugo> During each Iteration you are dealing with "new" stories to implement that may require new technology or approaches and even at the level of the realese you are dong so too. Maybe you are working on a story that you really don't know how to implement... what do you do? <rdram> But isn't the developer who chooses the stories he will implement? <elhugo> Radu - sometimes you may want a story that is "cool" but you have never done it. I have mixed feelings about this aspect but it can happen. <rdram> Sometimes I have this feeling but not for short term solutions. <abe> if you do not know how to implement, you cannot estimate, so you have to (some XP lingo that I do not remember) until you can estimate properly. <elhugo> Well, if you have the time and can complete the story in a reasonable time you include your learning curve in your estimate. <elhugo> This inclusion of the learning curve in your estimate seem to be something that we will be doing a lot in this project, myself included. <elhugo> OK back to System Metaphor... <rdram> Good point, back to SM. <elhugo> Do you want me to get some links about the System Metaphor and put them on the web page or do would you guys like to do some poking around on your own and then email me your result and I will complement them when I put them on the website? <abe> either way works for me <elhugo> radu? <abe> Do not want to spoil the talk. It is 7:15 here in CA, I am really hungry, and we have been going for 1 hour now. Do you want to continue or allow the rest of the team to join the discussion. <elhugo> I was thinking ending this disuction too. Can you guys email me your results by 5:00PM EST tomorow? <rdram> If you already have some links, we can use them as starting point. <rdram> Are we planning for another meeting tomorrow evening? Maybe we get more guys. <elhugo> At 5:00 I modify the webpage and update it with whatever we have before a meeting tomorow hopefully with everybody else. Is this a plan? <abe> Ward C. says the following on SM, (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SystemMetaphor )What ExtremeProgramming (XP) uses instead of a formal architecture. A simple shared story of how the system works. This story typically involves a handful of classes and patterns that shape the core flow of the system being built. <rdram> Hugo, sounds good. Could you also send those links tonight by email? I would like to take a look before 5 pm tomorrow. <abe> Hugo, what is up with Ward? Is he going to join the project as a new customer? <rdram> Guys, overall a good session for me tonight. . <elhugo> About Ward... he will not be actively our customer and his reasons are very good. I will cut and past the conversation with Ward and email it to yall. <abe> I also enjoyed the meeting. But feel that we need to speed up our progress... <elhugo> About the system metaphor def in Ward's wiki.... it needs updating and I will explain later or you may find out yourselft. <elhugo> I think we do have to speed progrss although if you want to measure ourselves against the other groups I think we are doing OK. <rdram> Hugo, do you think Ron Jefferies' book(XP Installed) is more practical than Ken Beck' s Extreme Programming Explained? <elhugo> C U later tomorow and Radu see if you can find some links about System Metaphor so that we can include them in the web page. <elhugo> Hugo, do you think Ron Jefferies' book(XP Installed) is more practical than Ken Beck' s Extreme Programming Explained? Yes... see previous answer. <abe> good night guys... <rdram> Guys, do you think we shlould email the whole conference to the other guys? <rdram> Good night ABe and Bon apetite! <elhugo> Yes I think so. Radu can you do so... by emailing to xmlwiki - developers? <elhugo> Buen provecho Abe <abe> yes. there are some very good points to be shared... <abe> obrigado a todos (thank you all, in portuguese!) Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp |
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From: Hugo G. <xm...@ya...> - 2001-10-04 00:39:48
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Hi all I am online and I can do it on Thursday same time 8PM CST. -H --- Radu Dram <rd...@ly...> wrote: > Hi, team. > > Can we meet again tonight 8PM CST? > > Thanks. > > Radu Dram > --- > > > > > > > On Wed, 3 Oct 2001 04:17:22 > Hugo Garcia wrote: > >Hi people > > > >Wondering when is the next (first?) Jabber meeting? > > > >-H > > > >===== > >====================== > > > >Were I a nightingale, I would act the part of a nightingale; were I a swan, > the part of a swan. > > > >-Epictetus (A.D. c. 50?c. 138) : Discourses. Chap. xvi. > > > >====================== > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. > >http://phone.yahoo.com > > > >_______________________________________________ > >xmlWiki-developers mailing list > >xml...@li... > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlwiki-developers > > > > > Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. > http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp ===== ====================== Were I a nightingale, I would act the part of a nightingale; were I a swan, the part of a swan. -Epictetus (A.D. c. 50?c. 138) : Discourses. Chap. xvi. ====================== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 |
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