Re: [xmlvm-users] xmlvm-users Digest, Vol 4, Issue 7

[blake m. <bla...@gm...>]

I'm thinking $100 donation for each application written using XMLVM.
I'm trying to think about what is reasonable for both parties.  At
that price, it is worth it to ME.  Right now the project is still
buggy, and several features that are necessary to build a usable
application are lacking.  When you get into the $300 donation range,
as a developer, it's better to spend that $300 on a mac mini (which I
know is probably more near the $500 range), learn Cocoa Touch and
Obj-C, and have the whole API available, along with the original
simulator.  No concerns about, will this work on the actual device or
not.  Testing on the device immediately available.

But of course, the key feature of the project is to develop in your
favorite language.  You can't get that anywhere else as far as I can
see (for native applications written in Windows).

But that reminds me, I'm going to need a mac mini(or a good friend)
anyway to compile the Obj-C code that XMLVM generates.  I probably
would not invest more than $200 in contribution to the project.  I
would offer up my coding skills, but I'm not the greatest coder, and
I've not yet gotten how the whole project works under my grasp.

But think of this...I mentioned to a couple of my buddies last night
that I was developing an iPhone application in Java.  They both are
long-time Java developers.  They just looked at me wide-eyed and said
"Whhaaaat?".  You may not have even begun to tap the market, and if
you did, even at $100 or $200 per app, you could make a fortune it
seems.

Just my thoughts.

On 10/7/09, xml...@li...
<xml...@li...> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Licence issues (Arno Puder)
>    2. Re: Licence issues (Panayotis Katsaloulis)
>    3. Re: Licence issues (Gergely Kis)
>    4. Re: Licence issues (Sascha Haeberling)
>    5. Re: Licence issues (Gergely Kis)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 14:51:47 +0200
> From: Arno Puder <ar...@pu...>
> Subject: Re: [xmlvm-users] Licence issues
> To: xml...@li...
> Message-ID: <4AC...@pu...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>
> I personally am absolutely fine to discuss this in public. For
> "contribution" we don't just assume fees but also code contributions. In
> some cases this is difficult: is a 1000 line patch always more worth
> than 100 lines? Certainly not. Does a one line patch to fix a bug
> already qualify to grant the linking exception? I'm inclined to say no.
> But I'd be more than happy to get feedback from you guys on what you
> consider to be a fair contribution in return for granting a linking
> exception. As I said before, we want XMLVM to succeed. So, suggestions
> please!
>
> Arno
>
>
> Panayotis Katsaloulis wrote:
>> On 07 ??? 2009, at 2:10 ??, Arno Puder wrote:
>>
>>> Guys,
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> We understand that
>>> there is no clear definition of "contribution" at this point. But rest
>>> assured that we are interested in XMLVM to succeed. I am sure that if
>>> you want to use XMLVM for a commercial product, we will find some
>>> common
>>> ground. We have already issued several of these linking exceptions to
>>> contributors.
>>>
>>
>> Right, that's the main reason for the discussion.
>> What exactly someone  should give back, if he can't / is not allowed
>> to give back the source code of his application.
>>
>> I understand that usually is per-user basis, since other things will
>> be required from a large company who wants to massively develop
>> applications for both android & iphone, and other for an individual
>> who simply wants to create a  couple of applications.
>>
>> But, please, give us some hints.
>>
>> if someone of the core developers doesn't want to discuss this in
>> public, I am open to private conversations.
>>
>> Thank you
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 16:29:04 +0300
> From: Panayotis Katsaloulis <pan...@pa...>
> Subject: Re: [xmlvm-users] Licence issues
> To: xml...@li...
> Message-ID: <EB6...@pa...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
>
> On 07 ??? 2009, at 3:51 ??, Arno Puder wrote:
>
>>
>> I personally am absolutely fine to discuss this in public. For
>> "contribution" we don't just assume fees but also code
>> contributions. In
>> some cases this is difficult: is a 1000 line patch always more worth
>> than 100 lines? Certainly not. Does a one line patch to fix a bug
>> already qualify to grant the linking exception? I'm inclined to say
>> no.
>> But I'd be more than happy to get feedback from you guys on what you
>> consider to be a fair contribution in return for granting a linking
>> exception. As I said before, we want XMLVM to succeed. So, suggestions
>> please!
>>
>> Arno
>>
>
> Talking about myself, I believe that I am fluent in both Java and Obj-
> C languages.
> Still, not being stuck to a macintosh environment (although everywhere
> in my house and at work I have macs) AND being able to code in my
> favorite language is what caught my attention to this project.
>
> I had a look at the source code too and saw that it was quite clever
> what you've done. Well done!
>
> My idea was first to make sure that this project worths it and I
> probably use it in my future projects and then of course give back to
> whatever I did to improve this library.
> For example I was thinking about saving/loading (since I saw that this
> API is not supported yet).
> Or create some automatic scripts to make development of iphone/android
> applications with e.g. Netbeans a straight forward thing. Or have a
> look what it should be done so signing of applications will be as easy
> as with the xcode tool.
>
> That is what it crossed my mind, but first (as I said) I had to make
> sure that it worths it and I can really use it with my software.
>
> Don't get me wrong, after long discussions for example in other lists
> of other projects (which I prefer not to mention here, in public), I
> was sometimes disappointed by the people who own a project.
> Yes, it's their project. Yes, they've spent some time with it. Yes,
> they deserve some things back.
> But this doesn't give them the right to be arrogant  and not
> communicative.
>
> On the contrary, I can now clearly see that the core developers of
> this project are really communicative, helpful and willing to find
> solutions.
>
> So, in other words, I am convinced now.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 16:14:04 +0200
> From: Gergely Kis <ger...@ma...>
> Subject: Re: [xmlvm-users] Licence issues
> To: xml...@li...
> Message-ID:
> 	<2f9...@ma...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> 2009/10/7 Gergely Kis <ger...@ma...>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have a few thoughts (not terribly organized):
>> - it would be nice to have a commercial entity who owns the code legally.
>> Right now the CLAs have to be addressed to you (Arno Puder) personally.
>> This
>> could be a problem for potential contributor businesses.
>>
> Ok, I was wrong here. It just needs to be sent to your address, but
> addressed to XMLVM, which is not a legal entity as far as I know. So I think
> my point is still valid.
>
> Best Regards,
> Gergely
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 16:47:54 +0200
> From: Sascha Haeberling <sa...@xm...>
> Subject: Re: [xmlvm-users] Licence issues
> To: Gergely Kis <ger...@ma...>
> Cc: xml...@li...
> Message-ID:
> 	<709...@ma...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> This is actually a good point Gergely, thanks for mentioning it. So far we
> thought, if we write (C) XMLVM and then mention in a COPYING or LICENSE file
> who the people are that "own" XMLVM that should be enough. But I might be
> wrong and would like to figure this out. Do you think the only way to do
> this properly is to create a legal entity (like a company)?
> Maybe you have some pointers for us, that would be great.
>
> Thanks
> // Sascha
>
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Gergely Kis <ger...@ma...>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 2009/10/7 Gergely Kis <ger...@ma...>
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have a few thoughts (not terribly organized):
>>> - it would be nice to have a commercial entity who owns the code legally.
>>> Right now the CLAs have to be addressed to you (Arno Puder) personally.
>>> This
>>> could be a problem for potential contributor businesses.
>>>
>> Ok, I was wrong here. It just needs to be sent to your address, but
>> addressed to XMLVM, which is not a legal entity as far as I know. So I
>> think
>> my point is still valid.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Gergely
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmlvm-users mailing list
>> xml...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xmlvm-users
>>
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 16:04:57 +0200
> From: Gergely Kis <ger...@ma...>
> Subject: Re: [xmlvm-users] Licence issues
> To: xml...@li...
> Message-ID:
> 	<2f9...@ma...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi,
>
> I have a few thoughts (not terribly organized):
> - it would be nice to have a commercial entity who owns the code legally.
> Right now the CLAs have to be addressed to you (Arno Puder) personally. This
> could be a problem for potential contributor businesses.
> - It would be nice to have a commercial license for those who don't want or
> just can't contribute (e.g. no resources...etc.) There are many businesses
> who work like this. One in particular is ExtJS. I think that 2-300 USD /
> seat would be reasonable for a major release (including minor releases).
> Of course, this is only fair, if the product is reasonably complete, which
> it is not currently (at least for Android -> IPhone porting). It also
> assumes the notion of releases (major / minor releases, QA ... etc.)
>
> - Offering linking exception (a type of "commercial license") is both good
> and bad.
>
> It is good, because it allows contributors to use the project for commercial
> purposes.
>
> It is bad, because they need to give up their rights to their own
> contribution to do so. For example if someone creates killer feature X,
> contributes it and gets a linking exception. Then you commercialize the
> project and make much more revenue from killer feature X than the actual
> value of the linking exception license is. I know that you all are
> reasonable people, and would probably find a satisfying solution for all
> parties in cases like this.
> But having the rules set clear is a good thing.
>
> - It is not clear how long a "linking exception" is valid. Is it valid until
> 1.0? 2.0? Who decides when a linking exception expires? Should it expire?
>
> - The core developers have to decide whether they want to commercialize the
> project in the near future.
>
> - I think the bounty approach could help:
> - Missing features could be entered into a ticketing system (please don't
> start a ticket system bikeshed now :) )
> - People could offer bounties for features
> - One type of bounty is the linking exception
> - Other type of bounty is of course money
> - This way the price of the "commercial license" would be translated from
> code to money, which can be later the base for the real commercial license
> price
> - Those who pay for the bounties should also get the linking exception
> (based on some formula)
> - This system would allow users to hire the core team (or other
> contributors) to work on features that are important to them and willing to
> pay for.
> - There are many things that need to be thought out regarding this bounty
> system, this is just a quick brainstorming.
>
> Best Regards,
> Gergely
>
>
> 2009/10/7 Arno Puder <ar...@pu...>
>
>>
>> I personally am absolutely fine to discuss this in public. For
>> "contribution" we don't just assume fees but also code contributions. In
>> some cases this is difficult: is a 1000 line patch always more worth
>> than 100 lines? Certainly not. Does a one line patch to fix a bug
>> already qualify to grant the linking exception? I'm inclined to say no.
>> But I'd be more than happy to get feedback from you guys on what you
>> consider to be a fair contribution in return for granting a linking
>> exception. As I said before, we want XMLVM to succeed. So, suggestions
>> please!
>>
>> Arno
>>
>>
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
>
> ------------------------------
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> End of xmlvm-users Digest, Vol 4, Issue 7
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