webadmin-list

[webmin-l] Ramblings after reviewing the pole

[John H. <web...@ew...>]

I've been using Webmin for about 2 years now. I for the most part love 
it. I find Jamie's Managing Linux System with Webmin to be one of the 
best resouce books on my shelf. His terse explanations of any particular 
program, before going into how it interacts with the module has helped 
me "quickly" learn about 'new to me' applications. (Jamie.. maybe you 
should cut these sections out and create a 'Pocket Guide to Linux'! I 
don't need no more stinkin' 1500 page Linux manuals!) :) I must contest 
the 'Webmin' book stinks comment and this must be from someone with no 
grasp of Linux.. and the frustration is being dumped to Webmin.

I do however feel that Webmin and Virtualmin are geek tools for only 
geeks. Stick an end user in there and you'll have a mess to clean up. I 
have some pretty good end users, not Linux people, and none have the 
ability to safely deal with this interface. I'm not complaining about 
that, I simply no longer allow access to Webmin by any of our users.

One of the things I like the most about Webmin, is the very fact that it 
'is' geeky. Don't force automation on me.. If I wanted automation I 
would just put in Windows servers. I have never seen as a for instance, 
a single GUI that I liked for dealing with bind. I personally believe 
that if you are going to run bind and manage domains, you really need to 
get a good grip on it. I personally use a template to create my bind 
records in Webmin and always edit changes by hand... That's just me.. 
but what I'm getting at here, is Webmin gives me the ability to do that 
and in a lot of different areas. More automation, would just 'dumb it 
down' to the average Windows GUI which rarely gives the end user the 
ability to really understand what is going on and what is really being 
written to the system.

So, please leave Webmin and Virtualmin geeky! Yeah, perhaps more in the 
way of help on every page of each module would be helpful, if not for 
any other reason than to explain what this 'three word button' really 
does. Sometimes it is just a case of guessing the meaning, testing what 
happens to make sure what you think it means is really what it means. A 
quick for instance is 'Custom Fields' in Virtualmin. I must have missed 
the introduction to this on the list, I might have some good uses for 
it, but don't really know what I could do with it based on the 
information within Virtualmin. Please, don't take this as a request for 
an explanation due to this email... just one of those nice pop-up help 
files would go a long way in a lot of places.

Webmin has come a LONG ways in the last two years. At the same time, it 
has slowly gotten more complex. Many of my requests have been added and 
I've seen many others. I do hope that it doesn't get to the point where 
it's trying to do too much.

Just as I started out... I for the most part love it! Some of the things 
that it does have such extreme intelligence that I'm amazed! Webmin has 
also 'taught me' how to do many things that I could have spent hours or 
days learning and has taught me how to do some things using better 
methods. It really is fantastic.

Not long after I started using the Webmin systems, a rather quick review 
of Usermin left me with the feeling that this was more for an ISP and 
less for a Hosting provider. It looked to me like Virtualmin and a few 
of the Webmin modules left turned on for a user was sort of redundant 
vs. Usermin. And it sort of is. However, back to the above statement, 
Webmin is geeky and needs to stay geeky and 'my' users shouldn't be 
allowed in there. Something sparked me to take another look at Usermin 
the other day and what I found was rewarding... but not without concerns.

I had yet another user wanting to do an auto-reply... simple enough.. 
And these requests get really annoying after on again - off again - 
change my message mundane work. From Virtualmin the task is really 
geeky, go write a file, upload it to the server, call it from 
Virtualmin... heck, a lot of our users don't know how to FTP and rely on 
our developers to do all updates. Usermin is far superior in this 
ability. So, on this latest request for this feature the other day, I 
set up Usermin on the box containing that account and turned off just 
about everything except for most mail functions. Usermin is still just a 
bit too geeky for the Joe Average user out there but yet has the more 
simplified ability to do the tasks that most of us sysadmins are dealing 
with from day to day. Yeah, I could add some modules to Squirrelmail to 
do these things... yeah, I could find some other interface to do these 
things.. but darn, Usermin is so close.

I think Usermin needs to be looked at from the end user's perspective.. 
something extremely hard to do when you're so far ahead of Joe Average 
when doing the programming. The mail forwarding module is a good 
example. First the name on the button... 'Mail Forwarding and Replies'. 
Well, that really doesn't mention auto-replies? I know we have a big 
need to keep the names of these buttons as short as possible, but 
perhaps since we are already in the Mail area, "Forwarding and 
Auto-replies" would suffice?

After clicking on this button, Joe Average is faced with "Deliver 
Locally?" Yes, this should be clear, but they might just think this is 
going to send a copy via snail mail to their 'local mailbox' at the end 
of their driveway. And no, this is not far fetched! Then "Forward to 
other address?".. Heck, I'm not too sure what this actually does.. Does 
is forward all mail to another address, or does it also forward to 
another address while still delivering to your local mailbox (inbox)? 
And darn, there's no pop-up help file to get more information on this. 
"Send automatic reply?".. well, this part is actually pretty clear 
although it might should say "Yes, respond to all incoming messages with 
the following automatic reply..." "Minimum time between autoreplies". 
Hmmmmm.... this sounds really interesting... but I wonder just exactly 
what it does? Seems like this could be handy to perhaps prevent a mail 
loop? If I set this to 60 minutes, I would only get 24 loops per day 
instead of as fast as the two system can operate. But then if I set it 
to 60 minutes, is this the total for all incoming email or just any 
particular one? If it is for all incoming email, that would only allow 
24 auto-replies per day which wouldn't work for most situations... 
Hmmmmmm... And, backing down to Joe Average... very few even know what a 
mail loop is and that they should do things like unsubscribe to mailing 
list before setting this up.. or heck, go back out and create another 
email account just for mailing list.... And then there's "Complex" 
mode.. yeah... I could use this, no problem. Joe Average??? Whew!!! God 
knows what would be created. I haven't found a way yet to turn Complex 
mode off, but that would be a nice feature.

Again, please don't take this as a request to have 'Usermin' and 'Mail 
Forwarding and Replies' explained to me.... I'm trying to step back to 
the end user's perspective or level of understanding. I do try to teach 
our users just a little bit each time I talk with them.. Gee, I was even 
able to teach one the difference between MSIE and Outlook the other 
day!! Usermin will never be simple enough for him... but the interface 
could certainly be dumbed down a bit so that it really is a 
'Half-Computer-Literate-User'min program instead of a 
'Semi-Geeky-User'min interface. And then, if POP account 
creation/editing/deletion and email Alias creation/editing/deletion were 
in there, three quarters of my tech requests would be covered.

I don't know.. maybe a 'Mailmin' system should be considered versus 
trying to wrap this stuff into Usermin? Anyway, it seems that there is a 
request for ideas or possible direction for Webmin. This is by far the 
largest shortcoming we have on our systems at the moment.

Again, please don't try to tech any of my example issues... I simply 
grabbed some areas which were good as examples.

And as always, thanks so much for Webmin and all the hard work, as my 
life is already so much easier... I guess I've sort of forgotten how 
things used to be and really that three quarters of my tech work is a 
greater percentage today than it was two years ago because 
Webmin/Virtualmin is saving me hoards of time in the other geeky/admin 
areas... it's just this simple stuff that users 'should' be able to do 
themselves.

Best Regards,
John Hinton

Re: [webmin-l] Ramblings after reviewing the pole (poll / survey)

[Paul C. <pcu...@op...>]

John Hinton wrote:

> I've been using Webmin for about 2 years now. I for the most part love 
> it. I find Jamie's Managing Linux System with Webmin to be one of the 
> best resouce books on my shelf. His terse explanations of any particular 
> program, before going into how it interacts with the module has helped 
> me "quickly" learn about 'new to me' applications. (Jamie.. maybe you 
> should cut these sections out and create a 'Pocket Guide to Linux'! I 
> don't need no more stinkin' 1500 page Linux manuals!) :) I must contest 
> the 'Webmin' book stinks comment and this must be from someone with no 
> grasp of Linux.. and the frustration is being dumped to Webmin.
> 
> I do however feel that Webmin and Virtualmin are geek tools for only 
> geeks. Stick an end user in there and you'll have a mess to clean up. I 
> have some pretty good end users, not Linux people, and none have the 
> ability to safely deal with this interface. I'm not complaining about 
> that, I simply no longer allow access to Webmin by any of our users.
> 
> One of the things I like the most about Webmin, is the very fact that it 
> 'is' geeky. Don't force automation on me.. If I wanted automation I 
> would just put in Windows servers. 

It's the trade off between complexity and ease-of-use.  Slowly, over the 
years, designers are learning more about the issues.  Also, conventions 
are solving some of the problems.  Each domain needs its own "language', 
common idioms that evolve.  Word processors were geeky and we now use a 
language around that area and they are orders of magnitude easier to 
use.  Graphics programs are also getting there.  I recommend Jef 
Raskin's book "The Humane Interface" as one of the best reads in this area.

At OC and Curly Bracket Software, the aim is to first make sure that the 
product is doing the right job and then, to figure out the best way to 
do the job.  Good specs and design principles are the necessary part but 
not sufficient in getting a product right.  The sufficient part is 
understanding user experience and collecting feedback.  I visited 
Oracle's usability lab and learned a lot (including how to have tech 
ency :-) ).

The elephant in the room is, do we intend to "dumb down" Webmin i.e. 
make in windoze like?  I don't think so!

BTW, something upward from 500 million people are using windoze, so m$ 
is doing something right.

> I have never seen as a for instance, 
> a single GUI that I liked for dealing with bind. I personally believe 
> that if you are going to run bind and manage domains, you really need to 
> get a good grip on it. I personally use a template to create my bind 
> records in Webmin and always edit changes by hand... That's just me.. 
> but what I'm getting at here, is Webmin gives me the ability to do that 
> and in a lot of different areas. More automation, would just 'dumb it 
> down' to the average Windows GUI which rarely gives the end user the 
> ability to really understand what is going on and what is really being 
> written to the system.

Help and pull-down panels of the right choices might be an aid.  (Might 
not!)

> So, please leave Webmin and Virtualmin geeky! Yeah, perhaps more in the 
> way of help on every page of each module would be helpful, if not for 
> any other reason than to explain what this 'three word button' really 
> does. Sometimes it is just a case of guessing the meaning, testing what 
> happens to make sure what you think it means is really what it means. A 
> quick for instance is 'Custom Fields' in Virtualmin. I must have missed 
> the introduction to this on the list, I might have some good uses for 
> it, but don't really know what I could do with it based on the 
> information within Virtualmin. Please, don't take this as a request for 
> an explanation due to this email... just one of those nice pop-up help 
> files would go a long way in a lot of places.

That's why I want a usability lab of some sort.  Maybe we need a kind of 
experimental release program to try ideas like the above.

> Webmin has come a LONG ways in the last two years. At the same time, it 
> has slowly gotten more complex. Many of my requests have been added and 
> I've seen many others. I do hope that it doesn't get to the point where 
> it's trying to do too much.

Many of my suggestions (from my days as an analyst at Dataquest) ended 
up in m$ wurd.  I don't know if I should say, "I'm proud!" or "Guilty!" 
:-)  I do think that navigation and finding what's needed are real 
issues in anything that has 105 standard modules and another 225 or so 
add-in modules.

> Just as I started out... I for the most part love it! Some of the things 
> that it does have such extreme intelligence that I'm amazed! Webmin has 
> also 'taught me' how to do many things that I could have spent hours or 
> days learning and has taught me how to do some things using better 
> methods. It really is fantastic.
> 
> Not long after I started using the Webmin systems, a rather quick review 
> of Usermin left me with the feeling that this was more for an ISP and 
> less for a Hosting provider. It looked to me like Virtualmin and a few 
> of the Webmin modules left turned on for a user was sort of redundant 
> vs. Usermin. And it sort of is. However, back to the above statement, 
> Webmin is geeky and needs to stay geeky and 'my' users shouldn't be 
> allowed in there. Something sparked me to take another look at Usermin 
> the other day and what I found was rewarding... but not without concerns.
> 
> I had yet another user wanting to do an auto-reply... simple enough.. 
> And these requests get really annoying after on again - off again - 
> change my message mundane work. From Virtualmin the task is really 
> geeky, go write a file, upload it to the server, call it from 
> Virtualmin... heck, a lot of our users don't know how to FTP and rely on 
> our developers to do all updates. Usermin is far superior in this 
> ability. So, on this latest request for this feature the other day, I 
> set up Usermin on the box containing that account and turned off just 
> about everything except for most mail functions. Usermin is still just a 
> bit too geeky for the Joe Average user out there but yet has the more 
> simplified ability to do the tasks that most of us sysadmins are dealing 
> with from day to day. Yeah, I could add some modules to Squirrelmail to 
> do these things... yeah, I could find some other interface to do these 
> things.. but darn, Usermin is so close.
> 
> I think Usermin needs to be looked at from the end user's perspective.. 
> something extremely hard to do when you're so far ahead of Joe Average 
> when doing the programming. The mail forwarding module is a good 
> example. First the name on the button... 'Mail Forwarding and Replies'. 
> Well, that really doesn't mention auto-replies? I know we have a big 
> need to keep the names of these buttons as short as possible, but 
> perhaps since we are already in the Mail area, "Forwarding and 
> Auto-replies" would suffice?
> 
> After clicking on this button, Joe Average is faced with "Deliver 
> Locally?" Yes, this should be clear, but they might just think this is 
> going to send a copy via snail mail to their 'local mailbox' at the end 
> of their driveway. And no, this is not far fetched! Then "Forward to 
> other address?".. Heck, I'm not too sure what this actually does.. Does 
> is forward all mail to another address, or does it also forward to 
> another address while still delivering to your local mailbox (inbox)? 
> And darn, there's no pop-up help file to get more information on this. 
> "Send automatic reply?".. well, this part is actually pretty clear 
> although it might should say "Yes, respond to all incoming messages with 
> the following automatic reply..." "Minimum time between autoreplies". 
> Hmmmmm.... this sounds really interesting... but I wonder just exactly 
> what it does? Seems like this could be handy to perhaps prevent a mail 
> loop? If I set this to 60 minutes, I would only get 24 loops per day 
> instead of as fast as the two system can operate. But then if I set it 
> to 60 minutes, is this the total for all incoming email or just any 
> particular one? If it is for all incoming email, that would only allow 
> 24 auto-replies per day which wouldn't work for most situations... 
> Hmmmmmm... And, backing down to Joe Average... very few even know what a 
> mail loop is and that they should do things like unsubscribe to mailing 
> list before setting this up.. or heck, go back out and create another 
> email account just for mailing list.... And then there's "Complex" 
> mode.. yeah... I could use this, no problem. Joe Average??? Whew!!! God 
> knows what would be created. I haven't found a way yet to turn Complex 
> mode off, but that would be a nice feature.
> 
> Again, please don't take this as a request to have 'Usermin' and 'Mail 
> Forwarding and Replies' explained to me.... I'm trying to step back to 
> the end user's perspective or level of understanding. I do try to teach 
> our users just a little bit each time I talk with them.. Gee, I was even 
> able to teach one the difference between MSIE and Outlook the other 
> day!! Usermin will never be simple enough for him... but the interface 
> could certainly be dumbed down a bit so that it really is a 
> 'Half-Computer-Literate-User'min program instead of a 
> 'Semi-Geeky-User'min interface. And then, if POP account 
> creation/editing/deletion and email Alias creation/editing/deletion were 
> in there, three quarters of my tech requests would be covered.
> 
> I don't know.. maybe a 'Mailmin' system should be considered versus 
> trying to wrap this stuff into Usermin? Anyway, it seems that there is a 
> request for ideas or possible direction for Webmin. This is by far the 
> largest shortcoming we have on our systems at the moment.
> 

Hmmm, interesting!

> Again, please don't try to tech any of my example issues... I simply 
> grabbed some areas which were good as examples.
> 
> And as always, thanks so much for Webmin and all the hard work, as my 
> life is already so much easier... I guess I've sort of forgotten how 
> things used to be and really that three quarters of my tech work is a 
> greater percentage today than it was two years ago because 
> Webmin/Virtualmin is saving me hoards of time in the other geeky/admin 
> areas... it's just this simple stuff that users 'should' be able to do 
> themselves.
> 
> Best Regards,
> John Hinton
> 

Thanks again for the thoughtful input John!  Now (Jamie and) I have to 
figure out what to do with it!!

Paul Cubbage
Evangelist
Open Country, Inc.
http://www.opencountry.com/
http://www.opencountry.com/webmin/

> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log 
> files
> for problems?  Stop!  Download the new AJAX search engine that makes
> searching your log files as easy as surfing the  web.  DOWNLOAD SPLUNK!
> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click
> -
> Forwarded by the Webmin mailing list at web...@li...
> To remove yourself from this list, go to
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webadmin-list
> 
> !DSPAM:439b1377299195028410288!
> 

Re: [webmin-l] Ramblings after reviewing the pole (poll / survey)

[Terry A. <hm...@oz...>]

>
>BTW, something upward from 500 million people are using windoze, so 
>m$ is doing something right.
>
Hi again,
	I highly suspect that it has much more to do with marketing 
than doing it right in most instances. While Windows XP is a vastly 
better OS than it's predecessors & has some nice features, it's still 
not an OS that I would recommend.
	I think any *nix variant is vastly better - with the addition 
of Webmin on that OS, server admins have a great tool. Webmin & it's 
cousins are excellent & can certainly ease the extended time & pain 
of certain tasks.
-- 

	Bye for now, Terry Allen 
	___________________________________________________________________
hEARd

Postal Address:
	hEARd, 26B Glenning Rd,	Glenning Valley, NSW 2261, Australia
Internet -
	WWW: http://heard.com.au http://itavservices.com
EMAIL: hm...@oz...
Phone: Australia - 02 4388 1400 / International - + 61 2 43881400
Mobile: Australia - 04 28881400 / International - 61 4 28881400
-----------------------------------------------
Non profit promotion for new music - since 1994
-----------------------------------------------

Re: [webmin-l] Ramblings after reviewing the pole

[Jamie C. <jca...@we...>]

On Sun, 2005-12-11 at 04:40, John Hinton wrote:
> I've been using Webmin for about 2 years now. I for the most part love 
> it. I find Jamie's Managing Linux System with Webmin to be one of the 
> best resouce books on my shelf. His terse explanations of any particular 
> program, before going into how it interacts with the module has helped 
> me "quickly" learn about 'new to me' applications. (Jamie.. maybe you 
> should cut these sections out and create a 'Pocket Guide to Linux'! I 
> don't need no more stinkin' 1500 page Linux manuals!) :) I must contest 
> the 'Webmin' book stinks comment and this must be from someone with no 
> grasp of Linux.. and the frustration is being dumped to Webmin.
> 
> I do however feel that Webmin and Virtualmin are geek tools for only 
> geeks. Stick an end user in there and you'll have a mess to clean up. I 
> have some pretty good end users, not Linux people, and none have the 
> ability to safely deal with this interface. I'm not complaining about 
> that, I simply no longer allow access to Webmin by any of our users.
> 
> One of the things I like the most about Webmin, is the very fact that it 
> 'is' geeky. Don't force automation on me.. If I wanted automation I 
> would just put in Windows servers. I have never seen as a for instance, 
> a single GUI that I liked for dealing with bind. I personally believe 
> that if you are going to run bind and manage domains, you really need to 
> get a good grip on it. I personally use a template to create my bind 
> records in Webmin and always edit changes by hand... That's just me.. 
> but what I'm getting at here, is Webmin gives me the ability to do that 
> and in a lot of different areas. More automation, would just 'dumb it 
> down' to the average Windows GUI which rarely gives the end user the 
> ability to really understand what is going on and what is really being 
> written to the system.

Like Paul said, there is definately a trade-off between power and ease
of use. In Webmin I've generally tried to make all the functionality of
the underlying servers (Apache, sendmail ,etc..) configurable. However,
this leads to a quite complex user interface in some cases..

Personally though, that's the way I like it :) Also, this has the
advantage that Webmin will be able to parse and display any existing
configuration files that have been created manually..

> So, please leave Webmin and Virtualmin geeky! Yeah, perhaps more in the 
> way of help on every page of each module would be helpful, if not for 
> any other reason than to explain what this 'three word button' really 
> does. Sometimes it is just a case of guessing the meaning, testing what 
> happens to make sure what you think it means is really what it means. A 
> quick for instance is 'Custom Fields' in Virtualmin. I must have missed 
> the introduction to this on the list, I might have some good uses for 
> it, but don't really know what I could do with it based on the 
> information within Virtualmin. Please, don't take this as a request for 
> an explanation due to this email... just one of those nice pop-up help 
> files would go a long way in a lot of places.

The custom fields feature is just a way of being able to enter
additional information for virtual servers, such as the owner's address,
account number or whatever. I have to agree that it isn't too well
documented though :)

> Webmin has come a LONG ways in the last two years. At the same time, it 
> has slowly gotten more complex. Many of my requests have been added and 
> I've seen many others. I do hope that it doesn't get to the point where 
> it's trying to do too much.

Yeah, that is a risk .. fortunately though the modular design means that
you don't have to use or even see modules that aren't relevant for your system.

> Just as I started out... I for the most part love it! Some of the things 
> that it does have such extreme intelligence that I'm amazed! Webmin has 
> also 'taught me' how to do many things that I could have spent hours or 
> days learning and has taught me how to do some things using better 
> methods. It really is fantastic.

Thanks!

> Not long after I started using the Webmin systems, a rather quick review 
> of Usermin left me with the feeling that this was more for an ISP and 
> less for a Hosting provider. It looked to me like Virtualmin and a few 
> of the Webmin modules left turned on for a user was sort of redundant 
> vs. Usermin. And it sort of is. However, back to the above statement, 
> Webmin is geeky and needs to stay geeky and 'my' users shouldn't be 
> allowed in there. Something sparked me to take another look at Usermin 
> the other day and what I found was rewarding... but not without concerns.

It is really designed for non-admin users to perform tasks like reading
mail, changing their passwords, uploading files and so. It would
actually be possible to configure Webmin to do almost all the same
things, but with more effort..

> I had yet another user wanting to do an auto-reply... simple enough.. 
> And these requests get really annoying after on again - off again - 
> change my message mundane work. From Virtualmin the task is really 
> geeky, go write a file, upload it to the server, call it from 
> Virtualmin... heck, a lot of our users don't know how to FTP and rely on 
> our developers to do all updates. Usermin is far superior in this 
> ability. So, on this latest request for this feature the other day, I 
> set up Usermin on the box containing that account and turned off just 
> about everything except for most mail functions. Usermin is still just a 
> bit too geeky for the Joe Average user out there but yet has the more 
> simplified ability to do the tasks that most of us sysadmins are dealing 
> with from day to day. Yeah, I could add some modules to Squirrelmail to 
> do these things... yeah, I could find some other interface to do these 
> things.. but darn, Usermin is so close.
> 
> I think Usermin needs to be looked at from the end user's perspective.. 
> something extremely hard to do when you're so far ahead of Joe Average 
> when doing the programming. The mail forwarding module is a good 
> example. First the name on the button... 'Mail Forwarding and Replies'. 
> Well, that really doesn't mention auto-replies? I know we have a big 
> need to keep the names of these buttons as short as possible, but 
> perhaps since we are already in the Mail area, "Forwarding and 
> Auto-replies" would suffice?
> 
> After clicking on this button, Joe Average is faced with "Deliver 
> Locally?" Yes, this should be clear, but they might just think this is 
> going to send a copy via snail mail to their 'local mailbox' at the end 
> of their driveway. And no, this is not far fetched! Then "Forward to 
> other address?".. Heck, I'm not too sure what this actually does.. Does 
> is forward all mail to another address, or does it also forward to 
> another address while still delivering to your local mailbox (inbox)? 
> And darn, there's no pop-up help file to get more information on this. 
> "Send automatic reply?".. well, this part is actually pretty clear 
> although it might should say "Yes, respond to all incoming messages with 
> the following automatic reply..." "Minimum time between autoreplies". 
> Hmmmmm.... this sounds really interesting... but I wonder just exactly 
> what it does? Seems like this could be handy to perhaps prevent a mail 
> loop? If I set this to 60 minutes, I would only get 24 loops per day 
> instead of as fast as the two system can operate. But then if I set it 
> to 60 minutes, is this the total for all incoming email or just any 
> particular one? If it is for all incoming email, that would only allow 
> 24 auto-replies per day which wouldn't work for most situations... 
> Hmmmmmm... And, backing down to Joe Average... very few even know what a 
> mail loop is and that they should do things like unsubscribe to mailing 
> list before setting this up.. or heck, go back out and create another 
> email account just for mailing list.... And then there's "Complex" 
> mode.. yeah... I could use this, no problem. Joe Average??? Whew!!! God 
> knows what would be created. I haven't found a way yet to turn Complex 
> mode off, but that would be a nice feature.

Hmm .. it sounds like I need to add some popup help to that module. To
be honest, I have trouble thinking from the perspective of a
non-Unix-expert :)

 - Jamie

Re: [webmin-l] Ramblings after reviewing the pole

[John H. <web...@ew...>]

Jamie Cameron wrote:

>Hmm .. it sounds like I need to add some popup help to that module. To
>be honest, I have trouble thinking from the perspective of a
>non-Unix-expert :)
>
I just had to leave that comment there. ;) Yeah, you only have to deal with us dumb sysadmins that can't find what's right in front of them in the Webmin interface! We on the other hand, have to deal with the public who for the most part doesn't know the difference between POP, alias, incoming mail server and outgoing mail server.. and thinks 'email client' is a command not a program. "OK, I'll email that client of mine right away!"

Actually though, that is the bottom line. No pun intended.

And, in all fairness, I would really like very much to hear the 
reactions to my original post by other sysadmins using Webmin. I am in a 
unique niche myself which may be enough unlike what others are doing so 
that there is no justification to spend time on my wishes. Our clients 
are hosting clients, predominantly in the bed and breakfast industy. 
This means they are business owners, in a business that requires a high 
degree of specialty knowledge and many simply don't have the time to 
become proficient on computers. At the same time, bookings run at about 
80% directly from the internet with some reporting over 80% from online 
booking engines. Email is as important as water and electricity to these 
folks and equates to the person behind the cash register at a store. 
Many of them can make french toast to die for, or make the army turn 
green with envy when they bounce a dime off a properly made bed sheet.. 
but computers? So, yeah, I have to step back to view my ideas about 'how 
stuff should be', as I'm sure my opinions are somewhat biased by my 
clients as well. So, really, I do hope others will chime in with yes or 
no, that would help or not.

Again, with regards to Webmin, yeah, some additional help pop ups would 
be great, but I really don't see any of my users knowing what the heck 
to do within the Apache module. Well, I actually might have one, but he 
was a sysadmin in the past and got burned out. :) Hmm... maybe even two 
now that I think more.

I've looked at just about every module/package available and don't find 
anything that fully fits, or really even gets pretty close. When I went 
back in to look through Usermin again, I realized it was pretty close. 
Heck I even discovered that https://users_domain_name.com:20000 got them 
in! I never even thought to even try that until today. Now that's pretty 
neat! I don't have to look up which server they're on and give them one 
of my convoluted server names as the domain to visit. Easy for them to 
remember... And it is much easier to tune down Usermin vs. 
Webmin/Virtualmin. What I have left running in Usermin for my users at 
this point is

Change Language (might get used by a few of our clients and it's always 
good to be PC)
Mail Forwarding and Replies
Read Mail (great for clearing out that email that causes "My Outlook is 
stuck!" syndrone. Although a view oldest mail first switch would be 
nice. Yeah, the go to page ### works, but then an email comes in and 
interrupts the process and you're back on page one unless you figure out 
and then remember to use your back button)
Scheduled Emails (nothing like 'Elvis' sending you a message each month 
on the day sales tax is due.. or better yet, on your anniversary! This 
should bring back some memories for some of you old 'nixers!)
SpamAssassin Mail Filter (probably not a good idea.. but..... I'm trying 
it to find out.. another of those with no help and over the heads of 
most end users)
MySQL Database (well... who knows.. but for the ones that have it.. at 
least they can look at what they've created)
Disk Quotas (OH yeah.. hope they look at this... often!)
System Documentation (betcha none of them ever read any of this but you 
can't blame me for trying)

What is missing...
Add/edit/delete a POP account
Add/edit/delete an Alias

Now I know those are going to be tough without some tie back into 
Webmin/Virtualmin to get them into their virtual domain.. get the 
account tied to the domain name and still exist within the limits set in 
Virtualmin, like number of POP accounts and so forth. But what the 
heck.. I can wish!!! It's almost Christmas isn't it?

And....
And the dumbed down interface that 'anyone can understand' or at least 
almost anyone.
The hardest task is to keep it simple... or make it simple. Many times 
I've started a simple easy to navigate website and it grew.. and then it 
became complex.. and it was no problem at all to navigate... but only 
for those that built the darned thing.. Somewhere along the line the new 
visitor's view became confusing, they were lost and left.. This scenario 
seems to be the natural order.. and one has to interrupt the natural 
order to get it back to a simple and easy to follow flow.

So, come on you others on the list... What's your thoughts on what I've 
said? Is there reasonable need for these things or am I just off in left 
field here? I can take it.. I am left handed even. Am I the only one out 
there that would like to have these tools?

Thanks to both Paul and Jamie for your open minded attitudes.

Best,
John Hinton

Re: [webmin-l] Ramblings after reviewing the pole

[Jamie C. <jca...@we...>]

On Sun, 2005-12-11 at 15:59, John Hinton wrote:
> Jamie Cameron wrote:
> 
> >Hmm .. it sounds like I need to add some popup help to that module. To
> >be honest, I have trouble thinking from the perspective of a
> >non-Unix-expert :)
> >
> I just had to leave that comment there. ;) Yeah, you only have to deal with us dumb sysadmins that can't find what's right in front of them in the Webmin interface! We on the other hand, have to deal with the public who for the most part doesn't know the difference between POP, alias, incoming mail server and outgoing mail server.. and thinks 'email client' is a command not a program. "OK, I'll email that client of mine right away!"

Yeah, that is part of the problem .. most of the webmin users I deal
with are at least moderately knowledgeable sysadmins, so it is hard for
me to get a feel for what non-computer types want (no offence meant to
them :-)

> Actually though, that is the bottom line. No pun intended.
> 
> And, in all fairness, I would really like very much to hear the 
> reactions to my original post by other sysadmins using Webmin. I am in a 
> unique niche myself which may be enough unlike what others are doing so 
> that there is no justification to spend time on my wishes. Our clients 
> are hosting clients, predominantly in the bed and breakfast industy. 
> This means they are business owners, in a business that requires a high 
> degree of specialty knowledge and many simply don't have the time to 
> become proficient on computers. At the same time, bookings run at about 
> 80% directly from the internet with some reporting over 80% from online 
> booking engines. Email is as important as water and electricity to these 
> folks and equates to the person behind the cash register at a store. 
> Many of them can make french toast to die for, or make the army turn 
> green with envy when they bounce a dime off a properly made bed sheet.. 
> but computers? So, yeah, I have to step back to view my ideas about 'how 
> stuff should be', as I'm sure my opinions are somewhat biased by my 
> clients as well. So, really, I do hope others will chime in with yes or 
> no, that would help or not.
> 
> Again, with regards to Webmin, yeah, some additional help pop ups would 
> be great, but I really don't see any of my users knowing what the heck 
> to do within the Apache module. Well, I actually might have one, but he 
> was a sysadmin in the past and got burned out. :) Hmm... maybe even two 
> now that I think more.

It may be best to simply not let them have access to the Apache module
at all, as 99% of users won't need to configure their own Apache
settings. In a virtual hosting environment, all most users need is the
ability to edit mailboxes and aliases, both of which can be done through
Virtualmin .. so pretty much all of the other modules can be turned off.

 - Jamie

Re: [webmin-l] Ramblings after reviewing the pole

[Unknown Q. <web...@un...>]

further to John Hinton's original post and request for info about what other 
people do with Webmin ......

i've been using Webmin for just over 2 years to host about 400 domains i've 
set-up with Virtualmin (move away from Ensim panel after finding too many 
restrictions)

i'm a web designer - not an engineer - and i only have the faintest grasp of 
how to do a few things at the command line

i find Virtualmin does most of what i want and Webmin deals with other 
things like MySQL & Bind

i run each domain on 2 different servers in 2 different data centres via a 
failover system (set-up by somebody else that really knew what they were 
doing)

i sell a service to my customers that allows then to deal with their own 
business whilst we deal with their websites updates and e-mail settings

the only 2 things i'd like my customers to be able to do easily are

1 = set-up an out-of office / vacation autoresponder

2 = be able to temporarily send a *copy* of their e-mails to somebody else 
whilst they are on holiday

at the moment i use WebMail to do No. 1 - but even then customers are 
frightened by it's complexity!!!

the last thing i want is for my customers to go anywhere near Virtualmin as 
they would just do too much damage too easily - they don't even get FTP 
access from us

i not sure if Usermin with do either or both of these for me, because last 
time i looked at it the vacation programme kept clashing with SquirrelMail 
(previous servers) so i turned it off

what i'd really like from Webmin / Virtualmin / Usermin is an idiots' 
set-by-step guide to every component *~*

yes i've bought & read (many times) the brown Webmin book - each time i've 
either understood or confused myself a little bit more :-)

the info about Virtualmin on http://www.webmin.com/index8.html doesn't 
really give a newbie much hope of configuring the system 1st time - the 
screen shots and options are too many versions ago

i'd go for Virtualmin Pro but it doesn't do Debian yet

*~* Barry Caplan says in the next posting to the effect that Cobalt didn't 
quite get its easy / idiots guides in place even though they identified it 
as a major requirement

it would be great if OpenCountry / Virtualmin could produce an up-to-date 
step-by-step guide for each function

the reoccurring requests to this list for help setting up mail accounts / 
aliases must surely have made somebody realise that there is a need for a 
good getting started / out of the box instruction set for the common server 
requirements

i realise that Jamie & Joe have forgotten more that i could even want to 
learn about the whole project - but if you want me to give you an idiots 
(non-Unix-expert) view as to how easy / complicated your help files are i'd 
be more that willing to help out

what i like about the whole project is that it allows me to choose and use 
the functionality that i require and doesn't force me to do it some control 
panel's way - keep up the great work guys

Regards

Martyn




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jamie Cameron" <jca...@we...>
To: <web...@li...>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: [webmin-l] Ramblings after reviewing the pole


> On Sun, 2005-12-11 at 15:59, John Hinton wrote:
>> Jamie Cameron wrote:
>>
>> >Hmm .. it sounds like I need to add some popup help to that module. To
>> >be honest, I have trouble thinking from the perspective of a
>> >non-Unix-expert :)
>> >
>> I just had to leave that comment there. ;) Yeah, you only have to deal 
>> with us dumb sysadmins that can't find what's right in front of them in 
>> the Webmin interface! We on the other hand, have to deal with the public 
>> who for the most part doesn't know the difference between POP, alias, 
>> incoming mail server and outgoing mail server.. and thinks 'email client' 
>> is a command not a program. "OK, I'll email that client of mine right 
>> away!"
>
> Yeah, that is part of the problem .. most of the webmin users I deal
> with are at least moderately knowledgeable sysadmins, so it is hard for
> me to get a feel for what non-computer types want (no offence meant to
> them :-)
>
>> Actually though, that is the bottom line. No pun intended.
>>
>> And, in all fairness, I would really like very much to hear the
>> reactions to my original post by other sysadmins using Webmin. I am in a
>> unique niche myself which may be enough unlike what others are doing so
>> that there is no justification to spend time on my wishes. Our clients
>> are hosting clients, predominantly in the bed and breakfast industy.
>> This means they are business owners, in a business that requires a high
>> degree of specialty knowledge and many simply don't have the time to
>> become proficient on computers. At the same time, bookings run at about
>> 80% directly from the internet with some reporting over 80% from online
>> booking engines. Email is as important as water and electricity to these
>> folks and equates to the person behind the cash register at a store.
>> Many of them can make french toast to die for, or make the army turn
>> green with envy when they bounce a dime off a properly made bed sheet..
>> but computers? So, yeah, I have to step back to view my ideas about 'how
>> stuff should be', as I'm sure my opinions are somewhat biased by my
>> clients as well. So, really, I do hope others will chime in with yes or
>> no, that would help or not.
>>
>> Again, with regards to Webmin, yeah, some additional help pop ups would
>> be great, but I really don't see any of my users knowing what the heck
>> to do within the Apache module. Well, I actually might have one, but he
>> was a sysadmin in the past and got burned out. :) Hmm... maybe even two
>> now that I think more.
>
> It may be best to simply not let them have access to the Apache module
> at all, as 99% of users won't need to configure their own Apache
> settings. In a virtual hosting environment, all most users need is the
> ability to edit mailboxes and aliases, both of which can be done through
> Virtualmin .. so pretty much all of the other modules can be turned off.
>
> - Jamie
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log 
> files
> for problems?  Stop!  Download the new AJAX search engine that makes
> searching your log files as easy as surfing the  web.  DOWNLOAD SPLUNK!
> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click
> -
> Forwarded by the Webmin mailing list at 
> web...@li...
> To remove yourself from this list, go to
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webadmin-list
> 

Re: [webmin-l] Ramblings after reviewing the pole

[Barry <we...@i1...>]

Unknown Questions wrote:

>
> *~* Barry Caplan says in the next posting to the effect that Cobalt 
> didn't quite get its easy / idiots guides in place even though they 
> identified it as a major requirement


Actually, I meant Cobalt didn't complete its mission of creating a large 
line of server appliances, each of which could integrate with the others 
in some unifying fashion. I am sure the documentation was never quite 
complete either, but I was thinking larger then that...and frankly, our 
driving principle in the UI was that since no one was really going to 
RTFM anyway, everything should *just work* and they shouldn't need to RTFM.


To make something really simple requires a really deep understanding of 
user needs and patterns, and information architecture, in order to match 
it to the system at hand. Frankly, there is no real reason, for task 
oriented approaches, that the user needs to know about system level 
stuff at all.

It actually could be quite liberating to design a product that way - 
treat the systems already there as a core part of the overall system, 
but not the system itself. Let the system include, and even be driven 
by, parts that are closer to the end user.

one thing I think was subtle and not really realized by many folks in 
the marketplace was that at Cobalt we never really marketed ourself as a 
Linux company even though we were arguable the most successful Linux 
company of all.

Instead, we marketed ourselves as a solutions company, and the problems 
we were offering solutions to were couched in terms closer to the end 
user's point of view, and not Linux specific at all. That we chose Linux 
toimplement the solutions was a great decision, but we could have done 
the same thing using some other *Nix, or even Windows. We didn't want 
our customers to have to know what was under the hood anymore then (fill 
in your favorite auto manufacturer) wants its customers to know how to 
build a car or keep it tuned up, or worse, manufacture the actual metals 
form ores.

We felt the much bigger market was going to expect and even demand that, 
even though the Linux sysadmins were our early adopters and very visible.

Yet Webmin sometimes feels as though the limited sysadmin market is the 
*only* market it is aiming for, and that is to its detriment. Many parts 
of it come off feeling like the equivalent of having to learn how to 
smelt ore to build your own steel when all you want to do is drive a new 
car. If cars came that way, then very few of us would have cars, and 
frankly, far fewer webmin users exist then could if this was done with a 
different approach...

IMHO.

Best, Barry

Re: [webmin-l] Ramblings after reviewing the pole

[Barry <we...@i1...>]

John Hinton wrote:

> Jamie Cameron wrote:
>
>> Hmm .. it sounds like I need to add some popup help to that module. To
>> be honest, I have trouble thinking from the perspective of a
>> non-Unix-expert :)
>>
> I just had to leave that comment there. ;) Yeah, you only have to deal 
> with us dumb sysadmins that can't find what's right in front of them 
> in the Webmin interface! We on the other hand, have to deal with the 
> public who for the most part doesn't know the difference between POP, 
> alias, incoming mail server and outgoing mail server.. and thinks 
> 'email client' is a command not a program. "OK, I'll email that client 
> of mine right away!"



My 2 cents:

O have mentioned here before and will mention again that I was one f the 
early employees/managers at Cobalt Networks.

We wrestled with the same issues every day back in the early dot com era 
when we needed web based software to support our Linux server appliances.

I am not saying that I would either architect that systems the same way 
today, nor would I make the UI exactly the same, so let's keep that in mind.

But from a marketing perspective, like most wildly successful startups, 
had a laser focus on who our users were and what the tasks they were 
trying to accomplish were.

At the top line, all our products were designed so they could be fully 
functioning 5 minutes out of the box. In most cases, as I recall, the 
only typing that was required was to enter an Admin password. You had to 
set an IP address from buttons on the box, and that was pretty much it.

Beyond that, the focus was on specific tasks, and tying them together in 
some coherent interface.

We identified several distinct groups, roughly as I recall:

- end user home networking (the Cobalt Qube product line).
- the ISP. (Cobalt Raq) I think Cobalt payed a large role in the growth 
of Mom and Pop ISPs, and as a result played a large role in enabling the 
low price monthly hosting model. Think back to 1997, and 1998 and lots 
of people with minimal technical skills were able to deploy Raqs out of 
the box and then provision hosted web sites with all the features of the 
day: mail, web, ftp, dns, and so on...
- the sysadmin: As we had customers with more and more Raqs installed 
(1000s?) there grew a class of more sophisticated admins, and they 
needed to be able to manage their boxes from a single interface.


there were other product lines, and many others that were identified, 
test marketed, and even prototyped but never saw the light of day.

My point to Paul and Jamie is to identify users, the tasks they need to 
do most often, and to design products around those needs, while keeping 
the flexibility. Ultimately, this is more of a marketing task than a 
technical task.

One way to gather some data, aside from the polls, is to build a version 
of webmin that is instrumented somehow, and reports back to you (at a 
certain level of abstraction) what real people are doing. Call this a 
beta program if you will, but let people opt in after explaining to them 
the way the data will be collected and used (and not used :). Give them 
something in return and I am sure you will get some good info.

>
> Actually though, that is the bottom line. No pun intended.
>
> And, in all fairness, I would really like very much to hear the 
> reactions to my original post by other sysadmins using Webmin. I am in 
> a unique niche myself which may be enough unlike what others are doing 
> so that there is no justification to spend time on my wishes. Our 
> clients are hosting clients, predominantly in the bed and breakfast 
> industy. This means they are business owners, in a business that 
> requires a high degree of specialty knowledge and many simply don't 
> have the time to become proficient on computers. At the same time, 
> bookings run at about 80% directly from the internet with some 
> reporting over 80% from online booking engines. Email is as important 
> as water and electricity to these folks and equates to the person 
> behind the cash register at a store. Many of them can make french 
> toast to die for, or make the army turn green with envy when they 
> bounce a dime off a properly made bed sheet.. but computers? So, yeah, 
> I have to step back to view my ideas about 'how stuff should be', as 
> I'm sure my opinions are somewhat biased by my clients as well. So, 
> really, I do hope others will chime in with yes or no, that would help 
> or not.


That is precisely the type of customer we had on our target list at 
Cobalt. We wanted the boxes to be as functional (and as good looking) as 
a routine kitchen appliance. I wish Webmin had the same kind of 
attitude...I notice Paul mentioned a great book about UI, I recommend to 
him the work on "personas" that started with Alan Cooper in his books 
and is now more pervasive in the UI area ...

>
> Again, with regards to Webmin, yeah, some additional help pop ups 
> would be great, but I really don't see any of my users knowing what 
> the heck to do within the Apache module. Well, I actually might have 
> one, but he was a sysadmin in the past and got burned out. :) Hmm... 
> maybe even two now that I think more.


Frankly, I agree with John here, and have kicked around the idea of 
incorporating the Cobalt approach at the user with the underlying 
functionality of Webmin. Any potential sponsors out there?

>
> I've looked at just about every module/package available and don't 
> find anything that fully fits, or really even gets pretty close. When 
> I went back in to look through Usermin again, I realized it was pretty 
> close. Heck I even discovered that https://users_domain_name.com:20000 
> got them in! I never even thought to even try that until today. Now 
> that's pretty neat! I don't have to look up which server they're on 
> and give them one of my convoluted server names as the domain to 
> visit. Easy for them to remember... And it is much easier to tune down 
> Usermin vs. Webmin/Virtualmin. What I have left running in Usermin for 
> my users at this point is
>
> Change Language (might get used by a few of our clients and it's 
> always good to be PC)
> Mail Forwarding and Replies
> Read Mail (great for clearing out that email that causes "My Outlook 
> is stuck!" syndrone. Although a view oldest mail first switch would be 
> nice. Yeah, the go to page ### works, but then an email comes in and 
> interrupts the process and you're back on page one unless you figure 
> out and then remember to use your back button)
> Scheduled Emails (nothing like 'Elvis' sending you a message each 
> month on the day sales tax is due.. or better yet, on your 
> anniversary! This should bring back some memories for some of you old 
> 'nixers!)
> SpamAssassin Mail Filter (probably not a good idea.. but..... I'm 
> trying it to find out.. another of those with no help and over the 
> heads of most end users)
> MySQL Database (well... who knows.. but for the ones that have it.. at 
> least they can look at what they've created)
> Disk Quotas (OH yeah.. hope they look at this... often!)
> System Documentation (betcha none of them ever read any of this but 
> you can't blame me for trying)
>
> What is missing...
> Add/edit/delete a POP account
> Add/edit/delete an Alias
>
> Now I know those are going to be tough without some tie back into 
> Webmin/Virtualmin to get them into their virtual domain.. get the 
> account tied to the domain name and still exist within the limits set 
> in Virtualmin, like number of POP accounts and so forth. But what the 
> heck.. I can wish!!! It's almost Christmas isn't it?
>
> And....
> And the dumbed down interface that 'anyone can understand' or at least 
> almost anyone.
> The hardest task is to keep it simple... or make it simple. Many times 
> I've started a simple easy to navigate website and it grew.. and then 
> it became complex.. and it was no problem at all to navigate... but 
> only for those that built the darned thing.. Somewhere along the line 
> the new visitor's view became confusing, they were lost and left.. 
> This scenario seems to be the natural order.. and one has to interrupt 
> the natural order to get it back to a simple and easy to follow flow.


Again, to go back to the Cobalt example, internally we had people with 
conflicting responsibilities that had to compromise on the final 
product. But with the laser focus on user *tasks* and a keen eye for 
creeping features and creeping UI, we were not engineer driven at the 
feature level, even though we had an army of Jamies. The engineers were 
fully involved, don't get me wrong, but they all bought into the notion 
of the appliance itself - that was built into the corporate culture.

>
> So, come on you others on the list... What's your thoughts on what 
> I've said? Is there reasonable need for these things or am I just off 
> in left field here? I can take it.. I am left handed even. Am I the 
> only one out there that would like to have these tools?


No, not in left field, and I am right handed. I want them, I *know* 
others want and need them, because I know that Cobalt did not finish its 
job, and now the net is just that much bigger....

>
> Thanks to both Paul and Jamie for your open minded attitudes.


Likewise. I use Webmin all the time on many servers, and that is great, 
but I also look at it every single time with the above thoughts and 
background in mind, and I find lots of room for enhancements in the 
approach and experience...

Best,

Barry Caplan